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next gen woes?

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Ruz
polycount lvl 666
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Ruz polycount lvl 666
How are you all finding the next gen stuff, normal mapping and the like.
Part of me says, yeah this is fun , another part says I miss making mid range poly models and making a nice simple textures for them
there seem to be so many processes, plugins and other various annoyances before you can call a piece of work finished these days.

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  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    I hate keeping quads. I'm bad enough without restrictions, having to constantly bother about where I can cut an edge to get those damn quads is just restrictive. No ngons in Blender...
  • MoP
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    MoP polycounter lvl 18
    I'm enjoying both!

    I like the freedom that modelling in high-poly gives, and I haven't run into any major pitfalls (yet :P) with normal-mapping and baking textures, it's all working pretty smoothly for me.

    There's still plenty of time for "traditional" painted textures though, I'm doing some right now...
  • Ruz
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    Ruz polycount lvl 666
    MoP -I am finding that I am building a nice enough high res model, the normal map looks ok , but then When I put on my diffuse textures its just starts to look untidy/crappy
    I had a way of putting my own style on my previous texture work, but it seems harder to do that now.
    And jesus, painting at 1024x res as opposed to 256 is a whole different ball game.

    KDR_11k - I totally agree with you there, Trying to keep quads is a nightmare at times
  • MoP
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    MoP polycounter lvl 18
    I think keeping perfect quads only really matters if you need specific edge loop/ring selections, and in particular in facial modelling for accurate deformation.

    As Stahlberg and StrangeFate (both seasoned pros with high-poly modelling) say, you can get away with n-gons in a lot of areas.
    A triangle or a pentagon here or there is no harm if it smooths correctly, and if it doesn't get in the way of a good ring/loop selection.
    Keeping perfect quads everywhere is overrated IMHO ... I pretty much entirely work in triangles for low-poly models, and quads/tris/n-gons (whichever works best in a particular area) for high-poly models. After all, for game art at least, it's just gonna be smoothed for a render-to-texture, so it really doesn't matter how "perfect" or "clean" the geometry is, as long as it's easy to work with, and looks fine after subdivision.

    I guess if your modelling app is restrictive towards n-gons, that would be a bit of an annoyance...

    I used to hate painting textures at 1024x1024, but after doing a fair bit of texture painting for work this year at that resolution, I've warmed to it a little. I still prefer lower-res, since it's faster and easier, but 1024 is nowhere near as daunting to me now as it used to be.

    Ruz: If you're normal mapping, usually just having a normal-map and diffuse texture is gonna look pretty weird, you really need a good quality specular map (probably should work on it at the same time as the diffuse) in order for stuff to look right ... also a nice lighting setup is always helpful too. Don't forget the dirtmap/ambient occlusion/GI (whatever you want to call it) to add to your diffuse texture too, they go a long way towards making stuff look really cool.

    MoP
  • Ruz
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    Ruz polycount lvl 666
    yeah, I suppose I have only got to a certain stage with it and although my stuff is getting there, its just frustrating that i seem to have to start again after years doing smallish handpainted textures

    I suppose what bugs me most is that normal maps at least for heads and orgainc stuff have a tendency to look scruffy
  • Isis' Minion
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    Isis' Minion polycounter lvl 18
    I'm kind of getting bored with it, since people are going overboard with realism these day. It's nice to see the progression, but it's all a bit overkill if you ask me. I like stylized/simplified ('low-poly') models much better, since i already live in a realistic world. Realism appeals more to me in the form of movies, not games. With games i like 2D most, then simple 3D, then 'realistic' 3D. That's just personal though, i guess. I still like Ragnarok Online best when it comes to the style of MMORPGs, then WoW and then the other stuff smile.gif The higher the 'quality' (number of polygons) gets, the higher the amount of time put in to it gets. Most of the time i find the end result's look rather stale. Another argument is that if you bring in a lot more detail, people are going to be distracted by a lot more things.

    Though, as for the development techniques, i am interested in learning how they work, since it will be taking up a big part of the industry, probably.

    Personal-taste-wise i dont like it much, but i think it's a cool development which can be used to make some very cool games.
  • Rick Stirling
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    Rick Stirling polycounter lvl 18
    Quads? Quads are great, they keep a clean mesh. They are NOT needed everywhere. My rule of thumb is to keep every deforming joint as quadded as possible to prevent pinching.

    The nicest thing about quads is that they keep a mesh looking less cluttered.

    It's been said many times - work smarter, not harder. I know work won't care when I say that I've written a few scripts to automate things. One sets up the character folder, creates master and TGA texture folders, copies base checked textures into the TGA folder and sets up the max materials to be named and pointing at the TGA textures. All the characters artists need to do is save their textures over the copied base TGAs and the file naes are always correct. This helps the entire pipeline - artists have a little less boring work to do, and the coders have a naming convention.

    Ambient occlusion bakes? Yup a script that dupes the model, splits into seperate models based on material Ids, applys a gray material and loads a light rig, then bakes out AO maps.

    Once you get your head down and a few models built, it's easy enough.
  • Ruz
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    Ruz polycount lvl 666
    'I'm kind of getting bored with it'

    he he,I was just thinking that today after being excited about the new stuff initially.
  • JordanW
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    JordanW polycounter lvl 19
    I dont think there's anything to worry about. We're just in a changing time, where things are starting to be done a lot differently than before. Normal maps changed things a LOT in the fact that next gen doesnt just mean more polies, or high res textures. Shader passes are also somewhat of a change.

    I think once we get in good habbits and software develops a bit more everything will be fine. Granted normal mapping does have it's quirks at times and can be finnicky but it'll get better and become more streamlined (there are already better programs out there than others).

    It also bugs me when people say the use of normal maps and complicated shaders produces realism and leaves style in the dust. I think this is a misconception. You can do plenty of awesome stuff thats stylised and even do more than you could before with the new tech.

    All in all i dont think ppl should be worried about change smile.gif it's just a natural progression in this industry.
  • JO420
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    JO420 polycounter lvl 18
    I personally like it,the only issue i have is with the time it takes.

    but i like modeling both ways low and high poly,makes you think a little more, atm im working on this,been close to 5 days

    thronerender8ov.th.jpg


    edit:i know it aint pimping or previews but noone ever offers C&C on my work when i post in the what are you working on thread smile.gif


    i like being able to practice in both forms
  • SouL
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    SouL polycounter lvl 18
    Hate it.

    Too fussy, too convoluted, too confusing.

    I think in general the industry is too caught up at looking for that technological edge to increase visual quality. 2d was beaten to death... justifying the jump to 3d. But now... we're simply pushing through what can be done with 3d just because it generates buzz (doom3/UE3/etc). There's still so much that can be done with basic 3d.
  • palm
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    palm polycounter lvl 18
    I’m beginning to like the normal mapped pipeline more
    and more. But I agree on being just too much work
    for a single char. For an ex. It can take up to two
    bloody weeks, modelling and texturing.
    Looks like making chars these days are becoming
    more of a team effort.

    I agree with Soul.
    I think hf2 was a great example of a healthy mix of both technologies.
  • _Shimmer
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    _Shimmer polycounter lvl 18
    My personal opinion is:

    I hated normalmapping when appeared. I kinda cant stand to make a model all the day adding details over details then spend alot of time doing the lowpoly model then bake and bla bla.

    But time but time, I gonna used to it and I must admit: Its different but can be fun anyway. Especially with apps like Zbrush which gives you back the artist feel you always used to put in your models ages ago.

    Personally I have to learn a lot with hipoly modelling but i think at the end it looks better. I mean hey! Making games that look like some prerendered CG movies cant hurt anyone.

    As I told many others. Learn hipoly modelling with the normalmap stuff. What you personally use and preffer is up to you. ther is always a market for cellshaded games, or painted textures...hmm or PSP laugh.gif

    My 2 cents
  • pogonip
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    pogonip polycounter lvl 18
    Ive been diving into high poly now for a while teaching myself to model at high quality and I admit I dislike it . Spend a shit load of time cutting in detail that most people won't care about in the end . Doom 3 is a great example once the woe factor wore off on the graphics there wasnt much to the game play and so will it ever stand out like a Zelda game for example...no... I wish in this generation we could concentrate on better artistry and less on technology of graphics . Better gameplay and better AI... This character is a good example of how well a low poly character can be made and I see VERY few examples of Normal mapped characters that can compete in quality save maybe Epics characters . I'd be happy with characters that had this artistic quality and full rich worlds with detailed enviroments and good AI ..rather then some more shiney bumpy stuff ...

    http://www.xcloud.net/images/2004/f_general_n.jpg

    [Edited to make image into text link]
  • FunkaDelicDass
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    FunkaDelicDass polycounter lvl 18
    I've avoided high poly for now. I changed jobs to work on PSP games smile.gif
  • CMB
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    CMB polycounter lvl 18
    I've done a bit of highpoly,but I've tending to keep away from normal maps since they require allot more work.
    I completly agree pogonip.
    If I had a job in the gaming buiesness(Not time for me yet...) I would go with handheld 3d games since I like making painted diffuse freehand texture and they look beter then any normal mapped stuff.
    How am I finding the next gen stuff?
    Its fine and all...but how will it be in the futre?
  • palm
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    palm polycounter lvl 18
    You can’t stop progress. Better run with it or get overrun by it.
    Damn I feel smart now. wink.gif

    But seriously, I think the biggest setback, is the impact that it will have on the developers.
    It far more demanding making games with normalmapps etc, studios will either have to hire allot more artist or make smaller games.

    I’m just speculating now, but maybe it will become even harder for smaller studios to stay alive. I don’t think the publishers want to pay more to the developers and I have a hard time thinking the games will become more expensive in the stores. :/ Maybe. Thoughts?
  • JO420
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    JO420 polycounter lvl 18
    im actually focusing my normal mapping efforts into environments,which is what im gonna try to break in with and get good at.
  • Keg
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    Keg polycounter lvl 18
    Normal mapping for levels can be fairly useful if done properly. IE with HL2 you almost at times couldn't tell normal was there, but if you turned off normal mapping it'd make a noticable difference. proper subtle use of normal maps is what i'd like to see more of. although odds are we'll see more stuff like doom 3 which to me was abuse of normal mapping tech.

    One thing I'd like to possibly see is normal mapping combined with silhouette clipping as detailed here:
    http://people.deas.harvard.edu/~pvs/research/silclip/
  • pogonip
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    pogonip polycounter lvl 18
    What I would like is for us all to wait till computers/graphic cards are powerful enough for Displacment mapping and Global illumination then you will see some very striking diffrences in graphics ..not now when you have to pretty much have a direct light source on the normal mapped object to even see it has a normal map .. I can see GL and DispMaping being possible in the next 5 years now if only we can get the gameplay to be as good as the graphics are going to be .
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    Keg: A normalmap will force a different diffuse map with less painted lighting (looks damn flat without the NM), I wonder if HL2 would have looked bad with well painted diffuse textures?
  • Isis' Minion
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    Isis' Minion polycounter lvl 18
    I agree with pogonip. Better gameplay over everything. But nowadays publishers dont seem to care much about that any more. As long as the game looks good, it will sell. confused.gif

    Most of the FPS are turning into variations on the first Half-Life, imo. I don't really bother with them any more.

    Due to the fact that it takes more time (money) to make models, i think we won't see as much new and innovative games any more, since those are a risk for the publisher. We'll probably end up with Doom 23, Half-Life 42, Quake 15, SSX 51, etc, etc.

    But once again, my main argument:
    Why add more detail? It will increase the chance that the player might miss something important, because it doesn't stick out any more in the whole picture. And look at the Red Cloud pic up there. I think that is the level of detail that is perfect for games.
  • pior
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    pior grand marshal polycounter
    I'm with Isis... to a certain extend.

    Normalmap useage does not mean ultradetailled assets, to me it's just a great tool to get better surface definition which is a bit different. One could use Nmaps to smooth things or give some areas more definition without going stellar. Right?

    Not every button/bolt/piston/wire has to be put in that...

    I *think* the huge advantage of currentgen/oldgen engines is the way they forced a strong separation between 'largescale' shapes (in this case the 3d model) and 'smallscale' details (the painted texture).

    Keeping these 2 levels separated is something important in traditionnal art and it has translated very well in games like the first MGS (ultralow texture resolution on strongly optimized models giving the game a kind of abstract look) or the Wipeout series (solid shapes against perfectly balanced color themes) which were both severly limited by the 95 playstation hardware.

    On the other side of the spectrum some characters in UT2004 started to look a tad overdetailled and were a bit confusing to read.

    I think it's easy to forget about these simple rules when working highrez or normalmappy, since one is often working on tiny areas without looking at the whole picture. Hence a solid planning is required beforehand (as always ... laugh.gif ).

    I believe the work Hawkprey did for the UT2007 reddish character, and the resulting game asset produced by the team, realy sells the nextgen tech. It's awesome to see how the concept is soo strong even if almost monochromatic. It gave birth to a beautiful game asset, instantly recognizable from a distance, not THAT highly detailled, but getting the most of what nmaps can offer.

    Plus hybid assets are possible too, like, nmapped armor against a traditionnally painted 256 head texture. I think that can look great. I guess it's close to what has been described above with the HL2 example.

    I think it's very exciting!
  • hawken
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    hawken polycounter lvl 19
    I don't think we'll ever see realtime GI

    Instead, tricks and new methods will make graphics look better.
  • CrazyButcher
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    CrazyButcher polycounter lvl 18
    we'll definetely see some fake realtime GI so, and I wouldnt use the word never wink.gif

    the dynamic ambient occlusion demo by nvidia and the stuff about spherical harmonics was already quite nice to see.

    as for the topic, I am currently more on the "tech side" and its fascinating what you can do with the shader stuff, indeed most prominent might be normal mapping, but if you take for instance the specular shine of asphalt in many race games these days, which is just a simple pixel shader, but makes the surface just a lot more cooler.

    also blooming, glow, and other shaders will add to a much greater variety in the looks.
    why we dont see this variety so much yet, is simply that there is still a lot of older hardware around, but I think that especially the new consoles ahead we will see a lot more stylized stuff.

    however I also think that with modelling every nut and bolt, a bit too much is done on the art side, while the game might suffer. I just wonder if the money the art costs is really worth it, I remember playing mohaa some years ago, and while not nextgen or so, they had those really hi detail dds textures, and there was one mission where you'd blow up a submarine. What surprised me is the amount of detail that went into the sub and its textures, considering that you only went in planted the bomb, ran out, which lasts like a few seconds...
    also about the hi poly detail stuff, someone here had actually posted a sort of blend technique of mixing painted bump maps with generated normal maps, so that you mostly use the normal maps for smoothing detail, but not model every bit in the hi poly model, which looked to me to a quick and easy method of generating normal maps... however I am not really into production using next-gen stuff so...

    in general I think the development around graphics is definetely cool, as progress is unstoppable anyway. however as others mentioned, ultra tech graphics arent everything, the game and the general mood is what counts, and I can still enjoy playing SNES games or other lowtech stuff, however the design/game is so well and "round" in itself, that its fun to play and look at.
  • Hooker with a Penis
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    Hooker with a Penis polycounter lvl 18
    Frankly, I don't enjoy making next-gen artwork. The programming is great, I love messing around with stuff with it, but making the artwork for crap like normal mapping and stuff.. it's just no fun for me, I don't like it. I prefer the old way of making low poly (and I'm not talking about the 'new' low poly of 3-4,000 polygons, I mean 800-1,500) models and trying to fit as much detail as I can into 256x256 or 512x512 textures (thankfully, 512x512 is still in use).
  • Fuse
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    Fuse polycounter lvl 18
    i also think people are too caught up with the whole next-gen technology

    i think valve pulled it off nicely by using subtle normal maps on their characters/creatures ... and yet they still painted their textures traditionally, more or less ..

    games are becoming technology demonstrations rather than actual fun

    I mean Unreal 3.0 surely looks spectacular, but i've become kind of immune to it now, i expected Epic to push gameplay/story/plot of their next-gen game as far as they pushed the technology and frankly i am quite dissapointed with what Gears of War seems of offer. To me it looks very generic. I mean, why spend all that time and money into a generic game when you can try new things and try to be original and innovative.

    infact, i think Prey does that somewhat well ... At least they are introducing some interesting elements into the experience and having their own take on things, even if it is powered by next-gen technology
  • Daz
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    Daz polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    and yet they still painted their textures traditionally, more or less ..

    [/ QUOTE ]

    weren't much paintin' goin' on there actually. Largely photoslappin' ;-)

    World Of Warcraft to me is a perfect example of a video game experience that is utterly beautiful to behold, and an incredibly immersive, compelling game experience to boot, but with pretty modest use of technology.
    The immediate environment that surrounds you is pretty low poly, but all painted with very nice cohesive textures, and the world is so vast, the whole experience just feels incredibly rich.
    My point being, you don't have to use all the graphical bells and whistles available to us to make a compelling game.
    That said, I am so jealous of you lot that are, because I for one, am ready to throw the PS2 devkit out the window. I am so utterly sick to death of how that machine holds me back in what I want to achieve.

    Bring it.
  • EarthQuake
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    Wow, you guys sure are stuck in your ways arent you? Me personaly i LOVE modeling high poly, its much more fun not having crappy little limitations that do nothing but hold back the overall quality of your work(Low res textures, low polygons) I know some people will try to tell me you can still do awesome models with a 256x256 and 1000 polygons but i think its totaly BS, they will look good from far away or at 320x240 res but one you get close it turns to a mass of blured-out crap, even the most detailed textures. The preconceptions most people seem to have about normal mapping making things look a certain way and negating any style are just very very silly and make me think that you just need to play with the tech yourselfs, and stop using doom3 as your reference for next-gen tech. If you all havent noticed doom3 and farcry are actually current gen tech, games that were started in 2001 or 2002. Its 2005 people, real next gen stuff you should be looking at gears of war and similar games and i really have NO CLUE how any of you can say you would prefer anything done the old way as being better than something like that. Sure not all next-gen games will look that good but most of the old games were not as good as the games you people will talk about as the height of low polygon models either, so its all about art quality and having people that know how to use the tech right and has very little to do with cheap shiney/bumpy effects. It is true that some studios are going a little overboard with the "realism" stuff and that some more artistic style into the work would be nice to see but game art is evolving into something much more similar to film work where the goal is simply to "Make it look real" to add to the overall immersion of the game i guess, if you cant tell a video game from a movie just imagine how immersed you could become into it? Im not saying thats even necessarily true but im pretty sure thats the general theory right now.

    As far as gameplay goes, i dont understand how this gets brought up every time someone mentions better graphics, like improving the art automatically degrades the gameplay.
    [Edit] Does anyone actually believe that if games werent spending a lot of time working on higher quality art assests that there would be a surge in new and unique gameplay? Fuck no there wouldnt, you would see the same games you're seeing now just churned out faster and for less money. Sure you will always find a couple cool games that offer something new but this will remain the same with next gen tech. Publishers like games that they know will sell, not that they think are unique.

    That said, does anyone have a faster way for baking GI lightmaps in max? i've used standard radiosity and light tracer and they are both very slow when it comes to 1024s, 2048s and god forbid a 4096.

    [Edit again] Pogin could you link to that image instead of posting it directly? It breaks the entire thread unless you're at some very high widescreen resolution.
  • StrangeFate
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    StrangeFate polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    I mean, why spend all that time and money into a generic game when you can try new things and try to be original and innovative

    [/ QUOTE ]
    I think this has been discussed often enough, Publishers DON'T WANT original and innovative stuff. Same old stuff with 1-2 original/improved keywords to stand out from the croud, and you're all set. Make something original and you won't get a deal, too much risk to flop to them.
    That's how it is, period.

    Prey doesn't seem original or innovative to me, it's a straight shooter with some puzzles. Along those lines you could say all the scrypted monsters spawning in Doom3 was innovative too, since it's something you usually don't see in other games.


    I personally like next gen, i wouldn't want to go back to the old stuff again. I enjoy hipoly too much.
    You're all a bit too quick to judge the effect of next gen costs on gameplay. The part of the industry going next gen is in a transition time, and those have always been bloody.

    Studios are still discovering outsourcing, finding proper partners for that, trying to find and hire skilled people that can efficiently do the job and a lot of people already working with the tech on a product are still learning the tech and hipoly themselves. That wastes a lot of money and time.
    There's gonna be some next gen crap and studios in trouble in the first round of next gen games, but once everybody is used to the new things and found proper ways to deal with the costs/time needed, and the higher costs become standard it will be all like it is now again imo.
  • Ruz
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    Ruz polycount lvl 666
    Well another week has passed and I am finding ways to improve both my skills and workflow.
    I think this still possible to to stylistic work once you get over that shiny normal mapped look.
    I just manged to get the hang of z brush a bit more this weekend also.
    I can finally paint fine detail with out making 'dotted' lines

    i am still finding that doing this high poly stuff is making me more tired generally
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    Is there any realistic chance of getting good looking organic stuff in reasonable time without ZBrush?
  • MoP
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    MoP polycounter lvl 18
    Yes. It's called practise, expertise and knowledge smile.gif
  • Ruz
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    Ruz polycount lvl 666
    KDR_11k - i am doing most of the work in max, then painting on surface detail ( fine wrinkles) in zbrush
    Its just sesm much more contrrollable that way
  • Isis' Minion
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    Isis' Minion polycounter lvl 18
    EarthQuake, i like the difference between games and movies. If games were to be almost the same as movies, i don't think i would enjoy them as much. It might be good for some genres, like racing games, war sim games etc, but i love Quake 3. With the coming of the new technology and the 'realism' hype, there will be no more games with wacky physics, simple effecient level designs and so on.

    I guess it's more of a 'Arcade vs Simulation' situation, which i'm talking about. I'd hate to see the 'arcade' games go, since those are the games i have most fun with.

    On the other hand, i'm also getting the hang of Zbrush and i must say it's a pretty nice workflow smile.gif
  • EarthQuake
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    "With the coming of the new technology and the 'realism' hype, there will be no more games with wacky physics, simple effecient level designs and so on." What are you talking about? Why does next gen seem to mean total lack of creativity to most people here? I really dont understand it at all. Just because something may look realistic dosent mean it cant be fun to play. Ill say it one last time graphics do not equal gameplay.
  • CrazyButcher
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    CrazyButcher polycounter lvl 18
    also with normal mapping and shaders you can do a lot more than photo realism, actually you can do everything but photorealism wink.gif
    And stuff like unreal3 is still heavily stylized and far from reality, or can you carry a giant armor and a big f***in gun, same goes with the super contrasty colors in farcry or other games. we basically talk movie graphics imo and you will find that movies have their own depicition of reality and play a lot with lighting... as well, and looking at movies like "Big Fish" you can do a lot with "reality" wink.gif

    I would also say that the arcade stuff is still out there and will be there, definetely would say a lot of nintendos games are like that.
  • EarthQuake
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    Right, CB hits on some really good points here, new tech allows for much much cooler things to be done with your fantasy type games and things similar to that. Thats where you will start to see the true unique shaders and effects being used.
  • Isis' Minion
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    Isis' Minion polycounter lvl 18
    Meh...i guess i was just talking about the physics mostly. When graphics get more realistic, the physics usually do as well (which means no bunnyhopping frown.gif )...

    Anyways, I did some thinking and it might be cool to have WoW in-game look more like the intro CG movie. I'll just stop whining and see how it turns out first. smile.gif The new Resident Evil and Gears of War are looking good so far.

    I just hope that graphics wont get a higher priority than gameplay, in the time to come.
  • Scott Ruggels
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    Scott Ruggels polycounter lvl 18
    I was thinking about starting a topic like this, but held off, as I didn't want to sound so doom and gloom.

    Our company is making the switch to producing next generation graphics. The biggest hits I have seen are learning curves, and time. Learning curves are temporary.

    The examples are assuming 8 -10 hours a day or production at a company, not hobbyist rates of production:

    Quake2 Style Asset took about 2 days to create the mesh (you needed a nights rest to look at the model with fresh eyes in the morning to make sure it didn't suck, or that you may have overlooked a construction error.), two or three days to create the texture map. and a couple of days to animate them. Some people took more time, some less. but in general you had an in game asset in a week.

    Cut to Quake 3. The asset creation took a little more time, 2 -3 days for the geometry, maybe 3 or four days to do the various texture maps. A day to fix the Tags, and troubleshoot import issues, and the animation was a little more complicated, as it all had to be in a row, so it might take a little more than a week, so the development time would take 2 and a half to three weeks.

    Unreal Tournament took less time, provided you used default animation, but animating them from scratch, to work well took a lot more time, so assets may take around a month.

    On our project, that I cannot go into details, with our old pipeline, it took about a month to create a creature,from start t to finish, provided there weren't any export issues.

    No making the switch, asset creation may balloon into 2 months per creature. The "in game Asset's geometry isn't much more complicated in terms of polygon count or rigging, but the High polygon asset seems to be a drain, as well as the higher number of maps for the various shaders. Now this may make things good for the level designers, as they don't have to account for new creatures to populate levels until the old ones are tested and tuned, and Environmental Art is going to blossom like we have never seen before, but for the Character guys, this may be the first time that programmers and designers will have to wait around for us, rather than the other way around where we finish the model, and surf while the others crunch.

    I am trying to learn techniques that are above all fast, because even if the budgets for Next Gen Titles grow, to Hollywood proportions, It is doubtful that the schedules will follow suit.

    On the other hand, there are advantages for a guy like me, who loves geometry, and loves animating, but thinks that UVW Mapping and texturing is the equivalent of eating the contents of a baby's diaper with a spoon. Because the diffuse maps are now medium saturation, medium tones that look like swatches of house paint, filled into the Photo shop Lasso Tool, and the follow on maps are either generated from the geometry (Baked in GI maps, Normal Maps), or are just swoops and swipes of various brushes and filters following the rules of anatomy and material science (Skin is oily especially at the forehead and the bridge of the nose, Metal is shiny, unless rusty.) So for me it makes some parts easier.

    It also allows me to "play" a little more in the design, and see if I can make convincing form, to put all that anatomy knowledge to work, to impress.

    For those that like " heavy stylization or abstraction" in their games, well unfortunately the bulk of the market is against you. The conceptual end goal of the gaming market is either the "Holodeck" or "Virtual Reality" where things are defined by "Dramatic Realism, and a high degree of Verisimilitude, where you can screw, or look like supermodels, Cleave out empires with a sword in your hand or magic in your staff, or command minions to conquer the stars in your name. Games these days not only have to be fun, but they have to be immersive, escapist, slightly addictive, and entertaining. Above all Gaming is a business, and we are here (most of us) to create compelling assets.

    The "toon Shaded" version of Legend of Zelda has now been acknowledged by it's creator to have been in error. The latest incarnation seems to have an art style much closer to that of "Shrek", except with Manga proportions and character designs, appropriate to the cultural expectations and desires of it's home market. And as Cool as Psychonauts may be, or Grim Fandango, were those A level profit centers?

    ..and it's looking at the business side of things, especially the schedules, that makes me worry. Games with these sorts of time restrictions are not going to have a lot of Variation in Creature. types, except maybe map variations. They may have extensive and beautiful environments, but closer inspection may reveal a commonality of architectural elements, as well as the ubiquitous crates and barrels. But this time it won't be a case of the machine limiting the scope of the assets, but the time needed to create them. Unless the schedules expand out to the luxuriant levels of primary Console Developers in Japan of 3 years plus, I don't see a lot of breadth or scope in the next gen just yet. Plenty of opportunity for a unique visual experience, just not a deep one.

    The other thing I am worried about is specialization. The era of the "Character guy may be passing, where the asset is the result of a group of specialists, such as Concept artist, Modeler, High Poly Modeler, TD/Rigger, Dynamics Rigger, Diffuse texture mapper, Shader texture mapper, Shader writer,animator or Motion capture editor, Asset Wrangler, and finally AI implementer and tuner. You know what that sounds like? the production pipeline of a Hollywood feature Special Effects house. Not that such is a bad thing... but... it effects employability and job security directly. Few artists have good heads for math or programming. Artist Programmers are rare, and tend to get the best jobs, so the more common "art Trained" production person who does Modeling or Texturing becomes of less value and more common, TD's who understand animation and performance, will rise to the top, as will those that tinker with the shader makers. Now I do like to tinker a bit, in them, but command lines are the tools of the devil. Once upon a time they tried to make a synergy of games and movies and turned out crap like "night Trap", but now, the budgets, the pipelines, and the corporate risk aversion due to those budgets are resembling Hollywood down to the print ads in Variety, and the exotic cars in the executive parking lots...

    Is that a good thing or something to be worried about?

    Scott
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    The "toon Shaded" version of Legend of Zelda has now been acknowledged by it's creator to have been in error.

    Actually they said they wanted to show the world of the young Link in a different tone than the world of the old Link. Whether that's ass-covering I don't know but the explaination does make sense.


    I'm pretty sure what we're witnessing is the slow evolution into Hollywood. We're the old style art critics that gets more and more pushed aside by the mindless mass-media consumer. Because we don't bring in the money. Capitalism is wonderful, isn't it?
  • aesir
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    aesir polycounter lvl 18
    Wow Scott. You have some great insights in there that really helped explain a lot of how the industry is working and probably will work to me. I have to admit that the most worrying factor for me is that jobs will become more and more specialized. I love trying to be good at almost everything, and I dont think I'd enjoy being stuck just working on one type of shader for the length of my job.

    As far as the lack of wild design and style, I think most of you are wrong in that regard. Sure, for the next few years or even decade, realism will definitely be practically everywhere. However, I think that as technology evolves, more and more stylized games will be developed. Hell, look at hollywood. Movies have the best gfx of any media if they want it, yet pretty much none of the cg movies that have come out have been trying for realism.

    Regardless, we'll wait and see smile.gif
  • Scott Ruggels
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    Scott Ruggels polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]

    I'm pretty sure what we're witnessing is the slow evolution into Hollywood. We're the old style art critics that gets more and more pushed aside by the mindless mass-media consumer. Because we don't bring in the money. Capitalism is wonderful, isn't it?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well I love it as it keeps me employed and entertained and able to buy what I like.

    Scott
  • DeathTrip
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    DeathTrip polycounter lvl 18
    The cars will be comprised of 40,000 exterior polygons and 40,000 interior polygons. This is a huge leap when compared to the 10,000 total polygons used on the vehicles of PGR2.
    http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/636/636132p1.html

    for anyone working on nextgen titles, is this reasonable/possible polycount or just PR bs to hype the public? i'm thinking its the latter...
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    Perhaps they mean "total" as in "total per scene"? [/advocatus diaboli]
  • Scott Ruggels
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    Scott Ruggels polycounter lvl 18
    They are probably about right , but also probably have some LOD in there as well, at last for the cars, because cars don't have a lot of per vertex transformations, neighther do buildings, and if one reduced the number of shaders on objects, like the exteriors, one can reduce the number of render passes, increasing the performance. So the cars probably look excellent, and the background adequate as a blurry motion past your windows. Interiors probably rarely are seen, unless yu look around or look at the car in the "Show room" menu. Most of the interior of a car you see when you drive are the windows, the instruments and the roof pillars. Even if you have every pleat in the hupholstryl lovingly modeled, if' it's never seen, it's never drawn.

    Scott
  • Omar_Nabiev
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    Omar_Nabiev polycounter lvl 18
    Actually, i love normalmapping since that tech first came out, and personally think that normal/displaced/realtime shaders stuff is the future. But not all next-gen stuff looks good in various games, some companies just 'plug' that feature to meet todays standarts.. and the game models looks like a 'Next gen normalmapped-crap'.

    Nabiev Omar
  • dabu
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    dabu polycounter lvl 18
    I have to say, the current limitations we're under for the vehicles in our game bum me out. I don't need a lot more than what we have now, I would be very happy with a 4k and one 512 budget. That would give me enough room to embelish surface details that would be noticeable, instead of trying to crimp and cram as much as I can out of 1300 polies and a single 256 map. I still am not ready to dive into high poly modeling, but mid poly is where its at. With more memory, I would like to see more convincing depictions of outdoor driving environments. Part of what breaks the illusion for me is that we don't have enough budget to fill our streets with 20 different unique car models and 30 different types of low poly civillians. The art doesn't take that long to make at a lower budget, so if next gen means a little more detail and a lot more variety, bring it I say.
  • Ruz
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    Ruz polycount lvl 666
    anyone finding they are not being given enough time , or are you finding it a comfortable transition?
  • EarthQuake
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    As far as the polygon couts for PGR3, thats totally reasonable... Polys really arent that much of a big deal anymore, its all the large textures/multipass shaders that kill your framerate. We've been doing some scenes that have upwards of 400k polys with realative ease.
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