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9/11 Loose Change

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polycounter lvl 16
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adam polycounter lvl 16
If you have an hour and 21 minutes to spare, this is worth it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848&q=loose+change

Good watch.

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  • aesir
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    aesir polycounter lvl 13
    at least tell us what its about...
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 16
    Glad it's being revised as more is discovered over the years. I still remember the first edition, and the political debate months ago that I believe hawken started (using very sorry theories I may add once again). I added what I believed may have been the influence behind these acts by (or allowed by) our government. And what role Bin Laden actually plays. No one cared then. Doubt they'll care much more now. The important task during these times is to ask questions that aren't being answered. Over time the general public will begin to wake up.

    Someone recently said "the great american discussion is happening on the internet". The government underestimates this, even more so 5 years ago. We will find answers.
  • adam
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    adam polycounter lvl 16
    It's a documentary on information regarding the 9/11 attacks counter-acting the claim of terrorism. It's an interesting watch to say the least. I saw a flash one, which I believe is the one hawken posted, and thought that was OK. This is extremely indepth and educated.
  • oXYnary
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    oXYnary polycounter lvl 16
    There are plenty of points raised in it. Thanks Brome. However, before we go too far. The responding critics to the conspiracies. Has this gentleman responded to the critics as well? Or are these the same disproven conspiracies all over again?
  • aesir
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    aesir polycounter lvl 13
    yea, I remember the original flash.

    Im not exactly informed enough on the specifics of the situation to disprove or prove whatever is said in the conspiracy theory. It might be all true, or for all I know, they made up all of their facts.

    I'll wait till someone more reputable makes the same claims.
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 16
    [ QUOTE ]
    Has this gentleman responded to the critics as well?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    That's why it's the second edition. He covered several areas people asked about last time.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 16
    I haven't watched the new one so I don't know if it responds to the debunking article in Popular Science, here's the article for anyone interested: 9/11: Debunking The Myths
  • notman
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    notman polycounter lvl 16
    I stopped when this thing went into the same direction as the previous one. They are using documents and testing, in a one sided way to prove their argument. The crashing boeing was part of a study like car crash tests. The documents were all speculations for defense reasons. He's pointing out the target symbols on the trade towers. Overlooking the reasons why it may have been chosen. It's probably on the cover because it's been such a huge terrorist target.

    Anyways, I think people should question events, especially when it could be the government tricking the public, but in the case of 9/11, I don't believe in the conspiracies. JFK, maybe, but I think if the government wanted public support, they wouldn't have gone so big, nor needed to.
  • Joao Sapiro
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    Joao Sapiro polycounter
    they are hiding stuff, every governament does that on the cost of lives...but they believe they will save more if they destroy some...

    oh well...
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 16
    Justin: Popular Mechanics got it's FACTS from government sources...many of them admitting that previous government claims were wrong. Here are two of the more recent claims they use as FACT:

    [ QUOTE ]
    What was left of the plane flowed into the structure in a state closer to a liquid than a solid mass. "If you expected the entire wing to cut into the building," Sozen tells PM, "it didn't happen."


    "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Plane liquified, and destroyed. Wing markings, black box, and uniforms?

    More info I've picked up from right after 9/11:

    [ QUOTE ]
    Both black boxes from the hijacked aircraft which crashed into the Pentagon have also been recovered and turned over to the Federal Aviation Administration....according to a report in the Washington Times, investigators have so far failed to extract information from the Pentagon attack voice recorder because it was so badly damaged.

    The recorders are housed in immensely strong materials, such as titanium, and insulated to withstand a crash impact many times the force of gravity and temperatures of more than 1,000 degrees Celsius. The data collection devices - which are actually orange - are mounted in the tail of an aircraft.

    FBI Director Robert Mueller said Flight 77's data recorder provided altitude, speed, headings and other information, but the voice recorder contained nothing useful.

    Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld said the data on the cockpit voice data recorder was unrecoverable.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    The biggest cause of controversy here is the fact the government can't get its facts straight. That's leads to questioning. Most theories are to laugh at, but something is wrong.
  • Campaignjunkie
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    Campaignjunkie polycounter lvl 14
    I thought some of the evidence was kind of stupid (pamphlets with WTC under crosshairs) or even a little sexist (during the cell call, why weren't women screaming when someone got stabbed?). But some of the points were pretty sound to me, specifically how the plane that crashed into the Pentagon supposedly vaporized from the heat. I think something is definitely wrong with the current explanations, but I'm still not convinced that it's a mass conservative conspiracy within the US government.
  • oXYnary
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    oXYnary polycounter lvl 16
    None the less, why isn't the government being forth coming? I esepcially find the search and seizure of all the recorded automatic camera data from the cameraes on the feeway and the nearby hotel from the pentagon crash to be high irregular.
  • KeyserSoze
    [ QUOTE ]
    or even a little sexist (during the cell call, why weren't women screaming when someone got stabbed?)

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The guy didn't use the word "women," what he asked was "why is nobody in the background screaming?" I don't see how that is sexist in the least bit.

    [ QUOTE ]
    None the less, why isn't the government being forth coming? I esepcially find the search and seizure of all the recorded automatic camera data from the cameraes on the feeway and the nearby hotel from the pentagon crash to be high irregular.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    In addition to not being forthcoming, they've also done everything in their power to prevent an investigation. The first foreign attack on the continental United States in nearly 200 years, and they adamantly refuse to conduct an investigation, despite the fact that several of the alleged hijackers are still alive. There's something horribly wrong here.
  • Dukester
    this is one thing the internet does extremely well.
    accelerates the asanine conspiracy theories fast than would have been possible 20 years ago.
  • oXYnary
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    oXYnary polycounter lvl 16
    Duke.. you know, I listen to the other side. Can you? Will you sit through this? Can you? Are you trying to keep an open mind? Or would you rather have a world view that makes it easier for you to have borders (black/white issues)?

    Some of it is just happenstance. However, the facts remain. Im sure a reasonable person such as yourself can tell them apart.

    So instead of instantly dismissing this. Why dont you take a step forward?

    I double dog dare you.
  • Josh_Singh
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    Josh_Singh polycounter lvl 13
    [ QUOTE ]
    a world view that makes it easier for you to have borders (black/white issues)?

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Well his avatar is a zebra.
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 16
    and he's from texas, what do you expect? laugh.gif
  • Kevin Johnstone
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    Kevin Johnstone polycounter lvl 16
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 16
    well, that killed it. back to work.
  • KeyserSoze
    [ QUOTE ]
    this is one thing the internet does extremely well.
    accelerates the asanine conspiracy theories fast than would have been possible 20 years ago.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    What is it about this documentary that is asinine? It raises a number of legitimate questions and is very thorough with the information presented.

    What I find asinine is the fact that the government refuses to conduct any sort of investigation. This is one of the largest attacks this country has ever seen, and yet there has never been an investigation. What's even more asinine is how this event has been used to justify a war in Afghanistan, a dubious war in Iraq, and an erosion of civil liberties.

    Regardless of whether or not you believe the questions raised in this documentary are valid, Congress should commission an independent investigation of the events that took place on that day. There is absolutely no excuse for not doing so.
  • oXYnary
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    oXYnary polycounter lvl 16
    [ QUOTE ]
    My point is that if any of you had a point, you would have done like Slamminbeers and gone and started writing a book with the intent to put it out there in the hope that you would plant seeds.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Which is exactly what this person has done, except using video. I truly fail to see your point. Let me put this to you Ror. Would you rather live in blissful ignorance?
  • hawken
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    hawken polycounter lvl 15
    I drove through that town once
  • AstroZombie
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    AstroZombie polycounter lvl 15
    I am not 100% convinced that the events went down as the film maker would have you believe, but this reminds me of something one of my college English professors said:

    "Nazi Germany happened because no one believed that it could"

    Several years into the war, admist all the rumours, Ally troops were shocked and surprised when they found the Nazi concentration camps.

    Hard to believe that our own government would do such a thing, but is it possible?
  • Kevin Johnstone
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    Kevin Johnstone polycounter lvl 16
  • adam
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    adam polycounter lvl 16
    I'd like to see him elaborate on the light posts outside the Pentagon. He said they seemed to have "popped out". Would be interesting to see what sort of force would be needed to do this and what time or projectiles cause that force (missle, etc etc).

    Sucks not knowing the truth about things like this.

    *sigh*
  • hawken
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    hawken polycounter lvl 15
    Back on topic of the case in hand somewhat, the video I posted some time back (which was google video, not a flash video), had my accompaning text that tried to make myself sound as derranged as the video I just watched. When I came back to the thread it was a monster, which really does show that it's still a highly disscussed topic with loose ends.

    The majority of peoples responses were in the vain of "just accept it and get on with life" like Ror's comment above. But the ones willing to battle it out and not take it lying down, came up against fierce backlash from people willing to accept the goverments explanation fed through the american news media.

    As Ror's states, it's hardly going to change your life, whatever you believe. And even if you are sticking to your guns over what you believe, the possibility of change is so remote that it's not even worth thinking about.

    But that's how things change. There is the snowball effect, and if enough people stand up and think "hang on, that doesn't add up", there is enough room for change.

    It is my personal belief that this secretive stance of the USA gov is to the negative social effect, and should it change, the world would be a better place.
  • StrangeFate
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    StrangeFate polycounter lvl 16
    And yet, it seems you spend more time writing and thinking about this thread than anyone else.
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 16
    With education falling behind, the price of commuting cutting into living expenses, and medical attention being kept from the ones you care about...all you need is love.

    And perhaps a more effective ruling body to ensure a brighter future for your family. You do what's best for you and your family, Ror. That's understandable.
  • hawken
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    hawken polycounter lvl 15
    Post deleted by hawken
  • KeyserSoze
    Hawken, I believe he was responding to Rorshach's post.
  • hawken
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    hawken polycounter lvl 15
    I wonder if theres a way to upgrade this board to phpbb2?
  • PaK
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    PaK polycounter lvl 12
    seems like the guy is reaching a bit. most of the first 10 mins is circumstantial. The video quit on my after 10 mins.
  • CheapAlert
    [ QUOTE ]
    I wonder if theres a way to upgrade this board to phpbb2?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I suggested that once during the board outage of 04 and bear said no

    probably because he prefers paid software to be more secure
  • KDR_11k
  • Dukester
    Hmm, missed all this deleted stuff. Yap I'm from Texas so that could explain a lot smile.gif

    I haven't even watched the video and won't since I'm on dial-up, but I've read through a number of these threads on different mb's so I feel pretty confident in my blind assertion.

    I'm sick and I was drinking (The Balvenie 12 yr Doublewood smile.gif ), but thats nothing new, but it did give the courage to stick my nose in a thread where I had no business sticking it.

    Carry on with your discussion, sorry for any train wrecking I might have caused smile.gif
  • KeyserSoze
    [ QUOTE ]
    Carry on with your discussion, sorry for any train wrecking I might have caused smile.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Your post had nothing to do with the deleted posts. What you said was pretty much true; the internet is a breeding ground for conspiracy theories. Just as it is a source of massive amounts of information, it's also a source of at least an equal amount of misinformation. But I don't think that means everything like this should be immediately dismissed.

    Anyway, no need to apologize.
  • Frank
    [ QUOTE ]
    Someone recently said "the great american discussion is happening on the internet". The government underestimates this, even more so 5 years ago. We will find answers.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yeah, your comments on a message board will certainly show those government types that you are serious! You're yelling "Yeah! Yeah!" behind the guy asking the hard questions!

    Of course, they don't have to answer said questions, so I don't know what you think you're actually accomplishing. But hey, good on you for feeling all accomplished and rebellious and shit.

    And as for the 'no investigation' comments, what was this then?

    180px-911report_cover_MEDRES.jpg

    (I fully expect people to crow about how this was a govt investigation and therefore suspect, which I will happily grant, but as people were claiming there was never any investigation I figured maybe they would realize they were wrong...but then again this is the Internet...)

    Frank the Avenger
  • KDR_11k
    And as for the 'no investigation' comments, what was this then?

    A 180x253x24bit JPEG image made with Adobe Photoshop CS?
  • Frank
    Damn! The TRUTH comes out! tongue.gif

    Frank the Avenger
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 16
    You're right. I'm nothing. I have no role is this democratic government. My voice means nothing. My votes mean nothing. The opinions that make their way through group discussions mean nothing. The talk that finds its way through major news outlets means nothing. Is that your point?

    So did they investigate what provoked the attacks, or was it simply because "they hate our freedom?" I could care less what planes were used. That discussion is useless. The only way to know the truth is to find the source, instead of being misled by Washington's buzzwords and catch phrases. Unfortunately there are many on my side of the discussion that know nothing, adding fuel to the fire of those who believe any questioning is unpartriotic.

    When a drunk starts a topic, everyone joins in. When anything political begins, people jump in to stop it. Why is it so important to derail the discussion? Is it because you have nothing to contribute to serve as a counterpoint? When the President is asked tough questions, he starts making up words, mentioning people no one knows, or simply tries to make a quick exit. You start quoting books few have read like they're the word of god. Many sections of the 9/11 Commission report are still kept in secret. Some people in the world act as a voice, others act as support. If you have nothing constructive to add, take Ror's example and step out. What can be accomplished is that people will ask questions. When claims were made of Iraq having WMD, questions were asked. Later we find the claim was false, and years later those questions are justified. The administration is now careful of it's activities because the people still play a role in choosing who governs them. Or at least we still hope so.
  • KeyserSoze
    [ QUOTE ]
    And as for the 'no investigation' comments, what was this then?

    180px-911report_cover_MEDRES.jpg

    [/ QUOTE ]

    That's a report that was based on preexisting documents, several interviews, and a few investigations relating to the attacks (such as the investigations into the backgrounds of the alleged hijackers), but it was not an investigation itself. It is a report that used information that already existed.
  • KeyserSoze
    [ QUOTE ]
    When the President is asked tough questions, he starts making up words, mentioning people no one knows, or simply tries to make a quick exit.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    When has the President been asked a tough question? VERY rarely is he ever asked a tough question, since he surrounds himself with staged audiences who read their questions off of a Whitehouse teleprompter (I mean that as a metaphor, of course... I'm not suggesting that they literally read their questions off of a teleprompter, but they are scripted).
  • hawken
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    hawken polycounter lvl 15
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Someone recently said "the great american discussion is happening on the internet". The government underestimates this, even more so 5 years ago. We will find answers.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yeah, your comments on a message board will certainly show those government types that you are serious! You're yelling "Yeah! Yeah!" behind the guy asking the hard questions!

    Of course, they don't have to answer said questions, so I don't know what you think you're actually accomplishing. But hey, good on you for feeling all accomplished and rebellious and shit.

    And as for the 'no investigation' comments, what was this then?

    180px-911report_cover_MEDRES.jpg

    (I fully expect people to crow about how this was a govt investigation and therefore suspect, which I will happily grant, but as people were claiming there was never any investigation I figured maybe they would realize they were wrong...but then again this is the Internet...)

    Frank the Avenger

    [/ QUOTE ]

    yes lovely, a report that took years and is hald blacked out and written by bushes cousin.

    believe at your own peril
  • Eric Chadwick
    my tin foil hat is very comfortable.
  • KDR_11k
    Just make sure it's not actually aluminium foil, that amplifies the brain control waves.
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 16
    and aluminum can be absorbed into the body and collected in the brain over time, leading to dysfunction of impulses.
  • LordScottish
    [ QUOTE ]

    Hard to believe that our own government would do such a thing, but is it possible?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I don't have enough time to read me into this, but I would wonder what the motives for such an assasin would be. When it comes to JFK we have the motive to enter a war quicker for idealistic reasons (Stop the so called domino effect of communist countries) or economical reasons (rather not, since at that time many scientific studies have shown that war does not necessarily pay out from an economical point of view).
    What are the motives here? To attack Afghanistan? Why exactly? The oil obviously isn't the reason as the US are still bound to public international law and can't simply rob oil. And since the war the oil export of Afghanistan and Iraq have decreased, which is a bad result for any country depending on import oil.
    Any suggestions?
  • Eric Chadwick
  • Moz
    Just a question, how many people actually watched the whole movie? And all the so called tin foilers, how many of you actually read the 9/11 commission?
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 16
    [ QUOTE ]
    how many of you actually read the 9/11 commission?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    it's available online as a free PDF.

    and of course I watched the whole video.
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