Have i a wrong LowPoly Workflow?

Gazu · Dec 2013

Hi Polycounters,

at the moment im modeling a KRISS VECTOR Weapon.
But im still not happy with the Triscount.
It´s about 12k and there is still missing some geometry and shapes.
At the end it will come out at about 18-20K and that will be too much.

Have i a wrong workflow?
Is it wrong to use Edge Loops to model in Shapes, like the deepenigs in the handgrip?

I could make it with the normal, but from the first person camera this wouldnt look good. Are there some possibilities to reduce the triscount? Maybe collapse, or something similar?

Is it better to work with the Create Polygon Tool? But then there are a lot of unconnected Vertices and smoothing is not really possible. This would turn out into a ugly wireframe, or?

I mean, i could connect them all, but then there are maybe 10 Vertices on the left side and 20 vertices on the right side and this will turn out in a mix of quads and triangles... ?

I hope that somebody can help me to improve my 3D Skills.

Gazu

Obscura · Dec 2013

If you want to make this to be a first person weapon, I would really recommend to build a highpoly model first, because the realistic fps weapons always have normalmap for smoothness, and because the smaller elements like screws can be just normalmapped. Your current mesh is not lowpoly by the way, because it has tons of edges that dont do anything. I mean they dont change the silhouette at all. You can weld/target weld the unnecessary edges easily, so you can make the tricount a lot lower with this. This (or similar) is how the topology should look if we talking about a lowpoly model:
http://www.bradm3d.com/images/TDI%20Kriss%20Super%20V/KrissLowPoly.jpg

Gazu · Dec 2013

Yeah, the problem was the deepenings in the handgrip.
I have used a lot of edge loops, to become some vertices to move then in place and to intrude this shape in the handgrip. Maybe for LowPoly Modeling the edge loop tool is not the best choice,because you will get a edge loop all around the whole mesh..sure the Create Polygon Tool and then connect the vertices in any way will save a lot of triangles.

But i dont know if this will work...i have used the edge loop tool since i started with Maya...

Gazu

warby · Dec 2013

yeah there is ways to build your geometry with far fewer polys same shading and silhouette just look at the wireframes of everyone elses 3d models that you can find all over this forum.

to answer your question: "yes" work on your lowpoly workflow

Gazu · Dec 2013

I think it´s not correct to use the Edge Loop Tool.
When i see the deepenings on this picture then i can say that this guy doenst use them,too...hmmmm..... Q_Q

javcop · Dec 2013

When it comes to low-poly, usually the silhouette is your main focus when modeling. Imagine if your model was painted entirely matte black. Your focus would only be on the overall form while doing whatever you can to keep your tri count low. Which means you'll often have to use a combination of triangles and quads while modeling.

Details would be introduced in normal maps and other textures. I'm not sure what you mean by "deepenings", but if you mean crevices or parts of the model that have depth that don't affect the silhouette, you can capture that information with a normal map.

The model you have now would be considered more of a high-poly model. Keep this model and try to create a lower poly version to which you could bake to. Try to aim under 3k tris. Good luck!

Here's a reference for what your low-poly should sorta look like: http://img-new.cgtrader.com/items/4874/low_poly_weapons_mega_pack_3d_model_eff8ecdb-d147-428d-9a53-d78e1a7dd5eb.jpg

Gazu · Dec 2013

Hi Javcop,

thanks for your answer.
You´re right. But how can i model in some depth without using the Edge Loop Tool. Because i need some Geometry to set the vertices in place.
I have marked the pieces that i want to be geometry.

The marked parts are responsible for the high tris count.
Dont know how to model that different.

Is it important that a low poly mesh looks ok when it´s smoothed?
Not really, or?

passerby · Dec 2013

model like you have before, than delete and weld edges. or create that inset sepratly delete the geo where you want to place it, than use bridge to connect it back in.

it doesn't matter what the LP looks like when smoothed.

why are you doing a LP only, a lot of details in this would be best baked from a high poly.

Gazu · Dec 2013

Actually i have planed to make a LowPoly Version without bake and to make the details in ndo2. For Smoothnes im doing some bevels and the option -> Soften Edge.

ABBEY18 · Dec 2013

It is best way to go with HP first. When ready use HP model for a cage to create LP and you wouldn't need to smooth LP model

Gazu · Dec 2013

Actually i made some test bakes with the "Middlepoly"

Kriss. I gave the LowPoly Model some support edges and made him high poly.
I baked it to receive some fake smoothnes. And yeah, it comes out very clean. But for tests i automatic uv mapped the whole weapon, just to see the baking. Now i will UV Map the weapon for texturing and bake it after that again.

What possibilities have i for recreating a low poly model from a high poly? Whats the best, fastest and cleanest way? Maybe Topogun? Or must i create all shapes again, just low poly...? How can i use a Cage to make geometry of him, specialy in maya?

Gazu

Obscura · Dec 2013

Making the lowpoly for hard surface models is usually happening with just removing every unnecessary edges from the highpoly, and welding the remained unnecessary edges/verticles. Then if you still don't have reasonable tricount, you can remove more edges while its not enough. This is the easiest way for a hard surface model. Topogun/retopo works better for organic models, like characters.

Gazu · Dec 2013

Thanks!
I have tried to clean up the low poly model with the "collapse" tool.
The Problem is : I get a lot of Triangles with vertices in the middle. The Wireframe looks ugly and it happens that when i collapse the wrong edge that some edges come over another and that destroys the mesh...

Gazu

Obscura · Dec 2013

Triangles are totally ok on a lowpoly mesh. Try the target weld tool if there is. I'm not a maya user, so I don't really know. When I searched about it, I found that there isn't. But some other results was saying that there is. Try to search it

Obscura · Dec 2013

Now I see your pic about how you mean its ugly. I would say you dont really need that inwards beveled shape on your lowpoly, and try to make it look similar to the one that I showed earlier. If you really want that thing, I still recommend that target weld thing.

Gazu · Dec 2013

Haha! xD
Ok i will search for it. When there is no weld tool i will collapse all faces and edges per hand.... ^^

ABBEY18 · Dec 2013

this are good lessons:
http://curriculum.autodesk.com/student/public/teacherresource/curriculum/id/40/page/1#
just launch the curriculum "Maya vehicle for games"and you will learn a lot of usseful stuff

Gazu · Dec 2013

Thanks Abbey.

Question: Why my Geometry is getting sick after some cleanup?

Obscura · Dec 2013

This is a smoothing group issue.You need to edit the smoothing groups. Or, the normalmap can solve this.Bake it, and lets see if its making it better. Check out this thread: http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107196

Gazu · Dec 2013

Hm...a lot to read.Thanks!
I have cleaned up the LowPoly and have now a tris count of 8,7K
I think this is good. With the EO-Tech it will maybe grow up to 10K.

I have harden the whole mesh because the lightning bugs was confusing me.
So, how to move on now?

Gazu · Dec 2013

So...the LowPoly has reached a Triscount of 7K

But i still have the Smoothing Group Issue.

Is it important to smooth the Border Edges to get a softer look? There is no normal map on it.
Or can i leave the Mesh "Harden" and make it with the normalmap?
When the mesh is "harden" there is no smoothing group issue.

And the normal contains seams

Bruno Afonseca · Dec 2013

Making progress!
So, I suggest you read this over and over until you get it:
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=81154

Gazu · Dec 2013

Ok i will read me through this! Thanks people!

I made the UV map and now it´s ready for baking. But i think there will be much errors in there...

Obscura · Dec 2013

You don't need to harden all the normals, just on the harsh angles. Like how you would do at a simple "hard edged" mesh. But the two links that you got will be useful. Plus here is a new one

http://wiki.polycount.com/NormalMap?highlight=%28%5CbCategoryTexturing%5Cb%29

Gazu · Dec 2013

The first bake came out with errors. This damn seams are visible and they are making me crazy........ Q_Q
I tried it with various settings in xnormal, but the normalmap comes out ugly , as always

Thanks for the link. I must try to understand those long texts. Hey im from germany!

Gazu · Dec 2013

I made some Bakes, part to part and some parts come out clean and nice and some parts are making me sick. For example the Barrel comes out clean, the bolts, or the shoulder support.
The Picattiny Rail is OK, not best but OK.

I have uploaded the LOWPOLY and the HIGHPOLY as an FBX File.
And the Maya File,too.

I would be very thankful that some pro

looks over this weapon and tell me specially to this mesh why it´s not possible to have a clean bake of all parts and how to solve that. I have tried a lot but it dont come out clean.

Here is the link to the FBX, Maya and Normal File :
http://www.mediafire.com/download/urq569w3irr9mdk/TroubleKrissie.rar

Thanks!
Gazu

Quack! · Dec 2013

I took a look at your low poly and there are some major issues.

Did you export the FBX with smoothing groups? Because the file I loaded had none. On top of that you have a ton of edges that converge to a single vertex. For baking purposes this can cause major issues when baking.

Without smoothing groups I can't really help much.

Rules of thumb to get you started:

1. Very harsh angled edges should be a smoothing group break and thus a sepearate UV island. You can abuse this rule with a synched workflow.

2. Force triangulation BEFORE you export out of your 3d package.

3. Set your smoothing groups by your UV islands.

There is much more to baking than this, but its a good start.

Gazu · Dec 2013

Hi Quack!
Thank you for your fast answer. All people talking about "Smoothing Groups"
But are Smoothing Groups more then just "Soften Edge" in Maya ? I don´t know any other option then this one. Aahh..yes...and sure the smooth option for highpoly models.

I tought that in the lowpoly only the silhouette is important. Important that the silhouette will not change. Thats all...tought i....so i get this harsh angled edges. Maybe i slice them and scale them apart, so that the angle is no more harsh. Thank God i dont have deleted the "middlepoly"

Gazu

passerby · Dec 2013

something groups are just the method and term 3ds max uses, it accomplishes the exact same thing as the hard and soft edge system of maya.

Gazu · Dec 2013

Ok thanks!

Hm...i exported with Smoothing Groups. The silly thing is that some edges have to be smooth and some have to be hard. And i have tried it Hard and Soft and Mixed...and yeah...sometimes it bake out clean, sometimes so middle and very often "dirty."

Quack! · Dec 2013

Yes, harden/soften edges is the same as smoothing groups. And they are critical for a proper bake.

Here is a good rundown of how shading affects normal baking by Alec Moody: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-6Yu-nTbUU

As for the low poly. Your topology is very important for a proper bake. If your baker is synched to your engine, then you can get cleaner results and abuse this rule a bit. But in general, if you have very nasty shading errors on your low poly with no normal map applied, then there is a high chance that those shading errors will show through to your normal mapped object.

Gazu · Dec 2013

Thats what i mean:
A lot of my meshes have to be mixed with Soft and Harden Edges for a clean bake.
And i never know which have to be hard and which have to be smooth. So i try, and try, and try, and try...

Quack! · Dec 2013

1. Use hard edges at very harsh angles. Abuse this if synched.
2. After you unwrapped, set your hard edges to your uv island boundries, there are scripts that do this automatically.
3. Force triangulate before exporting out of your 3D package
4. Do test bakes.

I recommend creating a high poly cube and test your hard edges/smoothing groups/bakes on that until you grasp the concept. Also, as always, check out EQ's excellent thread: http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=81154

Again these are the basics that will fix most errors, there are some cases, as you will learn through trial and error, that you have to work around.

Gazu · Dec 2013

Thanks Quack!

The old, middlepoly Mesh comes out cleaner.
There are some small Errors. Don´t know why.

And the Blue Marking is an issue in the High Poly. A lot of Edges making the Shape hard, the roundness going hard. So i have to learn to make non hard high polys. Dont know how to avoid that,too. Some people said that i need more geometry O,o A...this pistol grips are silly :P

Sitting the whole day in front of my computer and im just feeling like i was in tschernobyl @_@

Obscura · Dec 2013

I made an example to you about how you can make the edges on your highpoly more rounded. Its just that you put the support loops further from the supported edge. I hope this help.

Gazu · Dec 2013

Hey Obscura!
Thank you for this nice pictures.

Actually the problem is when a mesh contains a lot of edges, that there is no space to move them apart and so i get this hard edges

Gazu · Dec 2013

I think i will move the whole mesh in the trash.
I dont have the nerves to get this bake clean. It dont work and never will works.
I give it up ;(
Go to hell normalmaps

Best solution: start from a clean normalmap and add detail with ndo2 without baking ^^
Only the Smoothnes cant be done with ndo

passerby · Dec 2013

Shouldn't give up, just keep at it, you just need to learn how and when to terminate your edge loops, so they don't clutter up the mesh, and when things should just be a floater or separate object.

Also a combination of baked and ndo2 helps you keep a cleaner HP mesh as well, in the highpoly only model for nice smoothness, and nice edges than use ndo2 to add details to flat surfaces in the normals.

Autarkis · Dec 2013

Like passerby said, don't give up on this. You can only really learn and understand what needs to happen in any given low poly topology to get nice clean textures and bakes if you mess it up and fix it.
Go through the polycount finished pieces, and take a look at guns or any other hard surface and their topology. You've made leaps and bounds since the first posted example in here, and you can only get better if you try to fix what you have.
Yes, it's tough, it makes you want to scream and give up, but hey.. nothing worth it is every that easy to pick up

Gazu · Jan 2014

Folkz...first: A happy new year all!

So, i baked a 8192x8192 Normalmap with the "Middelpoly"

Mesh and it´s okkkk....Not perfect but OK! I baked it because when the resolution is higher, the normal was cleaner...lol...For tests...Now i have a lot of Maps first time in DDO. Like the Cavity, Object Space Normal, Color Map...and so on...I used xNormal to convert some maps...*damn jack daniles rulez xD*

I will texture this weapon, no matter that the normalmap is not perfect!
Soon i will post some screens!

Gazu

Gazu · Jan 2014

Some Details Added in nDo2...not done yet!

Obscura · Jan 2014

A 8192x8192 image is almost 200mb.... and thats just one image. Imagine if you would have a that big normal/spec/gloss/diffuse. Then imagine a game that would use that big maps on everything. There is no any vga that could handle this. 4k must be enough for your weapon, but 2k or even 1k can be too. I would go with 2k and I recommend it to you too.

ZacD · Jan 2014

Also keep in mind a 2k texture has about twice as many pixels in it than a 1080p display. An 8k image has 32 times as many pixels as a 1080p display. Down scale it to 2k, you aren't making a hero asset for the movie Avatar 2. It's fine to bake a 4k image and scale it to 2k. Until everyone (including you) has a 4k display, 2k is going to be more than enough.

Gazu · Jan 2014

I scaled down the 8K to 2K, but the Map look so Blurry and offset, really not useable, anyway...i want to bring it to the end. I think i have learned a lot with this weapon and the next thing i will do is to learn to bake the normal map without any errors on some simple shapes that i will create. Maybe an Eo-Tech, that will i give this weapon then. Here are some Screenshots of the weapon.
Just have to add some detail to the bolts and i will call this finished.
The bolts are done tomorrow.

Thanks Guys!
Gazu

dazzerfong · Jan 2014

Forget about the EOTech for now: fix up your Vector for now.

For starters, material definition. Right now, it looks like someone made a clay model out of it. Look at the following picture:

Notice how most of the plastic has a rough texture to it? Either make a tilable texture out of that pattern, or make your own with the noise generator in Photoshop.

Secondly, you skimped out on the magazine. Look how the floorplate is a separate piece from the housing (don't separate it in the low-poly mesh), and how it barely sticks out. Also worth noting are the round indicators on the rear of the magazine, and the floorplate disconnector (the side thingy near the bottom).

Main problem IMO with modelling firearms, is that there often isn't a lot of detail to draw your attention to. Hence, try to capture everything as well as you could, and avoid skimping out. Check this fellow Polycounter's thread out: could give you a lot of pointers.

Gazu · Jan 2014

Hi dazzerfong,

actually i tought about an ROUGH PLASTIC.
My Main Material in dDo was Rough Plastic.
And yeah i made clouds in black & white and then i used the noisefilter, but maybe the opacity is too low and it´s not really visible.
Is it better to put in the noise in the specular or in the normalmap? Has dDo something similar to noise as a material detail?

Gazu

Gazu · Jan 2014

So i want to call this finished for now...

I Added a Noise Filter for the Rough Plastic to become more realistic.
But maybe the opacity i a bit too low. The Weapon has 4 Materials applied: Rubber, Rough Plastic, Gun Metal and Iron. But i have to say that i have changed a bit the default values of the gloss and spec.
Anyway, here it is:

I Learned a lot on this weapon and i think that my new weapons that i will make will be better and better. But thats because of you guys, Thanks for the advices, help and kritiques!

I know that there are still missing some Details. Anyway this was a good Training for me and for the next weapon i have to model first all what i can see on the references and then start to bake and texture!

AAhhh.. I cant wait to see the result. That´s the reason why im so fast .... ^^

Im happy with the gun

Has anybody "quick work" advices to improve the weapon maybe a bit more?
Gazu

Edit: Just saw that i forget the holes in the Magazine. That will be fixed soon!

Gazu · Jan 2014

Will call this finished:

Bruno Afonseca · Jan 2014

I wouldn't yet... Why is it so dusty? Doesn't seem plausible to me. Take a look at those guns and notice how damage and dirt is applied: http://polygoo.com/an94

Gazu · Jan 2014

Wow, the Weapon Category is ful of nice Weapons. Are they yours?

I tought about a Mix of Colorspray and Dust for the Mission in Afghanistan.
It´s a weapon carried by an Special Forces Soldier wich is a few days out in the terrain to observe maybe a mission important person. And i think the Dust gets the weapon for this scenario more life.

http://soldatenglueck.de/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Bw-KSK-Rundumsicherung-Wueste.jpg

http://www.dw.de/image/0,,16324881_303,00.jpg

http://images.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2010-02/specialforces/specialforces-540x304.jpg

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/507/opmercury2028jy2.jpg/

Bruno Afonseca · Jan 2014

Not mine, this one is mine, not dusty though: http://3dbruno.com/Ak-47

Being dusty is not a problem at all, the problem is the way your weapon collected dust. Dust usually collects on crevices but yours is evenly spread all over, so it doesn't help to sell the idea and messes the material definition a bit.

I would advise you to work on passes, first getting the base materials well defined and then later adding dirt.

Have i a wrong LowPoly Workflow?

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