Yes, if you want to draw then you can go from zero to hero in a year easily. Again, if you 'want' to.
Personally I love character art but find a lot of the time only interested in doing rough sketches of anatomy or comic characters, so drawing at times can be a bit of a chore - gimme zbrush over a pencil and paper anyday! Although can't deny it's good to practice drawing fundamentals, e.g. Pose, perspective, etc. really helps you improve your 3D faster.
I'm willing to bet Yuri can draw better than I can. And I don't think I'm the worst illustrator to be an artist. I agree that talent is difficult to quantify and that arguing about it is moot which is why I suggested OP post some 2d and 3d work he has done.
If you do not draw how will you make stylised characters and hand painted textures?
By sculpting/modeling and painting, I would presume. It's also quite feasible to have input to give to procedural texture generators without drawing it.
A lot of what people are saying in favor of drawing seems to be rooted in the misconception that the skills behind drawing accurately are only taught by drawing/learning to draw. It's perfectly possible for someone to have a thorough understanding of form, value, etc. and not use a pencil or pen at any point to acquire that knowledge.
Why is it all about Character Artists and not artists in general?
I think it's pretty natural to ask, as most aspiring artist think about concepting their own awesome characters to then realize in 3d. The exact same goes for environmental artists.
As an aspiring environmental artist I struggle with this aswell, since being a concept artist is very hard, requires just as much time and dedication as any other artist in the gaming industy. As a beginner it feels difficuly to know whether to spend time developing the concept or modelling/texturing skills. Very intimidating, as you feel as if you need to be proficient with what is essencially two different jobs.
Why is it all about Character Artists and not artists in general?
I think it's pretty natural to ask...
You have a point there. I know that I could get more freelance work or even attempt to make my own game if I could code or take the time and commitment to learn to code. I love drawing but can't say the same for coding. I'm aware of code-free dev tools but I'd still rather spend my time just doing art. In other words, I'm not and never will be a tech artist.
I have tried to learn, but presently I'm okay with my own preferred set of skills.
Going back on topic, personally I'd would just focus on what available resources you have to go to the next step. If it's to get a modelling job then work on becoming good in modelling (character, enviro, props, etc.) Once you're earning as a modeller see if you now have time, funds or interest to expand your skillset. To level up.
Waiting to be good at things other than modelling (the op's choice) is just needlessly delaying your progress. Your supposed to just put your best art on your portfolio and drawing presentation ready pieces can take years of learning and practice to achieve if you're starting from zero drawing experience.
I didnt want to offend the non drawing/painting/fingerpainting/wacom doodling people... please do not throw stones at me I was only trying to say that it's a great thing to do and that it gives so much that it is a shame not to even try.
Oh, there certainly are different learning speeds. No doubt. We all see that every day.
If we both start at equal drawing level, and we both draw 1000 hours, we most likely wont be at the same level after that. That is where deliberate practice comes in. A lot of people think they practice, when they dont. Depending on how you practice, you can speed up you learning by quite a big factor. I have read a few books on it, and I find it quite interesting.
I guess "talent" is quite loosely defined as well. People seem to mean slightly different things, when they say it.
Yea talent is often loosely defined. The way I reason through the potentials of the advantages of learning speeds in regard to talent is this. If there are variations of speeds in learning, then by extrapolating an outlier there is reasonable bases for extreme cases of talent.
I define talent as variation of learning speeds and perhaps brain development.
I do not think someone is born good at art, that comes with experience, some are just faster learners than others which is often thought as being talent.
Many beginners look at the average Polycounter and consider them "talented". This ignores passion, commitment and hard work. I think the concentration is misplaced, resilience is far more important.
I've only met one person who I would consider talented, he was able to do extremely complicated calculus calculations in his head. But often times these advantages come at a cost to other areas of the brain.
There are some fantastic character artists out there with some pretty poor drawing skills but they have enough skill to get there idea on paper and if you are lucky enough to hand over the work to a concept artist even better.
I would say the biggest reason learning to draw is a good idea is that its not just a skill for drawing images it will teaching you the basics of proportion, composition, perspective, colour theory and much more. These skill will help you with photography or presenting your characters in their best possible way. For example a Minotaur would have its body mass forward due to its evolution of having huge horns on its head, this would have also effected its muscles on the back such as the trapezius and so on.
I have worked with a few concept artists that have turned their hand to 3D and they can really excel and surpass other 3D artists obviously with time and a lot of dedication.
I can make a character in 3d but I cant draw it that well. I started 3d before any interest in 2d. Only then I realized how 2d can actually help me with my character making. My biggest problem with 2d is the perspective and although I am aware of the theory but I just cant make it as perfect as it should be. This problem does not exist in 3d and therefore I can easilly create complex forms. Another good thing is that you can study anatomy directly in zbrush and avoid any obstacles occurred by drawing. I think it is important to be interested in your subject and if you are interested in 3d then start with just 3d and maybe later you will be interested in 2d as well.
some people have a knack for concepting, but others, which I include myself are good at observational drawing( whether that is in 3d or 2d )
I not sure if that is to do with visual memory
I have a good imagination ,but maybe it's just easier to realise other peoples visions sometimes, which is what 3/4 of characters modellers are about.
So yeah I was a 2d illustrator before I got in to 3d, but I was never the type to make up wacky robot designs, my brain does not seem to be wired up to do those kind of things easily.
I was ok at life drawing, but never that confident, was not too bad at producing watercolours/airbrush stuff but ask me to make up a cartoon character then I am lost.
essentially I am a copyist and I don't feel too bad about it:)
it's not that you hate drawing, it's that you hate that you can not draw well
I'm not a character artist, but as an environment artist who is shit at drawing, this is definitely true. I'd like to learn to draw but it's just very off putting to see how bad I am at it. Also I'm more inclined to spend my free time mastering modelling and texturing.
i gave up on drawin years ago, why? because there are way better people for it and I love to work in teams - i can create my own concepts if needed, but i prefer working with other people who are better at it.
Very far. There's an abundance of great 3d artists who can't draw. While drawing can help you understand basics, perspectives and just train your eye and brain to notice details and silhouettes. Some artists are versed in photo manipulation for concepts, for example, instead of drawing. You can climb Olimp without knowing how to draw. Same with 2d artists who don't know how to model in 3d. 3d is more of a craft than anything. The blacksmith don't need to draw to make the most beautiful and awesome swords.
I've been doing 3D artwork for 10 years and coding for 15, I'm horrible at drawing and I was never too good at coding either. But neither did I let that stop me on any accounts, I've built game engines and made tons of game models. It's just been a reverse engineer / rinse and repeat ordeal until you get it right..
The most important thing has to be an eye for detail and generally figuring out how things fit together, you don't even really need to know anatomy if you can practice reverse engineering decent hi-poly models. I don't really tend to sketch or concept TBH, I'm much better and modifying until I get it right. Sure it's probably not the quickest way but it works for me.
I'll agree having a good eye for things is an innate talent and a must really, as for the rest it's a matter of learning.
In summary, there's tons of things I don't like doing and some parts I find almost painful. But I'll sit there and do it until it's right, that's the beauty of art in general even coding as an art you have to figure out your strengths and take advantage of them.
In summary, there's tons of things I don't like doing and some parts I find almost painful
While I agree that "fighting through it" can be a good attitude, I think it's important to realize that when a creative act feels painful, it most likely is because one is not giving oneself the proper means required to reach the desired goal.
For instance "I suck at drawing/painting/modeling profiles ! Therefore I must draw profiles over and over again until it works!" is a plain waste of time *if* no time is taken to select a bunch of good references pictures. (photographic or otherwise).
It sounds a bit obvious but I find it dangerously easy to overlook.
I've been doing 3D artwork for 10 years and coding for 15, I'm horrible at drawing and I was never too good at coding either. But neither did I let that stop me on any accounts, I've built game engines and made tons of game models. It's just been a reverse engineer / rinse and repeat ordeal until you get it right..
The most important thing has to be an eye for detail and generally figuring out how things fit together, you don't even really need to know anatomy if you can practice reverse engineering decent hi-poly models. I don't really tend to sketch or concept TBH, I'm much better and modifying until I get it right. Sure it's probably not the quickest way but it works for me.
I'll agree having a good eye for things is an innate talent and a must really, as for the rest it's a matter of learning.
In summary, there's tons of things I don't like doing and some parts I find almost painful. But I'll sit there and do it until it's right, that's the beauty of art in general even coding as an art you have to figure out your strengths and take advantage of them.
If you don't enjoy drawing with pencils and find it painful... forget it, seriously. You won't be a really good character artist, never. There are too many easy tasks like being a mapper or a "level artist" (wtf, with that pretentious title!).
All the great sculptors i know, all of them, draw well or very very well. For me it's a must have because the drawings are like maths for any engineer or serious/real programmer. They are the pilar of all. All the 3d monkeys on every studio, mainly the bad ones, need the assistance of the concept artists team with hundreds of drawings and views. The worse is when they ask for side/front/top/back views...
Anatomy studies are good at a certain point; the majority of people tend to "copy" what they see, without understanding anything and that's pretty bad imho. Not all people have the same anatomy, muscles for example. I have asked several guys: "do this using your imagination", and almost all failed badly.
The requirements for a character artist are higher nowadays, and it's very difficult to find a good candidate for the job.
To sum up, if you can't draw your ideas on a paper, you will have it very very hard. Some guys use references for all because they forget all, and for an artist, we must have photographic memory as well.
But well, there are those new "character artists" that are using bodies and meshes from great artists, playing like frankenstein. Or those "character artists" that use app such as poser... in that matter, they really don't need to know anything, because they are just toying around with the work of another artist they don't care of.
Please, don't be a lazy-ass and learn the basics... for god's sake.
Wow, so much horse shit in one post - that's pretty impressive Blaizer! Firstly, being a good prop/environment artist (or 'level artist', whatever) is just as difficult as character art, its just a separate set of skills you have to master and perfect. I like the way you start off by condescending them with the implication that they're pretentious, oh the irony.
Also, the term '3D Monkeys' is great and not at all patronizing ¬_¬ I'll tell you now that when I work I don't tend to need orthographic images from front, top and side views... although I'm not a good example of someone who's into character art who can't draw very well, I'm still honing my skills. I wish I could show you some of the work a couple of my tutors did at Escape Studios, drawing skills were really lacking, but when the guy got in ZBrush he was feckin godlike. I won't dispute that having foundational drawing skills won't help you as a character artist, but telling budding character artists without drawing skills they won't make it is just idiotic, its possible to learn these skills through being a sculptor alone, tenacity and persistance. Look up Seth Nash, (sorry for the name drop bud) I believe he was claiming recently that he doesn't draw a heck of a lot, but if you look at his work it rocks hardcore!
In all honesty I think you have way too black and white of a view of this, but I'm interested in hearing the riposte. Peace bro
Oh, there certainly are different learning speeds. No doubt. We all see that every day.
If we both start at equal drawing level, and we both draw 1000 hours, we most likely wont be at the same level after that. That is where deliberate practice comes in. A lot of people think they practice, when they dont. Depending on how you practice, you can speed up you learning by quite a big factor. I have read a few books on it, and I find it quite interesting.
I guess "talent" is quite loosely defined as well. People seem to mean slightly different things, when they say it.
I honestly dont believe that exists. NO practice, equaling THOUSANDS of hours of practice for others? So a random caveman just sits at a piano for the first time, never heard any music in his life, and blows away the world with his symphonies?
I know that is probably not what you mean, and yes, surely people start off at varying levels. Obviously, I dont know much about the subject (I assume no one on these forums are brain researchers or masters of psychology/learning, etc), but from the books I have read on the subject, every single "prodigy" or vastly talented person, have all had their reason to be where they were. They all actually started where we all start, but they where exposed to things that made them better from childhood.
It ties closely to the topic of drawing and 3D. A friend of mine, who is very solid in digital painting, had never done any 3D, at that time. I saw him the first time he opened ZBrush, he didnt know what a polygon was, or how 3D worked. Yet he did a character sculpt that was solid enough to surpass what I have seen others do after a relatively long time of practice in character art. I was amazed by it! But it all came from his knowledge of proportion, anatomy, gesture etc.
So, would that count as being vastly talented, as he was literally opening ZBrush for the first time in his life?
While I dont know your friend, I believe there are similar reasons for him to be a wizard at the piano, for that simple reason, that every time there are studies on prodigies, it has turned out to be like that.
If I have missed something, if there are indeed proof of talent or of some prodigy that are inexplicably good at something, I would love to read about it.
TO put it on a bumper sticker (someone said that on PC, and I love the phrase) I believe that everyone using deliberate practice, will be at the same level after 10,000 hours (which is generally accepted as the amount of time one needs to put into anything to be truly good at it) no matter where they came from.
This is of course all my perspective on it, as no one in the world knows this for sure
But im interested in the other side as well. What do you believe? That everyone are capped at a certain level? Or how do you think talent works?
Sorry, but this is just not true. He got his first putter when he was 1 year old, AND his farther was a golf trainer specifically good at teaching kids to play golf. Tiger have therefore had the very best circumstance for learning his entire life. They even said, that his farther would do puts in the garage, while tiger was still a baby sitting in a babychair, so he would watch his father put intstead of watching Tv like most other kids.
The differences between Tiger and the billion other golfers are both countless and extreme.
Talent, prodigy... words like that only exist while you are young. There are people who are just better than others just by showing up. Are they masters? no, but they could be, and could be faster than that 10000 hour average. I knew 2 people in school who were gifted artists, granted they s--- their talent away in later years, both of them, while still in school, and this was 5th grade for one, and 6th grade for another, had... I would say employable skill levels for how good they can draw. One had a firm grasp of anatomy, but lacked finishing detail, and the other had detail down good, but hid flaws in anatomy inside a style.
Practice from a young age? No, they both despised the arts. They just had a natural ability that put them ahead of everyone else in the class till mid high school when art was an elective class, the people who wanted it got better, while they... did not. there were students in the art room till my last day there that those 2 could draw circles around, but there were at least 5 people in each class who were noticeably better.
The reason that talent and prodigy are only words used to describe kids is because there are many who are just better, no real reason for it, some learn faster than others and absorb the knowledge like no one else can, and there were others who like I said, just had to show up and are better than anyone else. Once you become an adult, you could still be talented, and you may be a prodigy at something, but the people who wanted it have hard work backing them up, and its not as easy to just show up and be the best.
, seems a lot disagree with my statement... That's fine we all learn differently, I need to reverse engineer and it's the way I function. It may be odd to a lot of people, but that's how I do it. (Probably a coders trait)..
Is it the right way? Probably not, we do have other artists here which are technically trained and decent at what they do and I just help out. But it seems to me some are saying if you can't draw, then you don't have a chance at all with character modelling and I'd disagree (well to some extent) depends on the person. I make games and do whatever it takes to get there.
If it appears as a blanket statement apologies, that wasn't my intent I can only go off my own experiences.
I should explain better about anatomy, with a decent reference to learn from it got drilled into my head how dimensions should be, muscle placement / lumps n bumps / jawline / eyes etc.. By watching others doing impressive models, sculpts and sitting down with others who knew more than me. The terminology you don't need to know it is incorrect, what I mean is when you do character modelling even if you don't know it you'll learn one way or another.
I'm not an artist but it's something I enjoy doing when coding gives me a migrain I find it relaxing and I help out the artists, I've attempted a fair amount of char models over the years. Do you believe it's impossible to learn from others and practice? Just put hard work in, sculpt from references until you get it right?
A lot of the people on this forum are far more talented than me, so I'm honestly intrigued.
I don't think anyone has a problem with the idea of reverse engineering.
It's just that "not even needing to learn anatomy" and instead focusing on being able to replicate the exterior surface quality of an existing model seems like strange advice. I personally think that modeling the human form that way can lead to awkward and oddly looking figures, with too much emphasis on detail/hard edges/folds over convincing tension and form.
Not only that, but working from the structure out is also, in my opinion, faster !
In other words : working from the "outside in" would mean skipping all the important bits here - which would eventually lead to a lot of painful fixing, trying to make things work after the fact.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZOwUgyoEy0"]How to Sculpt the Female Torso - YouTube[/ame]
Actually, back to the OP : of course, one could argue that the sculptor in this video is not drawing per say. But still, doing a few crude sketch studies of the internal structure of his sculpture is something anyone can achieve - so why not benefit from the knowledge and quickly do that, as opposed to being dead set on doing it in Zbrush ?
All the great sculptors i know, all of them, draw well or very very well. For me it's a must have because the drawings are like maths for any engineer or serious/real programmer.
I don't think it is true at all.
But I also think that sculpting in 3D and drawing have a really weird connection, someone that doesn't draw at all might have more difficulties that some one that draws a lot. I guess it's all about the eye in the end, someone that is used to draw, will be more used to toy with shapes.
After some consideration, I felt I needed to come back to this thread for a slice of humble pie, as I was so adamant that you didn't need drawing skill to be a good character artist.
Even though I still stick by that to a certain extent, I have to say drawing studies do actually make a world of difference. Recently I started sketching again properly (not just half-assing it while watching TV, but actually taking time out to do it) and I feel it can really help boost your observational skills, as well as give your eyes a rest from the computer screen. I would recommend anyone to try and get into it if possible, even an hour or 2 a day can help a lot!
seriously my last contract was 'make me a 3d model from this concept' and I duly obliged. i really do not need to draw in 2d to do my job.
modelling in 3d is a kind of drawing in itself
I should add that i have a good background in 2d drawing, but I just don't really need those skills these days
well as I mentioned I consider 3d modelling a form of drawing, so yes in that regard, but i am not the 2d concept kind of guy, so i stick to my strengths.
i think the whole argument is a bit of a moot point as we all know that on the average art team there will be a good 2d guy who will feed you concepts.
i can't remember ever being asked to produce 2d concepts in all my time in the industry.
i think the only thing I do regret is not using my imagination more and outputting 'ideas' to feed my 3d work.
I consider this more of a design issue than a lack of drawing ability
just for the record, I used to be a 2d illustrator, doing scientific illustration, stuff like tiger skulls, very detailed drawings, but I am not capable of doing made up drawings, my skills lie in good observation.
Mike - when I mentioned drawing I wasn't meaning from a conceptual standpoint, more for observing forms, light and shadow, gesture, which is pretty important in any art medium imo, 2d or 3d
It's been a while since this thread was bumped so I don't think anyone is arguing that you should draw because you're going to have to make concepts but because it's a foundation skill that helps in all forms of visual art.
I have been called on plenty of times to concept & do illustrations in studio. I usually enjoy it unless it's UI/graphic design, that stuff drives me nuts.
ok course,I get that point, but the original post seems to imply that you need to be a good 2d conceptualizer to succeed as a 3d guy.
then we gt to debate whether workling out forms 3d is a actually drawing or not:/
well justin, I get a bit frustrated that i can't do concepts like bobo, but i learned to live with it. I think it would take me as long these days to produce a nice 2d character as making it in 3d as a blockout.
This is the last thing I did in 2d maybe 5 years ago
I have also taken up 2d art as a serious thing. I haven't updated my sketchbook in a bit because I've been busy, but I've been drawing every day for a while now, I've watched a lot of theory and tutorials, gotten some amazing personal help/live guided practice from one of my favorite 2d artists, and been reading books on it as well.
I enjoy it, I really do. I think that 2d practice is really fantastic 3d practice. I also think that there are more conscious skill representations that were more forced to think about in 2d that we don't get in 3d, the major of these being lighting, color, and composition, and to a lesser degree gesture and shape.
I think that practice in 2d will help with your 3d immensely, but I've always suspected this. I also still feel like there is nothing holding anyone back from getting good at 3d by only doing 3d. Will probably be a longer road, I would have definitely been better off starting 2d first of at the same time, but I don't think it's a requirement, and I'm not kicking myself for not starting sooner. I feel like we all have paths and our own blocks and breakthroughs, and while the 2d route might be faster, I've really enjoyed the 3d route.
For anyone thinking of taking up 2d, I have loved the book " drawing on the right side of the brain".
Almost all of his "science" is just fanciful pseudoscience and reads like bs, but the exercises and lessons themselves are fantastic and useful in learning to see and think differently. I suspect he was asked to write new intros over and over so they could keep re-issuing the book, but at it's core it's very powerful and focused.
If I was forced to say, I would say that there are areas where I feel like I have an easier time excelling than others. Shapes are one, I think I do pretty good at simplifying shapes in space, since that is mostly how I try to look at 3d when I am sculpting.
But when it comes to: lighting, composition, color, perspective, and finish, not so much. Like, I have an understanding of them from working in the environment, but because a lot of it is automatic or easy to overlook in 3d, I feel like there isn't much cross-over. I can already see how learning these things aid in 3d. I think they are skills you can get in 3d definitely, if you study them and try a lot of experimenting, but I also think that they are easy to ignore, so without specifically being conscious about it, most people (including me) probably overlook them. But 2d is different. You can't do anything in 2d without thinking about all of these elements and trying to work them together.
So I do feel like 2d gives you a much better overall picture of art, vs 3d, which I feel like can become a sort of filter for more specific things.
But there are also things that I think are better trained in 3d, for instance anatomy, since you have to know what you are doing in space vs. single views.
Anyways, its all very early, I should probably put in a year or two before I say anything with any real conviction.
Its important to get into a good mindset with it as well, not to sound corny but you need to believe that it will help and make a difference to your art overall, if you approach it from the point of the view of "I suck at drawing, what is the point of this" it will feel like a slog and you'll likely want to do other things other than sit there and sketch.
That's definitely true, thankfully I find it really relaxing when I'm able to let to and just practice.
Which reminds me of something I wanted to say but forgot:
One challenge of learning 3d first that I hadn't considered, was that this time, unlike when I was learning 3d, is that my "art eyes" are much more developed now.
When I say art eyes I am reffering to my ability to judge my own work. When I started doing 3d, I used to think everything I did was pretty good... Until the next day. The next day would be when my eyes would have learned to see what was wrong. I always felt like I had this dual learning thing going on, my skill set and my eyes. They would leap frog each other. I would max my skill set on a piece and think it was amazing. Then my eyes would develop and id realize it wasn't, so I'd go back to working on my skill set, and my eyes would think what I did was awesome, until the next day . Repeat infinite days. There has to be a better way to explain this but that's the best I'm doing at 4am.
But now with 2d my eyes know what I'm doing is shit with every stroke, so there isn't that lag where I would have to wait to discover the problems. It was a challenge at first to keep myself motivated in 2d, since that is pretty discouraging to never like your own stuff even while you're doing it . But in the end I realized I enjoy the process of learning, and I know it's a personal journey now, so I'm less eager for that than I am with just getting the chance to zone in and have fun and relax and practice. So well see how that works out.
One thing I'm struggling with is line quality, (would be good to hear from some 2D guys and how they tackled this when starting as well), but I am in the habit of 'petting in' lines, erasing and drawing again rather than drawing solid strokes, which makes the line art really shite XD I've seen some people sketch in pencil loosely, then use pen to sketch in solid lines, I guess it's just a case of practice and gaining confidence with it after time
Replies
Personally I love character art but find a lot of the time only interested in doing rough sketches of anatomy or comic characters, so drawing at times can be a bit of a chore - gimme zbrush over a pencil and paper anyday! Although can't deny it's good to practice drawing fundamentals, e.g. Pose, perspective, etc. really helps you improve your 3D faster.
Agreed.
A lot of what people are saying in favor of drawing seems to be rooted in the misconception that the skills behind drawing accurately are only taught by drawing/learning to draw. It's perfectly possible for someone to have a thorough understanding of form, value, etc. and not use a pencil or pen at any point to acquire that knowledge.
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=125737
Next! :P
I think it's pretty natural to ask, as most aspiring artist think about concepting their own awesome characters to then realize in 3d. The exact same goes for environmental artists.
As an aspiring environmental artist I struggle with this aswell, since being a concept artist is very hard, requires just as much time and dedication as any other artist in the gaming industy. As a beginner it feels difficuly to know whether to spend time developing the concept or modelling/texturing skills. Very intimidating, as you feel as if you need to be proficient with what is essencially two different jobs.
Yeah but if you look at their website they have a foundation of strong 2D skills. http://fafart.blogspot.com/p/2d-work.html
You have a point there. I know that I could get more freelance work or even attempt to make my own game if I could code or take the time and commitment to learn to code. I love drawing but can't say the same for coding. I'm aware of code-free dev tools but I'd still rather spend my time just doing art. In other words, I'm not and never will be a tech artist.
I have tried to learn, but presently I'm okay with my own preferred set of skills.
Going back on topic, personally I'd would just focus on what available resources you have to go to the next step. If it's to get a modelling job then work on becoming good in modelling (character, enviro, props, etc.) Once you're earning as a modeller see if you now have time, funds or interest to expand your skillset. To level up.
Waiting to be good at things other than modelling (the op's choice) is just needlessly delaying your progress. Your supposed to just put your best art on your portfolio and drawing presentation ready pieces can take years of learning and practice to achieve if you're starting from zero drawing experience.
Yea talent is often loosely defined. The way I reason through the potentials of the advantages of learning speeds in regard to talent is this. If there are variations of speeds in learning, then by extrapolating an outlier there is reasonable bases for extreme cases of talent.
I define talent as variation of learning speeds and perhaps brain development.
I do not think someone is born good at art, that comes with experience, some are just faster learners than others which is often thought as being talent.
Many beginners look at the average Polycounter and consider them "talented". This ignores passion, commitment and hard work. I think the concentration is misplaced, resilience is far more important.
I've only met one person who I would consider talented, he was able to do extremely complicated calculus calculations in his head. But often times these advantages come at a cost to other areas of the brain.
[ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBLphUAUtDo[/ame]
I would say the biggest reason learning to draw is a good idea is that its not just a skill for drawing images it will teaching you the basics of proportion, composition, perspective, colour theory and much more. These skill will help you with photography or presenting your characters in their best possible way. For example a Minotaur would have its body mass forward due to its evolution of having huge horns on its head, this would have also effected its muscles on the back such as the trapezius and so on.
I have worked with a few concept artists that have turned their hand to 3D and they can really excel and surpass other 3D artists obviously with time and a lot of dedication.
30-60 minutes every day on drawing websites can turbo charge your skills. http://artists.pixelovely.com/practice-tools/figure-drawing/
http://www.paintingportraittips.com/andrew-loomis/
I not sure if that is to do with visual memory
I have a good imagination ,but maybe it's just easier to realise other peoples visions sometimes, which is what 3/4 of characters modellers are about.
So yeah I was a 2d illustrator before I got in to 3d, but I was never the type to make up wacky robot designs, my brain does not seem to be wired up to do those kind of things easily.
I was ok at life drawing, but never that confident, was not too bad at producing watercolours/airbrush stuff but ask me to make up a cartoon character then I am lost.
essentially I am a copyist and I don't feel too bad about it:)
I'm not a character artist, but as an environment artist who is shit at drawing, this is definitely true. I'd like to learn to draw but it's just very off putting to see how bad I am at it. Also I'm more inclined to spend my free time mastering modelling and texturing.
The most important thing has to be an eye for detail and generally figuring out how things fit together, you don't even really need to know anatomy if you can practice reverse engineering decent hi-poly models. I don't really tend to sketch or concept TBH, I'm much better and modifying until I get it right. Sure it's probably not the quickest way but it works for me.
I'll agree having a good eye for things is an innate talent and a must really, as for the rest it's a matter of learning.
In summary, there's tons of things I don't like doing and some parts I find almost painful. But I'll sit there and do it until it's right, that's the beauty of art in general even coding as an art you have to figure out your strengths and take advantage of them.
While I agree that "fighting through it" can be a good attitude, I think it's important to realize that when a creative act feels painful, it most likely is because one is not giving oneself the proper means required to reach the desired goal.
For instance "I suck at drawing/painting/modeling profiles ! Therefore I must draw profiles over and over again until it works!" is a plain waste of time *if* no time is taken to select a bunch of good references pictures. (photographic or otherwise).
It sounds a bit obvious but I find it dangerously easy to overlook.
Ehh? :poly117:
+1
no
portfolio please.
As Chuck Jones once said, Every artist has thousands of bad drawings in them and the only way to get rid of them is to draw them out.
Andrew-Loomis on Amazon
George Bridgman on Amazon
George Bridgeman
All the great sculptors i know, all of them, draw well or very very well. For me it's a must have because the drawings are like maths for any engineer or serious/real programmer. They are the pilar of all. All the 3d monkeys on every studio, mainly the bad ones, need the assistance of the concept artists team with hundreds of drawings and views. The worse is when they ask for side/front/top/back views...
Anatomy studies are good at a certain point; the majority of people tend to "copy" what they see, without understanding anything and that's pretty bad imho. Not all people have the same anatomy, muscles for example. I have asked several guys: "do this using your imagination", and almost all failed badly.
The requirements for a character artist are higher nowadays, and it's very difficult to find a good candidate for the job.
To sum up, if you can't draw your ideas on a paper, you will have it very very hard. Some guys use references for all because they forget all, and for an artist, we must have photographic memory as well.
But well, there are those new "character artists" that are using bodies and meshes from great artists, playing like frankenstein. Or those "character artists" that use app such as poser... in that matter, they really don't need to know anything, because they are just toying around with the work of another artist they don't care of.
Please, don't be a lazy-ass and learn the basics... for god's sake.
Also, the term '3D Monkeys' is great and not at all patronizing ¬_¬ I'll tell you now that when I work I don't tend to need orthographic images from front, top and side views... although I'm not a good example of someone who's into character art who can't draw very well, I'm still honing my skills. I wish I could show you some of the work a couple of my tutors did at Escape Studios, drawing skills were really lacking, but when the guy got in ZBrush he was feckin godlike. I won't dispute that having foundational drawing skills won't help you as a character artist, but telling budding character artists without drawing skills they won't make it is just idiotic, its possible to learn these skills through being a sculptor alone, tenacity and persistance. Look up Seth Nash, (sorry for the name drop bud) I believe he was claiming recently that he doesn't draw a heck of a lot, but if you look at his work it rocks hardcore!
In all honesty I think you have way too black and white of a view of this, but I'm interested in hearing the riposte. Peace bro
on anything, not just this topic
No.
Talent, prodigy... words like that only exist while you are young. There are people who are just better than others just by showing up. Are they masters? no, but they could be, and could be faster than that 10000 hour average. I knew 2 people in school who were gifted artists, granted they s--- their talent away in later years, both of them, while still in school, and this was 5th grade for one, and 6th grade for another, had... I would say employable skill levels for how good they can draw. One had a firm grasp of anatomy, but lacked finishing detail, and the other had detail down good, but hid flaws in anatomy inside a style.
Practice from a young age? No, they both despised the arts. They just had a natural ability that put them ahead of everyone else in the class till mid high school when art was an elective class, the people who wanted it got better, while they... did not. there were students in the art room till my last day there that those 2 could draw circles around, but there were at least 5 people in each class who were noticeably better.
The reason that talent and prodigy are only words used to describe kids is because there are many who are just better, no real reason for it, some learn faster than others and absorb the knowledge like no one else can, and there were others who like I said, just had to show up and are better than anyone else. Once you become an adult, you could still be talented, and you may be a prodigy at something, but the people who wanted it have hard work backing them up, and its not as easy to just show up and be the best.
Made me make an account just to respond to this.
Is it the right way? Probably not, we do have other artists here which are technically trained and decent at what they do and I just help out. But it seems to me some are saying if you can't draw, then you don't have a chance at all with character modelling and I'd disagree (well to some extent) depends on the person. I make games and do whatever it takes to get there.
If it appears as a blanket statement apologies, that wasn't my intent I can only go off my own experiences.
I should explain better about anatomy, with a decent reference to learn from it got drilled into my head how dimensions should be, muscle placement / lumps n bumps / jawline / eyes etc.. By watching others doing impressive models, sculpts and sitting down with others who knew more than me. The terminology you don't need to know it is incorrect, what I mean is when you do character modelling even if you don't know it you'll learn one way or another.
I'm not an artist but it's something I enjoy doing when coding gives me a migrain I find it relaxing and I help out the artists, I've attempted a fair amount of char models over the years. Do you believe it's impossible to learn from others and practice? Just put hard work in, sculpt from references until you get it right?
A lot of the people on this forum are far more talented than me, so I'm honestly intrigued.
It's just that "not even needing to learn anatomy" and instead focusing on being able to replicate the exterior surface quality of an existing model seems like strange advice. I personally think that modeling the human form that way can lead to awkward and oddly looking figures, with too much emphasis on detail/hard edges/folds over convincing tension and form.
Not only that, but working from the structure out is also, in my opinion, faster !
In other words : working from the "outside in" would mean skipping all the important bits here - which would eventually lead to a lot of painful fixing, trying to make things work after the fact.
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Actually, back to the OP : of course, one could argue that the sculptor in this video is not drawing per say. But still, doing a few crude sketch studies of the internal structure of his sculpture is something anyone can achieve - so why not benefit from the knowledge and quickly do that, as opposed to being dead set on doing it in Zbrush ?
But I also think that sculpting in 3D and drawing have a really weird connection, someone that doesn't draw at all might have more difficulties that some one that draws a lot. I guess it's all about the eye in the end, someone that is used to draw, will be more used to toy with shapes.
Even though I still stick by that to a certain extent, I have to say drawing studies do actually make a world of difference. Recently I started sketching again properly (not just half-assing it while watching TV, but actually taking time out to do it) and I feel it can really help boost your observational skills, as well as give your eyes a rest from the computer screen. I would recommend anyone to try and get into it if possible, even an hour or 2 a day can help a lot!
modelling in 3d is a kind of drawing in itself
I should add that i have a good background in 2d drawing, but I just don't really need those skills these days
i think the whole argument is a bit of a moot point as we all know that on the average art team there will be a good 2d guy who will feed you concepts.
i can't remember ever being asked to produce 2d concepts in all my time in the industry.
i think the only thing I do regret is not using my imagination more and outputting 'ideas' to feed my 3d work.
I consider this more of a design issue than a lack of drawing ability
just for the record, I used to be a 2d illustrator, doing scientific illustration, stuff like tiger skulls, very detailed drawings, but I am not capable of doing made up drawings, my skills lie in good observation.
I have been called on plenty of times to concept & do illustrations in studio. I usually enjoy it unless it's UI/graphic design, that stuff drives me nuts.
then we gt to debate whether workling out forms 3d is a actually drawing or not:/
This is the last thing I did in 2d maybe 5 years ago
and it's a bit shit overall
I have also taken up 2d art as a serious thing. I haven't updated my sketchbook in a bit because I've been busy, but I've been drawing every day for a while now, I've watched a lot of theory and tutorials, gotten some amazing personal help/live guided practice from one of my favorite 2d artists, and been reading books on it as well.
I enjoy it, I really do. I think that 2d practice is really fantastic 3d practice. I also think that there are more conscious skill representations that were more forced to think about in 2d that we don't get in 3d, the major of these being lighting, color, and composition, and to a lesser degree gesture and shape.
I think that practice in 2d will help with your 3d immensely, but I've always suspected this. I also still feel like there is nothing holding anyone back from getting good at 3d by only doing 3d. Will probably be a longer road, I would have definitely been better off starting 2d first of at the same time, but I don't think it's a requirement, and I'm not kicking myself for not starting sooner. I feel like we all have paths and our own blocks and breakthroughs, and while the 2d route might be faster, I've really enjoyed the 3d route.
For anyone thinking of taking up 2d, I have loved the book " drawing on the right side of the brain".
Almost all of his "science" is just fanciful pseudoscience and reads like bs, but the exercises and lessons themselves are fantastic and useful in learning to see and think differently. I suspect he was asked to write new intros over and over so they could keep re-issuing the book, but at it's core it's very powerful and focused.
If I was forced to say, I would say that there are areas where I feel like I have an easier time excelling than others. Shapes are one, I think I do pretty good at simplifying shapes in space, since that is mostly how I try to look at 3d when I am sculpting.
But when it comes to: lighting, composition, color, perspective, and finish, not so much. Like, I have an understanding of them from working in the environment, but because a lot of it is automatic or easy to overlook in 3d, I feel like there isn't much cross-over. I can already see how learning these things aid in 3d. I think they are skills you can get in 3d definitely, if you study them and try a lot of experimenting, but I also think that they are easy to ignore, so without specifically being conscious about it, most people (including me) probably overlook them. But 2d is different. You can't do anything in 2d without thinking about all of these elements and trying to work them together.
So I do feel like 2d gives you a much better overall picture of art, vs 3d, which I feel like can become a sort of filter for more specific things.
But there are also things that I think are better trained in 3d, for instance anatomy, since you have to know what you are doing in space vs. single views.
Anyways, its all very early, I should probably put in a year or two before I say anything with any real conviction.
Which reminds me of something I wanted to say but forgot:
One challenge of learning 3d first that I hadn't considered, was that this time, unlike when I was learning 3d, is that my "art eyes" are much more developed now.
When I say art eyes I am reffering to my ability to judge my own work. When I started doing 3d, I used to think everything I did was pretty good... Until the next day. The next day would be when my eyes would have learned to see what was wrong. I always felt like I had this dual learning thing going on, my skill set and my eyes. They would leap frog each other. I would max my skill set on a piece and think it was amazing. Then my eyes would develop and id realize it wasn't, so I'd go back to working on my skill set, and my eyes would think what I did was awesome, until the next day . Repeat infinite days. There has to be a better way to explain this but that's the best I'm doing at 4am.
But now with 2d my eyes know what I'm doing is shit with every stroke, so there isn't that lag where I would have to wait to discover the problems. It was a challenge at first to keep myself motivated in 2d, since that is pretty discouraging to never like your own stuff even while you're doing it . But in the end I realized I enjoy the process of learning, and I know it's a personal journey now, so I'm less eager for that than I am with just getting the chance to zone in and have fun and relax and practice. So well see how that works out.