Epic Games China!!?? lets support communism?
polycounter lvl 18
Just thought you guys should know.
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=10971
Im a huge fan of Epic games but this is a real dissappointment. I posted this on the official epic ut2007 forums and they deleted it!! They obviously dont want the average gamer to know about their buisness practices and outsourcing with one of the biggest human rights violators.
I mean come on Epic theyre Communists. I saw the Chinese military executing Tiawanese civilians they caught. And Epic is doing buisness with these people. Very dissappointing. What do you guys think?
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=10971
Im a huge fan of Epic games but this is a real dissappointment. I posted this on the official epic ut2007 forums and they deleted it!! They obviously dont want the average gamer to know about their buisness practices and outsourcing with one of the biggest human rights violators.
I mean come on Epic theyre Communists. I saw the Chinese military executing Tiawanese civilians they caught. And Epic is doing buisness with these people. Very dissappointing. What do you guys think?
This discussion has been closed.
Replies
then you've probably done business with china, too
edit: as for this particular instance... sure it sucks they're outsourcing to a place where they dont have to pay the workers as much... but we've all seen this coming. That's what happens when gamers expect 10x the content at 1x the price.
To recap my position.
-Outsourcing is inevitable at some level with the economic system of a corporate bottom line structure.
-It does not guarantee the same level of quality (nor does it say it cant be beyond under certain circumstances).
-It also does not mean another artist is loosing there job (yet) as the industry is still growing. However, in another 5 or 10???
As for the morality side, I agree with you. All you can do is try to minimize the injustice. So finding out about the working conditions and such of the company can maybe in part provide a choice where otherwise non exist. However, many times companies purposely obscure this information.
Edit:
-Communism is a scared word that really does not signify what it once meant. What you mean to say, its a authoritarian government.
Relative to the way we live in the US, UK, Canada, etc. it probably seems like hell, but they don't live in the US -- they're in China. What's hell to you is just normal, everyday life to them. They could ask more, but do most of them want to? If so, what's stopping them? Fear?
In other news, Feng Zhu just opened up a studio in China.
If so, what's stopping them? Fear?
[/ QUOTE ]
Now that you mention it Noel, yes...
PS, it is also evil to hire them.
K thx
theyre Communists.
[/ QUOTE ]
So?
To many people, we're the EVIL capitalist America coming to eat your infants. Can't you just realize it takes all types of people, with all types of different ideals to make the world work?
Stand back for a second, and possibly pull your head out of your ass, and look at the REAL world for a second, and how it REALLY works. What you said isn't an ideal, its just discrimination. Grow up.
To many people, we're the EVIL capitalist America coming to eat your infants.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm certainly coming to eat your infants, but that's a whole 'nother story.
With a quarter of the worlds population and an economic growth rate approaching 10% a year, China has become the new business El Dorado.
-Alan Murray
wall street journal columnist
If you're going to judge, research! ^.^
I didnt say all chinese are evil. And I didnt say anything that wasnt fact. Tell me what I said that was untrue. And stick to the specific comments I made. And yes I know how the world works. My head is not up my ass and I am not a biggot. I was merely stating my dissapointment that Epic has jumped on the outsourcing wagon with a country whose GOVERNMENT is immoral. Maybe I came on a little strong. But there is no need to insult me about this. I just wanted to bring this to everyones attention. I know how buisness works and your comments about me not knowing how the world works are unfounded and you were basically assuming this. Calm down please. I just dont think American companies should support a dangerous government's economy. Thats all I meant. Maybe with people like you I need to write a full f*!@ing essay on the subject as you leap to conclusions.
Edit: I relize we are viewed by some countries as evil, but we dont execute civilians, well some get hit by stray bombs by us. To clear this up I dont like their government. It has nothing to do with their people. But!! you jump to conclusions and think I hate Chinese people. Im not going to insult you like you did me. Maybe your the one who need to mature a bit. I wish the best for all new employees at Epic Games China.
(off topic)
Hey guys, see armagons comments above and what I mentioned earlier about too many ASSumptions
My head is not up my ass...
...we dont execute civilians...
[/ QUOTE ]
I think those statements are proof enough that assuming you "don't know how the world works" is not unfounded.
I guess your government also doesn't detain and torture people without trials, or invade countries based on lies, or sell weapons to people that you know are "terrorists" just because the people they are terrorizing are ones you dislike.
By your standards, everyone should be disgusted to work with the US. Think about that the next time you go spouting on about China. There's just as much evil at home than overseas.
"By your standards, everyone should be disgusted to work with the US." what are you talking about? Im talking about my dissappointment with Epic for outsourcing which I think hurts Americans in the long run. Just my personal belief. Only my opinion. The history of Communism is pretty dark. We may do some morally questionable things in America. Ill put America as the more noble country over China any day. And lets please stick to the origional topic and not bring current politics into this. I know you hate President Bush. And I mean we dont execute civilians based on the sole fact they are from another country. Our Navy is over there protecting Taiwan (because we are soooo evil right) I saw a video where the Chinese military caught some Taiwan citezens and executed them for the sole reason that they were from Taiwan. So if we are as evil why arent we executing Hispanics crossing the border? That would be the equivlant of what the Chinese military did to these people in this video. Now to be very specific!!! I dont think we should execute Hispanics okay. Since so many of my comments have been taken out of context. You chose a snippet of what I said and molded it into what you wanted to say. Which was Bush is evil I dont like what we are doing in Iraq or how we detain enemy combatants. Good for you you got it out. You seem to be one of those blame America first people while Im at the other end of the spectrum. Yes nasty things have to be done in war.
Screw that. China can have it.
If you don't have a job as artist in the US, its either cause you suck, or you aren't trying hard enough.
A pic of my 100 percent custom level, just a test room for assets, textures and meshes. I call it DM-Carbon
[ QUOTE ]
I mean come on Epic theyre Communists.
[/ QUOTE ]
This was the portion I was frustrated at. Does it matter? I mean, I wouldn't post something about someone getting thrown in jail and post along with it "Come on judge, He's White!". The comment had no right being put in there. Not to mention the fact that I was talking about was from the same quote, China has the facade of Communism, its actually not how the country works as a whole, as arshlevon points out in the post after my post.
I'm sorry that you were insulted by what I said, but if you're going to display such discrimination, I don't care, I'll put my neck out and say something about it. Those are my feelings, just as you displayed yours.
And you're right, I do owe you an apology, I did ASSume, that you were talking about china as a whole, but in reality you just didn't specify.
Edit: Oh yeah, and uhm, a full essay would have been nice, mainly because it would have allowed you to not sound like a biggot. It would have gotten the full point accross.
While I respect your opinion of it being a "dangerous" country, I'm going to disagree with you.
Claiming that a country is "dangerous" gets the United States into wars. Wars that we can't handle.
If you have further problems with me, send me a PM and I will promtly ignore it.
Your right that comment didnt really need to be there. As a history buff I have seen some pretty horrible things and hold some hostility towards communism because it has caused so much pain and suffering. I think my main point was lost because of that comment. So, Im big enough to admit I shouldnt have posted it and stuck with the outsourcing point. I apologize if it offended anyone. Im not here to be an asshole. Just wanted to bring this story to everyone's attention. I shouldve kept my personal beliefs about their system of government to myself. But that does not negate the fact that this is not good for Americans who are aspiring game designers. I hope PfhorRunner we can express our opinions without insulting each other. It accomplishes nothing really.
Edit: Thanks oXYnary that was very considerate of you. I guess this subject was here before I discovered it. Thanks!
Ill read it all.
2nd Edit: PfhorRunner I just saw your edit of your previous post. How can I have a problem with someone Ive never met? All it is is differing opinions and arguments. You havent hurt my feelings haha.
Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow and Rainbow six 3 were made in Shanghai.
Streamline studios did a large portion of the content in UTk2k4 and they reside in Netherlands, they alo did content for Saints Row.
The fact of the matter is, if it wasn't for companies like Streamline, and others, the cost of game dev would be higher than it is already. Tho I am sure you would be happy making 900 variations of the same tree for minimum wage, Most artists in the US wouldn't be.
No outsourcing, then dev time doubles, budget doubles, the amount of games produced would decrease. It would be just be BAD for the north American game industry if we didn't have outsourcing. My numbers may not be accurate, the meaning behind them is spot on.
I am discouraged by the idea that someone in another country will take my job because they cost less.
[/ QUOTE ]
AND THEIR COMUNISTS!! AND TURORISTS!
Like I said, If you cant get a job, you either aren't trying, or you suck.
I feel it's hard to see this as an outsourcing issue and more of an issue you have with China. Sure they execute people they don't like and a lot of people work for peanuts. How is that different from other countries? America does exactly the same, so does India.
At the end of the day, America is built on capitalism. It's the American way. So if you don't like outsourcing to save a few bucks on overheads, please tell it that way. Instead of shoveling anti-china remarks.
Sure they execute people they don't like and a lot of people work for peanuts. How is that different from other countries? America does exactly the same, so does India.
[/ QUOTE ]
As far as I know, neither America nor India execute political prisoners and then harvest their organs to sell to rich westerners... could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure we don't do that
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2006/s1683142.htm
Just thought you guys should know.
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=10971
Im a huge fan of Epic games but this is a real dissappointment. I posted this on the official epic ut2007 forums and they deleted it!! They obviously dont want the average gamer to know about their buisness practices and outsourcing with one of the biggest human rights violators.
I mean come on Epic theyre Communists. I saw the Chinese military executing Tiawanese civilians they caught. And Epic is doing buisness with these people. Very dissappointing. What do you guys think?
[/ QUOTE ]
hmmmmmmm .... I think you live a very sheltered life and you have no idea of how the world works... Oh Im a dirty dirty chinaman and a bean counter to boot ! come fix my morals for me please.
Edit.. oh here we go again bashing noobs .. someone get the kittens out please Im allergic to cats
As far as I know, neither America nor India execute political prisoners and then harvest their organs to sell to rich westerners... could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure we don't do that
[/ QUOTE ]
What you do is lable them terrorist and hold them without a trial and then maybe shoot them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04QoA44c23A
only good can come of this thread.
[ QUOTE ]
Sure they execute people they don't like and a lot of people work for peanuts. How is that different from other countries? America does exactly the same, so does India.
[/ QUOTE ]
As far as I know, neither America nor India execute political prisoners and then harvest their organs to sell to rich westerners... could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure we don't do that
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2006/s1683142.htm
[/ QUOTE ]
yeah never!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/staffordshire/5368620.stm
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sure they execute people they don't like and a lot of people work for peanuts. How is that different from other countries? America does exactly the same, so does India.
[/ QUOTE ]
As far as I know, neither America nor India execute political prisoners and then harvest their organs to sell to rich westerners... could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure we don't do that
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2006/s1683142.htm
[/ QUOTE ]
yeah never!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/staffordshire/5368620.stm
[/ QUOTE ]
We're talking about governments, not citizens.
> teacup.
r.
It's a known fact that the industry has been changing for the last couple of years and it will continue in a major way.
At GDC last year I asked unnamed company if they would be interested to working with us. "We'll NEVER outsource, outsourcing sucks" they said(fuck off please),last week we were contacted by the same company asking for a bid.
There is enough room for every kind of outsourcer, cheap in china, expensive in the US, we all do different things. We have several clients who outsource to our company, china, russia, vietnam etc. for the same game. We work on some pretty hot looking titles too.
Ryno said it pretty well in that other thread.
-R
I just dont think American companies should support a dangerous government's economy.
[/ QUOTE ]
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Oh, that's rich.
Frank the Avenger
But again the same can be said about the US...
It seems like "outsourcing" has become a big bad buzzword these days based it's negative coverage in the media. Does anyone here really think the video game industry art created by outsourcing companies for cheaper labor in other countries come anywhere close to the majority for game companies in North America or Europe? I don't see how that could be feasible, but maybe I'm just silly.
If it gets a few chinese farmers off my WoW server for atleast an hour a day I'll be happy =P
In fact there is an increasing amount of privately own property/business within the economic structure of China..
There has been an explosion of young billionaires that built their fortune on manufacturing/webbusinesses.
I think you are living quite a bit in the past behind an iron curtain and you have much research to do before coming to such conclusions.
You are under the impression that cheaper labour countries are stealing the good jobs right out of your hands, which they are not... What kind of jobs are they stealing exactly ? Are these the jobs you aspire to place ? If the answer is yes, then the problem might be with you ..
I think outsourcing can bad on the aesthetic/artistic level, when outsourcing beyond the borders
as for customer service ? yeh that's crap