i dont know anything about it, i was making jokes about the steam part playing off from zetheros
but the letter part I am raising a hypothesis to make the point that there's lots of viable speculations we can make. in the end it is only that - speculations.
if the thread had started more with hypothesis and less with conclusions it would probably be more well accepted. Like, "This game is reported to have not met sales targets, what effect might the character art have had on that outcome? Is there any lesson to learn?"
rather than, "the main character lost the gene lottery, I think she is ugly, a bunch of guys on youtube told me this so it's also the most likely reason sales targets fell short"
This discussion is getting spacious on the main landing page of polycount. Multiple occurences where there could be art. Can this be tuned down to one link please. None preferred.
This discussion is getting spacious on the main landing page of polycount. Multiple occurences where there could be art. Can this be tuned down to one link please. None preferred.
"Best Of: Everything" is driven by you the users, it shows anything with 3 or more upvotes. Alternatively, you can hit the Front Page button instead for a more curated list (albeit less often updated). There's also the + button to show a list of all posts with the most recent upvotes (1 or more) for the masochistic.
@Alemja - I think it really comes down to the project and pipeline. When dealing with 100's of characters it helps to have all the information we can input into the system, and certainly the approach is to get close to the visual target but with automation driving input, good to have those values especially for clothing fit and simulation.
And conversations around characters cup/band size have never gone in that direction precisely because the values do most of the work. It allows for less reliance on proportion, volume and shape since the cup band size is more for the clothing than the body given the way these systems work. Its mostly there to establish averages and then tweak it to match the photo reference. Really isnt' all that different from shoe size when you think about it, since the eventual result is still an approximation.
And yes the thread was about Star Wars Outlaws underperforming despite all the controversy around Kay's face, but unfortunately Kays face has become central to the discussion once more. I titled the thread in that manner as a follow up to my previous thread.
About the Concord marketing using rainbows, I did wonder if it was inspired by the star trek posters of the 70's but I still don't understand if that market would actually even play Concord.
Unfortunately many gamers today would likely put rainbows and pronouns together and see it as some kind of DEI conspiracy, which is sad but its difficult to sway their perspective, maybe distracting them with gameplay is a better option but there really was just too much going against Concord to make it a success.
And the controversial views of the designers didn't help their situation. I really do feel that all developers need to reflect on "my views are my own" and companies need to release strict guidelines of how to respond to social media vitriol. The trend I noticed is that usually the criticism starts on more obscure forums and tries to entrap a dev who then ropes in a journalist and the whole discussion turns into a cesspool, when the dev should never have been involved in the first place.
Even if a dev gets a death threat it needs to be escalated to the studio and relevant authorities, not lead to a slagging match on twitter/x.
Its good to have a presentation shot of the Kay Vess model and these were the artists in charge. Achielias(Archie) Debecker did the outfit https://www.artstation.com/artwork/AZq82X
And I'm assuming from his post that the face model was done by Jefferson Estrabinio and Oskar Lundqvist
I'll try to get more information on the visual target for her face, since ubisoft recently commissioned a live action short featuring an actor for Kay with a totally different face and hairstyle. She also has a lighter skin tone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqzDN2nlPYY&t=2s
Maybe the Kay Vess model will be changed to match this actress for any future releases? Not sure why they didn't just match Humberly or have Humberly act in the short film, Ubisoft certainly has the budget for it. Nyx looks like a gremlin though, so not sure what happened there, and personally I found the film to be quite terrible in concept and execution.
Ubisoft admitted that the game underperformed and even impacted their Assassins creed release. So I'm thinking they might try to do more with Lando Calrissian and have Kay's story continue around him to give it more foundation and depth tying it closer to the core star wars universe.
Thanks for sharing more information about top surgery scars and the different options available in gender affirmation surgeries. I did reach out to the DA team internally to ask if it was still possible to add some UI element that could link to causes like the Ali Fourney Center though I haven't heard back yet.
I am looking forward to see if the inclusion of scars was purely cosmetic or has some relevance to the story line, but there have been concerns about the character creator being limited in scope towards breast augmentation and another concern that the heads are too large through that seems to have been a stylistic choice.
I am trying to get more information on the art direction and why they chose this approach compared to previous releases of Dragon Age, but given the way studio operations work, we don't always get to see the internal process and even if we do we can't always share it publicly
i recommend EA sports games for a great example in how to do extensive facial animation with proprietary solutions. Every face in FC, NHL, UFC has so many subtleties in their animation and expressions, its very commendable to see them continuously iterate to make it more realistic and immersive for players.
I don't think that was Ubisofts focus at all. Their games seem to be designed to not frustrate players and get a product out into the market. I do wish that there was more sharing of technology between studios through patent licensing that way EA's tech could have been applied to Ubisofts character models to make them feel more alive and less plasticky.
Maybe negative press just isn't good press to investors who likely are wondering why Black Myth Wukong, Helldivers and Stellar Blade are performing better than big budget releases connected to popular licenses?
Like I get that the Park Place and the like are pushing some anti DEI agenda to counter what they believe is ubisofts agenda, but the only way to shut them down is to either listen to feedback (the genuine one atleast) or push a release to a market that willingly and loudly accepts the product drowing out subversive voices.
But seriously though, that whole Sweet Baby Inc situation should never have been allowed to escalate. It started with 40 people posting on Neogaf and a sweet baby inc employee trying to get a anti DEI advocate banned from steam ballooned the latters community into a 450,000 strong force of boycotters.
And sure maybe many might be bots, but it was just better to let that thread on Neogaf die and escalate any death threats privately to the authorities.
Like I worry about Unknown 9: Awakening which had recruited SBI as a consultant. The studio is local to Montreal and supported by Bandai and if you go through the comments on their latest music video trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SulTrcIfce8
It really isn't a good look at all and I would hate to see a studio shut down because of some rubbish about a DEI conspiracy. It was critical for Sweet Baby Inc to reel in its employees and release a statement to safeguard the interests of their clients and I find it unfortunate that this did not happen. Like this game is really going to have to push its marketing and gameplay to cut through all the criticism of its assumedly woke agenda that could very well sink the entire studio. Ubisoft can weather the storm and atleast Bandai can absorb any loss of revenue, but the game suffers and its really not great being an artist on a game that's humiliated and shamed all over the internet like what has befallen Concord.
Personally I would take 450,000 guaranteed sales over 450,000 boycotts going rabid on twitter trying to get Trump re-elected.
* they don't all support Trump. I actually joined their discord looking to mediate and found that they were looking for better writing and gameplay but were usually dismissed by the more vocal and extremist among the gaming dev and media left like from Kotaku and Sweet Baby Inc and those that support them. It was interesting the Elon musk retweeted the actions of SBI employee Chris Kindred who was responsible for escalating the situation. I even tried to reach out to Chris and the owners of SBI to offer to handle their PR for them but was blocked by all of them.
I wouldn't lump however many people that are in the 'sweet baby inc detected' steam group in with the MAGA crowd dude. Most of the players who 'oppose DEI' aren't racist, anti-trans etc - they're actually calling for better writing and art in games, and this is their means of expression. As a game dev you're supposed to translate the incessant demonic howling noises from players into something more literate and comprehensive.
A lot of this is symptomatic of cost cutting measures; removing highly paid top talent and replacing them with juniors, as well as MBAs literally strip mining our industry from the top down.
I disagree sort of.. in my experience the quality of a large game has very little to do with the ability of most of the staff involved. As a group grows larger, the overall quality of the group's output trends towards average because most people are in fact average - what separates one group from another in terms of output quality is how much time they spend uplifting their average results with cycles of critique and iteration. There are very few actually pivotal people in a given studio and those that really are tend to be the ones making the high level decisions regarding game design/art direction
The problem in my view is that we are dealing with Investors rather than game publishers in a post-fortnite world and to accommodate this we've switched focus from generating a product in order to get the next chunk of budget to generating proof that we've all been very busy ticking things off a list - player experience isn't a metric that really comes into the finances.
I wouldn't lump however many people that are in the 'sweet baby inc detected' steam group in with the MAGA crowd dude. Most of the players who 'oppose DEI' aren't racist, anti-trans etc - they're actually calling for better writing and art in games, and this is their means of expression. As a game dev you're supposed to translate the incessant demonic howling noises from players into something more literate and comprehensive.
A lot of this is symptomatic of cost cutting measures; removing highly paid top talent and replacing them with juniors, as well as MBAs literally strip mining our industry from the top down.
Very true, I was pointing out how many claiming to defend SBI, see the SBI detected group as a right wing conspiracy.
Not everyone on the SBI detected group support Trump. I actually joined their discord looking to mediate and found that they were looking for better writing and gameplay but were usually dismissed by the more vocal and extremist among the gaming dev and media left like from Kotaku and Sweet Baby Inc and those that support them.
It was interesting that Elon Musk retweeted the actions of the SBI employee who was responsible for escalating the situation publicly denoucing him. The employee had completely resigned hilself from public life though he came back on twitter recently and is distancing himself from the controversy which I feel is a good thing and how he should have reacted from the very beginning.
At the time when the situation was escalating, I even tried to reach out to him and the owners of SBI to offer to handle their PR for them but was blocked by all of them.
My intent was to de-escalte since I knew their approach would only make the curator grow exponentially and also feared for Unknown 9 Awakenings release since the protagonist in that game is of Indian descent (rare in games) and the story of that game is set in India and derived from Indian lore (Mauryan emperor Ashoka and the 9 unknown)
And I wasn't satisfied with SBis involvement though I don't know the details of what they influenced.
Like reflector has decided to have the actor behind Haroona have an Indian accent instead of have her converse in Bengali and Sanskrit with subtitles which would have added far greater depth to her character. They also made her darker skinned and honestly should have just gone with an actress from India who actually understands the subject matter.
But the devs did research and hire consultants to better understand and be faithful to the setting in many respects, I just don't understand how SBI which mostly has employees with writing, literature, acting and liberal arts backgrounds would sincerely be able to consult on such a project.
When I first heard of them I assumed to find their employees with doctoral backgrounds in research oriented fields ranging from anthropology and sociology, but I do believe that they are mostly just leveraging their connections within the industry to influence studios to work with them.
It is a sound but controversial business strategy, but I'm skeptical about the merit of their service given the massive backlash they are facing now.
This employee for instance wants to burn the game industry to the ground and is pretty unhinged in their cold hatred towards white people. It comes across as activism, advocacy and crusading masquerading as a consultancy, very left leaning and racist. https://youtu.be/QT1BD8bP9-E?si=utpjtiA0j-z4l3bV
Some of their supporters have very disturbing views on Israel and openly support terrorists like Hamas and Hezbollah which adds a whole different dimension to the situation.
I also don't like the double standard inclusion where what is seen as necessary DEI in the west is censored in the middle east by the very people that see that region as some kind of secular haven for LGBTQ and women's rights
Like Sony removed pride flags and modified the LGBTQ side quest in spiderman to make the boy and his prom date platonic friends but that choice wasn't extended to the states because that would be bigoted.
Like they are quite willing to embrace bigotry for profit while willing to take a financial hit in the west to appease a minority so it's not surprising that many of SBI Detected curator see it as an subversive agenda.
A consultancy should be neutral, unbiased and value the client, and the client should understand their audience.
And yes in the case of certain clients which already are pushing an agenda I don't see where such a consultancy could help.
I mean atleast the devs of dustborn (which autocorrects to dustbin) were honest about what the game was and which audience it was targeting.
But with larger licenses when you shoehorn this material it will always create polarization and controversy and it will come down to the audience and investors to decide the best way forward for the success and survival of the company.
I wouldn't lump however many people that are in the 'sweet baby inc detected' steam group in with the MAGA crowd dude. Most of the players who 'oppose DEI' aren't racist, anti-trans etc - they're actually calling for better writing and art in games, and this is their means of expression. As a game dev you're supposed to translate the incessant demonic howling noises from players into something more literate and comprehensive.
A lot of this is symptomatic of cost cutting measures; removing highly paid top talent and replacing them with juniors, as well as MBAs literally strip mining our industry from the top down.
What, it's just coincidental that the games they bitch and moan about are ones that are more inclusive of LGBT people, people that aren't white, etc? There's no conclusion to take from them saying that any gender except male is "political" and that LGBT characters merely being included - sometimes in as little as a small flag in a background - are being "shoved down their throats"?
Of course they're racist and anti-trans, among other things. "Better writing and art" is simply the incredibly flimsy shield they hide behind. Just look at them insisting game devs should "hire fans" and showing their "fixes" to designs like making the female characters be whored out to male gaze because they didn't think the original designs were sexy enough.
This employee for instance wants to burn the game industry to the ground and is pretty unhinged in their cold hatred towards white people. It comes across as activism, advocacy and crusading masquerading as a consultancy, very left leaning and racist. https://youtu.be/QT1BD8bP9-E?si=utpjtiA0j-z4l3bV
Some of their supporters have very disturbing views on Israel and openly support terrorists like Hamas and Hezbollah which adds a whole different dimension to the situation.
It's bold to call someone else unhinged when you watched that and your takeaway was that they have "cold hatred towards white people".
They even added this convenient summary and all. But basically, what they said was:
"Edgy" media should be punching up, not down.
Don't make stories about things you don't understand without listening to those who do, because there are some situations and experiences you can't possibly understand just by imagining as an outsider.
If you're privileged and want to make a story about those who aren't, use your position to criticise the system that gave you that privilege instead of making something for the privileged to feel good about themselves. (For example, don't make a white saviour story.)
Hateful towards white people? Hardly. I don't agree with everything they said - it's tiresome if a character's identity must define their challenges; sometimes you just want to enjoy something where people like you can just exist - but it's a long, long way from being hateful or wanting to "burn the game industry to the ground". That's a truly ridiculous amount of hyperbole.
What do their supporters have to do with it? Nobody is responsible for what a load of unrelated people think just because those people support them. If you start with that logic I could point out the amount of neonazis who would wholeheartedly support all the complaining you've been doing here about DEI; would that be fine with you? It shouldn't, because people don't have responsibility for what unrelated people think.
A consultancy should be neutral, unbiased and value the client, and the client should understand their audience.
And yes in the case of certain clients which already are pushing an agenda I don't see where such a consultancy could help.
I mean atleast the devs of dustborn (which autocorrects to dustbin) were honest about what the game was and which audience it was targeting.
But with larger licenses when you shoehorn this material it will always create polarization and controversy and it will come down to the audience and investors to decide the best way forward for the success and survival of the company.
What is neutrality? Is it neutral if it doesn't challenge the status quo? Is it neutral if it pays equal consideration to the views and feelings of people who just want to be represented equally as to the feelings of people who think those people don't even deserve equal rights? There's no such thing. Going with the flow without thinking or challenging it is a decision. That isn't neutral.
It's pretty disgusting, honestly. That when people just try to make their games more inclusive so that more people can enjoy it and not feel like they're misrepresented or ignored by it that that's described as "pushing an agenda", but if you fall back on the defaults - which, historically and to this day, are sexist, homophobic and racist, among other faults - that's considered neutral, default, normal.
Honestly, it speaks to the mindset people arguing that hold. That what is straight, cis, male and usually white is the default, and anything else is political, different, shoehorned in. That those people are the ones that everything exists for; that anyone else being given inclusion is being forced in to their exclusive space. Fuck those people, and fuck that attitude.
This isn't even about art, like I said no actual gamers outside of a handful of idiots actually think DEI is an issue. For comparison, Kay vs Alyx - I would argue Kay is actually prettier here, but players like HL2 more. Why?
Because the story was better. Because the worldbuilding was strong enough that these characters felt real, and that the stakes were real. I think switching from critiquing art, which usually is the stronger part of most games, to critiquing writing and gameplay would be a more productive debate.
For me, the reason why I didn't buy Outlaws was because I saw how bad the stealth mechanics were, and figured if such an oversight had been included in the game, that there would be more oversights. I honestly dont care how pretty or not Kay is, they're literally polygons
"no actual gamers outside of a handful of idiots actually think DEI is an issue."
Well ... such practice (in hiring) is litterally illegal in other parts of the civilized world, and thankfully so - so it does make total sense for anyone against this sort of discriminatory practice to vote with their wallet if they so desire. Of course putting a studio on a "DEI blacklist" for having a black or brown main character is moronic ; but it does make sense for anyone with humanist beliefs to blacklist companies that proudly gloat about racist or sexist hiring policies on their about page. And I don't see much of a stretch in suspecting a link between discriminatory hiring or HR practices based on ethnicity or sex, and the decision to make a character this or that ethnicity or sex. Any company or studio gloating about "inclusive" (actually meaning : discriminatory) hiring policies or quotas is casting shade on their creative decisions and politically tinting them all by themselves.
For many of us from outside of the US this is quite self-evident, and it not being the case in the country that used to be at the forefront of creating culture marks the end of an era somewhat.
About the following :
- Don't make stories about things you don't understand without listening to those who do, because there are some situations and experiences you can't possibly understand just by imagining as an outsider.
As well-intentionned as this is, this is IMHO part of the problem as no one has any right whatsoever to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't talk about or create. People can of course *wish* for others to learn about this or that topic related to their creation (and one could certainly argue that it is of benefit indeed) ; but the whole point of freedom of expression is that no one can force that on anyone. Tarantino didn't need to have any firsthand experience of diamond heists and undercover ops (outside of the way they are caricaturally or realistically portrayed in movies) in order to write and direct Reservoir Dogs ; and Jedis can be Jedis all they want, even if that means cUlTuRaLlY aPpRoPrIaTiNg Kendo moves. And so it goes for any other topic, be it bedroom activities or the perspective of a characer of this or that skin color. But I suppose that this is mechanically impossible for vocal activists to accept, since by definition they are not activists anymore once they do ...
Anyways. Time to get back to creating any character or costume that I want, and perhaps rewatching the RHPS and Undercover Brother a couple more times
- Don't make stories about things you don't understand without listening to those who do, because there are some situations and experiences you can't possibly understand just by imagining as an outsider.
Keyword here is 'some'. Diamond heists aren't a particularly sensitive topic among the general public, but misogyny (as an example) is. Of course nobody has the right to keep you from writing any stories that you want--but if the story treats of something related to like, navigating a men-dominated workplace as a woman, you're most likely to do a bad job at writing it if you're a cis guy with absolutely no help from the interested party.
About hiring practices, (I'll speak about France because that's where I live) it's illegal to discriminate on hiring. But the fact of the matter is, most do. As an exemple, H&M used to only hire thin, beautiful women in their store as a way to promote their product and overall image. They have been called out and investigated for that. But what about smaller stores? Or independant shops? Who's going to investigate the corner grocery store to see if the manager tend to not hire POC?
Of course in a perfect world, this wouldn't happen. Women wouldn't be hired less because they can potentially get pregnant and take a maternity leave. Employers wouldn't judge people on their skin color and so on. People trying to make space for the 'unemployable' shouldn't be berated--In a capitalistic logic, they should be encouraged for lowering the unemployment rate and making the economy roll.
This isn't even about art, like I said no actual gamers outside of a handful of idiots actually think DEI is an issue. For comparison, Kay vs Alyx - I would argue Kay is actually prettier here, but players like HL2 more. Why?
Because the story was better. Because the worldbuilding was strong enough that these characters felt real, and that the stakes were real. I think switching from critiquing art, which usually is the stronger part of most games, to critiquing writing and gameplay would be a more productive debate.
For me, the reason why I didn't buy Outlaws was because I saw how bad the stealth mechanics were, and figured if such an oversight had been included in the game, that there would be more oversights. I honestly dont care how pretty or not Kay is, they're literally polygons
I don't think its about being prettier, its the fact that they had an actor and chose not to go with a scan for reasons of budget or maybe they just approached the development process backwards.
Or they really felt that the version of Kay they created seemed more authentic to the character of an outlaw, but some elements of how the design came together just didn't sit right with players, many of whom were very vocal about it.
For me, I just don't see it as a task done right. Like sure the hair is 80's, face is androgynous. She has a chin cleft for some reason, and there's some resemblance to Mark Hammil. But if there was a possibility to go with a scan and just change the hair, I'd pick that since its simply straightforward with very low margin of error when it comes to appeal.
I also don't know if the character was tested for appeal, like did they bring gamers in and get feedback on Kay, Again if the actor was involved after and used for publicity, you can't really blame gamers for feeling confused as to why the apparent face of the game (Humberly Gonzales) looks very different from the Kay Vess model.
Where I feel ubisoft went off the deep end is with the creative director taking a defensive stance citing bad faith people and to not engage adding more fuel to the fire.
Not sure how that contrasts with stellar blades director simply stating flat out that
“When it comes to the design, we put special attention on the back of the character because the player is always facing the back of the character when they’re playing,” Kim said. “That’s what they see the most of, so we thought this was pretty important.”
Kim added that when looking at a character in a game, he wants to play as someone who is “better-looking” than himself.
“That’s what I want,” he said. “I don’t want to see something normal; I want to see something more ideal. I think that is very important in a form of entertainment.”
“This is, after all, entertainment targeted for adults.”
I felt that there is just not enough exploration of Kay's backstory and how the child kay turns into adult kay with the models and personalities not really matching up in several aspects. (petty thief young Kay -> ex-meth addict post rehab street fighter Kay)
Like its an odd approach to me because the studio wants to make the game appeal to players and yet doesn't want to go with what it feels is a trope, but then goes with an entirely different trope and when players consider it as a controversy they become defensive. Then again maybe they didn't want it to be appealing to majority players and now have to answer to investors.
And yes when it comes to writing and game play, there's a lot that requires a suspension of disbelief, ubisoft tends to make games that don't challenge or frustrate players with the same generic repetitive gameplay across most of its licenses.
I can attest from experience that when you have diversity within a studio and this includes developers from backgrounds that SBI detected people consider to be woke, it does impact the games narrative and gameplay design. And as with many minority demographics it can also impact future hiring, so the possibility of there being a toxic positive echo chamber is high, and what the audience actually wants might be lost in the creative void. (this destroyed Concord)
I sometimes feel that the idea of inclusion and diversity should be limited to studio demographic and culture, but the games design and development should focus on the success and viability of the product.
And certainly developers take inspiration from their lives, so it can make its way into game in a variety of ways, some of it may be seen as tokenism, and some propoganda, but as they are features it shouldn't take away from the core gameplay elements that the majority players want to experience without immersion breaking situations. Its a more delicate balance for some games than others.
Like its probably not best to limit ones perspective by calling spiderman devs woke since it involves a side mission of setting up a prom date between 2 queer students, as it is calling the devs of stellar blade dirty perverts for wanting eve to have jiggle physics on her breasts and butt mounted on a very voluptous frame.
And both games sold 1 million copies, Ubisoft/Disney felt it was below expectations and Shift up/Sony felt their exceeded expectations Though theres a vast difference in budget 300 million to 30 million
I felt that there is just not enough exploration of Kay's backstory and how the child kay turns into adult kay with the models and personalities not really matching up in several aspects. (petty thief young Kay -> ex-meth addict post rehab street fighter Kay)
Was the bit where people pointed out the people who worked on that game could be browsing Polycount somehow not enough for you to consider it might not be a good idea to put your actual name and face on going here and nakedly insulting people's work? Ex-meth addict, really?
yeah, geez Nik, you have to be absolutely scared shitless of being blacklisted by the industry like the rest of us, it's only fair. You can't just *say* what's on your mind, my god
Enough about Kay, now let's talk about how Henry from Kingdom come Deliverance doesn't look like himself anymore. They even gave him a chin cleft those rascals!!
Enough about Kay, now let's talk about how Henry from Kingdom come Deliverance doesn't look like himself anymore. They even gave him a chin cleft those rascals!!
I'm not sure if that's a cleft, this is the actor, https://youtu.be/5Pt1whp15P8 They seem to be using a scan now and his chin has some loose skin that seems to bunch on in some shots which looks like a cleft.
atleast with Kay it does seem like a call back to Mark Hammil. Honestly just give them all beards, even Kay Vess.
And my assessment that she might have been addicted to meth and a street fighter was based on the extreme changes in her face that many meth addicts do show and her living environment (she lived above a seedy bar) in Canto Bight Rose Tico said
"It's a terrible place filled with the worst people in the galaxy."
so its possible that Kay abandoned by her mother and living without a father figure and engaging with known criminals did get in with the wrong company.
Atleast in Outlaws she is likely post rehab, but the scars of the hard life remain and perhaps the devs wanted to frame her development as a redemption story like Han Solo.
The Canto Bight connection was likely Disney forcing relevance for the last jedi since they have a movie coming out with Rey and honestly the new movies just didn't have sufficient world building like the prequels.
She's also extremely overpowered being able to beat up whole platoons of storm troopers with her bare hands. Like her appearance really isn't too far from out of province panhandlers that I've seen downtown with pets and they fight in much the same way with drug dealers, bicycle thieves and the police.
@Rima Somebody needs to point it out to the team, but honestly given the way the creative director addressed comments on the game, I don't think there is any point, but their actions did result in the game underperforming. It is confusing though about why it came to this and what they plan to do about it. Like a Mandalorian license is something that Ubisoft should have absolutely secured over one with kay vess. They didn't have to do one with Djin Djarin, the character of Sabine Wren is ripe for a stand alone story and has an animated and live action presentation to offer both a strong backstory and current story. And since EA/Respawn is occupied with the Jedi Series, this was the right time to secure ownership of that license. Remember that when Respawn pitched for a star wars license, Disney offered them something very similar to Star Wars Outlaws, but their director really stood his ground on what he felt Respawns team would be able to realise their full potential on. And this should have happened with Ubisoft. But then Ubisoft commissioned this recently https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqzDN2nlPYY&t=2s and couldn't be bothered to make the actress look like the character in the game, so either they just never cared or this is the direction they are planning to go. This kay doesn't even fight the strom troopers, Gremlin Nyx saves her.
And my assessment that she might have been addicted to meth and a street fighter was based on the extreme changes in her face that many meth addicts do show and her living environment (she lived above a seedy bar) in Canto Bight Rose Tico said
"It's a terrible place filled with the worst people in the galaxy."
so its possible that Kay abandoned by her mother and living without a father figure and engaging with known criminals did get in with the wrong company.
Atleast in Outlaws she is likely post rehab, but the scars of the hard life remain and perhaps the devs wanted to frame her development as a redemption story like Han Solo.
...........
She's also extremely overpowered being able to beat up whole platoons of storm troopers with her bare hands. Like her appearance really isn't too far from out of province panhandlers that I've seen downtown with pets and they fight in much the same way with drug dealers, bicycle thieves and the police.
Mate. It's Star Wars. She's not a fucking methhead, you're just a weirdo that can't accept the shape of her face.
Do you apply this standard to all the games? Where's the complaint about Kyle Katarn soaking up dozens of shots from Stormtroopers, or that guy in Jedi Survivor?
She can beat them up with her bare hands because it's a bloody video game. It's not that deep. If you want to go on about the unrealism of it, start by complaining about how stormtroopers can't aim for shit and question how Luke Skywalker or Han Solo ever survived a shootout with them when
they're massively outnumbered and not even wearing any armour.
Somebody needs to point it out to the team, but honestly given the way the creative director addressed comments on the game, I don't think there is any point, but their actions did result in the game underperforming.
......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqzDN2nlPYY&t=2s and couldn't be bothered to make the actress look like the character in the game, so either they just never cared or this is the direction they are planning to go. This kay doesn't even fight the strom troopers, Gremlin Nyx saves her.
You can't put the blame for the game underperforming on the comments the creative director made. Do you really think that any normie even knows who the creative director is? Hell, they probably don't even know what a creative director is. Its underperformance is much more likely because the economy is in the shit and AAA games are expensive, Ubisoft's reputation is also in the shit, they released the PC version on a service nobody fucking uses....It's completely myopic to think that the reason it underperformed is because of what the creative director said.
As for that video, did you actually look at the channel before presenting this? They clearly have like, 3-5 guys who just play different characters depending on what the video needs. It's not a fucking statement about what Kay's face should look like, it's just who they had on hand. Get a grip.
Honestly, how many pages of absurd overanalysis and dogwhistling do you need?
I've fixed Henry. He's now addicted to skooma, chugs sujamma on the weekends, and is more handsome because of it. Now he's actually bangable instead of being generic white n'wah no.3
"Mate. It's Star Wars. She's not a fucking methhead, you're just a weirdo that can't accept the shape of her face."
....and neatly wraps up this entire discussion.
I think her being a recovered methhead makes for a more interesting back story and fits well into the environment she was brought up in.
I have been looking into ubisofts sponsorships since the launch to better understand how they are marketing the game. This sponsorship stands in stark contrast to the fan film. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5-NS5MbuJ4
It just doesn't feel like they took the character design and gameplay elements seriously, but their work on the environments is commendable. That's why I feel that there should be more collaboration between studios, for example EA's HyperMotionV tech for facial and body animation would have benefited the characters if Ubisoft would have licensed those patents through Disney.
I applied standards based on relevance and how immersion breaking it felt from a gameplay standpoint. Some elements like getting shot and being able to heal instantly, not having to change clothes or shower or use a washroom are all standard and there are games that do include them to improve immersion or atleast allow a modding option for players. example, https://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/13275 So it really comes down to the scope of the game. Not being able to carry weapons on ladders, Nyx being invincible, Kay being overpowered in hand to hand combat perhaps ubisoft felt that this didn't matter or that there were other elements in the game that would distract from these elements.
Maybe the approach to Kays design was too restrictive and they simply lifted elements from the films and put them together to create a character that they felt would appeal to players. I'm not sure if they actually tested if her design was appealing internally since the criticism was almost instant the moment she was revealed and Ubisoft/game journalists immediately went on the defensive calling the critism a gamer gate conspiracy.
I felt that the creative director was more dismissive in his approach which didn't help the situation since players felt their concerns were not being taken seriously. It really is the opposite of what happened with the Sonic Movie.
Outlaws seems like done and dusted kind of product, the possibility of a sequel is a maybe, Kay is just not that significant a character and the game arc is complete because a sequel isn't guaranteed. Both Outlaws and Survivor excel in some areas and seem limited in others, but I just found Outlaws approach to its main character and the lack of gameplay elements immersion breaking, but maybe that's just the trend at ubisoft which has attracted the attention and concern of investors.
That's why I feel that there should be more collaboration between studios, for example EA's HyperMotionV tech for facial and body animation would have benefited the characters if Ubisoft would have licensed those patents through Disney.
just to be clear
you're suggesting that a company should share proprietary technology that they developed to gain a competitive advantage over their competitors with their competitors?
that's genius! I can't believe everyone isn't doing it
Her being a methhead would be completely out of genre. It's a light, melodramatic action movie franchise, not a gritty, dark story about despair and addiction. The most you're going to get is a vague mention of death sticks outside of that one edgy extended universe Skywalker descendant, and they're not going to go into actual detail about it. It's just not part of Star Wars' identity. It would be like having Warhammer 40k suddenly make a protagonist who bring hopes and safety everywhere they go and loves all the xenos.
And if you're going to insist it should be that way, why not Luke Skywalker? That guy lived in a shithole in the desert with barely any water and nothing to do, you're telling me he wouldn't be the first in line to get off his tits every night? Or how about we decide Obi-Wan turned alcoholic for a while to cope with the devastating loss of his entire order, his friend, his way of life and the republic he fought for? I'll give you Yoda. He was definitely on something in that swamp.
Honestly, at a certain point, if you don't like it, it's time to go and write a fanfic instead of trying to convince the entire world that your ideal version would be better. Or better yet, make something of your own that implements the kind of characters and tropes you want, then you can trademark it and maybe turn a bit of profit. And if you can't do that, why don't you do what all the other angry Star Wars fans do and make a three hour video essay about a thirty minute topic so you can make some nice adsense revenue?
Also, those are just common sense things to remove, either for balancing or satisfaction. There's a reason if you want to go have a bath in Oblivion you need a mod for it; virtually nobody cares for such a feature and if it was forced on them it would be a giant pain in the arse. Same reason Nyx is invincible; who the hell wants to play a game where you have a companion separate from you that can die completely out of your control? That's not fun! Gamers have been rightly complaining for years about escort missions for exactly that reason! And again, Kay can fight like that in hand to hand combat because it's a bloody video game. Honestly, if you can't cope with that, what can you handle?
Lifting elements from the films is common sense. And if you don't think they did that for the other games and characters, I don't know what to tell you. It's a AAA game, of course this stuff is made by committee. Always has been. Ahsoka was made so kids watching The Clone Wars would have someone to relate to. Din Djarin was made because Boba Fett was really popular. Grogu was made because they thought a cute baby Yoda would sell like hotcakes and everyone loves seeing a stoic tough man become an adoptive parent. Almost everyone in the sequels is a remix of the archetypes and personalities from the original trilogy. If you're making a franchise piece, it's just normal to look at what was popular about the original work and see what elements you can apply to your product.
Player's "concerns" were just the same old bullshit that they didn't think she looked fuckable enough. Just look at the complaints about Angela from the SH2 remake. Same thing. Anyone pretending otherwise is full of shit.
I should stop replying to this thing. Even the morbid curiosity is wearing thin.
That's why I feel that there should be more collaboration between studios, for example EA's HyperMotionV tech for facial and body animation would have benefited the characters if Ubisoft would have licensed those patents through Disney.
just to be clear
you're suggesting that a company should share proprietary technology that they developed to gain a competitive advantage over their competitors with their competitors?
that's genius! I can't believe everyone isn't doing it
I meant licensing it out or trading technology to improve games for the benefit of players. And I understand it doesn't happen because of the competitive nature of game development. It may result in additional revenue through profit sharing and royalties. I support a more cooperative culture of game development over the cutthroat competitive approach we see today that is filled with layoffs and poaching talent to undermine and devastate the competition. It brings games back to being fun to develop and release rather than work in a environment where you have a sword dangling over your neck. And it is possible to license tech or fully own it and usually we see larger studios doing this from smaller developers, so why can't it work between larger studios provided there are licensing terms that allow the tech to be shared and utilized in a sustainable and profitable way?
Another element I'd like to see is more transparency in development processes, using that to market a games progress with a greater focus on the developers efforts rather than marketing constantly telling everyone how great we are before laying us off en masse.
@Rima While it is normal to lift inspiration from the films other licenses, I just felt that with ubisoft it felt really predictable that this is what they would do, and in a very superficial way. All their games are really similar and I'm just not sure if there was an alternative that they disregarded because they either were too comfortable with their approach or they are simply a lot more risk averse than respawn. For Disney it really was a matter of which company would take this idea on, since Respawn had refused it and stood their ground to make a game on Jedi. Jedi Survivor is very dark souls, and the Mandalorian is really gritty in how it approaches loss and consequence. The irony with Kay, is that in wanting to make her relatable they went with a trope making her a wholly forgettable character like Rey. Like sure the game will have a niche audience that can relate to it in the same way how there are fans of the live action Little Mermaid, and its great that the game does have aspects that faithfully recreate the environment and ambience of the 80's But had there been a culture where studios actively licensed tech they dont have instead of focusing on poaching employees that developed the tech in the hope for creating something proprietary, we may have had a better game in a shorter time. The largest expense in video games is marketing and I find it difficult to justify that cost. If that cost was moved over to sustain a more cooperative approach we wouldn't need marketing to keep convincing gamers on what to buy, the games being developed this way would speak for themselves.
Like sure the game will have a niche audience that can relate to it in the same way how there are fans of the live action Little Mermaid,
... You don't even try to hide your allegiances, huh?
That movie attracted a similar controversy when it came to its casting. I thought the actress looked like Lola from Shark Tale and I was accused of being speciest by two sides accusing each other of being racist.
@Rima While it is normal to lift inspiration from the films other licenses, I just felt that with ubisoft it felt really predictable that this is what they would do, and in a very superficial way. All their games are really similar and I'm just not sure if there was an alternative that they disregarded because they either were too comfortable with their approach or they are simply a lot more risk averse than respawn. For Disney it really was a matter of which company would take this idea on, since Respawn had refused it and stood their ground to make a game on Jedi. Jedi Survivor is very dark souls, and the Mandalorian is really gritty in how it approaches loss and consequence. The irony with Kay, is that in wanting to make her relatable they went with a trope making her a wholly forgettable character like Rey. Like sure the game will have a niche audience that can relate to it in the same way how there are fans of the live action Little Mermaid, and its great that the game does have aspects that faithfully recreate the environment and ambience of the 80's But had there been a culture where studios actively licensed tech they dont have instead of focusing on poaching employees that developed the tech in the hope for creating something proprietary, we may have had a better game in a shorter time. The largest expense in video games is marketing and I find it difficult to justify that cost. If that cost was moved over to sustain a more cooperative approach we wouldn't need marketing to keep convincing gamers on what to buy, the games being developed this way would speak for themselves.
Take a shot every time this guy drags in another culture war topic....If you're feeling suicidal.
I just went on Wikipedia out of curiosity. That "niche" Little Mermaid remake? Budget of $240.2 million. Box office of $569.6 million. Tenth-highest grossing film of 2023, seventh-highest-grossing of Disney's soulless live action remakes. $569 million....Quite niche, that. That's some pretty interesting revisionism on what happened when you went on about The Little Mermaid, too...
Kay Vess is predictable but Din Djarin is almost literally a clone of Boba Fett and that's fine....? Why is it your concerns about originality, design and interesting plot only ever seem to fall on women, PoC and LGBT people? Hmmmm.
imo Din Djarin is more of a clone of Oberyn Martell. Hollywood is basically an empty void of originality these days, ctrl+C ctrl+V assets, it's outrageous, simply infuriating. And they think they could get away with it, that we wouldn't realize. The sheer audacity, the intellectual dishonesty
Take a shot every time this guy drags in another culture war topic....If you're feeling suicidal.
I just went on Wikipedia out of curiosity. That "niche" Little Mermaid remake? Budget of $240.2 million. Box office of $569.6 million. Tenth-highest grossing film of 2023, seventh-highest-grossing of Disney's soulless live action remakes. $569 million....Quite niche, that. That's some pretty interesting revisionism on what happened when you went on about The Little Mermaid, too...
Kay Vess is predictable but Din Djarin is almost literally a clone of Boba Fett and that's fine....? Why is it your concerns about originality, design and interesting plot only ever seem to fall on women, PoC and LGBT people? Hmmmm.
I meant compared to the animated version which was iconic and resonated with a larger audience across the world. If you are comparing revenue, the animated version had a budget of $40 million with box office of $235 million. Adjusted for inflation, that would come to, 80 million budget and 503 million box office. Its way higher than the live action and more memorable by a long shot.
Disney does seem to have some reason with the direction they are going with their live action remakes, I just don't understand how its good for them. This is a good video that sums up this other upcoming film that will likely end in disaster. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpZIqCjQGaw
Like sure, if Disney sees profitability as, "we made more than just break even" and that's what their investors want then its all good. Doesn't make for an iconic film or video game, that depends on the development team and their willingness and ability to create something they believe it and stand up for what they believe.
Stig Asmussen did for Respawn, maybe Julian Gerighty believed differently and investors just didn't agree with him, so he may not get a second chance.
Kay Vess doesn't seem too far from Rey, Lucasfilm games had been floating the concept of a Outlaws like Concept ever since Respawn rejected it. It makes sense since they desperately want to capitalise on the void created by the last jedi and forcing it into the original triology era is a good way to make it relevant.
And I disagree that Djin Jarin was conceptualized as a clone of Boba Fett, they have very different personalities and motivations and Djin Jarin has a more interesting redemption arc, as a character he stands on his own and was iconic enough that I found myself skipping episodes of Book of Boba Fett to the episodes with Djin Jarin. The Mandalorian series also becomes an ensemble story with Cara Dune, Greef Karga, Fennec Shand which rounds it out really well.
Outlaws does attempt this for a part of the game, but since its an origin story Kay can be very dismissive for most of the game, similar to Djin Jarin but with a fraction of the charisma, personality or mystery. In my opinion, besides the poor facial animation and deficient backstory, she comes across largely as a very flat, one dimensional character. Its Nyx that makes you want to interact with Kay not the other way round.
Then again maybe to Ubisoft, this is what a scoundrel was, and if they don't embrace a higher purpose they probably just remain like this. I don't know how many players could relate to this perspective, clearly not enough to support the game and have it perform to expectations.
While Han Solo is seen as star wars representative scoundrel, I personally found Lando Calrissian to be more impactful and I'm glad that
"he's in Star Wars Outlaws"
In fact Ubisoft has said that any future DLC's would feature him in a more central role so maybe this is one way that they can keep the game relevant.
About female characters, if a game about a gun slinger female character must be made, there were more credible and established alternatives to Kay Vess such as Sabine Wren, Bo Katan, the Armorer form Mandalorian, Cara Dune (the actress is controversial in her views), Fennec Shand, Hera Syndulla and Jyn Erso. Unfortunately I couldn't find a single significant character from Episode 7,8, 9 since the only one we have with significant screentime was Rose Tico who was widely ridiculed and forcing a relationship between her and Finn wasn't well received. She was completely sidelined in Rise of Skywalker so maybe a game to resurrect the character might be possible but it carries considerable risk.
In fact neither character had any significant development through the series, though that side trip to Canto Bight is likely what forced the setting in Star Wars Outlaws.
Maybe Lieutenant Connix, Tallie Lintra or Paige Tico could have been further developed in an original story? Or a younger admiral Holdo.
Also I did suggest making a game on Sabine Wren as being significantly better since she has a well developed back story and is fresh out of Ahsoka, so setting an arc in the period just before the events of that series is very sensible. Sabine is not queer and Dave Filoni does establish her as straight "Dave Filoni explained that the reason why Ezra and Sabine didn’t get together at the point of the finale during the series was because he felt that it was more important to show that two people can have a strong connection, without being in a relationship."
But all through Rebels and early into Ahsoka, given her presentation which was widely seen stereotypically as possibly lesbian, she was assumed that she could be queer (even ending up with Shin Hati) So ubisoft could have made a game and negotiated with Disney to make her bisexual before the events of Ahsoka if they were intent on inclusivity and representation.
But they didn't even bother doing that with Kay instead going with the strong female character stereotype which Sabine Wren already was and more. So was no reason to create Kay as a hodgepodge of Han Solo, Luke Skywalker and to an extent Princess Leia and then build a world around her but Ubisoft wanted to make this game for reasons only known to their directors and market research and I do hope that they didn't give up a mandalorian pitch because they couldn't stand up for that concept like Respawn did.
Respawn "As owner of the Star Wars intellectual property, Lucasfilm was protective of the Jedi as a "sacred" part of the franchise, and encouraged Respawn to make a shooter game about a smuggler or bounty hunter. However, Asmussen pushed back with his vision, convincing Lucasfilm to focus on a game with Jedi and lightsaber combat."
Ubisoft "In 2020, the studio pitched a "scoundrel fantasy" concept to Lucasfilm Games, a subsidiary of Disney's Lucasfilm, envisioning a seamless open world gameplay. The idea was well-received by Lucasfilm, leading to the development of Star Wars Outlaws."
Lucasfilm games had been floating the concept of a Outlaws like Concept ever since Respawn rejected it so no wonder they received it well. I wonder if they are rethinking their stance on that now.
I do believe that Ubisoft may have been better served by making a game based on Mandalorians since there very clearly is demand for that. But seeing what they did with Outlaws I'm glad they didn't and likely never will.
Is your media consumption nothing but people bitching and moaning about media? I see where the problem's coming from.
Maybe they just made an original character because they wanted their game to have its own identity instead of being seen as yet another spin off about someone we already know? Or so they'd have another character to trademark and make toys of? Or so they wouldn't have to be tied down to writing around established events, allowing them to do whatever the hell they want and not be restrained by a character needing to be alive and in a certain place at a certain time, thus spoiling the outcome of their story? Or because if it was a sequel to those events they didn't want the baggage of demanding their players have watched half a dozen series to understand who they are, or avoid having to awkwardly write around having to reference those? It's just common sense, honestly.
Above all, would they really want to make yet another Star Wars product that's furiously wanking off the fans of Filioni's shit? There's enough of that already. This is just boring now. I'm out.
Is your media consumption nothing but people bitching and moaning about media? I see where the problem's coming from.
Maybe they just made an original character because they wanted their game to have its own identity instead of being seen as yet another spin off about someone we already know? Or so they'd have another character to trademark and make toys of? Or so they wouldn't have to be tied down to writing around established events, allowing them to do whatever the hell they want and not be restrained by a character needing to be alive and in a certain place at a certain time, thus spoiling the outcome of their story? Or because if it was a sequel to those events they didn't want the baggage of demanding their players have watched half a dozen series to understand who they are, or avoid having to awkwardly write around having to reference those? It's just common sense, honestly.
Above all, would they really want to make yet another Star Wars product that's furiously wanking off the fans of Filioni's shit? There's enough of that already. This is just boring now. I'm out.
I do look into a variety of sources that cover what is publicly known about the games development, its marketing and ubisofts approach to player feedback. The issue is that ubisoft didn't do a good job of it imo, so either they over estimated their potential or there was some other agenda that sabotaged their vision. Or this was their vision and it just didn't appeal to an audience large enough for the game to perform to expectations. Their PR when the criticism began also left much to be desired. Even if people are being trolls, they are still customers and a business should know how to respond to them and to gaming journalists that escalated the situation for their own reasons. example: people saying "kay isn't as attractive as the actor playing her" shouldn't lead to "you can't be racist against white people" and "gamergate 2.0 will lead to a trump re-election" It ends at kay when Ubisoft puts out a disclaimer saying "we have addressed customer feedback and have forwarded the matter to relevant teams" that's it. Even if they don't do anything that disclaimer matters, not allowing your employees to get into culture wars on twitter because "their opinions are their own" If they are getting death threats, escalate it to the relevant authorities, moderate what needs to be said publicly.
Filoni's work has demand and an established audience so its less risk, but must be done well. And I do encourage originiality too if its done well. Outlaws didn't feel really original though, more a homage to the Original trilogy in fact it does feel a lot like Alien Romulus in its approach if you've seen that movie.
Be great if development wasn't under a veil of secrecy, I've always been a supporter of more transparency and audience involvement in game development but I understand how difficult it is to implement this with the current corporate competitive approach.
Above all, would they really want to make yet another Star Wars product that's furiously wanking off the fans of Filioni's shit? There's enough of that already. This is just boring now. I'm out.
That's uncalled for; I'm a fan of "Filoni's shit." If you're done with the discussion (I don't blame you), you can just just stop without having a mic drop moment.
No one's convincing anyone of anything, and there's a lot of argument from both sides around what you think other people are thinking.
That's uncalled for; I'm a fan of "Filoni's shit." If you're done with the discussion (I don't blame you), you can just just stop without having a mic drop moment.
No one's convincing anyone of anything, and there's a lot of argument from both sides around what you think other people are thinking.
No, that's not a judgement on the quality of his work, or a mic drop or whatever. Maybe it's a casual thing where I live? "Shit" like "thing". Like, let's say you make a load of drawings, you say "Look at all this shit I drew" or "I drew a load of shit then went to bed."
"Mate. It's Star Wars. She's not a fucking methhead, you're just a weirdo that can't accept the shape of her face."
....and neatly wraps up this entire discussion.
I think her being a recovered methhead makes for a more interesting back story and fits well into the environment she was brought up in.
Umm bruh you do know it's only a video game....right?!
Edit
Is this fixated diatribe you're hell bent venting here really worth flat earthing your career over?
Anyhow some unsolicited advice, go make some more art you'll feel a lot better works for me and maybe snag another industry job into the bargain similar to previously shared on your other thread
That's uncalled for; I'm a fan of "Filoni's shit." If you're done with the discussion (I don't blame you), you can just just stop without having a mic drop moment.
No one's convincing anyone of anything, and there's a lot of argument from both sides around what you think other people are thinking.
No, that's not a judgement on the quality of his work, or a mic drop or whatever. Maybe it's a casual thing where I live? "Shit" like "thing". Like, let's say you make a load of drawings, you say "Look at all this shit I drew" or "I drew a load of shit then went to bed."
I was objecting to the "furiously wanking off...." part of your comment - It was unnecessary.
Replies
but the letter part I am raising a hypothesis to make the point that there's lots of viable speculations we can make. in the end it is only that - speculations.
if the thread had started more with hypothesis and less with conclusions it would probably be more well accepted. Like, "This game is reported to have not met sales targets, what effect might the character art have had on that outcome? Is there any lesson to learn?"
rather than, "the main character lost the gene lottery, I think she is ugly, a bunch of guys on youtube told me this so it's also the most likely reason sales targets fell short"
When dealing with 100's of characters it helps to have all the information we can input into the system, and certainly the approach is to get close to the visual target but with automation driving input, good to have those values especially for clothing fit and simulation.
And conversations around characters cup/band size have never gone in that direction precisely because the values do most of the work. It allows for less reliance on proportion, volume and shape since the cup band size is more for the clothing than the body given the way these systems work.
Its mostly there to establish averages and then tweak it to match the photo reference.
Really isnt' all that different from shoe size when you think about it, since the eventual result is still an approximation.
And yes the thread was about Star Wars Outlaws underperforming despite all the controversy around Kay's face, but unfortunately Kays face has become central to the discussion once more.
I titled the thread in that manner as a follow up to my previous thread.
About the Concord marketing using rainbows, I did wonder if it was inspired by the star trek posters of the 70's but I still don't understand if that market would actually even play Concord.
Unfortunately many gamers today would likely put rainbows and pronouns together and see it as some kind of DEI conspiracy, which is sad but its difficult to sway their perspective, maybe distracting them with gameplay is a better option but there really was just too much going against Concord to make it a success.
And the controversial views of the designers didn't help their situation.
I really do feel that all developers need to reflect on "my views are my own" and companies need to release strict guidelines of how to respond to social media vitriol.
The trend I noticed is that usually the criticism starts on more obscure forums and tries to entrap a dev who then ropes in a journalist and the whole discussion turns into a cesspool, when the dev should never have been involved in the first place.
Even if a dev gets a death threat it needs to be escalated to the studio and relevant authorities, not lead to a slagging match on twitter/x.
@Rima
Luckily Ubisoft did release an art blast on the game so we now have a better look at exactly what was going with the development.
https://magazine.artstation.com/2024/09/ubisoft-star-wars-outlaws/
Its good to have a presentation shot of the Kay Vess model and these were the artists in charge.
Achielias(Archie) Debecker did the outfit
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/AZq82X
And I'm assuming from his post that the face model was done by
Jefferson Estrabinio and Oskar Lundqvist
I'll try to get more information on the visual target for her face, since ubisoft recently commissioned a live action short featuring an actor for Kay with a totally different face and hairstyle. She also has a lighter skin tone.
Maybe the Kay Vess model will be changed to match this actress for any future releases? Not sure why they didn't just match Humberly or have Humberly act in the short film, Ubisoft certainly has the budget for it.
Nyx looks like a gremlin though, so not sure what happened there, and personally I found the film to be quite terrible in concept and execution.
Ubisoft admitted that the game underperformed and even impacted their Assassins creed release. So I'm thinking they might try to do more with Lando Calrissian and have Kay's story continue around him to give it more foundation and depth tying it closer to the core star wars universe.
@Melomad
Thanks for sharing more information about top surgery scars and the different options available in gender affirmation surgeries.
I did reach out to the DA team internally to ask if it was still possible to add some UI element that could link to causes like the Ali Fourney Center though I haven't heard back yet.
I am looking forward to see if the inclusion of scars was purely cosmetic or has some relevance to the story line, but there have been concerns about the character creator being limited in scope towards breast augmentation and another concern that the heads are too large through that seems to have been a stylistic choice.
https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/1flzv7s/despite_8_years_of_development_veilguard_devs/
I am trying to get more information on the art direction and why they chose this approach compared to previous releases of Dragon Age, but given the way studio operations work, we don't always get to see the internal process and even if we do we can't always share it publicly
@gnoop
i recommend EA sports games for a great example in how to do extensive facial animation with proprietary solutions. Every face in FC, NHL, UFC has so many subtleties in their animation and expressions, its very commendable to see them continuously iterate to make it more realistic and immersive for players.
I don't think that was Ubisofts focus at all. Their games seem to be designed to not frustrate players and get a product out into the market.
I do wish that there was more sharing of technology between studios through patent licensing that way EA's tech could have been applied to Ubisofts character models to make them feel more alive and less plasticky.
EA really put a lot of work into this technology which does make a lot of difference,
https://www.ea.com/en-gb/games/fifa/fifa-23/hypermotion2
About Guillemot's letter
Maybe negative press just isn't good press to investors who likely are wondering why Black Myth Wukong, Helldivers and Stellar Blade are performing better than big budget releases connected to popular licenses?
Like I get that the Park Place and the like are pushing some anti DEI agenda to counter what they believe is ubisofts agenda, but the only way to shut them down is to either listen to feedback (the genuine one atleast) or push a release to a market that willingly and loudly accepts the product drowing out subversive voices.
But seriously though, that whole Sweet Baby Inc situation should never have been allowed to escalate.
It started with 40 people posting on Neogaf and a sweet baby inc employee trying to get a anti DEI advocate banned from steam ballooned the latters community into a 450,000 strong force of boycotters.
And sure maybe many might be bots, but it was just better to let that thread on Neogaf die and escalate any death threats privately to the authorities.
Like I worry about Unknown 9: Awakening which had recruited SBI as a consultant.
The studio is local to Montreal and supported by Bandai and if you go through the comments on their latest music video trailer
It really isn't a good look at all and I would hate to see a studio shut down because of some rubbish about a DEI conspiracy.
It was critical for Sweet Baby Inc to reel in its employees and release a statement to safeguard the interests of their clients and I find it unfortunate that this did not happen.
Like this game is really going to have to push its marketing and gameplay to cut through all the criticism of its assumedly woke agenda that could very well sink the entire studio.
Ubisoft can weather the storm and atleast Bandai can absorb any loss of revenue, but the game suffers and its really not great being an artist on a game that's humiliated and shamed all over the internet like what has befallen Concord.
Personally I would take 450,000 guaranteed sales over 450,000 boycotts going rabid on twitter trying to get Trump re-elected.
* they don't all support Trump. I actually joined their discord looking to mediate and found that they were looking for better writing and gameplay but were usually dismissed by the more vocal and extremist among the gaming dev and media left like from Kotaku and Sweet Baby Inc and those that support them.
It was interesting the Elon musk retweeted the actions of SBI employee Chris Kindred who was responsible for escalating the situation.
I even tried to reach out to Chris and the owners of SBI to offer to handle their PR for them but was blocked by all of them.
in my experience the quality of a large game has very little to do with the ability of most of the staff involved.
As a group grows larger, the overall quality of the group's output trends towards average because most people are in fact average - what separates one group from another in terms of output quality is how much time they spend uplifting their average results with cycles of critique and iteration.
There are very few actually pivotal people in a given studio and those that really are tend to be the ones making the high level decisions regarding game design/art direction
The problem in my view is that we are dealing with Investors rather than game publishers in a post-fortnite world and to accommodate this we've switched focus from generating a product in order to get the next chunk of budget to generating proof that we've all been very busy ticking things off a list - player experience isn't a metric that really comes into the finances.
Not everyone on the SBI detected group support Trump. I actually joined their discord looking to mediate and found that they were looking for better writing and gameplay but were usually dismissed by the more vocal and extremist among the gaming dev and media left like from Kotaku and Sweet Baby Inc and those that support them.
And I wasn't satisfied with SBis involvement though I don't know the details of what they influenced.
Like reflector has decided to have
the actor behind Haroona have an Indian accent instead of have her converse in Bengali and Sanskrit with subtitles which would have added far greater depth to her character.
They also made her darker skinned and honestly should have just gone with an actress from India who actually understands the subject matter.
But the devs did research and hire consultants to better understand and be faithful to the setting in many respects, I just don't understand how SBI which mostly has employees with writing, literature, acting and liberal arts backgrounds would sincerely be able to consult on such a project.
When I first heard of them I assumed to find their employees with doctoral backgrounds in research oriented fields ranging from anthropology and sociology, but I do believe that they are mostly just leveraging their connections within the industry to influence studios to work with them.
It is a sound but controversial business strategy, but I'm skeptical about the merit of their service given the massive backlash they are facing now.
This employee for instance wants to burn the game industry to the ground and is pretty unhinged in their cold hatred towards white people.
It comes across as activism, advocacy and crusading masquerading as a consultancy, very left leaning and racist.
Some of their supporters have very disturbing views on Israel and openly support terrorists like Hamas and Hezbollah which adds a whole different dimension to the situation.
I also don't like the double standard inclusion where what is seen as necessary DEI in the west is censored in the middle east by the very people that see that region as some kind of secular haven for LGBTQ and women's rights
Like Sony removed pride flags and modified the LGBTQ side quest in spiderman to make the boy and his prom date platonic friends but that choice wasn't extended to the states because that would be bigoted.
Like they are quite willing to embrace bigotry for profit while willing to take a financial hit in the west to appease a minority so it's not surprising that many of SBI Detected curator see it as an subversive agenda.
I mean atleast the devs of dustborn (which autocorrects to dustbin) were honest about what the game was and which audience it was targeting.
It's bold to call someone else unhinged when you watched that and your takeaway was that they have "cold hatred towards white people".
Because the story was better. Because the worldbuilding was strong enough that these characters felt real, and that the stakes were real. I think switching from critiquing art, which usually is the stronger part of most games, to critiquing writing and gameplay would be a more productive debate.
For me, the reason why I didn't buy Outlaws was because I saw how bad the stealth mechanics were, and figured if such an oversight had been included in the game, that there would be more oversights. I honestly dont care how pretty or not Kay is, they're literally polygons
Anyways. Time to get back to creating any character or costume that I want, and perhaps rewatching the RHPS and Undercover Brother a couple more times
Or they really felt that the version of Kay they created seemed more authentic to the character of an outlaw, but some elements of how the design came together just didn't sit right with players, many of whom were very vocal about it.
For me, I just don't see it as a task done right. Like sure the hair is 80's, face is androgynous. She has a chin cleft for some reason, and there's some resemblance to Mark Hammil.
But if there was a possibility to go with a scan and just change the hair, I'd pick that since its simply straightforward with very low margin of error when it comes to appeal.
I also don't know if the character was tested for appeal, like did they bring gamers in and get feedback on Kay,
Again if the actor was involved after and used for publicity, you can't really blame gamers for feeling confused as to why the apparent face of the game (Humberly Gonzales) looks very different from the Kay Vess model.
Where I feel ubisoft went off the deep end is with the creative director taking a defensive stance citing bad faith people and to not engage adding more fuel to the fire.
Not sure how that contrasts with stellar blades director simply stating flat out that
“When it comes to the design, we put special attention on the back of the character because the player is always facing the back of the character when they’re playing,” Kim said. “That’s what they see the most of, so we thought this was pretty important.”
Kim added that when looking at a character in a game, he wants to play as someone who is “better-looking” than himself.
“That’s what I want,” he said. “I don’t want to see something normal; I want to see something more ideal. I think that is very important in a form of entertainment.”
“This is, after all, entertainment targeted for adults.”
I felt that there is just not enough exploration of Kay's backstory and how the child kay turns into adult kay with the models and personalities not really matching up in several aspects. (petty thief young Kay -> ex-meth addict post rehab street fighter Kay)Like its an odd approach to me because the studio wants to make the game appeal to players and yet doesn't want to go with what it feels is a trope, but then goes with an entirely different trope and when players consider it as a controversy they become defensive.
Then again maybe they didn't want it to be appealing to majority players and now have to answer to investors.
And yes when it comes to writing and game play, there's a lot that requires a suspension of disbelief, ubisoft tends to make games that don't challenge or frustrate players with the same generic repetitive gameplay across most of its licenses.
I can attest from experience that when you have diversity within a studio and this includes developers from backgrounds that SBI detected people consider to be woke, it does impact the games narrative and gameplay design.
And as with many minority demographics it can also impact future hiring, so the possibility of there being a toxic positive echo chamber is high, and what the audience actually wants might be lost in the creative void. (this destroyed Concord)
I sometimes feel that the idea of inclusion and diversity should be limited to studio demographic and culture, but the games design and development should focus on the success and viability of the product.
And certainly developers take inspiration from their lives, so it can make its way into game in a variety of ways, some of it may be seen as tokenism, and some propoganda, but as they are features it shouldn't take away from the core gameplay elements that the majority players want to experience without immersion breaking situations.
Its a more delicate balance for some games than others.
Like its probably not best to limit ones perspective by calling spiderman devs woke since it involves a side mission of setting up a prom date between 2 queer students, as it is calling the devs of stellar blade dirty perverts for wanting eve to have jiggle physics on her breasts and butt mounted on a very voluptous frame.
And both games sold 1 million copies, Ubisoft/Disney felt it was below expectations and Shift up/Sony felt their exceeded expectations
Though theres a vast difference in budget 300 million to 30 million
this is the actor,
They seem to be using a scan now and his chin has some loose skin that seems to bunch on in some shots which looks like a cleft.
I'm not sure if there is a trend towards chin clefts, but here's a study on chin clefts,
https://udel.edu/~mcdonald/mythcleftchin.html
atleast with Kay it does seem like a call back to Mark Hammil.
Honestly just give them all beards, even Kay Vess.
And my assessment that she might have been addicted to meth and a street fighter was based on the extreme changes in her face that many meth addicts do show and her living environment (she lived above a seedy bar) in Canto Bight
Rose Tico said
Atleast in Outlaws she is likely post rehab, but the scars of the hard life remain and perhaps the devs wanted to frame her development as a redemption story like Han Solo.
The Canto Bight connection was likely Disney forcing relevance for the last jedi since they have a movie coming out with Rey and honestly the new movies just didn't have sufficient world building like the prequels.
She's also extremely overpowered being able to beat up whole platoons of storm troopers with her bare hands.
Like her appearance really isn't too far from out of province panhandlers that I've seen downtown with pets and they fight in much the same way with drug dealers, bicycle thieves and the police.
@Rima
Somebody needs to point it out to the team, but honestly given the way the creative director addressed comments on the game, I don't think there is any point, but their actions did result in the game underperforming.
It is confusing though about why it came to this and what they plan to do about it.
Like a Mandalorian license is something that Ubisoft should have absolutely secured over one with kay vess.
They didn't have to do one with Djin Djarin, the character of Sabine Wren is ripe for a stand alone story and has an animated and live action presentation to offer both a strong backstory and current story.
And since EA/Respawn is occupied with the Jedi Series, this was the right time to secure ownership of that license.
Remember that when Respawn pitched for a star wars license, Disney offered them something very similar to Star Wars Outlaws, but their director really stood his ground on what he felt Respawns team would be able to realise their full potential on.
And this should have happened with Ubisoft.
But then Ubisoft commissioned this recently
and couldn't be bothered to make the actress look like the character in the game, so either they just never cared or this is the direction they are planning to go.
This kay doesn't even fight the strom troopers, Gremlin Nyx saves her.
pov: when op gets new reply
total immersion break for me. wont play
I have been looking into ubisofts sponsorships since the launch to better understand how they are marketing the game.
This sponsorship stands in stark contrast to the fan film.
It just doesn't feel like they took the character design and gameplay elements seriously, but their work on the environments is commendable.
That's why I feel that there should be more collaboration between studios, for example EA's HyperMotionV tech for facial and body animation would have benefited the characters if Ubisoft would have licensed those patents through Disney.
@Rima
I applied standards based on relevance and how immersion breaking it felt from a gameplay standpoint.
Some elements like getting shot and being able to heal instantly, not having to change clothes or shower or use a washroom are all standard and there are games that do include them to improve immersion or atleast allow a modding option for players.
example,
https://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/13275
So it really comes down to the scope of the game.
Not being able to carry weapons on ladders, Nyx being invincible, Kay being overpowered in hand to hand combat perhaps ubisoft felt that this didn't matter or that there were other elements in the game that would distract from these elements.
Maybe the approach to Kays design was too restrictive and they simply lifted elements from the films and put them together to create a character that they felt would appeal to players.
I'm not sure if they actually tested if her design was appealing internally since the criticism was almost instant the moment she was revealed and Ubisoft/game journalists immediately went on the defensive calling the critism a gamer gate conspiracy.
I felt that the creative director was more dismissive in his approach which didn't help the situation since players felt their concerns were not being taken seriously.
It really is the opposite of what happened with the Sonic Movie.
Outlaws seems like done and dusted kind of product, the possibility of a sequel is a maybe, Kay is just not that significant a character and the game arc is complete because a sequel isn't guaranteed.
Both Outlaws and Survivor excel in some areas and seem limited in others, but I just found Outlaws approach to its main character and the lack of gameplay elements immersion breaking, but maybe that's just the trend at ubisoft which has attracted the attention and concern of investors.
you're suggesting that a company should share proprietary technology that they developed to gain a competitive advantage over their competitors with their competitors?
that's genius! I can't believe everyone isn't doing it
I support a more cooperative culture of game development over the cutthroat competitive approach we see today that is filled with layoffs and poaching talent to undermine and devastate the competition.
It brings games back to being fun to develop and release rather than work in a environment where you have a sword dangling over your neck.
And it is possible to license tech or fully own it and usually we see larger studios doing this from smaller developers, so why can't it work between larger studios provided there are licensing terms that allow the tech to be shared and utilized in a sustainable and profitable way?
Another element I'd like to see is more transparency in development processes, using that to market a games progress with a greater focus on the developers efforts rather than marketing constantly telling everyone how great we are before laying us off en masse.
@Rima
While it is normal to lift inspiration from the films other licenses, I just felt that with ubisoft it felt really predictable that this is what they would do, and in a very superficial way.
All their games are really similar and I'm just not sure if there was an alternative that they disregarded because they either were too comfortable with their approach or they are simply a lot more risk averse than respawn.
For Disney it really was a matter of which company would take this idea on, since Respawn had refused it and stood their ground to make a game on Jedi.
Jedi Survivor is very dark souls, and the Mandalorian is really gritty in how it approaches loss and consequence.
The irony with Kay, is that in wanting to make her relatable they went with a trope making her a wholly forgettable character like Rey.
Like sure the game will have a niche audience that can relate to it in the same way how there are fans of the live action Little Mermaid, and its great that the game does have aspects that faithfully recreate the environment and ambience of the 80's
But had there been a culture where studios actively licensed tech they dont have instead of focusing on poaching employees that developed the tech in the hope for creating something proprietary, we may have had a better game in a shorter time.
The largest expense in video games is marketing and I find it difficult to justify that cost.
If that cost was moved over to sustain a more cooperative approach we wouldn't need marketing to keep convincing gamers on what to buy, the games being developed this way would speak for themselves.
I thought the actress looked like Lola from Shark Tale and I was accused of being speciest by two sides accusing each other of being racist.
If you are comparing revenue, the animated version had a budget of $40 million with box office of $235 million. Adjusted for inflation, that would come to,
80 million budget and 503 million box office.
Its way higher than the live action and more memorable by a long shot.
Disney does seem to have some reason with the direction they are going with their live action remakes, I just don't understand how its good for them.
This is a good video that sums up this other upcoming film that will likely end in disaster.
Like sure, if Disney sees profitability as, "we made more than just break even" and that's what their investors want then its all good.
Doesn't make for an iconic film or video game, that depends on the development team and their willingness and ability to create something they believe it and stand up for what they believe.
Stig Asmussen did for Respawn, maybe Julian Gerighty believed differently and investors just didn't agree with him, so he may not get a second chance.
Kay Vess doesn't seem too far from Rey, Lucasfilm games had been floating the concept of a Outlaws like Concept ever since Respawn rejected it.
It makes sense since they desperately want to capitalise on the void created by the last jedi and forcing it into the original triology era is a good way to make it relevant.
And I disagree that Djin Jarin was conceptualized as a clone of Boba Fett, they have very different personalities and motivations and Djin Jarin has a more interesting redemption arc, as a character he stands on his own and was iconic enough that I found myself skipping episodes of Book of Boba Fett to the episodes with Djin Jarin.
The Mandalorian series also becomes an ensemble story with Cara Dune, Greef Karga, Fennec Shand which rounds it out really well.
Outlaws does attempt this for a part of the game, but since its an origin story Kay can be very dismissive for most of the game, similar to Djin Jarin but with a fraction of the charisma, personality or mystery.
In my opinion, besides the poor facial animation and deficient backstory, she comes across largely as a very flat, one dimensional character.
Its Nyx that makes you want to interact with Kay not the other way round.
Then again maybe to Ubisoft, this is what a scoundrel was, and if they don't embrace a higher purpose they probably just remain like this.
I don't know how many players could relate to this perspective, clearly not enough to support the game and have it perform to expectations.
While Han Solo is seen as star wars representative scoundrel, I personally found Lando Calrissian to be more impactful and I'm glad that
About female characters, if a game about a gun slinger female character must be made, there were more credible and established alternatives to Kay Vess such as Sabine Wren, Bo Katan, the Armorer form Mandalorian, Cara Dune (the actress is controversial in her views), Fennec Shand, Hera Syndulla and Jyn Erso.
Unfortunately I couldn't find a single significant character from Episode 7,8, 9 since the only one we have with significant screentime was Rose Tico who was widely ridiculed and forcing a relationship between her and Finn wasn't well received. She was completely sidelined in Rise of Skywalker so maybe a game to resurrect the character might be possible but it carries considerable risk.
In fact neither character had any significant development through the series, though that side trip to Canto Bight is likely what forced the setting in Star Wars Outlaws.
Maybe Lieutenant Connix, Tallie Lintra or Paige Tico could have been further developed in an original story? Or a younger admiral Holdo.
Also I did suggest making a game on Sabine Wren as being significantly better since she has a well developed back story and is fresh out of Ahsoka, so setting an arc in the period just before the events of that series is very sensible.
Sabine is not queer and Dave Filoni does establish her as straight
"Dave Filoni explained that the reason why Ezra and Sabine didn’t get together at the point of the finale during the series was because he felt that it was more important to show that two people can have a strong connection, without being in a relationship."
But all through Rebels and early into Ahsoka, given her presentation which was widely seen stereotypically as possibly lesbian, she was assumed that she could be queer (even ending up with Shin Hati)
So ubisoft could have made a game and negotiated with Disney to make her bisexual before the events of Ahsoka if they were intent on inclusivity and representation.
But they didn't even bother doing that with Kay instead going with the strong female character stereotype which Sabine Wren already was and more.
So was no reason to create Kay as a hodgepodge of Han Solo, Luke Skywalker and to an extent Princess Leia and then build a world around her but Ubisoft wanted to make this game for reasons only known to their directors and market research and I do hope that they didn't give up a mandalorian pitch because they couldn't stand up for that concept like Respawn did.
Respawn
"As owner of the Star Wars intellectual property, Lucasfilm was protective of the Jedi as a "sacred" part of the franchise, and encouraged Respawn to make a shooter game about a smuggler or bounty hunter. However, Asmussen pushed back with his vision, convincing Lucasfilm to focus on a game with Jedi and lightsaber combat."
Ubisoft
"In 2020, the studio pitched a "scoundrel fantasy" concept to Lucasfilm Games, a subsidiary of Disney's Lucasfilm, envisioning a seamless open world gameplay. The idea was well-received by Lucasfilm, leading to the development of Star Wars Outlaws."
Lucasfilm games had been floating the concept of a Outlaws like Concept ever since Respawn rejected it so no wonder they received it well. I wonder if they are rethinking their stance on that now.
I do believe that Ubisoft may have been better served by making a game based on Mandalorians since there very clearly is demand for that. But seeing what they did with Outlaws I'm glad they didn't and likely never will.
The issue is that ubisoft didn't do a good job of it imo, so either they over estimated their potential or there was some other agenda that sabotaged their vision.
Or this was their vision and it just didn't appeal to an audience large enough for the game to perform to expectations.
Their PR when the criticism began also left much to be desired. Even if people are being trolls, they are still customers and a business should know how to respond to them and to gaming journalists that escalated the situation for their own reasons.
example: people saying "kay isn't as attractive as the actor playing her" shouldn't lead to "you can't be racist against white people" and "gamergate 2.0 will lead to a trump re-election"
It ends at kay when Ubisoft puts out a disclaimer saying "we have addressed customer feedback and have forwarded the matter to relevant teams" that's it.
Even if they don't do anything that disclaimer matters, not allowing your employees to get into culture wars on twitter because "their opinions are their own"
If they are getting death threats, escalate it to the relevant authorities, moderate what needs to be said publicly.
Filoni's work has demand and an established audience so its less risk, but must be done well.
And I do encourage originiality too if its done well.
Outlaws didn't feel really original though, more a homage to the Original trilogy in fact it does feel a lot like Alien Romulus in its approach if you've seen that movie.
I felt that this was the best review I found on the game.
https://www.vgchartz.com/article/462633/star-wars-outlaws-xs/
Be great if development wasn't under a veil of secrecy, I've always been a supporter of more transparency and audience involvement in game development but I understand how difficult it is to implement this with the current corporate competitive approach.
Rima said: That's uncalled for; I'm a fan of "Filoni's shit." If you're done with the discussion (I don't blame you), you can just just stop without having a mic drop moment.
No one's convincing anyone of anything, and there's a lot of argument from both sides around what you think other people are thinking.
No, that's not a judgement on the quality of his work, or a mic drop or whatever. Maybe it's a casual thing where I live? "Shit" like "thing". Like, let's say you make a load of drawings, you say "Look at all this shit I drew" or "I drew a load of shit then went to bed."
I was objecting to the "furiously wanking off...." part of your comment - It was unnecessary.