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episodic content blasted by epic

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hawken polycounter lvl 19
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/5168320.stm

money money money ~

my thoughts: spend more time on making good games, not moaning about graphics.

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  • CheapAlert
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    CheapAlert polycounter lvl 18
    i miss the days when games consisted of 3, 4 or even 6 episodes in one package (sometimes two: 1-3 and 4-6).

    well to them, it just means more money, because of their spinnable, monotnous, lemming fans that just want to see what the next obvious cliffhanger is about, then the next, and so on

    I remember Duke Nukem Manhattan Project was said to have this same exact "episodic" idea back in 2001 when it was previewed, but they happened to drop that in the end and stuck with the good ol' shareware method that works.
  • flaagan
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    flaagan polycounter lvl 18
    Last time I checked, I really enjoyed episodic content, and considering the total price of the 3 episodes of hl2 will cost less than a full game (if you preorder), and I'm essentialy getting three good games that work together for what ultimately cheaper than one, I think Mr. Rein needs to dunk his head in a bucket of cold, soapy, dirty water. tongue.gif
  • malcolm
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    malcolm polycount sponsor
    I love episodic content! It's like owning a console, you get a new game and it actually fucking works on the pc you played the original on. I found sin episodes to be a full length game? Half life seemed a bit short though. Any who, I love how epic has gone on record to state they can make next gen games with 24 people or less and do not need to spend as much money as "other" developers and now they are going on record to say they can't make games with less than 24 people and 4 years of dev time. So which is it?
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    They said they only had a 50% increase in costs for next-gen development. I don't recall any absolute numbers.

    As for episodes, one problem is that if a game tanks you aren't even going to see the end of the storyline. Another problem is the diminishing userbase, each episode can only be bought by those who finished the previous one unless you put some heavy constraints on the story. Even among those some would just not buy another one. Then there's the problem that an episode could suck bad enough to alienate the majority of your playerbase, how are you going to get them back?

    I won't buy HL2Ep1 because I haven't finished HL2 (and I'm not going to). If it was HL3* I might consider it because I could still follow what was going on as a sequel is usually developed in a way that makes sure new players can get into the game easily (or at least I could understand HL2 without having understood a word of the storyline of HL1, if there even was one). An episode doesn't really have the time to introduce new players to the concept.

    Beyond Good & Evil and Shenmue are examples of games that were designed with a sequel in mind but won't be getting one because of their bad sales. Yet another reason to make sure your game has a conclusion and not just an ending that basicaly says "buy the sequel!".

    *) I am aware that Valve says the eps will be HL3 but eps and a standalone game are different things.
  • Mark Dygert
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    Damn it I guess I have to start hating episodic content because Mark Rein said so... He really needs to learn to shut up and let his company make good games. I like the company, I like the games, I even like the people who work for him. But every time he opens his mouth he comes off sounding like a raging cock. At first I thought it was the way the quoted him but now reading it from different sources and at different times, I come to the conclusion he is full of himself and his ideas.

    I'll sum up the article for anyone not wanting to look past his bloated ego and gigantanormous head.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Episodic content will fail because Epic is making gears of war. I Mark Rein claim media center stage as my own personal soap box. Oh yeah and GEARS OF WAR will eat all of the lamers money so just stop making games.


    kk bye bye loves and kisses,

    Mark Rein, Media Whore

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Maybe a company needs to adjust its business model and instead of releasing one episode and then working on the next. They need to FINISH a series (3-5 episodes) and then release them slowly over time as they build another 2-3 bonus episodes. SHOCK HORROR, GOOD GOD could someone actually give customers what they want on a schedule that doesn't leave them twisting in the wind? I think they might be able to. I guess Mark Rein isn't up for the task, pity Epic is a company that could pull it off well and has the cash to blaze the trail and set the bar high, cornering the market.

    Tell you what Mark Rein, you stick to making a nice engine and keeping your cake-hole shut. The rest of us will use it to make episodic content and mods. Really buddy stop trying to make yourself look cool by flining poo at the latest buzz words. Microsoft is leading a large push for Episodic content, don't go running down your bussiness partner. If you don't agree with it, just keep it to yourself and safeguard yourself if you think it could hurt you. But don't shoot your mouth off trying to grab some press. You'll just end up with a Bungie complex and the next thing you know you'll be quoted as saying stupid things like "Art is LAW" or "MORE LINES MEANS MORE DETAIL". It would be a horrible end to such a great company to be remembered by your big mouth instead of the great games it makes.

    I do agree that Intel screwed the PC newer gamer market with its crappy intagrated video cards. I can't count how many times I hear "but I bought this computer and just wanted to play this little game" while doing support for Atari. After 30min of explaining to the customer they finally where privy to what we all know. I don't know a single PC gamer worth thier spit that doesn't know what a video card is how important a good one is. Most of them build thier own systems or know where to go to get a good set up.

    You could say his engine/company did just as much damage to the PC market as Intel did. Sure great graphics are nice but you really want to impress me. Give me those graphics on a p3 500mhz with a 16mb video card. Then I will bow before the master. Its not always about bigger faster stronger, sometimes its about hitting the most fans. Which is why I think Epic is in bed with MS and Mark Rein is all over the 360.
  • Zwebbie
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    Zwebbie polycounter lvl 18
    Ok, this does seem to be a bit of mediawhoring. Episodic content has only brouhgt a few games (as far as I know, only HL2 Ep1 and SiN). I can understand if someone doesn't hold much faith in the system, but he's awfully whiney and rant-y. And full of himself, Vig's sum-up was pretty good.

    That said, I'm not so sure if I do like episodic content myself. Haven't played Ep1, though I have HL2, but from what I've heard, it seems awfully focused on creating as much cliffhangers and questions as possible, while answering none. Rather poor, storyline wise. Furthermore, Ep1 also appears to offer only 4,5 hours of content (on average), and while the cost-playtime ration may be as much as it is for most games these days, you'd be playing on the same old engine, fighting the same old combine, in the same old city, with pretty much the same old story. In short, it isn't innovative in the slightest.

    Though, personally, I'm not much a fan of sequels either. Multiple endings are so much cooler, and I'd like to fight some new enemies - Take Halo series. Halo2 is essentially Halo, you fight the same enemies, it's still the same plot going on, and if you want a full story, you'll HAVE to play all three games.

    Ok, that much for my full-of-my-self-rant.
  • Mister Sentient
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    Mister Sentient polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]

    As for episodes, one problem is that if a game tanks you aren't even going to see the end of the storyline. Another problem is the diminishing userbase, each episode can only be bought by those who finished the previous one unless you put some heavy constraints on the story. Even among those some would just not buy another one. Then there's the problem that an episode could suck bad enough to alienate the majority of your playerbase, how are you going to get them back?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    It is only natural that episodic games will use the same tricks as a television series. That is how these companies make their money, they have to keep people coming back for new episodes. It is just a new way of playing games. You wouldn't compare a television series to a major studio movie would you?
  • Mister Sentient
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    Mister Sentient polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    The games developer said the current model of releasing episodic content in the form of fully-fledged sequels was the least risky model for the industry.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I don't get it. How is spending 2-4 years developing a game less risky than only spending 6 months. At least with episodic content they don't have to gamble the entire company's future in one crap shoot.
  • hawken
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    hawken polycounter lvl 19
    my friend in brighton got a CD from the conference though the post with a virus on it, anyone else get one?

    if so can you take a photo? he might take it up in a legal matter...
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    Most TV series are made by the season so if it tanks at least the season will still be complete and most story arcs will be resolved. Also production times are shorter, they don't wait half a year between episodes.

    They need to FINISH a series (3-5 episodes) and then release them slowly over time as they build another 2-3 bonus episodes.

    I wouldn't say that concept is foreign to Epic. After all, they were one of the big companies in the shareware era where episodes were commonplace (but stories were so thin and superfluous that you didn't have to play the preceding episodes to understand the next one), I remember Epic Megagames as the big rival to Apogee. They did break games up in parts and allow you to buy each part separately or the whole thing in a bundle (first episode was always free). I'd guess Rein knows more about that than most other developers.
  • Mister Sentient
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    Mister Sentient polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    Most TV series are made by the season so if it tanks at least the season will still be complete and most story arcs will be resolved. Also production times are shorter, they don't wait half a year between episodes.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Indeed. Making a direct comparison between the games industry and other industries is probably not a good idea. Unfortunately it seems to happen all too often. The games industry might borrow ideas from film and television but it is fundamentally different.
  • dfacto
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    dfacto polycounter lvl 18
    I'm not too big on episodic content either. It strikes me as the master plan to make big bucks by adding negligible stories and items to an existing game, instead of hammering out a solid expansion pack.

    Then again, I have yet to see exactly how it plays out.
  • Mister Sentient
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    Mister Sentient polycounter lvl 18
    Personally I've never been a huge fan of episodic content. I also like my entertainment in self-contained packages neatly wrapped up. I don't like being reeled in season after season watching television shows that only continue to exist because they have good ratings.

    Edit: I guess you could draw a parallel with the sequel problem in the games industry. Sequels tend to get made not because the original creators want to make them but rather because a publisher thinks it can cash in on an already existing fan base.
  • dfacto
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    dfacto polycounter lvl 18
    Actually, after thinking about it a bit, I think that this will come into force, but not yet. When graphics get to the point where hardware and software upgrades stop making a big difference, I think episodic content will become the norm. Making assets will be a long and expensive process, so it would make more business sense to make a base, and then provide episodes that either add to it, or change it around to create new games, rather than going through the expense of creating something from scratch.
  • Frank
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    Frank polycounter lvl 18
    I feel the need to point out that something Mark says is not neccessarily an official stance of the entire company. Despite the thread title, Mark's is not the only opinion.

    Frank the Avenger
  • hawken
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    hawken polycounter lvl 19
    not the only opinion but he is the vice president of epic, thats some big guns right there
  • Ninjas
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    Ninjas polycounter lvl 18
    Episodic content is cool, but I would rather see complete short games. Something that lasts 4 or 5 hours but that tells it's own story and has it's own gameplay.
  • adam
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    adam polycounter lvl 19
    I wrote this on Shacknews but figured it'd apply to this thread. It's in regardless to Valve's business model and how it revolves around short development cycles, more specifically episodic releases:

    We won't be seeing a full-on Single player title from Valve for a while (like, 4-5 years'ish). They're set on small development teams doing small projects. The next biggest thing we'll see from Valve, I reckon, is more of a technological update than a title - whether it's new features for Steam, Hammer, the rendered within Source, etc. etc.

    For now they'll continue having small teams doing small projects: CS:S/DoD:S maps, HL:2 episodes, tech updates. TF2 will be a title we can buy seperately in stores or on Steam, thats a given, but it won't be any different from CS:S or DoD:S in terms of production value or content. That isn't to say though that art style, sounds, video filtering features, etc. etc. won't be unique to TF2, similar to how DoD:S now has film-grain video filters.

    That's my 2 cents.
  • Fuse
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    Fuse polycounter lvl 18
    according to valve the next hl2 episode will ship with an all new multiplayer game ... perhaps tf2 ?
  • Frank
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    Frank polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    not the only opinion but he is the vice president of epic, thats some big guns right there

    [/ QUOTE ]
    And yet his opinion is just that, his opinion. It's completely innacurate to say something like 'Epic blasts episodic content' when one man who happens to work for Epic does so in an address. This was not an official announcement by the company, just his opinion.

    Frank the Avenger
  • hawken
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    hawken polycounter lvl 19
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    not the only opinion but he is the vice president of epic, thats some big guns right there

    [/ QUOTE ]
    And yet his opinion is just that, his opinion. It's completely innacurate to say something like 'Epic blasts episodic content' when one man who happens to work for Epic does so in an address. This was not an official announcement by the company, just his opinion.

    Frank the Avenger

    [/ QUOTE ]

    it's not really the sort of thing epic would officially announce though, and would be kinda strange if they did.

    so give us the scoop! is he living in a goldfish bowl or does he call the shots?

    When a VP of a company talks to croud of thousands about what he thinks the direction of whatever is his opinion, I think it's often taken as the companies opinion too, just like any other talk given by VP's from games companies. Might be wrong of me to write that epic as a whole has this opinion, however thats the image he has projected at the confrence.
  • ebagg
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    ebagg polycounter lvl 17
    I think naysaying a small trend is a bad thing. You never know when a small trend bursts out and becomes a big thing and you're forced to eat your words.
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    I think if the VP says it's not profitable it's safe to assume the company isn't going to do it.
  • malcolm
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    malcolm polycount sponsor
    I'm still pissed they said 24ish people and now they are saying it takes ten man years to make one level? F that. Isn't eposodic content just like console games? God of war 2 looks to have minimal gameplay changes since the first release and yet everyone wants it? I'd sure like it if Tomb Raider Legend released some new levels because I don't want to wait 4 years, I'm looking for some gameplay right now. For the record HL2 EP1 is a stand alone game allowing valve to include new tech and new enemies, or new whatever. And for those that played half life1 you will note it does not matter the stories do not connect to half life2, half life1 even had multiple endings, just pretend those didn't happen.
  • Kevin Johnstone
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    Kevin Johnstone polycounter lvl 19
    I personally don't care whether its a new IP, sequel or episodic update as long as it's a fun game.

    I'm not speaking for Epic as a whole either, this is likewise merely my own opinion

    r.
  • adam
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    adam polycounter lvl 19
    Half-Life 1 had multiple endings?
  • flaagan
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    flaagan polycounter lvl 18
    The only 'multiple endings' i remember were you:
    - accepted the gman's offer and went into temporal stasis
    OR
    - declined his offer, and were left to face that rather large Xen army.... which isnt really an ending, but moreso a "game over" without the red screen.

    And I must agree with Ror completely,
    [ QUOTE ]
    I personally don't care whether its a new IP, sequel or episodic update as long as it's a fun game.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    If I found hl2 ep1 or sin episodes to be unenjoyable, I'd probably have the same bitter attitude towards episodic releases as some members. However, I must add to Ror's comment by saying that episodic content, as well as any game, should be fairly priced both to be competitive and to be representative of the scale of game the player is purchasing. If Ep1 was priced like HL2, I seriously doubt anyone would even give it a second look. However, Valve priced it (and offered a preorder discount) at such a level that I believe was well understated to the scale of gameplay and story the player received; we got a bargain in my opinion. smile.gif
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    All I can say about the GMan's offer is that I didn't even know he was offering something, all I heard was him mumbling something that was drowned out by the elevator noise. Then a portal appeared and I ran through it since, well, portal is portal. The subtitles feature in HL2 was really necessary.
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    Track record shows this guy has no idea what he's talking about, and is simply pushing for the big bucks.

    [ QUOTE ]
    The low-cost chips are incapable of dealing with the graphics and computational power required for modern games.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    But they are still capable of dealing with FUN games. Honestly, I don't want to buy another graphics card.

    [ QUOTE ]
    "A new, boxed game has entirely new characters, content, storylines and an experience you have not had before. Developers have spent years making it."

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Space marines, big guns, aliens, carpal tunnel. What a new and exciting experience.

    This is the guy who bashed the Wii controller, and is now regretting his words.
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    But they are still capable of dealing with FUN games. Honestly, I don't want to buy another graphics card.

    The integrated chips will barely get a decent framerate at Quake 3. You can't have any complexity with those. Not even a basic RTS will work.

    Space marines, big guns, aliens, carpal tunnel. What a new and exciting experience.

    Yes but with episodes they couldn't even decide to drop that theme.
  • Lee3dee
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    Lee3dee polycounter lvl 18
    integrated graphic chips = non-unreal compatible hardware = comment made against intel.
  • malcolm
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    malcolm polycount sponsor
    If you don't like episodic content, don't buy it. Problem solved. I don't really see the difference between sequals and episodes except length of gameplay.
  • TomDunne
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    TomDunne polycounter lvl 18
    It seems to me that Mark Rein gets an awful lot of air time from bashing what others are doing. He bitches about Intel's integrated GPUs. He bitches about selling "pre-owned" video games. He bitches about games developed for the Wii controller. He bitches about episodic content. Is the guy like this all the time or does he just start crabbing about things when someone puts a microphone in front of him?
  • rooster
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    rooster mod
    all I know about the matter is I bought ep1 and sin, both were great fun and I want more smile.gif. I'm pretty sure that there will be a significant number of people who feel the way I do, and I hope the episodic content model takes off. I want to enable developers to take bigger risks because of smaller individual projects. Whether episodic content will do that I don't know, but I'd rather find out than keep things the same as they are now.
  • MoP
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    MoP polycounter lvl 18
    Words of wisdom from the rooster!
  • Zergxes
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    Zergxes polycounter lvl 18
    Given the sliding value of the dollar and the shrinking ammount of time I can really sink into games, I can definately see the value of shorter, cheaper games.
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