ther was another one called "china rising" on cbc .. it was quite an insightful look into the life of different people at different brackets of social ladder ..
off topic: their olympic stadium concept looks badass
armagon: noone is here to flame you, you come in with a very opinionated statement regarding the state of the industry and implications of outsourcing.. then you continue by making incorrect comments about china's economic status based solely on your personal political opinion...
you are finding this very personal and talking a lot of BS..
dont poke your hand into the fire and you wont get burned..
"You are under the impression that cheaper labour countries are stealing the good jobs right out of your hands, which they are not... What kind of jobs are they stealing exactly ? Are these the jobs you aspire to place ? If the answer is yes, then the problem might be with you .. "
Sounds like a personal attack on me. I have already apologized for the way I brought this topic to everyones attention. I was trying to inform everyone because I thought it might help you guys trying to get in the game industry to know this. Instead my harsh comment about not liking China is picked apart and the message is lost. My fault for that. But fuse you did make an attempt to insult me. This is what I get for caring about fellow game designers and bringing this story to everyones attention. I started this thread with the best intentions and found a bunch of people who picked apart my comments and molded them to insult me, and people who completely missed what I was trying to do. I have already apologized for the anti china comments. WTF else do you want from me? I guess thats what I get for looking out for fellow game designers. And yes fuse I came here with an opinion about China and expressed it. I did not consider that putting my hand in the fire. You are the one who has turned this into a personal attack. Yes I take this personal, but not the way you think. I am worried about securing a job as a game designer, not by your stupid comments. I didnt think that trying to inform people was poking my hand into the "fire".
Be specific fuse what have I said thats BS? Be very specific back it up.
you should stop acting like a skizophreni and actually read what people are trying to tell you . And try to avoid seeing personal attacks on everywhere, it wont help your position .
I for myself already saw this china outsourcing coming, my opinion is if they make better assets for the cheaper , i mean who wouldnt want it ? its a golden mine, and it will be explored . I can give you another example : In Europe , living cost is hgher than USA , meaning : most freelancers have a hard time since it is preferable USA citizens since it makes USD payment easier ( not to mention that 50 euros are like 75 USD or something like that , you buy a game with 75 euros and still you have left, with 50 euros you cant buy a game, you need 10 more ). Do you see us bitching ? some get other chances thou , im not saying that europe doesnt get jobs , i at least had some
You know what Im done here. All I have tried to do is inform you guys on what I see as potentially dangerous to the game industry for American artists. This being a community of artists I thought that this heads up would be appreciated. Im not seeing insults everywhere in my imagination. They are truly there. A lot of you chose to be hostile to me and not talk about the real issue. Later best wishes for you all.
I do outsoucring for a company in NYC and live in low cost Oklahoma. That means that if you are living in NYC I just stole your job! HA HA HA losers!
In fact, I think you would have to be stupid to stay in the US. My folks live in Saudi Arabia and love it (which goes to show that outsourcing is a 2-way street). I'm getting out of here as soon as I can. Maybe I'll move to Thailand. I can spend a couple hundred bucks to live on the beach and eat fantastic meals for a dollar.
It isn't like I have to worry about work. I can do contracts the same there as I can here. I really don't think my clients care where I live.
I know a guy that would work in the summer in the US and spent the rest of the year chilling in Thailand.
Sure ninja, easy, But even if your client dont care were u from, You still have to get a work visa from the country you will be working from, (if you dont have citizenship there that is, And that, for a freelancer, aint always a piece of CAKE!
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You know what Im done here. All I have tried to do is inform you guys on what I see as potentially dangerous to the game industry for American artists. This being a community of artists I thought that this heads up would be appreciated. Im not seeing insults everywhere in my imagination. They are truly there. A lot of you chose to be hostile to me and not talk about the real issue. Later best wishes for you all.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, you're saying I'm wrong for working from the Netherlands as a contract artist for american and canadian developers? Guess what, I've never had to apply to any companies abroad...
Also, did you ever consider that China isn't some mindless factory - there are plenty of artists out there too wanting to work in this industry. Just check out Cgtalk and see the amazing work some of the chinese members post. Sure, factually China still is under a communist regime, but everybody who has any interest in global economy knows china is increasingly becoming a free country. Sure it'll take 50 years or so until they have the same rights as we have here, but at least they're doing it on their own - ironically through capitalism.
If you're as much against outsourcing as you say, then go ahead and only buy products made in the US from now on. Of course you'd have to create your own clothes and grow most of your food - but that's a small price to pay for your patriotic principles right?
Just because there's international competition in a field you're interested in working in doesn't mean you should be scared and call epic an evil, capitalistic corporation. Bear in mind the only reason the US and most other western countries are as unproportionally rich is because we've always been extremely creative in exploiting weaker economies. At least in the case of China, the weaker economy is benefitting more from the relationship.
armagon9177: Stop seeing it so one sided. No one here is trying to insult you, they're saying in their own way to look at some people's points. We're not ignoring you, or even trying activly to insult you (well, maybe now since you didn't get it the first 7 times it was said). The reason you feel people are personally assaulting you, is because you feel so personal about the matter. Speak as if you have no personal connection, or at least think about the matter a couple steps back, so you won't feel so insulted by the opinions of others. You're acting all paranoid, and to tell you truth, made me giggle a little bit.
"Im not just imagining the insults! they're really there!"
vs.
"I see dead people!"
People are reading what you say, and they have opinions just like you. Its hypocritical to say that they're insulting you by posting their opinions on the matter, because you're doing the exact same thing. I'm sorry that your message was picked apart, but thats what happens when you post on a forum with a bunch of politically conscious minds.
Now as for the not being able to understand the customer service people, there's always the option of asking to speak to someone else. Just a handy tip i've learned in the past.
If you're such a history buff, then why don't you see the difference between China as it was 60+ years ago, and the way china is now? Or even more so, why can't you see the terrible and gruesome things capitalism has done to the world?
All I'm saying is that if you take a step back and look at the whole picture, then things won't make you feel insulted as much, and possibly you'll get a better idea for how every thing plays out. Stop over-reacting, and just let things slide.
The reason I brought up the China thing was because in order to see someone's point, I have to get past the discrimination that drives it. And sometimes it feels insulting to me. Sorry if I totally ruined your day.
Oh, one more thing, stop trying to tell people to be specific and back things up, because you have not done the same. most of your arguements have a back the same consistancy of jello just after its been in the sun for 5 hours.
ahh, pure american people! I love them... Chinese people are evil, their governement is evil and the rest of the world is evil! Hail to USA or be dead!... i wonder how long will it take to thy president G.Bush kill us all...
trolling aside, Portugal is "suffering" the same thing now, well not really them samething as here is is the chinese industry that is taking us over and not us moving there.Anyway, lots of clothing industries had to close their doors as they couldn't compete with cheaper and most of the times better chinese products.
Me as a very proud portuguese what i say? Finally! Average portuguese workers are lazy, they just want to sit their asses home, steal government money, don't pay taxes, get more money then they deserve, no studies neither good money managment, no new business ideas, get unemployed as they can be sit on front of the damn TV all day and even recieve the governemnt enemplyed subcide (spelling crap)... live and learn, i bet if most of them get a job again they will work far more and better...
... if chinese work more, better, for less then take then as examples and don't cry!
uh and don't want to insult anyone! plz americans, let me live with my inferiority in peace...
This is going to sound somewhat like a skeptic's position, but I don't think anyone here has brought new information to the table. Likewise, I don't think anyone here is really in any position to be changing another's mind on the matter.
I'm sure it's fun arguing about China, Communism, how patriotic you are, and the impacts of outsourcing on our economy, but I suspect it's wasted effort in most cases -- probably here as well. I doubt many people here, if any, could claim to be experts on the topics at hand, nor do I think anyone here is going to be providing a fresh perspective on the subject.
Most of what is being thrown into this thread are recycled arguments for one side or the other, some of which are probably invalid and probably downright wrong (I'm not saying who, but logic dictates that one side is right and one side is wrong -- wrong meaning incorrect, not morally wrong). There are probably a lot of fallacies being used, some rhetoric, etc. -- none of which is really contributing to the discussion.
So, out of curiosity, I want to ask this one question: what do you hope to gain out of this discussion? Certainly nobody is going to become enlightened by these recycled facts and opinions, and there is no new information being presented here. Where on the spectrum of (morally) right and wrong this topic lies will most likely not be discovered, either.
I think that if you really want to get to the bottom of this, you're going to need the opinion of the Chinese, various other countries' inhabitants, the general population of the US, etc. Following that, study the changes the economic changes of countries doing the outsourcing and the countries being outsourced to since the use of outsourcing has grown to determine the moral and economic ramifications of this.
Anyhow, that's just my 2 cents. Have fun.
Oh yes...
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jello just after its been in the sun for 5 hours.
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't know about you, but that stuff tastes great.
hehe, that'S funny!
A few month ago, epic said: We don't care about the money, we will pay more, for good work. Now they say, that the main reason to outsource is the money.
By the way, game campanys outsourcing in china aren't a problem or bad at all. In fact, it's good for the people.
The Problem is, that big technology companies like car companies, are forced to have a chinese partner company, in order to produce in china. This partner can steal all techonlogies and build their own cars a few years later
for example the "tranrapid" which took many german money to develop and was supposed to get it back by selling it, got copied after a few years.
Or the partner of VW and Audi know bought rover and uses VW and Audis technologies to compete.
Actually yes, I do claim to be an expert on this, and my "original idea" was skilled people should jump ship from the US so they can go live like kings in other parts of the world.
Its been a theory of mine that in the next 50 years well either see a very big war from the economic breakdown of the US. Or well see the redistrobution of welth world wide as welthy leave the major countrys and move the the cheaper places to live. Think about it no super rich counrtys just mildly well off counrtys world wide. the rich would then spend their money in the poor countrys thusly giving that econamy a bost so that the average joe there gets to live a slightly better life.
My vote still lies on the first option but thats just me knowing humanitys history.
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Actually yes, I do claim to be an expert on this, and my "original idea" was skilled people should jump ship from the US so they can go live like kings in other parts of the world.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or be kidnapped, raped, beaten then have your colon packed with broken glass and rusty nails as soon as you say you're from the US, but hey maybe that roll of 20's you left home with will save you from all that?
TGZ, see Resource Wars. Seems like a reasonable enough assertion to me.
Sometimes I wish I had been born a few decades earlier (Better music too! ). I suppose it's a tradeoff though; the modern world today enjoys a quality of life that is unparalleled in human history. It couldn't really go on forever. Whatever, best to enjoy your life and face new problems as they come...
They love americans in china, yet americans hate them. I will never get it. In fact they have more strict laws against theft from people not of china. So its a hell of alot less likly to get muged over there when they know that they could get put in jail for 25 years. Insted they are much more likly to ask you questions and get you to buy something of theirs at some inflated price but will seem like nothing to you.
Yes! Thank you zcubed. Ninja, what we discussed PM, I was referencing Resource Wars. Beyond your personal feelings on Marx, this a theory that more than one group promote.
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Sure it'll take 50 years or so until they have the same rights as we have here, but at least they're doing it on their own - ironically through capitalism.
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[flamebait]Or 25 as the rights here are reduced. [/flamebait]
It's not that we are forced to outsource because of money, you may notice that we are actively hunting for people inhouse to give more money to, but we can't find enough that are good enough so we're setting up a studio that we'll train up rather than deal piecemeal with individual contractors who vary between being fast and reliable to being slow and unreliable depending on how much other work they have at the time.
There's fantastic amount of talent in China and I'm excited looking forward to what Epic China will produce once they've had time to adapt their already considerable skillset to our workflow and technology.
The enduser, the gamers, they are not going to notice any difference other than that they will be getting more for their money and getting it more quickly.
As a company we get access to a steady supply of high quality assets from one source instead of from multiple sources (from all over the world btw) like Epic has relied upon to ship most of our games for the last decade.
This makes for increased continuity of artstyle and a higher quality of product in the end whilst Epic China gets the benifit of our experience and the chance to really grow as artists which is what all artists want.
The rest of the notions in this thread are uninformed, kneejerk misinterpretations of the situation that are most likely borne out of watching too much bad tv!
This is not a bad thing , for anyone, its a great thing for everyone.
I was an outsource resource for about 2 years solid doing the characters/weapon textures on Unreal2 and I produced more than the average inhouse artist while I did this.
Outsourcing is not the devil, its a valuable asset if you can do it with reliable , professional individuals with whom you have a clearly established line of communication with.
You can go back to name calling again if you wish , but the above is how it actually is.
Resource Wars does illustrate how things work sometimes. There are scare resources and people do fight over them. In reality though, this is the exception to the rule.
The shortage of many resources, like land and water are the simple result of too many people. That is an easy enough problem to solve-- use a condom. There is no need for food, fish and timber to be especially scarce since these things use the sun's energy to replenish themselves and so are effectively unlimited, so long as you take care of the properly. Oil isn't even worth fighting for. there are other, renewable resources that can do the same job.
If you want to read a good book on the subject I recommend Collapse by Jared Diamond.
You've got the right idea, Ninjas, but a condom isn't the magic bullet.
The earth's population of six billion plus is far above what the renewable energies of this earth can support. There were just over one billion people on earth in pre-industrial times, and today's world has far fewer resources than than the one of the 1800's. Massive famines would kill most of the global community before things evened out (Check out the theories of Thomas Malthus). Crude oil is also essential to the production of the pesticides and fertilizers that allowed for the population explosion of the 20th century. Our population is artificially inflated by industrialism and the cheap energy of fossil fuels.
Oil isn't worth fighting for? It's called "black gold" for a reason. One barrel of the stuff contains over 30,000 man-hours of work! Petroleum has powered our society for over a century, and a collapse of the oil market would likely send the world into a permanent recession. Yes, there are alternatives, but none that match the energy content and ease of use of petroleum.
Anyways, now I've oficially gone off topic.
P.S. Sorry if I'm coming across as somewhat pretentious, I'm just not very good at debating. I'm actually quite friendly.
I'm familiar with all that, but at the same time you can look at every industrialized country on the planet and see the population falling (-imigration). Malthus was wrong. We aren't forced to fuck until we starve.
Oil is all well and good, and there will be a recession when we don't have it any more, but the fact is that we can just do something different. We don't have to use cars so much. I work from home using the internet. It's awesome! You don't need so many pesticides when you can genetically engineer your crops to repel bugs.
That is the core difference between the socialist and capitalist views. Socialists see that there is only so much shit and we have to fight to get it before it's gone. The capitalist sees worthless shit and makes it into something valuable. Worthless sand gets turned into super computers, worthless black shit gets turned into a fantastic energy source, etc etc. Almost every thing you can think of was worthless untill a technology was invented to make it into a resource.
If you project what we are doing now into the future, then I think you are completely right, but we have always changed what we have done. Look at places like Tikopia and you see that populations can be restrained, and you can still live a happy productive life.
Maybe some people will have to change their life goal from accumilating as much consumer shit as they can to something else. I only see this as a good thing. The fact is that we don't have to war over resources. We don't have to reproduce to match our food supply. We just don't.
Canada has passed 1533 death penalties. The death penalty
was totally abololished as late as 1998.
1998 was a barely a cough and a ball scratch ago. So don't get all noble about canada, the place is like any other 'civilized' nation (aside from the ridiculus taxation I had to endure)
If anyone calls me unfair about slandering Americans again I'll remind them of this thread. Yep, you read it here. me, a Canadian trash talking his own governmnet. Surprise, surprise...I'm actually fair.
Your farts taste like bullshit...so do your narrow minded, racist, prsumptious posts.
Oh yeah smart ass. Epic 'already' outsources their art outside of North America for over a year. They outsources TONS of their art for every fucking game they made. Even the first one! Hello...Digital Extremes anyone??
Capitalism...so long as armagon9177 can understand the east Indian on the other line...huh For God's sakes it's 'our' capitalistic ideals that that perpetuates the outsourcing of expendable tasks in the first place.
People who wish to 'protect jobs' should understabnd that this economy is changing. The future of the North American economy is leadership and innovation...not production.
Yes, I don't mean to be so matter-of-fact. I've still got a lot to learn. Tikopia presents an interesting scenario, and one that I hadn't heard of before. I'll definitely do some additional reading on it.
Still, I think that you fail to recognize how deep our addiction to fossil fuels runs. Driving less is a wonderful idea, and something that I think everyone should make an effort to do, but is it really a solution? What about the tractors that farmers depend upon? The trucks that form the backbone of America's shipping system? The airplanes that make long-distance travel possible? Roadways are the arteries that pump blood to modernized societies (More than half of all Americans have migrated to Suburbia). World hunger in this day and age is caused by distribution failure, not lack of food.
I'm not sure that I agree with your example. Supercomputers aren't built by hand; the average personal computer consumes about 10 times its weight in petroleum during production. What about other essential oil derrivatives? Plastic, anyone? Energy doesn't just appear when needed, even human ingenuity is constrained by the laws of thermodynamics.
I can't imagine that consumerism will vanish anytime in the near future.
I don't want to drag this thread further off course, but I'd certainly be interested in learning more if you want to discuss this elsewhere.
I had to stop reading this thread to post these quotes;
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uh and don't want to insult anyone! plz americans, let me live with my inferiority in peace...
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or be kidnapped, raped, beaten then have your colon packed with broken glass and rusty nails as soon as you say you're from the US, but hey maybe that roll of 20's you left home with will save you from all that?
[/ QUOTE ]
more entertainment comes from these serious threads than you'd ever find in a deliberate humour thread
This entire thread is worth it just from the discussion between zcubed and ninja. Thats interesting stuff! Inquiring minds want to learn more (have book on ever growing list).
"Capitalism...so long as armagon9177 can understand the east Indian on the other line...huh " I was giving an example. Thats all. Quit trying to paint me as a racist please. I was attacking their form of government not their race. You are a little presumtuous in thinking that my idea of outsourcing is based on a phone call. This would be funny if it wasnt so sad..
Thegodzero
I took a look at your portfolio. Nice work. Keep it up.
I didn't read every post, but what I can't understand is why everyone is jumping on Armagon for his criticism of the Chinese government. The People's Republic of China is notorious for their human rights violations (Tiananmen Square, anyone?). Amnesty International is constantly publishing reports on violations of the PRC government. I think it's a legitimate concern, and reason enough to criticize Epic for opening a studio there.
I didn't see any xenophobia or scaremongering. He said he was disappointed in Epic for doing business with a country that is one of the biggest human rights violators in the world, which is absolutely true. The PRC is far from a shining example of a benevolent government; they're about as far from it as you can get.
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't see any xenophobia or scaremongering. He said he was disappointed in Epic for doing business with a country that is one of the biggest human rights violators in the world, which is absolutely true. The PRC is far from a shining example of a benevolent government; they're about as far from it as you can get.
All forms of government are corrupt and as a result I support none. If people want to outsource to china then more power to them. More people have been killed for democracy than any other government system except for monarchy back in emperial times. There is nothing wrong with democracy or communisim or capitalisim, just the governments that claim to be such. All this has nothing to do with the game art industry. China = cheaper production cost and that is the bottom line.
hehe, just thought I would go with the flow and post some crap :P
It blows my mind that people are calling him a "bigot" and a "xenophobe" for speaking poorly of the PRC. Are people just not aware of what's been going on there? Not aware that the PRC routinely imprisons (and sometimes executes) journalists, lawyers, activists and followers of "outlawed" religions? That they beat and abuse people who protest the destruction of their homes for commercial development? Or do people just not see that as a bad thing?
If you don't see any of that as a grave injustice, fine. But to call Armagon a bigot because he's concerned by it? I just don't understand it. I think he has a legitimate reason to dislike the PRC, and a legitimate reason to be disappointed in Epic. He certainly doesn't deserve to be called a bigot (unless I missed something major in the last couple of pages).
Replies
off topic: their olympic stadium concept looks badass
armagon: noone is here to flame you, you come in with a very opinionated statement regarding the state of the industry and implications of outsourcing.. then you continue by making incorrect comments about china's economic status based solely on your personal political opinion...
you are finding this very personal and talking a lot of BS..
dont poke your hand into the fire and you wont get burned..
"You are under the impression that cheaper labour countries are stealing the good jobs right out of your hands, which they are not... What kind of jobs are they stealing exactly ? Are these the jobs you aspire to place ? If the answer is yes, then the problem might be with you .. "
Sounds like a personal attack on me. I have already apologized for the way I brought this topic to everyones attention. I was trying to inform everyone because I thought it might help you guys trying to get in the game industry to know this. Instead my harsh comment about not liking China is picked apart and the message is lost. My fault for that. But fuse you did make an attempt to insult me. This is what I get for caring about fellow game designers and bringing this story to everyones attention. I started this thread with the best intentions and found a bunch of people who picked apart my comments and molded them to insult me, and people who completely missed what I was trying to do. I have already apologized for the anti china comments. WTF else do you want from me? I guess thats what I get for looking out for fellow game designers. And yes fuse I came here with an opinion about China and expressed it. I did not consider that putting my hand in the fire. You are the one who has turned this into a personal attack. Yes I take this personal, but not the way you think. I am worried about securing a job as a game designer, not by your stupid comments. I didnt think that trying to inform people was poking my hand into the "fire".
Be specific fuse what have I said thats BS? Be very specific back it up.
I for myself already saw this china outsourcing coming, my opinion is if they make better assets for the cheaper , i mean who wouldnt want it ? its a golden mine, and it will be explored . I can give you another example : In Europe , living cost is hgher than USA , meaning : most freelancers have a hard time since it is preferable USA citizens since it makes USD payment easier ( not to mention that 50 euros are like 75 USD or something like that , you buy a game with 75 euros and still you have left, with 50 euros you cant buy a game, you need 10 more ). Do you see us bitching ? some get other chances thou , im not saying that europe doesnt get jobs , i at least had some
sorry blankslatejoe , but i cant find any image that doesnt suit better
In fact, I think you would have to be stupid to stay in the US. My folks live in Saudi Arabia and love it (which goes to show that outsourcing is a 2-way street). I'm getting out of here as soon as I can. Maybe I'll move to Thailand. I can spend a couple hundred bucks to live on the beach and eat fantastic meals for a dollar.
It isn't like I have to worry about work. I can do contracts the same there as I can here. I really don't think my clients care where I live.
I know a guy that would work in the summer in the US and spent the rest of the year chilling in Thailand.
sad sad sad!
You know what Im done here. All I have tried to do is inform you guys on what I see as potentially dangerous to the game industry for American artists. This being a community of artists I thought that this heads up would be appreciated. Im not seeing insults everywhere in my imagination. They are truly there. A lot of you chose to be hostile to me and not talk about the real issue. Later best wishes for you all.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, you're saying I'm wrong for working from the Netherlands as a contract artist for american and canadian developers? Guess what, I've never had to apply to any companies abroad...
Also, did you ever consider that China isn't some mindless factory - there are plenty of artists out there too wanting to work in this industry. Just check out Cgtalk and see the amazing work some of the chinese members post. Sure, factually China still is under a communist regime, but everybody who has any interest in global economy knows china is increasingly becoming a free country. Sure it'll take 50 years or so until they have the same rights as we have here, but at least they're doing it on their own - ironically through capitalism.
If you're as much against outsourcing as you say, then go ahead and only buy products made in the US from now on. Of course you'd have to create your own clothes and grow most of your food - but that's a small price to pay for your patriotic principles right?
Just because there's international competition in a field you're interested in working in doesn't mean you should be scared and call epic an evil, capitalistic corporation. Bear in mind the only reason the US and most other western countries are as unproportionally rich is because we've always been extremely creative in exploiting weaker economies. At least in the case of China, the weaker economy is benefitting more from the relationship.
theres been an influx of josh's mom lately. Oooohh!
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Way to take it too far! see that's what I mean I just try to say somthing and you guys start personally attacking me!!
This forum is so mean *sniff*
"Im not just imagining the insults! they're really there!"
vs.
"I see dead people!"
People are reading what you say, and they have opinions just like you. Its hypocritical to say that they're insulting you by posting their opinions on the matter, because you're doing the exact same thing. I'm sorry that your message was picked apart, but thats what happens when you post on a forum with a bunch of politically conscious minds.
Now as for the not being able to understand the customer service people, there's always the option of asking to speak to someone else. Just a handy tip i've learned in the past.
If you're such a history buff, then why don't you see the difference between China as it was 60+ years ago, and the way china is now? Or even more so, why can't you see the terrible and gruesome things capitalism has done to the world?
All I'm saying is that if you take a step back and look at the whole picture, then things won't make you feel insulted as much, and possibly you'll get a better idea for how every thing plays out. Stop over-reacting, and just let things slide.
The reason I brought up the China thing was because in order to see someone's point, I have to get past the discrimination that drives it. And sometimes it feels insulting to me. Sorry if I totally ruined your day.
Oh, one more thing, stop trying to tell people to be specific and back things up, because you have not done the same. most of your arguements have a back the same consistancy of jello just after its been in the sun for 5 hours.
trolling aside, Portugal is "suffering" the same thing now, well not really them samething as here is is the chinese industry that is taking us over and not us moving there.Anyway, lots of clothing industries had to close their doors as they couldn't compete with cheaper and most of the times better chinese products.
Me as a very proud portuguese what i say? Finally! Average portuguese workers are lazy, they just want to sit their asses home, steal government money, don't pay taxes, get more money then they deserve, no studies neither good money managment, no new business ideas, get unemployed as they can be sit on front of the damn TV all day and even recieve the governemnt enemplyed subcide (spelling crap)... live and learn, i bet if most of them get a job again they will work far more and better...
... if chinese work more, better, for less then take then as examples and don't cry!
uh and don't want to insult anyone! plz americans, let me live with my inferiority in peace...
I'm sure it's fun arguing about China, Communism, how patriotic you are, and the impacts of outsourcing on our economy, but I suspect it's wasted effort in most cases -- probably here as well. I doubt many people here, if any, could claim to be experts on the topics at hand, nor do I think anyone here is going to be providing a fresh perspective on the subject.
Most of what is being thrown into this thread are recycled arguments for one side or the other, some of which are probably invalid and probably downright wrong (I'm not saying who, but logic dictates that one side is right and one side is wrong -- wrong meaning incorrect, not morally wrong). There are probably a lot of fallacies being used, some rhetoric, etc. -- none of which is really contributing to the discussion.
So, out of curiosity, I want to ask this one question: what do you hope to gain out of this discussion? Certainly nobody is going to become enlightened by these recycled facts and opinions, and there is no new information being presented here. Where on the spectrum of (morally) right and wrong this topic lies will most likely not be discovered, either.
I think that if you really want to get to the bottom of this, you're going to need the opinion of the Chinese, various other countries' inhabitants, the general population of the US, etc. Following that, study the changes the economic changes of countries doing the outsourcing and the countries being outsourced to since the use of outsourcing has grown to determine the moral and economic ramifications of this.
Anyhow, that's just my 2 cents. Have fun.
Oh yes...
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jello just after its been in the sun for 5 hours.
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Don't know about you, but that stuff tastes great.
A few month ago, epic said: We don't care about the money, we will pay more, for good work. Now they say, that the main reason to outsource is the money.
By the way, game campanys outsourcing in china aren't a problem or bad at all. In fact, it's good for the people.
The Problem is, that big technology companies like car companies, are forced to have a chinese partner company, in order to produce in china. This partner can steal all techonlogies and build their own cars a few years later
for example the "tranrapid" which took many german money to develop and was supposed to get it back by selling it, got copied after a few years.
Or the partner of VW and Audi know bought rover and uses VW and Audis technologies to compete.
is it just me or has there been an influx of crybabys on the boards latley? I'm just say'n.
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No doubt, but its cool because we all know who to call in just such emergencies.
Its been a theory of mine that in the next 50 years well either see a very big war from the economic breakdown of the US. Or well see the redistrobution of welth world wide as welthy leave the major countrys and move the the cheaper places to live. Think about it no super rich counrtys just mildly well off counrtys world wide. the rich would then spend their money in the poor countrys thusly giving that econamy a bost so that the average joe there gets to live a slightly better life.
My vote still lies on the first option but thats just me knowing humanitys history.
Actually yes, I do claim to be an expert on this, and my "original idea" was skilled people should jump ship from the US so they can go live like kings in other parts of the world.
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Or be kidnapped, raped, beaten then have your colon packed with broken glass and rusty nails as soon as you say you're from the US, but hey maybe that roll of 20's you left home with will save you from all that?
Or be kidnapped, raped, beaten then have your colon packed with broken glass and rusty nails as soon as you say you're from the US
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Now what traveler in their right mind let it be known they were from the US? Seriously though there are a lot of places that tolerate Americans okay.
Sometimes I wish I had been born a few decades earlier (Better music too!
Oh, right, China. Carry on.
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Or be kidnapped, raped, beaten then have your colon packed with broken glass and rusty nails as soon as you say you're from the US
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Now what traveler in their right mind let it be known they were from the US? Seriously though there are a lot of places that tolerate Americans okay.
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You can tell the average American abroad by their fear of getting kidnapped, raped or beaten.
Zcube nice link!
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Sure it'll take 50 years or so until they have the same rights as we have here, but at least they're doing it on their own - ironically through capitalism.
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[flamebait]Or 25 as the rights here are reduced.
There's fantastic amount of talent in China and I'm excited looking forward to what Epic China will produce once they've had time to adapt their already considerable skillset to our workflow and technology.
The enduser, the gamers, they are not going to notice any difference other than that they will be getting more for their money and getting it more quickly.
As a company we get access to a steady supply of high quality assets from one source instead of from multiple sources (from all over the world btw) like Epic has relied upon to ship most of our games for the last decade.
This makes for increased continuity of artstyle and a higher quality of product in the end whilst Epic China gets the benifit of our experience and the chance to really grow as artists which is what all artists want.
The rest of the notions in this thread are uninformed, kneejerk misinterpretations of the situation that are most likely borne out of watching too much bad tv!
This is not a bad thing , for anyone, its a great thing for everyone.
I was an outsource resource for about 2 years solid doing the characters/weapon textures on Unreal2 and I produced more than the average inhouse artist while I did this.
Outsourcing is not the devil, its a valuable asset if you can do it with reliable , professional individuals with whom you have a clearly established line of communication with.
You can go back to name calling again if you wish , but the above is how it actually is.
r.
Now back to helping fix those misconceptions!
First off chinese food isnt panda express, and second of all they are not all less then 5 ft tall.
The shortage of many resources, like land and water are the simple result of too many people. That is an easy enough problem to solve-- use a condom. There is no need for food, fish and timber to be especially scarce since these things use the sun's energy to replenish themselves and so are effectively unlimited, so long as you take care of the properly. Oil isn't even worth fighting for. there are other, renewable resources that can do the same job.
If you want to read a good book on the subject I recommend Collapse by Jared Diamond.
The earth's population of six billion plus is far above what the renewable energies of this earth can support. There were just over one billion people on earth in pre-industrial times, and today's world has far fewer resources than than the one of the 1800's. Massive famines would kill most of the global community before things evened out (Check out the theories of Thomas Malthus). Crude oil is also essential to the production of the pesticides and fertilizers that allowed for the population explosion of the 20th century. Our population is artificially inflated by industrialism and the cheap energy of fossil fuels.
Oil isn't worth fighting for? It's called "black gold" for a reason. One barrel of the stuff contains over 30,000 man-hours of work! Petroleum has powered our society for over a century, and a collapse of the oil market would likely send the world into a permanent recession. Yes, there are alternatives, but none that match the energy content and ease of use of petroleum.
Anyways, now I've oficially gone off topic.
P.S. Sorry if I'm coming across as somewhat pretentious, I'm just not very good at debating. I'm actually quite friendly.
Oil is all well and good, and there will be a recession when we don't have it any more, but the fact is that we can just do something different. We don't have to use cars so much. I work from home using the internet. It's awesome! You don't need so many pesticides when you can genetically engineer your crops to repel bugs.
That is the core difference between the socialist and capitalist views. Socialists see that there is only so much shit and we have to fight to get it before it's gone. The capitalist sees worthless shit and makes it into something valuable. Worthless sand gets turned into super computers, worthless black shit gets turned into a fantastic energy source, etc etc. Almost every thing you can think of was worthless untill a technology was invented to make it into a resource.
If you project what we are doing now into the future, then I think you are completely right, but we have always changed what we have done. Look at places like Tikopia and you see that populations can be restrained, and you can still live a happy productive life.
Maybe some people will have to change their life goal from accumilating as much consumer shit as they can to something else. I only see this as a good thing. The fact is that we don't have to war over resources. We don't have to reproduce to match our food supply. We just don't.
was totally abololished as late as 1998.
1998 was a barely a cough and a ball scratch ago. So don't get all noble about canada, the place is like any other 'civilized' nation (aside from the ridiculus taxation I had to endure)
If anyone calls me unfair about slandering Americans again I'll remind them of this thread. Yep, you read it here. me, a Canadian trash talking his own governmnet. Surprise, surprise...I'm actually fair.
Your farts taste like bullshit...so do your narrow minded, racist, prsumptious posts.
Oh yeah smart ass. Epic 'already' outsources their art outside of North America for over a year. They outsources TONS of their art for every fucking game they made. Even the first one! Hello...Digital Extremes anyone??
Capitalism...so long as armagon9177 can understand the east Indian on the other line...huh
People who wish to 'protect jobs' should understabnd that this economy is changing. The future of the North American economy is leadership and innovation...not production.
Figure it out...then start threads.
-R
Still, I think that you fail to recognize how deep our addiction to fossil fuels runs. Driving less is a wonderful idea, and something that I think everyone should make an effort to do, but is it really a solution? What about the tractors that farmers depend upon? The trucks that form the backbone of America's shipping system? The airplanes that make long-distance travel possible? Roadways are the arteries that pump blood to modernized societies (More than half of all Americans have migrated to Suburbia). World hunger in this day and age is caused by distribution failure, not lack of food.
I'm not sure that I agree with your example. Supercomputers aren't built by hand; the average personal computer consumes about 10 times its weight in petroleum during production. What about other essential oil derrivatives? Plastic, anyone? Energy doesn't just appear when needed, even human ingenuity is constrained by the laws of thermodynamics.
I can't imagine that consumerism will vanish anytime in the near future.
I don't want to drag this thread further off course, but I'd certainly be interested in learning more if you want to discuss this elsewhere.
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uh and don't want to insult anyone! plz americans, let me live with my inferiority in peace...
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Or be kidnapped, raped, beaten then have your colon packed with broken glass and rusty nails as soon as you say you're from the US, but hey maybe that roll of 20's you left home with will save you from all that?
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But yeah, really interesting stuff! I'm pretty sure I'd do my homework a lot more often if schoolwork was this engaging and practical.
Thegodzero
I took a look at your portfolio. Nice work. Keep it up.
I didn't see any xenophobia or scaremongering. He said he was disappointed in Epic for doing business with a country that is one of the biggest human rights violators in the world, which is absolutely true. The PRC is far from a shining example of a benevolent government; they're about as far from it as you can get.
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"Epic Games China!!?? lets support communism?"
hehe, just thought I would go with the flow and post some crap :P
I think this topic is going nowhere.
If you don't see any of that as a grave injustice, fine. But to call Armagon a bigot because he's concerned by it? I just don't understand it. I think he has a legitimate reason to dislike the PRC, and a legitimate reason to be disappointed in Epic. He certainly doesn't deserve to be called a bigot (unless I missed something major in the last couple of pages).