Anyway, I hope Blender drags ya'll Luddites along kicking and screaming and puts Cessan's keymap as default, like they did with the UI and Bmesh. :poly124: I really think there would be less "I tried Blender a few times, but it is just too alien to learn" posts and it would wind up being more common in Studio settings and the like.
They changed the UI and added BMesh because the software couldn't progress without the changes. The UI was cramped and the old mesh code was 15 years old.
I don't know why people think learning Blender is so hard. I was a bit overwhelmed at first trying to figure it out on my own and I had already been used to 3DS Max. After I found some video tutorials on blender basics, it all fell into place. All it took was someone to explain the way it works, then I just did drills on the tools until I built up my kinesthetic memory.
I really wanted to like Blender when I was shopping around for a 3D Painting app but holy hell, it had me almost punching my screen in frustration.
That is what I mean. People try to integrate it into their pipeline, but it's too difficult to pick-up and use.
Below is a video I made just a couple weeks ago texture painting in Blender as just a demo testing Psy-Fi's GSoC project (I posted it in the low-poly thread so you may have seen it). Many long time Blender users didn't know Blender could do some of the stuff in there. Unfortunately to use Blender for Texture Paint, you have to spend a few days learning Blender first. If you go with Mudbox or whatever, you'll probably be painting comfortably within an hour or so.
I just think it sucks that Blender packs as much power as it does, but it's locked behind something so stupid as a weird keymap. :P
That is what I mean. People try to integrate it into their pipeline, but it's too difficult to pick-up and use.
Below is a video I made just a couple weeks ago texture painting in Blender as just a demo testing Psy-Fi's GSoC project (I posted it in the low-poly thread so you may have seen it). Many long time Blender users didn't know Blender could do some of the stuff in there. Unfortunately to use Blender for Texture Paint, you have to spend a few days learning Blender first. If you go with Mudbox or whatever, you'll probably be painting comfortably within an hour or so.
I just think it sucks that Blender packs as much power as it does, but it's locked behind something so stupid as a weird keymap. :P
I've used Blender's 3d painting for years. Unfortunately to set it up you'd have to assign your faces to map to the texture rather than the material, and I kinda miss the per-face alpha functionality 2.4x and earlier had when making masked stuff, i have to material that instead and preview in textured GLSL now. It's pretty inconsistent.
Blender also has trouble painting along seams (especially mirror seams), even with the bleeding cranked up.
Blender also has trouble painting along seams (especially mirror seams), even with the bleeding cranked up.
There's actually been some progress in fixing the seam and mirror UV issues in the Paint branch recently. It's not fixed yet but is certainly better then before.
I just think it's silly to hold back the default keymap for the benefit of those who know the program through and through. Aren't they the ones who'd know how to change it back without any trouble?
I'm with xrg: conventions help newcomers.
He didn't even mention Maya, Super Happy Cow did, xrg was talking about the experience people already have with their OS and whatever other non-3d software they use.
let's say the new interaction conventions Blender came up with are clear, certifiable improvements: great! But then, it becomes a lot more important that your consistency-record is impeccable, because you're breaking with tradition. If you don't do so in a clean, methodical and thought-out way, you're just making a mess of things.
Andy, you praise g, r and s, but I think those are ridiculous. what's easier than g for uh... move? Oh wait no, Grab, even though in the sidebar the tool's called Translate.
There's a new tool, and its name starts with a g, shit! What now?
hotkeys are all over the keyboard, and have no thought behind them whatsoever.
You can't just build on a base for years on end without doing restructuring, it doesn't work. If every new hotkey is constrained by the rigidity of old conventions, you're setting yourself up for a mess.
Agreed, like functions should be next to each other on the keyboard. There is a reason why max uses q,w,e,r,t for the different transform tools, because you can switch with a finger move not a hand move.
Keyboard mapping is not based on function name, it's based on where the hand is placed and moves over the keys as you work. This means that certain types of 'map' suit particular HAND positions rather than naming conventions.
For example, the following (subject to errors) are the key for the three main functions carried out, "Move", "Scale" and "Rotate". When you place your fingers on all the keys at the same time, what do you notice about the position of your fingers and/or your hand and/or wrist/arm?
In other words, you should be mapping your keys relative to the comfort it affords you whilst working (with common functions in particular) and not necessarily what's a memorable nomenclature... remember we talking about a set of actions that become MUSCLE not brain memory.
I hope this helps clarify the reason behind why Blender in particular appears to use the "wrong" (default) mapping - it's not wrong, its just different .
Blender
Move: G
Scale: S
Rotate: R
3DS Max
Move: W
Scale: R
Rotate: E
Maya
Move: W
Scale: R
Rotate: E
Lightwave
Move: T
Scale: H
Rotate: Y
zBrush
Move: W
Scale: E
Rotate: R
XSi
Move: V
Scale: X
Rotate: C
Note: I do 100% agree that one should be able to change all the keys and their respective mappings to a users requirements, unfortunately this isn't currently the case.
I was about to chime in and say that GSR is more efficient when you're reaching for the axis constraints, but after some fiddling I find that WER for the transforms and ZXC for the axes is much better. It takes fewer hand movements with that setup than the standard GSR configuration. The only problem is that I have no idea how to map the Y axis to the C key (If anybody knows about this, it would be keen to know). Then extrude can go to G and the specials menu can go to S.
You can remap, but as with any none-default changes you'd need to watch for function/key conflicts, so being left-handed shouldn't necessarily be an issue in of itself.
Has anyone tried to import/export keyboard remaps? That might be a (better) way to encourage change through the availability of alternative mappings users can load into Blender.
Has anyone tried to import/export keyboard remaps? That might be a (better) way to encourage change through the availability of alternative mappings users can load into Blender.
Its easy, and done often by those who need to "fix" blender's keymaps. It's been around for awhile actually. I was able to really get into blender due to one of Demohero's maya keymaps, but then that stopped working with newer versions so I had to make my own. It was easily exported so the keymap is backed up for use with any blender build.
The default blender controls are pretty bad though, and im pretty sure even Ton see's a problem with them. For the most part they are the result of many developers just looking for extra key space on the keyboard and make use of available keys. It really is a mess, and seems to have been designed with no intelligent design philosophy in mind.
They really should get rid of that default blender keymap and keep it rather as an option on the side, not as the primary control scheme. It just messes it up for other people and even new users going in which will make it harder for them to adopt more established software packages if the need arises.
Thankfully pie menus is on the horizon (Though it exists as an addon atm) which can help alleviate part of the problem.
To use blender's default controls you really have to be a keyboard contortionist, and I dont think thats good for the user.
Example 1
L - select linked
R - rotate...
X - ...along the X axis
Example 2
L - select linked
shift-ctrl-alt-C - set cursor
P, 1 - split selection to new object
M - move object to layer
While I love that all of this is possible with hotkeys, I think there's far more wisdom in mainly using the left-hand side, with modifier keys.
katsbits, I don't even know what you're saying there. G, R and S are not where the hand rests naturally. They're not too far away, but it's still clearly based on the name of the tool, not the location of the buttons. Why on earth wouldn't they be on the same line?
I find that WER for the transforms and ZXC for the axes is much better. It takes fewer hand movements with that setup than the standard GSR configuration.
Exactly! Mind you, this isn't me saying that'd be the ideal setup. I think someone like Cessen is much more qualified to decide on that, he uses Blender more, and in a broader capacity. I'm very much convinced that location's the most important part of a keymap, and that comes from years of trying all sorts of programs, and heavily customising the ones I use - don't just assume I'm a max user who refuses to change his thinking.
...katsbits, I don't even know what you're saying there. G, R and S are not where the hand rests naturally. They're not too far away, but it's still clearly based on the name of the tool, not the location of the buttons. Why on earth wouldn't they be on the same line?..
The position of keys does not necessarily mean anything with respect to the identifier on the key itself (a point made clear, at least I though, by comparison to other applications) they are positioned relative to the commonality of the functions they perform and the physical action required to use them by the user in conjunction with other functions (keys mapped for other reasons) - the original author/s of Blender found the keys mapped the way they are to be more effective. However, there were/are prescient ergonomic considerations for/in doing so.. just as some gamers prefer "WASD", others prefer "ZXCV"; using that analogy Blender would be the latter and 'wrong' in some gamers eyes.
Just to be clear here, and to reiterate what may have been lost in other posts... I'm not against changing mappings and/or interface design, however, doing so does need to be considered in the proper context; that is 1) modern concepts of UI design (pie-charts being one), and 2) how well these changes work relative to Blender, not other applications.
I understand that it's up to me to prove objectively that it's not better, which I can't, but I really doubt the original developers 'found it to be more effective'. I think they mapped them that way without much thought, and then left it.
Either way, I don't feel I need to prove this one's bad, so let's not waste our efforts in trying to convince eachother of that. I don't want this to get unpleasant or hostile at all, that's not at all what this is about, so I'm sorry I banged on about it so.
I just hope we can agree that, even if Cessen's keymap (or something similar) isn't adopted, we're given more customisation options so we won't have to go into the source or scripts to change things to how we might want them. And I say 'we', but ofcourse customisation's such a personal thing, I doubt many people would rally behind the exact same configuration without their own changes.
G,S,R really only make sense as hotkeys in English. Of course, to be fair, there are other snags assigning keys assuming everyone has Qwerty keyboards too.
Maybe I'll see about putting some zip files of Blender bundled with the Cessan keymap and get some non-Blender users to try it out and see what they think.
I tried it. I think in many ways it's a step in the right direction, but there remain some strange decisions. Like having select all on A, I'd move the important keys one the the left and use ctrl-a for that.
I also find the mode selection to be both a step forward and backwards, the latter in no longer having a one-press way to switch between object and edit mode, which I do miss.
I'll need to give it a proper go sometime though, although I tend to spend more time experimenting with my voidworld setup. If Blender was as moldable as that, I'd certainly spend more time with it!
Yeah, I think that kind of stuff is what would be worth getting other opinions outside Blender users. He barely gets any feedback when he asks for it from Blender users anyway.
Only tough part is I have no idea how to bundle the keymap with the OSX zips, because I don't use Mac, and it has a weird file structure.
He barely gets any feedback when he asks for it from Blender users anyway.
Does he even have an active thread at the BlenderArtists forum (the most active Blender forum afaik)? Google only comes up with a thread thats last activity was a year ago.
As MightyPea said, he was just doing what he wanted in seclusion and then posting on the functionality board mailing list for feedback. I dug up his post about it.
Posting anything UI or keymap related on BA usually just gets results like this XKCD comic:
Anyone get hardlocked video card failure freezes with Radeon HD5/6? It doesn't matter how complex the model is - it happened to me while I was uvmapping a lowpoly model on a 128x64 texture.
Thought I'd share this in here - an unexpected result of using Duplifaces:
I used duplifaces on an Icosphere to get the nice distribution of nibs, but then I wanted to see if the bevel modifier passed its geometry along to the duplifaces (somemodifiers don't actually pass their modified geometry up the chain), which uh... it did
Stromberg: turn on 'automatically merge vertices' and vertex snap. Hold ctrl to turn snap on temporarily and move to another vertex.
It's not a tool, but in my experience it works very similarly, and I almost never use alt-m to merge.
edit: don't send me naked pictures.
Oh, just checked, it's called 'Automerge Editing' in the Mesh menu, but 'Automatically merge vertices moved to the same location' on the button they added in a recent version. The button looks like two diagonal arrows touching eachother.
Thanks for the tip, definitely helps
I still hope for a tool though, or an option to have vertex snap to only the active object, when retoping it snaps to any vertex visible.
Edit: Tried it now, works great, nice not having to run remove duplicate vertices all the time
I've been using the Blender Experimental 2012 keymapping and I'm really loving it, so far my only problem has been that vertex painting doesn't seem to work with it. I just end up switching back to the blender defaults while I'm doing vertex coloring, then switch back again :P Anyone else having issues like that?
huh, just tried it again and now it works. Guess I'll just chalk that up to first-run strangeness.
Did you have more 3+ vertices selected before? The "cut through connect" only works with two vertices. Otherwise it tries to connect pairs, same as original behavior.
I just ran into this feature video that is being worked on by a student for google summer of code and it blew me out of the water - thought I might share: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTnx9-VVF44"]Blender Gsoc 2013 Sketch Mesh using Laplacian Surface Editing - YouTube[/ame]
Looks genuinely great. I'd be curious to see someone post a review of it from a games creation viewpoint - the modelling looks fantastic but given the rapid changes I'm a little lost as to how well it, say, bakes/exports/textures etc.
Replies
They changed the UI and added BMesh because the software couldn't progress without the changes. The UI was cramped and the old mesh code was 15 years old.
That is what I mean. People try to integrate it into their pipeline, but it's too difficult to pick-up and use.
Below is a video I made just a couple weeks ago texture painting in Blender as just a demo testing Psy-Fi's GSoC project (I posted it in the low-poly thread so you may have seen it). Many long time Blender users didn't know Blender could do some of the stuff in there. Unfortunately to use Blender for Texture Paint, you have to spend a few days learning Blender first. If you go with Mudbox or whatever, you'll probably be painting comfortably within an hour or so.
I just think it sucks that Blender packs as much power as it does, but it's locked behind something so stupid as a weird keymap. :P
[ame="
Edit: May as well add the seamless one too:
[ame="
Blender also has trouble painting along seams (especially mirror seams), even with the bleeding cranked up.
There's actually been some progress in fixing the seam and mirror UV issues in the Paint branch recently. It's not fixed yet but is certainly better then before.
I'm with xrg: conventions help newcomers.
He didn't even mention Maya, Super Happy Cow did, xrg was talking about the experience people already have with their OS and whatever other non-3d software they use.
let's say the new interaction conventions Blender came up with are clear, certifiable improvements: great! But then, it becomes a lot more important that your consistency-record is impeccable, because you're breaking with tradition. If you don't do so in a clean, methodical and thought-out way, you're just making a mess of things.
Andy, you praise g, r and s, but I think those are ridiculous. what's easier than g for uh... move? Oh wait no, Grab, even though in the sidebar the tool's called Translate.
There's a new tool, and its name starts with a g, shit! What now?
hotkeys are all over the keyboard, and have no thought behind them whatsoever.
You can't just build on a base for years on end without doing restructuring, it doesn't work. If every new hotkey is constrained by the rigidity of old conventions, you're setting yourself up for a mess.
For example, the following (subject to errors) are the key for the three main functions carried out, "Move", "Scale" and "Rotate". When you place your fingers on all the keys at the same time, what do you notice about the position of your fingers and/or your hand and/or wrist/arm?
In other words, you should be mapping your keys relative to the comfort it affords you whilst working (with common functions in particular) and not necessarily what's a memorable nomenclature... remember we talking about a set of actions that become MUSCLE not brain memory.
I hope this helps clarify the reason behind why Blender in particular appears to use the "wrong" (default) mapping - it's not wrong, its just different
Blender
Move: G
Scale: S
Rotate: R
3DS Max
Move: W
Scale: R
Rotate: E
Maya
Move: W
Scale: R
Rotate: E
Lightwave
Move: T
Scale: H
Rotate: Y
zBrush
Move: W
Scale: E
Rotate: R
XSi
Move: V
Scale: X
Rotate: C
Note: I do 100% agree that one should be able to change all the keys and their respective mappings to a users requirements, unfortunately this isn't currently the case.
Has anyone tried to import/export keyboard remaps? That might be a (better) way to encourage change through the availability of alternative mappings users can load into Blender.
Its easy, and done often by those who need to "fix" blender's keymaps. It's been around for awhile actually. I was able to really get into blender due to one of Demohero's maya keymaps, but then that stopped working with newer versions so I had to make my own. It was easily exported so the keymap is backed up for use with any blender build.
The default blender controls are pretty bad though, and im pretty sure even Ton see's a problem with them. For the most part they are the result of many developers just looking for extra key space on the keyboard and make use of available keys. It really is a mess, and seems to have been designed with no intelligent design philosophy in mind.
They really should get rid of that default blender keymap and keep it rather as an option on the side, not as the primary control scheme. It just messes it up for other people and even new users going in which will make it harder for them to adopt more established software packages if the need arises.
Thankfully pie menus is on the horizon (Though it exists as an addon atm) which can help alleviate part of the problem.
To use blender's default controls you really have to be a keyboard contortionist, and I dont think thats good for the user.
nah.. its not that bad
modeling wise i am pretty happy with it
Example 1
L - select linked
R - rotate...
X - ...along the X axis
Example 2
L - select linked
shift-ctrl-alt-C - set cursor
P, 1 - split selection to new object
M - move object to layer
While I love that all of this is possible with hotkeys, I think there's far more wisdom in mainly using the left-hand side, with modifier keys.
katsbits, I don't even know what you're saying there. G, R and S are not where the hand rests naturally. They're not too far away, but it's still clearly based on the name of the tool, not the location of the buttons. Why on earth wouldn't they be on the same line?
Exactly! Mind you, this isn't me saying that'd be the ideal setup. I think someone like Cessen is much more qualified to decide on that, he uses Blender more, and in a broader capacity. I'm very much convinced that location's the most important part of a keymap, and that comes from years of trying all sorts of programs, and heavily customising the ones I use - don't just assume I'm a max user who refuses to change his thinking.
Just to be clear here, and to reiterate what may have been lost in other posts... I'm not against changing mappings and/or interface design, however, doing so does need to be considered in the proper context; that is 1) modern concepts of UI design (pie-charts being one), and 2) how well these changes work relative to Blender, not other applications.
Either way, I don't feel I need to prove this one's bad, so let's not waste our efforts in trying to convince eachother of that. I don't want this to get unpleasant or hostile at all, that's not at all what this is about, so I'm sorry I banged on about it so.
I just hope we can agree that, even if Cessen's keymap (or something similar) isn't adopted, we're given more customisation options so we won't have to go into the source or scripts to change things to how we might want them. And I say 'we', but ofcourse customisation's such a personal thing, I doubt many people would rally behind the exact same configuration without their own changes.
Maybe I'll see about putting some zip files of Blender bundled with the Cessan keymap and get some non-Blender users to try it out and see what they think.
I also find the mode selection to be both a step forward and backwards, the latter in no longer having a one-press way to switch between object and edit mode, which I do miss.
I'll need to give it a proper go sometime though, although I tend to spend more time experimenting with my voidworld setup. If Blender was as moldable as that, I'd certainly spend more time with it!
Only tough part is I have no idea how to bundle the keymap with the OSX zips, because I don't use Mac, and it has a weird file structure.
http://www.blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?291881-Exporting-OBJ-and-FBX-physically-break-edges-no-love-for-the-game-making-community
Does he even have an active thread at the BlenderArtists forum (the most active Blender forum afaik)? Google only comes up with a thread thats last activity was a year ago.
Posting anything UI or keymap related on BA usually just gets results like this XKCD comic:
I used duplifaces on an Icosphere to get the nice distribution of nibs, but then I wanted to see if the bevel modifier passed its geometry along to the duplifaces (somemodifiers don't actually pass their modified geometry up the chain), which uh... it did
One thing I really miss in blender is a visual target weld, I would send someone naked pictures of me for making that
It's not a tool, but in my experience it works very similarly, and I almost never use alt-m to merge.
edit: don't send me naked pictures.
Oh, just checked, it's called 'Automerge Editing' in the Mesh menu, but 'Automatically merge vertices moved to the same location' on the button they added in a recent version. The button looks like two diagonal arrows touching eachother.
Thanks for the tip, definitely helps
I still hope for a tool though, or an option to have vertex snap to only the active object, when retoping it snaps to any vertex visible.
Edit: Tried it now, works great, nice not having to run remove duplicate vertices all the time
A small little tool that will make capping cylinders and all sorts of other stuff way easier!
i like all the "latest" modeling stuff, like vertex slide, or the quick face creation
it makes everything quick and easy
This is one of my new favorite tools!
Blender 2.68
Not a whole lot new this release, but the new modeling tools are certainly welcome.
Notes:
http://www.blender.org/development/release-logs/blender-268/
Saw they changed some stuff for vertex connect too, but just tried it and it's still unable to perform multiple connections over a single face
Did you have more 3+ vertices selected before? The "cut through connect" only works with two vertices. Otherwise it tries to connect pairs, same as original behavior.
Coming soon to a Blender near you.
http://youtu.be/b-Hf-8UEmDI
https://sketchfab.com/show/qOoeSRwJxY9f51be4XwOMBhsTQr
that modo interface looks really awesome. Im going to have to try that out,