Trying to understand overtime hours in the industry
I am just getting into 3D. I am really interest to work in movies and games, just i am not sure which one to go. Just now, i am practicing hard surface modeling. I am posting this thread, just to get to know you guys and to understand the industry. What i mean with this is.... how do you guys work so many hours at work? I read so many topics about working, more than 10 hours every day, for weeks even months. The day someone doesn't work, is that when the project is over. Do i need to move to other studio or country or continent when the project is done? Is full time job is not even possible in movie industry or in gaming?
When or if i get to work in this industry, do i need to stay every day late at night? What if i leave... let's say after 8pm home, does my employer will yell at me or fire me??
When or if i get to work in this industry, do i need to stay every day late at night? What if i leave... let's say after 8pm home, does my employer will yell at me or fire me??
Replies
Also, I'd recommend listening to "Which Studio Is Right For You?
http://gim.acanaday.com/?p=140
http://wiki.polycount.com/wiki/Game_Industry#Employee_Rights
Having a good management team who tracks all timing and making realistic prediction is a god send in this regard.
In a rare case working at a place that uses blanket overtime, I have been punished (taken into a meeting room and talked to, received a bad annual review)/highlighted to the rest of the team (emails breaking down everyone's overtime hours, which deliberately causes tension in the team) because I have not done 'enough' overtime Despite being on schedule with my tasks.
as has been said above a lot of people like to brag about how much overtime they have done on a project, however it should really be the opposite attitude.
Working long hours feels great at first. But there are many downsides, and they're scientifically proven.
The 40-hour week was determined the optimal amount of work time through studies. Working long hours in one stretch is bad for physical and mental health.
Skipping lunch is also fairly bad.
But besides the mental and physical toll, working long hours for someone else usually means you aren't paid for that time. They're making extra money off you, without giving it back in turn, directly to you. Promises of future reward don't mean a thing, and even if you get something it's usually worth a lot less than the amount of effort you actually put in, when compared to your normal salary in hourly terms. Unless you have an ownership stake, then it's different.
in my opinion, crunch and overtime are at best poor managment and bad planning from the ones with decision power, at worst a deliberate strategy to cheat you out of your deserved pay.
and it was the people that went home on schedule that was the weird one's, It's a bad spiral as you pressure other people to do the same
and create a new standard for what is normal, leaders get used to this and what they would normally expect from a day at work will change with it.
Eventually your body can't cope with it and you realize you were destroying your body for no reason. If you really want to get ahead in the game industry, you probably should become a producer.
@Odow, while I understand that every studio works differently it seems pretty clear that this kind of approach can only make the issue worse. Not only does it bend the expectations that your leads/producers will have on your coworkers, but it is also likely going to end up being a problem for you too.
If you are regularly spending 10 hours on a task that was actually scheduled for 8 just for the sake of delivering early (or even just on time), then all your future tasks will end up being scheduled based on a distorted estimate - which in turn will cause more OT to be necessary. This kind of overtime is the "not so fun" kind, and leaves a much, much different taste in the mouth than the "enthusiastic" overtime done for the love of it.
Also, I understand that you don't mean much harm by a statement like "[...] with people like me who love to stay to work" but it is actually quite condescending to your coworkers.
Now I am taking these as an example, so don't take it as a personal attack or anything of the kind. It's just that I have witnessed similar situations first-hand in the past and nothing good came out of them - therefore I just cannot not react to it.
@Bokchee :
When or if i get to work in this industry, do i need to stay every day late at night? What if i leave... let's say after 8pm home, does my employer will yell at me or fire me??
No, you don't have to stay late at night, and it is perfectly possible to have a successful and fulfilling career in this field without doing any overtime. All you have to do is to act like a professional, that is to say : giving clear and realistic estimates when asked how long a task would take. It is also very important to learn how to say no. For instance, is someones comes to you to ask you for "just a simple thing, you know, done real quick", answer by directing that person to your lead and/or producer which will then schedule it accordingly.
Lastly : a regular work day doesn't mean going home at 8pm, but rather at 5ish / 6ish / 7ish pm. Big difference
Just gets to the point where you could be earning more money for doing some far easier.
I just want to chime in a little with my experiences. When I first started in the industry I busted ass a lot because of excitement but also because I enjoyed doing the work and wanted to 'get ahead'. However I definitely agree to heed the warnings other have mentioned in earlier posts. More specifically:
- working more hours distorts management expectations as Pior said and that can lead to a cycle of increasing overtime and/or missing important deadlines.
- work your core hours, get your shit done, then go home. You don't have to go home, I don't care, but stop working on work-stuff unless you have a very good reason to. I stayed at work after my tasks were done but worked on personal art instead (I just liked the office environment). I was able to grow my skills more working on specific things I wanted to learn than by simply doing more of my general work. This is actually quite nice because you're going to be improving at your work skills during work anyway, so your personal art time can be used to learn a new skill which can raise your overall value and capabilities. It's a far better investment of time than doing more work for your company if you're not getting actual OT pay for being there. Consider it!
- and also as mentioned, odow, it won't be like that forever. you WILL want more personal time as you get older so just try to keep a balance, but use that energy you have now towards yourself or personal/side projects instead.
I also want to bitch about how fucked it is that mismanagement cascades down and screws everyone, requiring more hours. Usually to salaried people who won't be getting any OT pay but have to stay and make up time for poor estimates from above. It's not universal, and sometimes it's the artist's fault for underestimating how much time they need (assuming they are consulted, which they should be).
@pior Mising the end of my sentence here >.< "people like me who love to stay to work [to do overtime]" By that i didn't mean to be condescending at all, Au contraire, I really really love my coworkers! My life would be really sad without them, I meant that for some people it can be troublesome and tiresome, while for me at this moment it's not.
My day end at 17h30. When i feel like i'm tired i go home at 4, i don't push myself, but most of the time I just keep working until the last "fast" bus to go home which is at 17h30. (even if i left at 4h i would ended up at home around 17h because of traffic, I just get at the office more early ) It's really really rare that i have to stay later than that.
I'm not a slave, I'm not killing myself at work, I have plenty time for personal life, I don't distort anything or break, I just work fast, enjoy working, so i do extra when we need to and i feel like it, so nobody get forced into it as the end of the sprint. I like being involved in my project more than " Do this assets and kthxbye" and for that I do extra hours. also i eat, it's just that during cold period i eat in front of the pc, while in summer i go outside with everyone ! I'm healthy and happy :P
I Hope i'm more clear >.<
I love this system, it works really well for me and you don't feel tied down with it
- starting really early to be able to leave in the afternoon. yes, theoretically. but to your colleagues and especially management your effort may not be so visible. they *might* just see an empty desk at a time when everyone else is still in and busy. careful with that, use with moderation.
- pool for overtime worked. at what ratio are these counted before you can cash them out? never saw it done 1:1. also you might not be allowed to carry them over for too long or take them out exactly when you'd like them. i've seen coworkers getting forced to take their accrued OT at times they weren't particularly happy with it or face losing their pool.
lastly, flexitime doesn't solve the OT/crunch issue. but sure beats starting at 9:30 sharp after some really bad commute with all the other sheep just because somebody determined that to be the company wide start time.
That's really liberating. Work from home when you need to. Arrive and leave when you need to.
We end up putting in full time or more, just because we want our contributions to be the best they can be.
But this kind of setup is rare though. Most of us have worked together before, so that's part of it I guess.
The second point, I don't think I've seen people being forced to use their OT hours. For us at least, Flexi hours and OT hours are different thing. You can have a max of 40 Flexi hours before you are capped and you have to use them (maybe this is what you are referring to), but when you are in OT mode, the pot is unlimited.
But yeah, it doesn't solve it for sure but it does give you a tiny bit of leeway at least... and once you come out of crunch, it's nice to book a good amount of time off with some of the hours you saved up without having to dip into your day allowance each year.
Also we would have deadlines changed on us all the time because the client demanded it and had no idea how long things could take. It really wasnt always due to bad management. Not sure if it's the same in the game industry.
I'll say that I've seen a bit of this, but at least in the UK it seems that studios are still predominantly (almost exclusively in most cases) hiring full-time, permanent, salaried positions.
and @yukonwanderer
there's nothing special about working conditions in the games industry as such. the difference is that it is considered/sold as a kind of dream job which causes some to crash pretty hard when they see their original expectations shattered. go in there expecting a job and you likely won't get bruised. still pretty fun overall.