How far someone can go without drawing skill as character modeler?
I know there so much thread about this topic. But i really want to know, how someone like me, who hates drawing, can go or can become awesome character modeler without drawing skill?
I really want to make characters for movies and games, and i am having fun with Zbrush etc. But i hate to draw. What are my chances?
I really want to make characters for movies and games, and i am having fun with Zbrush etc. But i hate to draw. What are my chances?
Replies
Drawing and painting wouldn't hurt, I would say the same thing in regards to a 2D artist learning 3D. It's all just tools that are used to enhance the creation process.
Think he mentioned he didn't draw much but has some outstanding character art!
I have genuine reasons to hate drawing.
just play to your strengths and if you are getting work with your current skillset then why worry
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The way I see drawing is that it is a very good method for improving quickly. You can go as far as you want only doing 3d, but it does seem to take longer. If I could do it all over again I'd definitely spend more time drawing. I still know that it is a skill I will pick up at some point.
Not everyone is cut out to be a character artist, then again not everyone is cut out to be a programmer, a fireman, or a nun.
2D isn't essential to character art but as you progress up the career ladder you will probably find a lack of ability to communicate ideas quickly and effectively via drawing to be a source of much frustration.
If you have a genuine passion/borderline obsession for character art then throw yourself into it, work hard ...bloody hard actually. Be prepared for both joy and despair at your skills or apparent lack thereof as you develop but keep at it. You may not achieve your goal, or the goal may shift, but until you commit to the process you will never know.
To the OP : may I challenge you on this, if you don't mind ?
Here is a simple test. Let's take this sheet from Kevin Chen. Sorry for the low quality, I couldn't find a sharper one - but it doesn't really matter anyways, it's readable enough.
Would you be willing to do a few studies from it ? It doesn't even have to be the full sheet - just a few parts really. You don't even have to post the results - they are irrelevant, and keeping things private is cool. Oh and of course, Photoshop is not allowed for this test. Just pencil and paper.
If you end up enjoying the process and the results, that means that you don't really hate drawing after all ; it simply means that you hate not being able to draw something that you don't know how to draw in the first place. And that's perfectly normal ! Everyone gets that without exception.
I hope I am not being pedantic here. It took me years (decades even ?) to understand this simple fact, but once I did it was extremely liberating. Maybe it'll help you too. By the way, sorry for not directly addressing the original question. I just felt that the word "hate" was a bit disproportionate and I wanted to address that part.
I don't quite understand....I was paying a compliment....
I mean, it would certainly make it more enjoyable if you or I were better at it, I imagine. Maybe even if you were talented and had put in the work, you would still dislike the act itself, but its hard to believe that you would still like really disdain it at that point.
Who knows. If you really hate drawing, then dont, you will get better at things if you just go all in with 3d, and there is no plateau that you will reach where it goes 'you can't draw so you can't get over this particular hurdle'. You put in the time, your skill will keep increasing, simple as that.
You can still get to any level of mastery you want if you don't draw. Might make it easier, but that's not guaranteed. Not knowing how to draw will not put a limit on you.
But, i can't do something that i don't like it doing it. Even 5min to draw now, i won't do it, because i am starting to frustrated myself.
But yet again, i see opening positions for modelers, some studios require someone to draw as 3D character artist. Some don't like MPC.
I really want to get at level as Bulgarov, i know he is drawing, or, like, Jerad S Marantz etc etc.
lol, EXACTLY like me
Thanks, Negev, for your explanation
Talent doesn't exist.
At least, there have never been any proof that even hints at the existence of talent,and a ton of proof to the contrary.
And yes, Mozart and Tiger Wood have put in the exact same amount of hours and deliberate practice as everyone else will do to get to that level, they just started much younger than most. Much much younger. Along with other factors, of course, but they are all documented and follows the same pattern as everyone else. There is no magic, no grand scale luck or talent.
There is the difference between practice, deliberate practice and people with self-discipline and people who lack it.
I can really relate to disliking drawing, but I do know that it is purely because I suck so incredibly hard at it.
As others have pointed out, you dont reach a plateau because you cant draw. Drawing is good, because it helps you learn faster, as have also been said.
To put it on a bumper sticker, you get to do a lot more iterations when drawing, compared to doing 3D, as it is just so much faster, and as science have proven many times, that is part of the deliberate practice that makes us better faster.
There are quite a few good books on the subject, from some complex ones about how the mind and myelin works, to some more easy to read book onhow to get the most out of your practice.
If you are interesting in reading, you can start with "Talent is Overrated", which I found to be quite good, and easy to read compared to some of the more heavy brain researcher stuff I also tried.
EDIT: If you are a dwarf, you might have trouble getting to NBA. But in our field, no limits.
When you say draw do you mean putting anything that you have in your head onto paper?
If yes, then I can understand why you are getting frustrated. I get frustrated when I can't draw what's in my head as well. Why? because we are tying to come up with designs with no foundation. We haven't studied what we are trying to draw. How can you draw a person if you don't know what a person is. What holds them together? If you don't know human anatomy then your character might as well be a rock because you don't have the knowledge to draw a person.
So personally, I believe there is studying, copying reference and learning. Then there is concepting, using what you have learn't to come up with designs.
Start off with studying! sit down and copy pictures of real world things or if you can get the objects in real life, even better. It's a lot less stressful, you don't have to show anyone and most importantly you are learning.
I agree pretty much with you on the part that. i can't express what is on my head on paper. I actually will do it in Zbrush rather than a paper.
The second thing is, i know i need to learn foundation. Like Anatomy, but i want to learn in Zbrush, more fun for me, and i can do it over and over and over again.
I am getting pissed and frustrated, just because i am drawing, then i need to erase, i will destroy the paper, then, get a now one etc etc.
When i had art classes in elementary school and in high school. Will you believe me that, i was the only one, that had empty paper from the entire class?
Sorry i wasn't attacking you on your knowledge of foundations. What i wanted to get across was to try drawing by just copying.
Don't try to express anything. Start off with copying. I honestly believe you are getting fustrated because you are trying to draw without prior knowledge. Things such as perspective and shading are given to you in 3D so when you try to put an idea in 2D it can be a lot harder. So what what I was trying to get at is loosen up, take away any pressure you are giving yourself and just copy a picture of something.
This - very well put
i think it's important to note here, that Yuri is a modeler, he's not an artist.
*giggles*.
There are two ways of approaching art the 2D and the 3D.
A 2D artist is like a painter, sketch artist, etc.. You need to be able to visualise the world in pictures.
A 3D artist is a sculptor. He sees not from one view but has to see the object as a whole from all sides.
A 2D artist might or might not visualise all sides of an object as it is not absolutely necessary.
A 3D modeller is a sculptor. He makes the object from all sides; thus it is in fact better to be a sculptor if you want to be a modeller.
If you can't draw but can sculpt you have an equal footing as anybody in 3D modelling. Your success depends on the amount of effort and time you put into it.
To be a character/creature modeller you must must learn anatomy. That is the best way. The better you are at anatomy the better you will be able to represent your characters/creatures in either a realistic or a stylistic manner.
If you can't understand anatomy you must learn to sculpt/model environments. To model environments you must understand scene composition, material definition and lighting. The better you know these the better you can create realistic/stylistic environments or props.
Dont start that again...we will have to start an argument with every poster then rant at Tom when he suggests that we all go make some art...the bastard
in particular this:
I totally agree with this while it is not essential that you know how to draw, it is useful to know how to draw to be a great artist. Drawing helps in visualisation, understanding lighting, composition, and design.
i disagree. it's not going to take you longer nor is it going to be harder. it's going to take you about the same, i think 3D takes even less time to be good at. it's a separate skill.
Also even beyond that it can only help you to learn 2D at the same time as 3D. It is silly to encourage someone to ignore a useful skill set.
How would you explain a pheomon / prodigy that have had little to no practice yet do things that are on level of those who have practiced thousands of hours?
A close friend of mine is a piano prodigy. He just started playing one day (literally) and was amazing and better than others that had been playing their whole lives.
You're not really looking at the science if you claim that there has never been any proof of different degrees of learning capabilities. Everyone learns at different rates, some learn faster than others, this is often referred to as innate talent. Obviously talent without hard work is quite meaningless, but it is there.
However, I do agree that talent is overblown in importance among new artists.
okay, same thing applies to 3D, if you have a 3D background, you'll be better at 2D than someone who doesn't have that background. same discussions come up on different forums with traditional sculptors, plenty of them don't know how to draw as well as they can sculpt.
i'm not discouraging him/her, but if he doesn't like it, he can skip it and still be great. it's his decision.
naw, i hated drawing just as much when i was starting 3D, but a year or two in i started loving it. don't know how it happened, i think it's because of the competition.
But that is just my point the two disciplines are intertwined. The main reason people don't like to draw is because they aren't as good. Which the only remedy for that is to draw more. I have seen tons of concept artist friends mess around with 3D for the first time and put stuff way better than my first attempts. I however have rarely ever seen the reverse. Drawing is a foundational skill for sculpture. It is a fact ask any master sculptor. There are rare exceptions, but that doesn't mean anyone can just skip learning how to draw ( at least to a basic level) and be good a sculpting. How are you going to even begin to sculpt properly if you don't have a firm understanding/ training in perspective, value, lighting, or shape? All of which are primarily learned through a 2D lens. Do you think a person like Scott Eaton got a good as he is because he just sculpted?
To be clear I am not saying you need to be an amazing 2D artist, but you need to be able to draw at a basic level. You need to understand light, form, perspective , and value with 2D first.
At the same time, one thing everyone agrees on is that hard work is extremely necessary to get good at just about anything, even if you are or are not 'talented'.
So for a lot of people, the discussion of 'talent' isn't really worth anything, since nobody can say for sure what is or is not going on, and everyone agrees anyways that even if it exists, it is probably not the largest factor, which would be practice and hard work over time.
So not much point in anyone arguing about it (in my opinion), unless you are going to talk about less mental processes, and more physical. For instance the genetic makeup of fast-twitch and slow-twitch muscle types, which actually do have a great deal to do with the upper ceiling of competitive athletes - or height, or hand size, or leg length, etc.
Well put!
Also, as Scott Eaton once told me, if you can sculpt something, you cant always draw it. But if you can draw it, you can sculpt it.
Its true, I have seen it happen to quite extreme degrees
Oh, there certainly are different learning speeds. No doubt. We all see that every day.
If we both start at equal drawing level, and we both draw 1000 hours, we most likely wont be at the same level after that. That is where deliberate practice comes in. A lot of people think they practice, when they dont. Depending on how you practice, you can speed up you learning by quite a big factor. I have read a few books on it, and I find it quite interesting.
I guess "talent" is quite loosely defined as well. People seem to mean slightly different things, when they say it.
I honestly dont believe that exists. NO practice, equaling THOUSANDS of hours of practice for others? So a random caveman just sits at a piano for the first time, never heard any music in his life, and blows away the world with his symphonies?
I know that is probably not what you mean, and yes, surely people start off at varying levels. Obviously, I dont know much about the subject (I assume no one on these forums are brain researchers or masters of psychology/learning, etc), but from the books I have read on the subject, every single "prodigy" or vastly talented person, have all had their reason to be where they were. They all actually started where we all start, but they where exposed to things that made them better from childhood.
It ties closely to the topic of drawing and 3D. A friend of mine, who is very solid in digital painting, had never done any 3D, at that time. I saw him the first time he opened ZBrush, he didnt know what a polygon was, or how 3D worked. Yet he did a character sculpt that was solid enough to surpass what I have seen others do after a relatively long time of practice in character art. I was amazed by it! But it all came from his knowledge of proportion, anatomy, gesture etc.
So, would that count as being vastly talented, as he was literally opening ZBrush for the first time in his life?
While I dont know your friend, I believe there are similar reasons for him to be a wizard at the piano, for that simple reason, that every time there are studies on prodigies, it has turned out to be like that.
If I have missed something, if there are indeed proof of talent or of some prodigy that are inexplicably good at something, I would love to read about it.
TO put it on a bumper sticker (someone said that on PC, and I love the phrase) I believe that everyone using deliberate practice, will be at the same level after 10,000 hours (which is generally accepted as the amount of time one needs to put into anything to be truly good at it) no matter where they came from.
This is of course all my perspective on it, as no one in the world knows this for sure
But im interested in the other side as well. What do you believe? That everyone are capped at a certain level? Or how do you think talent works?
Sorry, but this is just not true. He got his first putter when he was 1 year old, AND his farther was a golf trainer specifically good at teaching kids to play golf. Tiger have therefore had the very best circumstance for learning his entire life. They even said, that his farther would do puts in the garage, while tiger was still a baby sitting in a babychair, so he would watch his father put intstead of watching Tv like most other kids.
The differences between Tiger and the billion other golfers are both countless and extreme.
I should have read ysalex's post before I started the long ramble. He just summed up what I should have written.
Thanks!
Not learning how to draw, you are limiting yourself when it comes to getting jobs in game studio environment. This is true not only for drawing, but for many other partial skill sets.
Also if you decided you want to become character designer rather then a modeler (and often working on other people's designs) it may be a bit difficult to communicate your designs to other modelers if you can't draw them. This tidbit may or may not be important for you, depending on ling term goals.
What I'd be concerned more then drawing is that you are closing your mind to learning something new because it is tough and awkward. That kind of attitude may prevent you from developing other skills, not just drawing. Doing art for work is still work, hard work.
I do not believe Ysalex can not draw, I bet if he were trained in a classical art school for just one year he'd do "miracles". I've seen it happen, people who almost never drew but commited themselves for a year became very very good (It was a very good art school though, you were really taught usefull things).
Vitaly Bulgarov talks about how fundamental drawing is in his podcast interview,how he took some time off to just grind that skill and how much it has improved his work.
You could say "Dude I concept in Zbrush I dont need pen and paper" but i'd call bullshit on that, nothing beats pen and paper to quickly convey ideas and designs.
How can you hate drawing? It's the greatest thing ever. You can be bad at it but it leaves so much room for progress. If I may give some advice, start small, don't try anatomy or manga bullshit at first, draw what you see (shoes, keys...), the first thing I learned in art school was values, that drawing is adding shadow and light, we drew a sphere and gave it different values.We learned how you can use the eraser to add light, drawing is very much like sculpting.
If you try to reproduce some naruto bullshit you won't learn anything.
Also eople that create great stylised art know their fundamentals very well , I myself am very bad at stylised art because I still struggle with the fundamentals.
Sorry for ranting around, I am a modest hobbyist when it comes to game art but it's a discussion I am pretty passionate about and I wanted to show him how much he has to gain from drawing
Last time I tried to draw, my daughter started to cry, and My wife threw away everything magnetic in our house just so there was no way it accidentally ended up on the fridge.
I can reproduce materials in something like zbrush, so most of my textures are hand painted, but it's definitely different than knowing perspective and these things. It doesn't bother me too much, but one day I will rectify it.
It's a matter of how you see it. If you think sketching would benefit you, give it a go. But not knowing how to draw doesn't mean you won't be able to be a character artist.