But in a motivation thread dealing with students finding it difficult to improove, self help etc, All I would add is that this not be interpreted as 'Dont worry about your folio - just make friends and you can get there too'.
They are the absolute last thing needed on an art team, yet I'm sad to report they do sometimes make it:
Crap artist with tonnes of friends in all the right places.
I bet all the industry peeps here know of at least one or 2 of those in their careers. I sure as hell do - the worst is when they are injected in because they are family or friends of the family. Makes for a very uncomfortable situation.
I totally agree with you, and having friends doesn't make up for not practicing, however I see that every time polycount has a motivation thread there are theese arch types of post that boils down to:
- Drop your social life and work your ass off on a portfolio
- You are not artist material if you are not motivated
and I can't help feeling a bit saddened about the fact that if you(like me) like to hang out with friends, drink beers, watch movies and such, are not artist material. I can't see the reason for why you should be miserable in order to be an artist.
Also one point I think many people miss when talking in these threads(I'm gonna direct this to JacqueChoi's posts since they are in stark contrast to what I'm about to say, so it shouldn't be taken as offensive in any way.) is that people work, learn and get motivated differently. If you think a brute force approach to getting a better artist and motivation is the one and only answer to all problems, then I believe you are dead wrong. One of my good friends and former colleague told about some seminars he went to about motivation and in our field I would say theres 2 main types of personalities: The end-result and the process. The end-result type(like I am) strive for making the best end result, and if succeeded can and will boost my motivation beyond anything else, and the process type is people who enjoy the entire process a project goes through then the end result that they create.
All that being said, it's important as an artist, or nearly any field, to have self-discipline, so when your motivation fails, you are able to brute force until your motivation comes back.
But in a motivation thread dealing with students finding it difficult to improove, self help etc, All I would add is that this not be interpreted as 'Dont worry about your folio - just make friends and you can get there too'.
They are the absolute last thing needed on an art team, yet I'm sad to report they do sometimes make it:
Crap artist with tonnes of friends in all the right places.
I bet all the industry peeps here know of at least one or 2 of those in their careers. I sure as hell do - the worst is when they are injected in because they are family or friends of the family. Makes for a very uncomfortable situation.
In addition to what Hazardous has said, this is an aspect much more related to luck. For every hour of practice you put in, you can expect a concrete return of proficiency increase. Vs you could potentially go to every IGDA mixer in your area, and not make that magic moment happen where you swap awesome golf stories with the local game development owner. I totally agree that as part of a well rounded applicant one should work on their social network as well at the same time, but getting that portfolio up to snuff should be priority 1.
and I can't help feeling a bit saddened about the fact that if you(like me) like to hang out with friends, drink beers, watch movies and such, are not artist material. I can't see the reason for why you should be miserable in order to be an artist.
I am with you on this as well, but most skill based careers are gonna take some heavy practice, and at some point, when you want to really level up your game, it will take some pretty hardcore investment of time, probably to the detriment of other areas of life. In my opinion, the beginning stages (university age for most, though I know some people switch careers later in life) is where you prioritize making art the most. Don´t hole up and ignore the world, but this would be a great time to not be paying an MMO subscription, getting high every night, or hitting the bars thurs-sat night. Once that initial level of quality is reached, and a job can be attained, the balance can tip back over to something more reasonable and a regular social life or even a wasteful one can be prioritized if that is what you are into.
I will stop you for a moment there and while I think it's a beautiful idea that we are only judged by our portfolios, that is so far from the real world. When applying for any job in nearly any field, it almost as important to know people. When I first went out looking for intern ships in the arch viz industry I often met people with what would generally be accepted as a worse portfolio then my own, however, they had their social aspect in check and actually mingled with other people, and in the the end met their current bosses through parties and events.
So I think it's almost just as important to create a network of people as it is sitting in your room all day practicing art. Don't underestimate the power of a good network can have.
It's true, but that said, I got my current job purely via my folio. Stuck it up here on Polycount and got a response from the lead artist at the time here asking if I'd be interested in applying. Never met or spoken to any of them before that point.
I think Ben's point about luck is true. The more work you do, the more luck you'll find you have. And you'll get better at the same time.
I would not call it luck as you have control about it in some way. I always though you create your own possibilities/luck. So no more standing still and always taking steps to expand your possibilities
I would not call it luck as you have control about it in some way. I always though you create your own possibilities/luck. So no more standing still and always taking steps to expand your possibilities
Well, "luck"... when you hear about folk who got into the industry via luck or good fortune, it is luck, technically.
But my point is that there's generally more to it than that - lots and lots of hard work and time and practice that has, in some way, engineered or assisted these situations where fortuitous opportunities and situations arise. And the more work that goes in, the more these things occur.
Partly down to attitude, partly down to having a solid body of work, partly down to knowing (or being known to) other people - but all down to that person having done the hard work required.
My quick story is that I was working for another game company and I did an Unreal Tournament map on the side, for fun, because I was interested and motivated. Cliff saw that map, contacted me, and a week later that turned into a job offer at Epic (13 years ago, yeesh).
I didn't make the map in the hopes of that happening. I made it because I wanted to.
Being involved, being interested, and being motivated create opportunities. They just do!
Once that initial level of quality is reached, and a job can be attained, the balance can tip back over to something more reasonable and a regular social life or even a wasteful one can be prioritized if that is what you are into.
This is where I'd say that trust comes into it - as in trust in the advice, the experience. I've been ruminating on this thread since Haz's speech and noticed that I've been showing an uncanny resistance to the ideology, and it's clear to me that it's that fear of losing one passion for another.
Then I remembered, as through the years I've heard this kind of advice by many of the people I respect the most in life and when voicing that fear, they always said the same thing:
"Well I told you what I did, and you know what you need to do. The future can be scary but if you follow my advice, it'll work out. Trust me."
Well, "luck"... when you hear about folk who got into the industry via luck or good fortune, it is luck, technically.
But my point is that there's generally more to it than that - lots and lots of hard work and time and practice that has, in some way, engineered or assisted these situations where fortuitous opportunities and situations arise. And the more work that goes in, the more these things occur.
Partly down to attitude, partly down to having a solid body of work, partly down to knowing (or being known to) other people - but all down to that person having done the hard work required.
Yes exactly. Attitude!!!
I remember being hired by Codemasters because mainly of my attitude.
Too much people forget to work on their attitude while focussing everything on their hard skills.
I'm a little late to the party hopefully it hasn't turned into a feeding frenzy where everyone bags on the new kid, like the first page suggests... luv ya polycunts.
This might seem insulting but, it fits, at least for me. Motivation & inspiration to artists, is the feather to Dumbo.
At first, you really don't know how or why it works but you know that it works. You hold that feather really tight because you believe it is the only way you can fly. If you dropped it, you would risk everything to get it back, you would stick your hand in a blender to rescue it.
Later you find that to be, total bullshit and let it go.
If it makes you feel better to think of in less Disney-esk terms think of it as superstition to a sports star. I know after a few rounds of old Disney stuff, I have to watch fight club to get my balls to drop again, but the old classics do touch on a lot of valuable lessons, and not just for animators but for life in general.
Bambi, single mom raising her only child. Stranger breaks into their house, shoots the kids mom, burns their house down... hardcore.
Pinocchio, deals with being a self entitle twat monster. HINT: It turns you into a jackass.
Cinderella, forced to be a slave, sings instead of complains.
Sleeping Beauty, lived in a dump, with annoying roommates, before she got her castle.
Alice in Wonderland, Marinate in your dreams, it will take you places.
Snow White, Act out of jealousy and it will be your undoing.
Princess and the Frog, its not enough to just wish, you need to work hard. Also the easy way will naturally fuck you over and take longer. Choose the hard way, its easier and faster.
But I'm getting off track...
It's not the chicken feet in the locker room, or the funny dance and face paint that got them where they are, its all of the hard work that they put in. The training, the sacrifice and the dogged determination to push through the shit never knowing if it will pay off.
If you need the face paint, the funny dance and the chicken feet to get you moving in the right direction, THEN USE IT! I'm just saying that at some point, you will realize you don't need it, and if you lose that crap, don't waste your time trying to get it back, keep moving forward.
There is one challenge that you will never be able to overcome and that's death. Everything else can be wiped, beaten, overcome and worked around.
The question you ask yourself when you hit a rough spot is, "is this going to end me?" if not you can get up and kick its ass. You might not succeed on the first attempt, in fact people rarely do, but as long as you are still breathing you should never take accept defeat, never.
I think I know what you're looking for? The one thing that kicks all the lights on and gets everything flowing again. The one thing that restores that zen feeling and work magically finishes itself. Yea that happens every once in a while but don't relay on it because you'll never get anything done.
Inspiration doesn't pay the bills. Inspiration doesn't get projects finished. Inspiration is nice when its there but not necessary to see something through. What is necessary is a relentless commitment to finish the project to the quality standards you know are expected.
What is a good activity to do while waiting for inspiration to strike again?
Practice or just do work, even small tasks that don't require inspiration.
Find some small way to succeed at something. If inspiration can't be the gas in your tank let the sense of accomplishment be the fire in your belly.
"I'm going to unwrap this object by noon" "Done, I win!"
"I'm going to research old generators and make one by Friday" "Done I win!"
"I'm going to sculpt all of the boring details first so they aren't hanging over my head killing my inspiration" "Done I win!"
I think its a bit unrealistic to think that artists can only work when inspired, inspiration might be there in spurts
Especially if you're going to do this professionally you need to find a way to get work done and not be emotionally wed to whatever it is you're doing. Your boss isn't going to take the excuse "well I'm waiting for inspiration before I start working again". Those guys get let cut loose pretty quick.
If your car is stalled and you're trying to get it rolling again do you sit on your rear and wait for it to magically restart or do you give it a shove and try to push start it? At some point the engine is going to kick on and make your job a lot easier but until then muscle through it and get stuff done. Often for me the act of just doing something is the most powerful way to spark inspiration. But then I'm a details guy I love looking up odd bits of machinery or giving some physical purpose to an object or "if this character does this, they will need to carry this and how is it they can carry this item". Just digging in gets things flowing. Just turning on the computer and then walking away demoralized just makes the problem worse, at least for me.
If you can't work with inspiration then at least work on refining your work ethic and start to build that muscle through attitude that really comes in handy. Instead of filling the time between strikes of inspiration with sadness and despair, fill it with something useful and who knows maybe by doing that you can learn to trigger it.
TLDR: There is a wimpy nerdy turtle neck wearing artist inside you that needs a good ass kicking. He needs to be put to work, preferably some hard labor, go! Kick his ass, make him your bitch and never let him whine again.
I just wanted to add this lastly- some folks might find this helpful. I was just going through some FengZhu videos and I came across this- he's a well known illustrator but I think in general he is talking about for what all us are striving to be an artist in this industry.
I will stop you for a moment there and while I think it's a beautiful idea that we are only judged by our portfolios, that is so far from the real world. When applying for any job in nearly any field, it almost as important to know people. When I first went out looking for intern ships in the arch viz industry I often met people with what would generally be accepted as a worse portfolio then my own, however, they had their social aspect in check and actually mingled with other people, and in the the end met their current bosses through parties and events.
So I think it's almost just as important to create a network of people as it is sitting in your room all day practicing art. Don't underestimate the power of a good network can have.
Oh, Absolutely! Networking is HUGE to getting a job... however, you still need the skills first (because if you don't have them you'll probably be out of a job fast networking or not, haha). VERY valid point and one that should not be glossed over by any means, thanks for pointing this out!
What a great post Haz. I think a lot of people will benefit from that.
There was a post by Del a long time ago that was similar, but diagrams. I found it and know that helped a lot of other people. Heres the post from this thread :
Over the last couple weeks? Maybe even months? There's been a few threads about the subject of finding it hard to be motivated about 3D. I know I used to hit brick walls when i was starting so I'll quickly touch on my experience of how I tackled the mountain of WIPs that never got finished because they sucked too much. Maybe it'll help someone out.
Diagrams for extra understanding:
For me personally it was soooo tempting to just start a newer BETTER model whenever I got bored of the one i was working on. Especially because it always looked wayyyyyy better in my head than it came out. Try not to keep restarting things all the time.
Instead think of the process more like:
• Starting a model
• Work your ass off on it
• Get fucking tired of it -_____-
• CONTINUE ANYWAY
• Learn new shit
• Finish That Bitch and post on POLYCOUNT!!!!!
Believe me if you keep starting over and over and never finishing anything you'll only create to a 10gb "WIP" folder, and an empty "Finished" folder. Pulling through and completing stuff was always where my real leveling up happened; and having a new complete model gets you happier than starting a fresh one!
I honestly don't think artists talk about the grit stage enough. The stage where your no longer super excited but you gotta keep your eye on the end goal. It's okay if it sucks. You're supposed to suck when you start out! Everybody sucks at first, but the level ups to free us from Suckville will come once we kill off lots of little critters. After that we can get to the Boss stages.
Also. I learned to not post online at every stage of my WIP. Otherwise I find myself hitting refresh, more than I'm snapping verts. Just post when you need crit, or there's a significant change. Otherwise your just chasing praise which is a bad habit. Feedback is good, meaningless praise is evil.
DISCLAIMER: This is just my perspective. This is how I see things, because this is what worked for me. Other people might have found special game art enhancing serum, or have a "Make My Shit Awesome" button.
While I do agree with a lot of what Hazardous said, I also disagree to an extent. He comes across as an extremist every time he posts on one of these threads, and I absolutely do NOT mean that as a bad thing. I just dont think what works for him will work for most.
Haz, you also advocate putting aside everything else in your life for art, and absolutely that can work for some. It certainly worked for you, I believe you are one of the best artists around. But, I am a strong believer in a balanced life. Other people have already stated that networking is key, so you should go out to events and what not. But I also think that friends and family are also important. All work and no play can be bad for your mental health.
You say to stop playing games, stop hanging out with friends, stop watching movies. Basically, stop anything that isn't art. While I don't agree that you should stop completely, I think the underlying message isn't that you need to stop everything, but rather you just need to put the time in to become better. How much time will depend on the person, and certainly some can dedicate more than others. But, I think if you really want to become better, you just need to work on it as often as you can. Even if that's just 20 minutes a day, or an hour a day. Yes, it will take longer than how Hazardous does it, but I think you can still become a great artist and live a balanced life. The key really is just BALANCE.
I also think that you need to ask yourself some serious questions about your time, and the excuses you use of why you aren't or "can't" get any work done. I know I use to say "I`m too busy". Too busy to take online classes. Too busy to animate. Too busy, too busy.... I feel that's something a lot of people say. But, are you really too busy, or too lazy? My "too busy" was me working 9-5, monday to friday, see my g/f 3 - 4 times a week, and watching movies or playing games the rest of the time. I decided to bite the bullet and just take iAnimate. It became so obvious that I wasn't busy, I was lazy. I stopped playing as many games. Stopped watching as many movies, and I actually started animating. Even at the 10-20 hours a week that I was able to get in, I improved so much in just a few months. Some of that was from what I was being taught. But a lot of it was just the extra practice. I still played games. I still watched movies. I still went out with my g/f and my friends. But, instead of throwing on a movie or game right after work when I wasn't going out, I would animate for a few hours first. I would get home and dedicate the next 2 hours to animating, then I would allow myself to play games. But here's the thing. Just doing that, a lot of the time I would get wrapped up in it all and just keep working cause I was doing well. Weekends, I hardly touched a computer. I still don't. But weekdays, I animate way more now than I use to, even if its only 10 hours a week outside of work, it's more than I use to do when I was "too busy".
Evaluate your time and figure out how much you can dedicate to art. If you think you don't have the time then ask yourself, how much time do you spend watching movies, playing games, hanging with friends, or probably the biggest offender, surfing forums! Instead of coming to polycount to read about art, use that time to actually DO art. Even if its 20 minutes a day, it's better than nothing. There's no easy button for becoming a great artist, but there are certainly different routes to take. Each one requires time put in though. Are you willing to do that?
We would have 60 of these threads a day if 'only the pros' (feel dirty just typing that) felt this way about it. Vast majority of people don't make these kinds of threads. They just get down to it anyway. Students, hobbyists, aspiring game artists, everybody. The start of the project is always super exciting and then slowly becomes 'work'. Happens to everyone. :thumbup:
While I do agree with a lot of what Hazardous said, I also disagree to an extent.
I agree for the most part and I don't think you are actually disagreeing with Haz and I don't think Haz is wrong in saying that some people need to kick their own ass and focus.
You say to stop playing games, stop hanging out with friends, stop watching movies. Basically, stop anything that isn't art. While I don't agree that you should stop completely, I think the underlying message isn't that you need to stop everything, but rather you just need to put the time in to become better.
I think it really depends on the person and how fast they want to improve and how far they have to go to get there as to what steps they should take and how quickly.
Some people get distracted easily and really need to block out all distractions and just focus.
Some people have trouble structuring their own learning path and can't set or stick to self imposed deadlines.
Some people have trouble seeing what they need to work on to improve or building projects that would strengthen those skills.
Evaluate your time and figure out how much you can dedicate to art.
I've moved back and forth between the learning modes as I've needed them as I'm sure other people have. There was a time that I had a lot of free time and focused on learning. but now I'm one of those people who struggles to find large blocks of time to delicate to progressing. But I structure my day in a way that it gives me some time. It's a nice balance and so far having a job and being able to pay my bills means I'm happy with my slower track of learning.
If I was out of work I would be focused solely on that task and barely coming up for air. I've done it in the past and I wouldn't hesitate to do it again, but being where I'm at I can afford to balance things out a bit and take it slower. It keeps me from burning out and keeps my creativity flowing.
Feng Zhu and a few other concept artists say the same thing as Haz. Put life aside and work. You can have fun after you're successful.
You are going to be a very lonely successful person. The only person who said cast life aside was Mr. Burns when he said, "I'll keep it short and sweet. Family. Religion. Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business. When opportunity knocks, you don't want to be driving to a maternity hospital or sitting in some phony-baloney church. Or synagogue."
You have to have balance. Going to extremes, either side of lazy or dedicated isn't good. If it meant I had to give up my family to be a great artist, well, I'm happy just being a really good artist then.
Even Feng Zhu said in an interview that he likes to fly small personal planes in his free time. You don't get your pilot's license over night. You have to have an outlet and have some free time to keep yourself fresh and avoid burn out. If all you do is art, you'll burn out quickly.
You have to have balance. Going to extremes, either side of lazy or dedicated isn't good. If it meant I had to give up my family to be a great artist, well, I'm happy just being a really good artist then.
Bambi, single mom raising her only child. Stranger breaks into their house, shoots the kids mom, burns their house down... hardcore.
Pinocchio, deals with being a self entitle twat monster. HINT: It turns you into a jackass.
Cinderella, forced to be a slave, sings instead of complains.
Sleeping Beauty, lived in a dump, with annoying roommates, before she got her castle.
Alice in Wonderland, Marinate in your dreams, it will take you places.
Snow White, Act out of jealousy and it will be your undoing.
Princess and the Frog, its not enough to just wish, you need to work hard. Also the easy way will naturally fuck you over and take longer. Choose the hard way, its easier and faster.
Ariel the Little Mermaid, Fishing for compliments will get you nowhere. Tarzan, Monkeying around will get you nowhere. Lady and the Tramp, Will probably end up as the latter if a job isn't obtained.
You are going to be a very lonely successful person. The only person who said cast life aside was Mr. Burns when he said, "I'll keep it short and sweet. Family. Religion. Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business. When opportunity knocks, you don't want to be driving to a maternity hospital or sitting in some phony-baloney church. Or synagogue."
You have to have balance. Going to extremes, either side of lazy or dedicated isn't good. If it meant I had to give up my family to be a great artist, well, I'm happy just being a really good artist then.
Even Feng Zhu said in an interview that he likes to fly small personal planes in his free time. You don't get your pilot's license over night. You have to have an outlet and have some free time to keep yourself fresh and avoid burn out. If all you do is art, you'll burn out quickly.
Yeah, it's the advice nobody wants to hear. I know.
People want to hear that they can go out with friends, and play games and watch movies and put in an hour or two a day doing art and they'll be successful in the end. It's all about balance.
I think reality tells a different story.
Turn the TV off, tell your friends you'll see them some other night, and close the browser. Get to work.
Well, yes and no. It takes a hell of a lot of time and dedication to be employable, but I wouldn't say you need to kill your social life or down time completely - everyone needs an outlet. Of course if you're only putting in an hour of work a day and relaxing the rest then you have to sort out your priorities, but you can bust your ass and still have time for relaxing or going out as long as you manage your time efficiently.
It also depends on how quickly you want to become employable. A year? 5 years? 10? This industry represents one of the fastest sets of moving goal posts ... Get up to speed with current techniques too slowly and, oh hey, now there's a whole new set of stuff to learn.
Traditional art skills don't change, of course, but that's only part of what it takes to get a job.
Yeah, it's the advice nobody wants to hear. I know.
People want to hear that they can go out with friends, and play games and watch movies and put in an hour or two a day doing art and they'll be successful in the end. It's all about balance.
I think reality tells a different story.
Turn the TV off, tell your friends you'll see them some other night, and close the browser. Get to work.
You might need to do that for a while at first but you won't be doing that forever. I agree that people need to understand when its time to kick it in gear and get the lead out but at least for me I need outside activities to recharge my creative batteries. I can pull so much reference from real life and it helps to not be limited to only looking at copies of copies, like you get when you pull referance from game art. Why copy someones interpetation of something when you could pull actual reference and create your own interpretation. Sure it helps to see how someone else might tackle something or approach it style-wise but don't limit yourself to that.
My path is a little different than Haz but it has some of the same elements.
I had another job outside the industry doing "graphic design" at the time there really wasn't any game art courses around, so it was a hobby along with playing games. I was slowly learning and growing my skill-set. But when I decided to make a career switch I went balls to the wall for about about a year. I poured every waking second into learning and out of that, I landed some low paying offers, I buckled down even harder and ended up getting a job that could actually replace my old one. From there I slowed down a bit in my outside of work practice but I was working and learning full time. I slowed down, I bought a house, got married, had a kid and I'm still learning but I don't think I could keep that pace up for 40+ years. At some point I had to strike a balance.
But I do agree, realize when you need to buckle down and crank away and do it.
You might need to do that for a while at first but you won't be doing that forever.
Absolutely! It's not forever. But you do have to do it for awhile (probably measured in years) to have any hope of getting the job you want.
I mean, please don't misunderstand that I'm saying it's a lifestyle and that's what you'll be doing for the rest of your life. However, I do believe it's necessary to get that first job. Once you have that job, you can ease off a little as long as you keep progressing and keep pace with the industry.
I have a very healthy life outside of work now, but it wasn't always this way. Not even close.
Yeah, it's the advice nobody wants to hear. I know.
People want to hear that they can go out with friends, and play games and watch movies and put in an hour or two a day doing art and they'll be successful in the end. It's all about balance.
I think reality tells a different story.
Turn the TV off, tell your friends you'll see them some other night, and close the browser. Get to work.
It's not that I don't want to hear it, it's just poor advice to tell someone to give up everything until you've become successful. How do I know? Let's just say I'm probably a wee bit older than you and I've been working full time in architecture for the last 10 years. So I've hit a certain level of success all while having friends, found a great girl, married her, had a wonderful son, traveled the world, and still found time to play a few games in between. Yet, I'm still constantly learning new things and ways about the industry. Shit, it took me 7 years to become a fully licensed architect as it's a pain in the ass process here in the US. Yet, still managed time to carve out a nice little social life.
Am I 100% dedicated to my job and my family gets the scraps? Hell no. Am I so dedicated to my family that I literally put in an 8-5 job and don't work one second later? Hell no. It's all about the balance son. I focused when I need to and recharged when I needed to. Yeah we have people in the office that architecture themselves to death and they are generally miserable human beings that live to work rather than work to live.
The idea that you have to crunch all the time, give up everything, and just art yourself to death is what leads to burnout. Burnout leads to lack of motivation. Lack of motivation leads to depression and it has come full circle. This is even true when you are first learning. You need to dedicate yourself harder than ever for sure. But you also have to rest and relax. Each person has different balances. Some can crunch for weeks on end before they need a recharge. Some it's shorter time spans. Each of us knows our limit before we burn out, it's best to listen to our minds and bodies and not go over the limit.
I wasn't under the impression that anyone was saying you should call all of your friends and say "Hey sorry we can't be friends anymore I need to do arts 24/7," followed by breaking up with your girlfriend. (You just need to cut back and make sure your girlfriend understands there might be times when she has to remind you to eat.)
I think folks are just saying that you can't sit there and fuck around all day and then wonder why your portfolio is still empty. If you haven't done art lately and your buddies call you up to get some drinks, you have a choice to make - what's it going to be?
Sacrifice has to come from somewhere. If you're sacrificing your art for your enjoyment, don't expect to do a whole lot of improving. If you're sacrificing more of your "fun" stuff for art, well, expect to do more improving. Sure, it's also possible to sacrifice too much and work yourself to death, I don't think there's anything wrong with taking a day off to ease your mind and help you recharge. A good game, friends, etc.
But you have to ask yourself - is art your routine, are you taking a day off of art to have fun? Or do you more often need to take a day off of "fun" to do art? Let's face it, for a lot of people having issues, it's the latter.
I wasn't under the impression that anyone was saying you should call all of your friends and say "Hey sorry we can't be friends anymore I need to do arts 24/7," followed by breaking up with your girlfriend. (You just need to cut back and make sure your girlfriend understands there might be times when she has to remind you to eat.)
I think folks are just saying that you can't sit there and fuck around all day and then wonder why your portfolio is still empty. If you haven't done art lately and your buddies call you up to get some drinks, you have a choice to make - what's it going to be?
Sacrifice has to come from somewhere. If you're sacrificing your art for your enjoyment, don't expect to do a whole lot of improving. If you're sacrificing more of your "fun" stuff for art, well, expect to do more improving. Sure, it's also possible to sacrifice too much and work yourself to death, I don't think there's anything wrong with taking a day off to ease your mind and help you recharge. A good game, friends, etc.
But you have to ask yourself - is art your routine, are you taking a day off of art to have fun? Or do you more often need to take a day off of "fun" to do art? Let's face it, for a lot of people having issues, it's the latter.
Yeah, I think this is what people are missing here. I distinctly remember that Hazardous was speaking to students.
But of course, what happens when you get that first job and it's not with Epic or Naughty Dog, etc.? If you want to get to that next level, that still requires a good bit of work, right? Of course, I'm not saying that's the only reason to do side work. If it is, you probably won't do it for very long. It has to be something you enjoy doing.
But, yeah, I don't think anyone is saying kill yourself for art. Basically, you are what you do. You decide what you want to do and in turn who you are (plus or minus some fortune and misfortune as the case might be ).
I think we're all in a general sort of agreement. You need to know when to work and when to play, once you figure that out you are well ahead of the curve. When you are first learning something, even for a crusty old man like me, you have to put much more time into it. This is why you surround yourself with people in your life (as Two pointed out) who understand when to let you work and when to say, "Dude, you haven't showered in 4 days. I don't think those pixels are going anywhere, take a break."
I'm currently balancing a relationship, running a studio (managing and non art stuff), making a game (in crunch art stuff), working on another game for contract, and still going to social game events.
It can be done. Just requires a lot of work and drive.
One thing I've noticed is that I have a harder time getting started on a new project than I do working on a project I already have established.
The choice of "what to do" distracts me, I guess. Makes me nervous, and it makes me overthink it all. Like "Should I really be making this right now? Is it best for my portfolio?", and it spirals from there, and it takes me way too long to start.
But if I sit down to work some more on a texture, or on a high-poly I've already started, I can get into it right away, almost no matter what mood I'm in, or whether I'm "inspired", or not.
Easy to address, I guess. I just need to sit down, find a concept, and do it, without thinking about it too much.
This thread isn't about depression, it's about motivation. (And yes they CAN be mutually exclusive).
I am under the impression this thread about capable and non-depressed lazy people looking for empathy for their laziness, Which imho is complete bullshit.
If you're depressed you really shouldn't be trying to find answers from an art website.
Its actually the perfect place.
What better way to find someone is not alone in their issues than seeing others with the same issue who can relate?
Your advice and life can be taking with some skepticism. Afterall, (correct me if I'm wrong) you also promoted smoking as a way to network/hangout at one point. All the while with Nicotine being a drug that changes natural behavior.
Without the ciggies, caffeine, sugar/energy drink rushes, alcohol, or other legal drug some on here use to coverup they are just as flawed as the rest of us. I wonder how many hardcore Nike ads of "Just do it" would still be spewed as the dime store answer to all lifes problems. Hell, look at Armstrong. He promoted this as his philosophy of how he won.
I also hope you choose never to become an art director. You wouldn't be able to motivate people under you versus just making them anxious. You pretty much admitted in a follow up post you are closed minded to any other alternative than your own for the creation process.
I haven't read this whole thread, so excuse me if it's been said, if it's irrelevant, or it's stupid, just throwing in my opinion
People get frustrated from reading the same topics over and over again...people get frustrated by others seemingly "complaining" about something that they would be better off spending time working to change it...people don't like handing out things for free that they worked hard to attain or come to learn...others just are shitty people with no sympathy and in my blunt opinion lack the personal decency to respect another human being...but let me propose an idea to you
Sometimes, when someone is weak, suffering, dealing with issues, or just need a helping hand...the best thing that can happen to them is someone else, another human being with no relation to them in any way just simply saying "Hey man, I've been there too...I know it's hard, it's a tough world out there, but you can get through it."
In any of your eyes, would you rather see someone tell another person that statement? Or when you're going through hard times, would you like a personal message, directed at you, telling YOU that it gets better
A personal touch and a direct message to you personally can drastically affect someones mood and change them forever.
If you don't like what someone posted, that's fine; don't respond to it. While you might feel that someones attitude is piss poor and they shouldn't be doing this industry, your comments aren't helpful. Yes the search feature is there, I'm sure he knew it. Could he have just been a slacker wanting someone to do his work for him? Yes, but the personal touch goes a long way
I've been working at a studio for almost 2 years now and 90% of the art I've made has been trashed through no fault of my own...that's pretty unmotivating, and is a complete demoralizer...that doesn't mean I'm not bursting with creativity and just simply thirst for motivation and creativity...it affected me for a long, long time, but through other life changes I've accepted it and I'm working harder than ever
Or do you more often need to take a day off of "fun" to do art? Let's face it, for a lot of people having issues, it's the latter.
Well that's better than nothing right? It must be hard to just break a lifetime of habits and then form new ones instantly. Ideally the days took off for art would grow into the normal day.
Again on the message about doing what you love - and therefore being the 'wrong fit' for this career and getting told to forget about it for some guys: How easy is it to know the difference between types of love or happiness?
I mean if the wannabes should just give up on a career in game-art because they clearly don't love making art 24/7 and enjoy sitting around playing games instead, then by that logic what they love and should make a career in is sitting on their ass playing games. By Jove that cannot be true!
It must be ultimately confusing, depressingly so. How can somebody say they have a passion for art and games when they have no evidence? But they still feel that they do! I know feelings don't really matter but if we're focusing on being up-to-snuff because you're dedicated and love the craft then your only feedback is loving it. So I would assume that lazy guys are also loving the games and their movies and hanging out with friends. It would feel just as good if not better.
It's confusing and shame-inducing to not understand where one's happiness should reside and immediately begin doubting ones dedication/passion because they don't already compare or feel the way that professionals do.
Not just that but a lot of these guys are not just artists, they're game artists; probably not even interested in art for art's sake but because of the games they fell in love with in their youth. Up until this point gaming has more than likely made up an important and identifying element of their lives; and now that they need to jump into a world of hard work this part of their lives now must be considered a distraction - a waste of time? I doubt anybody could simply switch their perspective in such an instant - even with it being the truth.
Feng Zhu and a few other concept artists say the same thing as Haz. Put life aside and work. You can have fun after you're successful.
And lose your prime years. Sounds shit to me.
I definitely wouldn't recommend locking yourself away for this. You're not studying to go work for doctors without borders. It's just game art, mag. Shit aint that serious. Yes there are awesome artists out there like EQ, but they got there by working consistently over several years and growing that way. Not by locking themselves away during their twenties.
Never refuse a day/night out lads (well; except if it's for college). You need that shit to decompress.
Want to be at Feng's level and make a successful career out of art? Then you need to sacrifice.
If you just want a yob to earn a paycheck because "lol, it's just games, what-evs!" then sure, do whatever you want.
But you will reap the appropriate rewards for it. And that's not a bad thing nor is it meant to be insulting - it's just recognizing that different people have different goals.
My assumption is that the person asking the question wants to be successful and not muddle through.
As for EQ, I'd love to hear his story. I'll bet there's more sacrifice and time spent on his craft than you would imagine.
As for EQ, I'd love to hear his story. I'll bet there's more sacrifice and time spent on his craft than you would imagine.
I'll betcha there's more weed than sacrifice in his story. :poly122::poly124::):thumbup: EQ strikes me as a guy who doesn't obsess over the craft; and finds plenty of time for other stuff, like his photography. His unquestionable skill and knowledge comes from years of experience. But then again I was just using Joe as an example,as I don't know him and could be completely wrong.
Super awesome people will get let go just the same as the people that chose life, when a studio shuts down. I guess that's one reason why I feel busting yourself to get into this industry is not worth it; the instability of the job market. No one is safe these days. Sure, you'll get another job really fast if you're really good, hell, you might have people queing up, but if it requires a move or general stress, it wouldn't be worth it for me.
Look at games like Temple Run, etc. That's where the money is, the success. The art is good in that game but not stellar; but its a great idea. If you really feel a serious need to achieve something really worthwhile in this industry, don't be making art for other dudes. Boot up Unity and show the world your entire vision. But again that's just my two cents.
Want to be at Feng's level and make a successful career out of art? Then you need to sacrifice.
Success stories always have some form or sacrifice, but at the same time, I know plenty of great artists that are very successful and didn't have to sacrifice their social or personal lives to get there. DH pops into mind. He's just naturally talented.
Everyone has to work at different paces in order to reach the same level. You just have to identify your own pace.
I guess that's one reason why I feel busting yourself to get into this industry is not worth it.
Holy crap I actually agreed with Andreas about something in a roundabout kind of way.
Dont bust your ass to be in this industry, because Andreas is right THAT is not worth it at all.
Bust your ass to be a better artist. That is 100% WORTH IT.
Make it about you, not what youre going to be working on or who you are going to be working for. Empower yourself, and equip yourself with the skillsets and the tools to make art and get fucking good at it because you want to. To make a clear distinction, once I became selfish about this and turned it around to be about me, instead of worrying about where I wanted to go and who I wanted to work for etc everything else has always taken care of itself.
Focusing on improving my skill + showing the progress all over the web & networking + forgot about getting a job = many job offers coming in, both freelance + in-house that I can freely pick and choose from , in a time where so many people are complaining about not being able to find any work, or that its difficult to get even 1 job offer.
2 things can happen when you change your mindset from I need to get a job to, I need to be a better artist:
1) You'll realize its not that fun to make art as a passion. For those people, you can either quit - or keep doing what youre doing but youll probably always wonder why you can't be as good as xyz artist, or why its hard for you to find a job, or why you dont have many options available to you. Or you could genuinely fall into the completely content category, youve done it. You work in the industry - good for you, carry on doing that! :thumbup:
2) You'll feel liberated, things become clear - youll get to work, and if you are sharing your journey with everyone, in all the places you need to - polycount, deviantart, cghub and 3dtotal things will eventually turn around for you. You will become that guy or girl that keeps pumping out new pieces, always on peoples minds, and money and jobs and opportunities will begin to present themselves - you will put yourself in a position of power.
See the difference? One is all about being at the mercy of the industry. It dictates where you end up, and you follow it. The other is completely unaffected by whats going on in the industry, and is simply about you becoming the badass you know you want to be.
The key to bringing jobs and potential opportunities flooding to your inbox is being that guy or girl that is not content, youre the number 2 person and everyones like 'Fuck! This dude/dudette again, damn they're on fire!' Striving to make every piece better than your last piece and showing everyone your results. Be proud of your work and your decision to empower yourself because it will lead to you being in a position of power.
When I DIDNT think like this, It only took a few years to turn my passion for making game art into something I HAD to do to get money, and that put me in the pool where I'm the same as everyone else, just 'over it' / burned out. So If you dont like being in that place, (I certainly didnt) take steps to turn it around, or suck it up.
People want their lives, they want to be social they want to hang out and muck around have a ton of friends - travel and all the good stuff. No one ever said you can't have that. But you need to realize that if your goal is to be Feng Zhu or Rafael Grassetti from the beginning, you have 0% chance of achieving that by simply making a folio getting and getting a 9-5 art job. Youll never make it. EVER.
Some artists get kinda pissed at that, I think it comes from a place thats part jealousy, part regret. They know they could have been more than they are, or done more than what they did. Especially older artist's watching new / younger artists coming up and blitzing past them. SOME artists are content with just having a job, being an OK artist and having a life, and more power to them for that. But dont be bitter on the job battlefield when youre waving your Ive got a life flag and you get overlooked for the person waving their I fucking love art flag. (pro-tip its super obvious what youve been waving by looking at your folio or following your art progression over the last couple years)
So take your pick. Empower yourself, or be at the mercy of the industry.
Success stories always have some form or sacrifice, but at the same time, I know plenty of great artists that are very successful and didn't have to sacrifice their social or personal lives to get there. DH pops into mind. He's just naturally talented.
Everyone has to work at different paces in order to reach the same level. You just have to identify your own pace.
Exactly. If I woke up one day realizing that I'd throw away my best years chained to a desk for something that has no real bearing on anything other than 'I like it because I like games', and had the carpal tunnel to prove it... well... I can't imagine a worse nightmare.
Like with everything there is a balance to be struck, and no silly rousing speeches should deter you from this. Sure, do the work, but take the play just as seriously. It is very important. It's also a good way to reap what you sow, once you are earning. Travel, nice gadgets, whatever. Decompression is vital to getting past those walls of frustration we all suffer from. Pushing through them won't work. You need to step away from something and come back to it with fresh eyes; you need to process.
But don’t be bitter on the job battlefield when you’re waving your ‘I’ve got a life’ flag and you get overlooked for the person waving their ‘I fucking love art’ flag.
I'm more bitter that it's so binary. Why can't we wave both the 'life' flag and the 'art' flag?
*edit* I know the answer is time and/or "that's life!"
I'm more bitter that it's so binary. Why can't we wave both the 'life' flag and the 'art' flag?
*edit* I know the answer is time and/or "that's life!"
You totally can man, thats the thing. And noones going to hate you or call you out for wanting a life. To look at it slightly different (generalising here)
2 artists in the 'for hire' pool:
Artist 1) spent 10,000 hours on their art - 30 years old.
Artist 2) spent 5,000 hours on art 5,000 on life - 30 years old.
Its in my experience you can tell the difference between the two quite clearly. And Artist 1) is probably going to be hired before Artist 2). Thats all I mean.
And with the way jobs / economy are going - theres lots of Artist 1's out there looking for work right now. Makes it super tough for artist 2.
Replies
I totally agree with you, and having friends doesn't make up for not practicing, however I see that every time polycount has a motivation thread there are theese arch types of post that boils down to:
- Drop your social life and work your ass off on a portfolio
- You are not artist material if you are not motivated
and I can't help feeling a bit saddened about the fact that if you(like me) like to hang out with friends, drink beers, watch movies and such, are not artist material. I can't see the reason for why you should be miserable in order to be an artist.
Also one point I think many people miss when talking in these threads(I'm gonna direct this to JacqueChoi's posts since they are in stark contrast to what I'm about to say, so it shouldn't be taken as offensive in any way.) is that people work, learn and get motivated differently. If you think a brute force approach to getting a better artist and motivation is the one and only answer to all problems, then I believe you are dead wrong. One of my good friends and former colleague told about some seminars he went to about motivation and in our field I would say theres 2 main types of personalities: The end-result and the process. The end-result type(like I am) strive for making the best end result, and if succeeded can and will boost my motivation beyond anything else, and the process type is people who enjoy the entire process a project goes through then the end result that they create.
All that being said, it's important as an artist, or nearly any field, to have self-discipline, so when your motivation fails, you are able to brute force until your motivation comes back.
that's my 50 cents.
In addition to what Hazardous has said, this is an aspect much more related to luck. For every hour of practice you put in, you can expect a concrete return of proficiency increase. Vs you could potentially go to every IGDA mixer in your area, and not make that magic moment happen where you swap awesome golf stories with the local game development owner. I totally agree that as part of a well rounded applicant one should work on their social network as well at the same time, but getting that portfolio up to snuff should be priority 1.
I am with you on this as well, but most skill based careers are gonna take some heavy practice, and at some point, when you want to really level up your game, it will take some pretty hardcore investment of time, probably to the detriment of other areas of life. In my opinion, the beginning stages (university age for most, though I know some people switch careers later in life) is where you prioritize making art the most. Don´t hole up and ignore the world, but this would be a great time to not be paying an MMO subscription, getting high every night, or hitting the bars thurs-sat night. Once that initial level of quality is reached, and a job can be attained, the balance can tip back over to something more reasonable and a regular social life or even a wasteful one can be prioritized if that is what you are into.
I think Ben's point about luck is true. The more work you do, the more luck you'll find you have. And you'll get better at the same time.
Reminds me of that quote, "Success is where preparation meets opportunity." They're not mutually exclusive.
But my point is that there's generally more to it than that - lots and lots of hard work and time and practice that has, in some way, engineered or assisted these situations where fortuitous opportunities and situations arise. And the more work that goes in, the more these things occur.
Partly down to attitude, partly down to having a solid body of work, partly down to knowing (or being known to) other people - but all down to that person having done the hard work required.
I didn't make the map in the hopes of that happening. I made it because I wanted to.
Being involved, being interested, and being motivated create opportunities. They just do!
This is where I'd say that trust comes into it - as in trust in the advice, the experience. I've been ruminating on this thread since Haz's speech and noticed that I've been showing an uncanny resistance to the ideology, and it's clear to me that it's that fear of losing one passion for another.
Then I remembered, as through the years I've heard this kind of advice by many of the people I respect the most in life and when voicing that fear, they always said the same thing:
"Well I told you what I did, and you know what you need to do. The future can be scary but if you follow my advice, it'll work out. Trust me."
Yes exactly. Attitude!!!
I remember being hired by Codemasters because mainly of my attitude.
Too much people forget to work on their attitude while focussing everything on their hard skills.
This might seem insulting but, it fits, at least for me.
Motivation & inspiration to artists, is the feather to Dumbo.
At first, you really don't know how or why it works but you know that it works. You hold that feather really tight because you believe it is the only way you can fly. If you dropped it, you would risk everything to get it back, you would stick your hand in a blender to rescue it.
Later you find that to be, total bullshit and let it go.
If it makes you feel better to think of in less Disney-esk terms think of it as superstition to a sports star. I know after a few rounds of old Disney stuff, I have to watch fight club to get my balls to drop again, but the old classics do touch on a lot of valuable lessons, and not just for animators but for life in general.
- Bambi, single mom raising her only child. Stranger breaks into their house, shoots the kids mom, burns their house down... hardcore.
- Pinocchio, deals with being a self entitle twat monster. HINT: It turns you into a jackass.
- Cinderella, forced to be a slave, sings instead of complains.
- Sleeping Beauty, lived in a dump, with annoying roommates, before she got her castle.
- Alice in Wonderland, Marinate in your dreams, it will take you places.
- Snow White, Act out of jealousy and it will be your undoing.
- Princess and the Frog, its not enough to just wish, you need to work hard. Also the easy way will naturally fuck you over and take longer. Choose the hard way, its easier and faster.
But I'm getting off track...It's not the chicken feet in the locker room, or the funny dance and face paint that got them where they are, its all of the hard work that they put in. The training, the sacrifice and the dogged determination to push through the shit never knowing if it will pay off.
If you need the face paint, the funny dance and the chicken feet to get you moving in the right direction, THEN USE IT! I'm just saying that at some point, you will realize you don't need it, and if you lose that crap, don't waste your time trying to get it back, keep moving forward.
There is one challenge that you will never be able to overcome and that's death. Everything else can be wiped, beaten, overcome and worked around.
The question you ask yourself when you hit a rough spot is, "is this going to end me?" if not you can get up and kick its ass. You might not succeed on the first attempt, in fact people rarely do, but as long as you are still breathing you should never take accept defeat, never.
Also...
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1483699#post1483699
[ame="
Oh, Absolutely! Networking is HUGE to getting a job... however, you still need the skills first (because if you don't have them you'll probably be out of a job fast networking or not, haha). VERY valid point and one that should not be glossed over by any means, thanks for pointing this out!
There was a post by Del a long time ago that was similar, but diagrams. I found it and know that helped a lot of other people. Heres the post from this thread :
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88366
Saying much of the same stuff as Haz is now. Goes to show that the pros all think alike
Haz, you also advocate putting aside everything else in your life for art, and absolutely that can work for some. It certainly worked for you, I believe you are one of the best artists around. But, I am a strong believer in a balanced life. Other people have already stated that networking is key, so you should go out to events and what not. But I also think that friends and family are also important. All work and no play can be bad for your mental health.
You say to stop playing games, stop hanging out with friends, stop watching movies. Basically, stop anything that isn't art. While I don't agree that you should stop completely, I think the underlying message isn't that you need to stop everything, but rather you just need to put the time in to become better. How much time will depend on the person, and certainly some can dedicate more than others. But, I think if you really want to become better, you just need to work on it as often as you can. Even if that's just 20 minutes a day, or an hour a day. Yes, it will take longer than how Hazardous does it, but I think you can still become a great artist and live a balanced life. The key really is just BALANCE.
I also think that you need to ask yourself some serious questions about your time, and the excuses you use of why you aren't or "can't" get any work done. I know I use to say "I`m too busy". Too busy to take online classes. Too busy to animate. Too busy, too busy.... I feel that's something a lot of people say. But, are you really too busy, or too lazy? My "too busy" was me working 9-5, monday to friday, see my g/f 3 - 4 times a week, and watching movies or playing games the rest of the time. I decided to bite the bullet and just take iAnimate. It became so obvious that I wasn't busy, I was lazy. I stopped playing as many games. Stopped watching as many movies, and I actually started animating. Even at the 10-20 hours a week that I was able to get in, I improved so much in just a few months. Some of that was from what I was being taught. But a lot of it was just the extra practice. I still played games. I still watched movies. I still went out with my g/f and my friends. But, instead of throwing on a movie or game right after work when I wasn't going out, I would animate for a few hours first. I would get home and dedicate the next 2 hours to animating, then I would allow myself to play games. But here's the thing. Just doing that, a lot of the time I would get wrapped up in it all and just keep working cause I was doing well. Weekends, I hardly touched a computer. I still don't. But weekdays, I animate way more now than I use to, even if its only 10 hours a week outside of work, it's more than I use to do when I was "too busy".
Evaluate your time and figure out how much you can dedicate to art. If you think you don't have the time then ask yourself, how much time do you spend watching movies, playing games, hanging with friends, or probably the biggest offender, surfing forums! Instead of coming to polycount to read about art, use that time to actually DO art. Even if its 20 minutes a day, it's better than nothing. There's no easy button for becoming a great artist, but there are certainly different routes to take. Each one requires time put in though. Are you willing to do that?
?? Pretty sure most people think that way.
If they did we wouldn't need these threads, no?
We would have 60 of these threads a day if 'only the pros' (feel dirty just typing that) felt this way about it. Vast majority of people don't make these kinds of threads. They just get down to it anyway. Students, hobbyists, aspiring game artists, everybody. The start of the project is always super exciting and then slowly becomes 'work'. Happens to everyone. :thumbup:
I agree for the most part and I don't think you are actually disagreeing with Haz and I don't think Haz is wrong in saying that some people need to kick their own ass and focus.
I think it really depends on the person and how fast they want to improve and how far they have to go to get there as to what steps they should take and how quickly.
Some people get distracted easily and really need to block out all distractions and just focus.
Some people have trouble structuring their own learning path and can't set or stick to self imposed deadlines.
Some people have trouble seeing what they need to work on to improve or building projects that would strengthen those skills.
I've moved back and forth between the learning modes as I've needed them as I'm sure other people have. There was a time that I had a lot of free time and focused on learning. but now I'm one of those people who struggles to find large blocks of time to delicate to progressing. But I structure my day in a way that it gives me some time. It's a nice balance and so far having a job and being able to pay my bills means I'm happy with my slower track of learning.
If I was out of work I would be focused solely on that task and barely coming up for air. I've done it in the past and I wouldn't hesitate to do it again, but being where I'm at I can afford to balance things out a bit and take it slower. It keeps me from burning out and keeps my creativity flowing.
You are going to be a very lonely successful person. The only person who said cast life aside was Mr. Burns when he said, "I'll keep it short and sweet. Family. Religion. Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business. When opportunity knocks, you don't want to be driving to a maternity hospital or sitting in some phony-baloney church. Or synagogue."
You have to have balance. Going to extremes, either side of lazy or dedicated isn't good. If it meant I had to give up my family to be a great artist, well, I'm happy just being a really good artist then.
Even Feng Zhu said in an interview that he likes to fly small personal planes in his free time. You don't get your pilot's license over night. You have to have an outlet and have some free time to keep yourself fresh and avoid burn out. If all you do is art, you'll burn out quickly.
QFT. Really well said.
Ariel the Little Mermaid, Fishing for compliments will get you nowhere.
Tarzan, Monkeying around will get you nowhere.
Lady and the Tramp, Will probably end up as the latter if a job isn't obtained.
Yes, I see a pattern developing here...
People want to hear that they can go out with friends, and play games and watch movies and put in an hour or two a day doing art and they'll be successful in the end. It's all about balance.
I think reality tells a different story.
Turn the TV off, tell your friends you'll see them some other night, and close the browser. Get to work.
Traditional art skills don't change, of course, but that's only part of what it takes to get a job.
My path is a little different than Haz but it has some of the same elements.
I had another job outside the industry doing "graphic design" at the time there really wasn't any game art courses around, so it was a hobby along with playing games. I was slowly learning and growing my skill-set. But when I decided to make a career switch I went balls to the wall for about about a year. I poured every waking second into learning and out of that, I landed some low paying offers, I buckled down even harder and ended up getting a job that could actually replace my old one. From there I slowed down a bit in my outside of work practice but I was working and learning full time. I slowed down, I bought a house, got married, had a kid and I'm still learning but I don't think I could keep that pace up for 40+ years. At some point I had to strike a balance.
But I do agree, realize when you need to buckle down and crank away and do it.
I mean, please don't misunderstand that I'm saying it's a lifestyle and that's what you'll be doing for the rest of your life. However, I do believe it's necessary to get that first job. Once you have that job, you can ease off a little as long as you keep progressing and keep pace with the industry.
I have a very healthy life outside of work now, but it wasn't always this way. Not even close.
It's not that I don't want to hear it, it's just poor advice to tell someone to give up everything until you've become successful. How do I know? Let's just say I'm probably a wee bit older than you and I've been working full time in architecture for the last 10 years. So I've hit a certain level of success all while having friends, found a great girl, married her, had a wonderful son, traveled the world, and still found time to play a few games in between. Yet, I'm still constantly learning new things and ways about the industry. Shit, it took me 7 years to become a fully licensed architect as it's a pain in the ass process here in the US. Yet, still managed time to carve out a nice little social life.
Am I 100% dedicated to my job and my family gets the scraps? Hell no. Am I so dedicated to my family that I literally put in an 8-5 job and don't work one second later? Hell no. It's all about the balance son. I focused when I need to and recharged when I needed to. Yeah we have people in the office that architecture themselves to death and they are generally miserable human beings that live to work rather than work to live.
The idea that you have to crunch all the time, give up everything, and just art yourself to death is what leads to burnout. Burnout leads to lack of motivation. Lack of motivation leads to depression and it has come full circle. This is even true when you are first learning. You need to dedicate yourself harder than ever for sure. But you also have to rest and relax. Each person has different balances. Some can crunch for weeks on end before they need a recharge. Some it's shorter time spans. Each of us knows our limit before we burn out, it's best to listen to our minds and bodies and not go over the limit.
I'm sorry I'm not being clear on this despite my best efforts.
I think folks are just saying that you can't sit there and fuck around all day and then wonder why your portfolio is still empty. If you haven't done art lately and your buddies call you up to get some drinks, you have a choice to make - what's it going to be?
Sacrifice has to come from somewhere. If you're sacrificing your art for your enjoyment, don't expect to do a whole lot of improving. If you're sacrificing more of your "fun" stuff for art, well, expect to do more improving. Sure, it's also possible to sacrifice too much and work yourself to death, I don't think there's anything wrong with taking a day off to ease your mind and help you recharge. A good game, friends, etc.
But you have to ask yourself - is art your routine, are you taking a day off of art to have fun? Or do you more often need to take a day off of "fun" to do art? Let's face it, for a lot of people having issues, it's the latter.
Yeah, I think this is what people are missing here. I distinctly remember that Hazardous was speaking to students.
But of course, what happens when you get that first job and it's not with Epic or Naughty Dog, etc.? If you want to get to that next level, that still requires a good bit of work, right? Of course, I'm not saying that's the only reason to do side work. If it is, you probably won't do it for very long. It has to be something you enjoy doing.
But, yeah, I don't think anyone is saying kill yourself for art. Basically, you are what you do. You decide what you want to do and in turn who you are (plus or minus some fortune and misfortune as the case might be
I'm currently balancing a relationship, running a studio (managing and non art stuff), making a game (in crunch art stuff), working on another game for contract, and still going to social game events.
It can be done. Just requires a lot of work and drive.
One thing I've noticed is that I have a harder time getting started on a new project than I do working on a project I already have established.
The choice of "what to do" distracts me, I guess. Makes me nervous, and it makes me overthink it all. Like "Should I really be making this right now? Is it best for my portfolio?", and it spirals from there, and it takes me way too long to start.
But if I sit down to work some more on a texture, or on a high-poly I've already started, I can get into it right away, almost no matter what mood I'm in, or whether I'm "inspired", or not.
Easy to address, I guess. I just need to sit down, find a concept, and do it, without thinking about it too much.
I just think it's interesting how the mind works.
I guess it has to do with having a clear goal.
Its actually the perfect place.
What better way to find someone is not alone in their issues than seeing others with the same issue who can relate?
Your advice and life can be taking with some skepticism. Afterall, (correct me if I'm wrong) you also promoted smoking as a way to network/hangout at one point. All the while with Nicotine being a drug that changes natural behavior.
Without the ciggies, caffeine, sugar/energy drink rushes, alcohol, or other legal drug some on here use to coverup they are just as flawed as the rest of us. I wonder how many hardcore Nike ads of "Just do it" would still be spewed as the dime store answer to all lifes problems. Hell, look at Armstrong. He promoted this as his philosophy of how he won.
I also hope you choose never to become an art director. You wouldn't be able to motivate people under you versus just making them anxious. You pretty much admitted in a follow up post you are closed minded to any other alternative than your own for the creation process.
People get frustrated from reading the same topics over and over again...people get frustrated by others seemingly "complaining" about something that they would be better off spending time working to change it...people don't like handing out things for free that they worked hard to attain or come to learn...others just are shitty people with no sympathy and in my blunt opinion lack the personal decency to respect another human being...but let me propose an idea to you
Sometimes, when someone is weak, suffering, dealing with issues, or just need a helping hand...the best thing that can happen to them is someone else, another human being with no relation to them in any way just simply saying "Hey man, I've been there too...I know it's hard, it's a tough world out there, but you can get through it."
In any of your eyes, would you rather see someone tell another person that statement? Or when you're going through hard times, would you like a personal message, directed at you, telling YOU that it gets better
A personal touch and a direct message to you personally can drastically affect someones mood and change them forever.
If you don't like what someone posted, that's fine; don't respond to it. While you might feel that someones attitude is piss poor and they shouldn't be doing this industry, your comments aren't helpful. Yes the search feature is there, I'm sure he knew it. Could he have just been a slacker wanting someone to do his work for him? Yes, but the personal touch goes a long way
I've been working at a studio for almost 2 years now and 90% of the art I've made has been trashed through no fault of my own...that's pretty unmotivating, and is a complete demoralizer...that doesn't mean I'm not bursting with creativity and just simply thirst for motivation and creativity...it affected me for a long, long time, but through other life changes I've accepted it and I'm working harder than ever
Again on the message about doing what you love - and therefore being the 'wrong fit' for this career and getting told to forget about it for some guys: How easy is it to know the difference between types of love or happiness?
I mean if the wannabes should just give up on a career in game-art because they clearly don't love making art 24/7 and enjoy sitting around playing games instead, then by that logic what they love and should make a career in is sitting on their ass playing games. By Jove that cannot be true!
It must be ultimately confusing, depressingly so. How can somebody say they have a passion for art and games when they have no evidence? But they still feel that they do! I know feelings don't really matter but if we're focusing on being up-to-snuff because you're dedicated and love the craft then your only feedback is loving it. So I would assume that lazy guys are also loving the games and their movies and hanging out with friends. It would feel just as good if not better.
It's confusing and shame-inducing to not understand where one's happiness should reside and immediately begin doubting ones dedication/passion because they don't already compare or feel the way that professionals do.
Not just that but a lot of these guys are not just artists, they're game artists; probably not even interested in art for art's sake but because of the games they fell in love with in their youth. Up until this point gaming has more than likely made up an important and identifying element of their lives; and now that they need to jump into a world of hard work this part of their lives now must be considered a distraction - a waste of time? I doubt anybody could simply switch their perspective in such an instant - even with it being the truth.
And lose your prime years. Sounds shit to me.
I definitely wouldn't recommend locking yourself away for this. You're not studying to go work for doctors without borders. It's just game art, mag. Shit aint that serious. Yes there are awesome artists out there like EQ, but they got there by working consistently over several years and growing that way. Not by locking themselves away during their twenties.
Never refuse a day/night out lads (well; except if it's for college). You need that shit to decompress.
Want to be at Feng's level and make a successful career out of art? Then you need to sacrifice.
If you just want a yob to earn a paycheck because "lol, it's just games, what-evs!" then sure, do whatever you want.
But you will reap the appropriate rewards for it. And that's not a bad thing nor is it meant to be insulting - it's just recognizing that different people have different goals.
My assumption is that the person asking the question wants to be successful and not muddle through.
As for EQ, I'd love to hear his story. I'll bet there's more sacrifice and time spent on his craft than you would imagine.
I'll betcha there's more weed than sacrifice in his story. :poly122::poly124::):thumbup: EQ strikes me as a guy who doesn't obsess over the craft; and finds plenty of time for other stuff, like his photography. His unquestionable skill and knowledge comes from years of experience. But then again I was just using Joe as an example,as I don't know him and could be completely wrong.
Super awesome people will get let go just the same as the people that chose life, when a studio shuts down. I guess that's one reason why I feel busting yourself to get into this industry is not worth it; the instability of the job market. No one is safe these days. Sure, you'll get another job really fast if you're really good, hell, you might have people queing up, but if it requires a move or general stress, it wouldn't be worth it for me.
Look at games like Temple Run, etc. That's where the money is, the success. The art is good in that game but not stellar; but its a great idea. If you really feel a serious need to achieve something really worthwhile in this industry, don't be making art for other dudes. Boot up Unity and show the world your entire vision. But again that's just my two cents.
Success stories always have some form or sacrifice, but at the same time, I know plenty of great artists that are very successful and didn't have to sacrifice their social or personal lives to get there. DH pops into mind. He's just naturally talented.
Everyone has to work at different paces in order to reach the same level. You just have to identify your own pace.
Holy crap I actually agreed with Andreas about something in a roundabout kind of way.
Dont bust your ass to be in this industry, because Andreas is right THAT is not worth it at all.
Bust your ass to be a better artist. That is 100% WORTH IT.
Make it about you, not what youre going to be working on or who you are going to be working for. Empower yourself, and equip yourself with the skillsets and the tools to make art and get fucking good at it because you want to. To make a clear distinction, once I became selfish about this and turned it around to be about me, instead of worrying about where I wanted to go and who I wanted to work for etc everything else has always taken care of itself.
Focusing on improving my skill + showing the progress all over the web & networking + forgot about getting a job = many job offers coming in, both freelance + in-house that I can freely pick and choose from , in a time where so many people are complaining about not being able to find any work, or that its difficult to get even 1 job offer.
2 things can happen when you change your mindset from I need to get a job to, I need to be a better artist:
1) You'll realize its not that fun to make art as a passion. For those people, you can either quit - or keep doing what youre doing but youll probably always wonder why you can't be as good as xyz artist, or why its hard for you to find a job, or why you dont have many options available to you. Or you could genuinely fall into the completely content category, youve done it. You work in the industry - good for you, carry on doing that! :thumbup:
2) You'll feel liberated, things become clear - youll get to work, and if you are sharing your journey with everyone, in all the places you need to - polycount, deviantart, cghub and 3dtotal things will eventually turn around for you. You will become that guy or girl that keeps pumping out new pieces, always on peoples minds, and money and jobs and opportunities will begin to present themselves - you will put yourself in a position of power.
See the difference? One is all about being at the mercy of the industry. It dictates where you end up, and you follow it. The other is completely unaffected by whats going on in the industry, and is simply about you becoming the badass you know you want to be.
The key to bringing jobs and potential opportunities flooding to your inbox is being that guy or girl that is not content, youre the number 2 person and everyones like 'Fuck! This dude/dudette again, damn they're on fire!' Striving to make every piece better than your last piece and showing everyone your results. Be proud of your work and your decision to empower yourself because it will lead to you being in a position of power.
When I DIDNT think like this, It only took a few years to turn my passion for making game art into something I HAD to do to get money, and that put me in the pool where I'm the same as everyone else, just 'over it' / burned out. So If you dont like being in that place, (I certainly didnt) take steps to turn it around, or suck it up.
People want their lives, they want to be social they want to hang out and muck around have a ton of friends - travel and all the good stuff. No one ever said you can't have that. But you need to realize that if your goal is to be Feng Zhu or Rafael Grassetti from the beginning, you have 0% chance of achieving that by simply making a folio getting and getting a 9-5 art job. Youll never make it. EVER.
Some artists get kinda pissed at that, I think it comes from a place thats part jealousy, part regret. They know they could have been more than they are, or done more than what they did. Especially older artist's watching new / younger artists coming up and blitzing past them. SOME artists are content with just having a job, being an OK artist and having a life, and more power to them for that. But dont be bitter on the job battlefield when youre waving your Ive got a life flag and you get overlooked for the person waving their I fucking love art flag. (pro-tip its super obvious what youve been waving by looking at your folio or following your art progression over the last couple years)
So take your pick. Empower yourself, or be at the mercy of the industry.
Exactly. If I woke up one day realizing that I'd throw away my best years chained to a desk for something that has no real bearing on anything other than 'I like it because I like games', and had the carpal tunnel to prove it... well... I can't imagine a worse nightmare.
Like with everything there is a balance to be struck, and no silly rousing speeches should deter you from this. Sure, do the work, but take the play just as seriously. It is very important. It's also a good way to reap what you sow, once you are earning.
*edit* I know the answer is time and/or "that's life!"
You totally can man, thats the thing. And noones going to hate you or call you out for wanting a life. To look at it slightly different (generalising here)
2 artists in the 'for hire' pool:
Artist 1) spent 10,000 hours on their art - 30 years old.
Artist 2) spent 5,000 hours on art 5,000 on life - 30 years old.
Its in my experience you can tell the difference between the two quite clearly. And Artist 1) is probably going to be hired before Artist 2). Thats all I mean.
And with the way jobs / economy are going - theres lots of Artist 1's out there looking for work right now. Makes it super tough for artist 2.