You totally can man, thats the thing. And noones going to hate you or call you out for wanting a life. To look at it slightly different (generalising here)
2 artists in the 'for hire' pool:
Artist 1) spent 10,000 hours on their art - 30 years old.
Artist 2) spent 5,000 hours on art 5,000 on life - 30 years old.
Its in my experience you can tell the difference between the two quite clearly. And Artist 1) is probably going to be hired before Artist 2). Thats all I mean.
And with the way jobs / economy are going - theres lots of Artist 1's out there looking for work right now. Makes it super tough for artist 2.
Yeah I knew what you're saying. I'm just being a grumblebutt.
Exactly. If I woke up one day realizing that I'd throw away my best years chained to a desk for something that has no real bearing on anything other than 'I like it because I like games', and had the carpal tunnel to prove it... well... I can't imagine a worse nightmare.
Like with everything there is a balance to be struck, and no silly rousing speeches should deter you from this. Sure, do the work, but take the play just as seriously. It is very important. It's also a good way to reap what you sow, once you are earning. Travel, nice gadgets, whatever. Decompression is vital to getting past those walls of frustration we all suffer from. Pushing through them won't work. You need to step away from something and come back to it with fresh eyes; you need to process.
...is how mediocre artists/level designers/whatever talk. I don't know how else to describe it.
"But I want to go out with my friends!", "But I want to watch the game!", "But I want to play Call of Duty!", But, But, But ... anything to avoid putting in the work under the guise of balance and 'having a life'.
Remember what I said before, "What you focus on grows".
If you want to be awesome at making art, then make art. If you want to be awesome at not making art, then don't make art. It's pretty simple.
And you keep going back to this idea of "throwing away your best years". Well, if your goal is to be a great artist and you achieve that - what years did you throw away exactly? That sounds more like an investment to me. One that paid off, handsomely.
It honestly sounds like you don't want to be an artist. Not really. I might be wrong on that but your arguments in favor of slacking off, "it's just games, lol", and all that leads me to think that.
is how mediocre artists/level designers/whatever talk. I don't know how else to describe it.
It honestly sounds like you don't want to be an artist. Not really. I might be wrong on that but your arguments in favor of slacking off, "it's just games, lol", and all that leads me to think that.
I can see how anybody who wants to refute the message of this thread would look like a lazy good-for-nothing and I agree that they likely have a hand in it (It's not like I can provide evidence of something).
While it is clear and true that the nature of the world and business means that only the most dedicated and single-minded will triumph; the counter-argument here is that the solution should not be so binary and absolute. Things like "You're asking questions about motivation? Artists never have this problem so give up!" , "You're not an artist if you're not working on it 24/7" , "Stop doing *insert thing person likes to do* or else you're not going anywhere" , "You should see *insert thing person likes to do* as a waste of time" etc etc
Forgive me, I did embellish that a little, I don't think anybody actually said that in those words. Simply the greater message of this thread that is clearly true and endorsed is that "you need to work hard to get good" or even "work hard or else." Unfortunately as this gets discussed, those who disagree or wish to provide their own modification to this message will be vilified as 'lazy' or that they don't get to call themselves artists.
Of course some people do just have an aversion to work, they will probably find the advice-pill hard to swallow the solution is "get back to work sonny!" So these threads are interesting and good to discuss. We discover interesting ways to motivate each other and analyze what it means to have balance or even what constitutes an artist. Hopefully without assuming that those who aren't so pro aren't so worthless.
I have jumped ship from games art to CGI; landed myself a job in it with extreme hard work and admitdly good fortune. I want to still chase the games Art jobs in the future, however after a day of working within 3DS Max the last thing I want to spend my free time again back in 3DS Max modeling for games stuff. However, I have just downloaded Sculptris, I have mudbox but I was never like "woah amazing" for sculpting atleast. Within 10 secs of playing with Sculptris without looking for buttons I am in love with it and has given me some extra motivation to get stuck into sculpting as I can use it for both CGI stuff and games, but its the freshness of it and total lack of familiarity with the program.
I am pretty sure I have posted here before in this thread but I have alot to do today so I cba to try and see if it is. But with anything that requires constant work, it will drain on you and some people can slug away it for hours and hours. If you love something you will know you love it. Simple as that. Example I love a cup of tea straight after marmite toast, doesnt mean I want to constantly eat it and drink tea straight after, however some people can and will say "its mind over matter", but Art.... this is sounding really arty farty for me, is about passion and if you like "Art" stuff then its good to take a break and re-find that love if it is something you love.
Ive noticed the skill level is ever increasing but also what is needed from Artists is changing. It wont be long before scanners totaly kill of the prop guy (unless its for fantasy stuff), so maybe you need to look at new areas, I did with CGI and I love it as well, mainly because I love the moments when things "click". I hate and loave UV mapping. Its the worst thing ever, but its a part of the process and when its all done, the textures look awesome the lighting is spot on and then its all done you can have that feeling of warm fuzzyies, until you realise you need to do something new :P.
A bit of a mad rant, but to put it short. Everyone needs a break, everyone is different but if you love something you will do something about it. Unless your lazy then there is literally no hope for you as its only down to you. Noone else. You.
...is how mediocre artists/level designers/whatever talk. I don't know how else to describe it.
Well this is complete bullshit I'm afraid. Plenty of super talented people take having a life away from their career extremely seriously. Just because they don't slave away doesn't mean they can't bat at the same level as someone who does. If anything that break, mental or otherwise, keeps them fresher. The world is not as black and white as you and a few others are painting it.
And I've been in the game Warren, can you say the same? Last time I worked in CG, I did the 9AM to 9PM thing, every day including through weekends; for no overtime; I and many others. Stupid, absolutely, but I really wanted to see the project finished to the level it deserved. As soon as it was done I quit and will most likely never go back to in-house. It just ain't worth it. Life is passing you by being all idealistic about shit like that.
Have I been in the game? Are we whipping them out now? I've been making games professionally for 15+ years so, yes.
The big point that gets missed time and time again is the part where I specify that this is what you need to do to get yourself up to speed and break in. Once you're in and already successful, yes, enjoy life! Go out, have fun, have a great balance. But until that time, you need to be working on your craft.
9am-9pm doesn't say much ... is that chained to your desk working or chained to your desk improving your craft? Because if you're just crunching, that's not advancing you as an artist and is not what I'm talking about.
I'm going to back out of this now. You're just not hearing me and it's pretty clear that we're going in circles at this point.
I know my advice is the advice that young artists don't to hear but not focusing on getting better with every hour you have when you're young means that guys like Hazardous are going to eat your lunch, every time. Then you end up bitching on message boards about how there aren't any jobs.
'working hard sucks. it sucks all your energy out and means you will be less able to look cool, have friends and be a useful member of society.
you will also grow hairy palms and your family won't respect you, take my advice, get down the pub and have a few beers, smoke a few cigarettes and stop worrying so much.'
a famous lifestyle guru told me that and now I have no money or friends:(
I'm going to back out of this now. You're just not hearing me and it's pretty clear that we're going in circles at this point.
I know my advice is the advice that young artists don't to hear but not focusing on getting better with every hour you have when you're young means that guys like Hazardous are going to eat your lunch, every time. Then you end up bitching on message boards about how there aren't any jobs.
Thanks for the debate!
I would say don't back out as you have brought up some interesting points and a good one about busting your ass until you get into the industry - when you finally get that job you can relax a little, or take your skills to the next level depending how you want to progress. I guess maybe some of your comments could have been misconstrued as "You're never going to make it unless you put every minute of every day into your career." Anyway, what you said makes a lot of sense!
you will also grow hairy palms and your family won't respect you, take my advice, get down the pub and have a few beers, smoke a few cigarettes and stop worrying so much.'
Not sure if this is new but the problem I have is it seems like is that I do spend most of my time on art but the rate at which I'm improving seems sooo slowww. It's kind of depressing. I'm 25 and although I did manage to get my first industry job a few years ago working on a AAA game, and since then i've been lucky enough to land positions working on that - i've spent so much of my time since I've been out of school on a computer in a dark room trying to continue to improve my craft. I feel like there are a lot of things I mightve missed out on because ive been so focused on one thing I want to start having a life again but when I look at who I'm up against when the time comes to finding a job (for example if I want to relocate,etc..) I still have a bit to go. I worry that my 20s will be just me being stuck to a desk, but it seems like until I reach a certain skill level that's the only option I have.
I think everybody hits that wall sooner or later where the drive is there but the progression isn't. I found that proper use of ref and keeping yourself upto date with the top artists work out there really helps.
Alot of people just copy ref, not alot dissect it and then carry that knowledge and theory along with them. Cloth is a good example where it's easy to find some folds you like and copy that but understanding why it's folding the way it is is another point entirely. You start looking at the volumes underneath, the tension spots, the primary/secondary/tertiary folds, the different types of folds, outside influences etc. same goes for materials and anatomy and pretty much everything you use ref for. This adds that extra dimension to your work that is sometimes needed. You can see this wall in people's work alot and its either due to complacency or lack of drive. Both are things most artists must avoid like the plague.
Following top artists is another good way of progressing. I think we all have a little bit of friendly competitiveness in us which is why you should always look to the top artists and say to yourself 'one day they will look at my work and shit bricks!!!' If you are constantly pushing yourself then you should see good results.
But none of this means anything if you are not willing to put in the time. Nobody is saying kill yourself in this but you do have to sit your butt down if you are to progress in any possible way!!!
Not sure if this is new but the problem I have is it seems like is that I do spend most of my time on art but the level at which I'm improving seems sooo slowww. It's kind of depressing.
Can you give an example of how your trying to progress?
Ive often found that someone will go "Okay I want to learn about composition!" and then start modeling and texturing props to go into the scene to make up the composition. Thats not the way to do it. If you're looking to create an interesting composition shot, then just use gray boxes and primitive shapes to build your scene up around the camera Or grab a cheap camera and start heading out to take photo's and training your eye to look for interesting composition etc.
When you reach this point, invest the time into figuring out why things arent progressing and try to address those.
Identify the things you want to get better at, and then be like the eye of sauron on that shit. Just focus on that and only that - then apply your new learnings to a bigger model / scene later on.
Edit: Realising that your wasting a tonne of time behind the desk when you thought you were learning can be really disheartening btw. I've been there for sure - and that's when thoughts like 'I'm wasting my life' creep in. I sat on a plataeu for the longest time before realising what I personally needed to do kick the plataeu in the ass was value studies.
well I'd like to get better at modeling environments and assets- so I am modeling a vehicle. I also modeled an environment based off the 6th street bridge in los angeles...It just take so long for me to get them to a point where I actually like how they look.
In general i think is what''s holding me back is I focus too much on detail, and I'm not sure how to stop doing that. Not sure what catagory that falls into : /
9am-9pm doesn't say much ... is that chained to your desk working or chained to your desk improving your craft? Because if you're just crunching, that's not advancing you as an artist
Again, untrue. Practice is practice. You should always be improving your craft and learning techniques and then bringing that into your workflow. Otherwise what do you think is the point of improving? Study at home, bring what you learn back into work.
You've got a very black and white, generalized viewpoint of the world. Could be from spending the last 15 years chained to a desk But I agree with you, very little point in discussing with you; your viewpoint is just too narrow.
well I'd like to get better at modeling environments and assets- so I am modeling a vehicle. I also modeled an environment based off the 6th street bridge in los angeles...It just take so long for me to get them to a point where I actually like how they look.
In general i think is what''s holding me back is I focus too much on detail, and I'm not sure how to stop doing that. Not sure what catagory that falls into : /
It's awesome to see that despite having professional work in your folio your still pushing to improove :thumbup:
In 2d one of the ways to combat that problem of getting caught up in details is to paint with a large brush strokes, and never zoom in.
Maybe you could try blocking all your main things out quickly, to find some shapes / silhouettes you like when making things like vehicles etc or jumping from greyboxing to lighting in ue3 or crysis when your making enviros. Try and change up you usual workflow, and inject some of the things you enjoy earlier into your pipeline.
Or if you love details, and you simply gotta have them, then maybe look into modo and follow Snefer like a shadow and force him to reveal why he can make an insanely detailed environment / prop in so little time
What I want to say now is seen from a technical art perspective.
Every day I have been investing my energy in both research in computer graphics (programming, shaders, art, level design, ...) and even more time in researching knowledge like neuroscience, biology, psychology, ... For me this is a way to create new perspectives to reflect again on what I already know.
I am a huge believer in creating a solid foundation instead specialization as specialization is something that will come with the years anyway. By learning something new like mathematics, I try to constantly associate this with my work as a technical artist. This has been a real eye opener for me and I can only refer it to everyone.
This is one of the reasons why I made my gdc presentation about "how breakdance taught me to be a technical artist" As looking from a different perspective has taught me many things I was not aware of.
These 'aaaaaah' moments when seeing the connecting between 2 perspectives has been very motivating and inspiring for me. So if you lost motivation or need inspiration, it might be worth learning a new skill and find out what you can learn from it to become a better artist. You do not know, what you do not know. So taking small steps and experimentation are key for bringing clarity about how and why you are (not) doing things.
You might even learn more about yourself, which is always a good thing
I need to point out for those that believe the best way is to lock oneself away in a room until one is ready has been show by cognitive.scientists not the best way to learn:
As well as then on top limiting your mental growth by not getting out/exercising/socializing while limiting your focus to one area can effect your cognitive skills later and can even slow down progression.
I would be very careful of telling people to lock themselves away with the reasoning they can always pick up their life later. The science is against you for one. I know It certainly hasn't done me any favors.
(a) locking yourself away, 24/7, working on art
(b) spending an hour a day on art and the rest smoking blunts
It's about choices. You have an hour to spare. How do you spend it?
That's what it's about. Life is full of choices. The generally accepted 10,000 hours to become a master of something doesn't happen without putting in ... I think ... around 10,000 hours. Find those hours.
(a) locking yourself away, 24/7, working on art
(b) spending an hour a day on art and the rest smoking blunts
I absolutely agree. But option a) is what some people are advertising here. Which is the problem I have with it. My opinion is that it is wrong to promote that kind of work ethic to anyone. Especially the young'uns just getting in the game. A balance is what I've been suggesting all along.
That's what it's about. Life is full of choices. The generally accepted 10,000 hours to become a master of something doesn't happen without putting in ... I think ... around 10,000 hours. Find those hours.
I swear when I was a kid I could find those hours everywhere: on the lawn, under the couch, between my teeth...
I know you're joking around, but to be a little clearer ... People find hours for things they want to do. Somehow there's no time to work on art but there's always time to go drinking. You know?
As someone who has struggled with their time, sometimes with dozens of hours a week to work on art and sometimes with two, I honestly think that's oversimplifying and doing a disservice to the experience and advice you surely DO have to offer, Warren.
You're ignoring two major factors:
1- An hour drinking (or playing videogames, or hanging out with friends, or whatever your poison is) is a hell of a lot easier than an hour productively studying art.
2- Not everybody who says they lack motivation or time is clearing their art schedule to go have fun. Many are staring at their blank canvas, anxious and angry and having a hard time actually productively leveraging their time.
Instead of recycling tired, well established advice, why not share your experience and suggest actual solutions to young artists' lifestyle problems? What changes did YOU make in your life to find time for art? What struggles did you have to overcome?
Feng zhu, who is very vocal about the need to commit a LOT of time to art, and sacrifice everything else in your life, repeatedly states in his videos that most artists should enroll in school, because he does not believe very many artists are capable of devoting as many hours as they should to fundamentals without structure. What do you believe?
I know you're joking around, but to be a little clearer ... People find hours for things they want to do. Somehow there's no time to work on art but there's always time to go drinking. You know?
This reminds me of exercise. I go 3x a week, for 45 minutes each. I am consistent though, and I have seen some good results. When people imply I live at the gym, when I know they watch more than 3 hours of TV a week (sometimes a day) it just gives me eye strain from rolling my eyes so hard.
Instead of recycling tired, well established advice, why not share your experience and suggest actual solutions to young artists' lifestyle problems? What changes did YOU make in your life to find time for art? What struggles did you have to overcome?
The problem with this (very good question) is that my answer will not work for everyone else. I agree saying "just do it" is an oversimplification, but it is shorthand for "find whatever your individual circumstance is going to take to overcome the easy way out."
For me, with the gym, or 3d, I make myself do at least 5 minutes every day. Oftentimes this 5 minutes will turn into a full workout session on gym days, or an hour or two of texturing, but sometimes it actually only is 5 minutes of texturing, but that is still 5 minutes further along than if I did nothing. Sometimes bargaining with yourself is a worthwhile tactic.
The problem with this (very good question) is that my answer will not work for everyone else. I agree saying "just do it" is an oversimplification, but it is shorthand for "find whatever your individual circumstance is going to take to overcome the easy way out."
Well obviously, but spreading information and seeing other viewpoints helps. And at the very least it gives young artists something to relate to, and is a lot more productive than the elitist, exclusionary 'go big or go home' attitude that it's really easy to fall into.
For me, with the gym, or 3d, I make myself do at least 5 minutes every day. Oftentimes this 5 minutes will turn into a full workout session on gym days, or an hour or two of texturing, but sometimes it actually only is 5 minutes of texturing, but that is still 5 minutes further along than if I did nothing. Sometimes bargaining with yourself is a worthwhile tactic.
Holy shit man, that's a really good tip. It fits with other tactics i've used and heard of, but I've never really seen it laid out as simply as that. It's actually what I'm doing this morning, but seeing it explained in that simple 5 minute rule is really great, and something I'm going to start doing in the future. Kindof a eureka moment for me, so thank you very much for sharing that!
Along those same lines, something I've been doing lately to manage multiple projects is my 20 minute timer.
I have about 5 projects (everything from making stuff to trying to learn new skills) I'm working on at the moment so I have a timer on my PC that I set for 20 minutes. I pick a task and work at it until the timer runs out - fun or not, it's a 20 minute minimum. At that point I can either continue (if I'm in the groove) or reset the timer and try a different task for awhile.
Because then, as Ben said, if nothing else at least that one project is 20 minutes further down the pipe.
It's amazing how after that first 20 minutes you can often go from not really interested to fully engaged.
One thing many of you seem to forget is that it's also important to work smart. Simply putting hours into work just doesn't do it, you need to practice the right stuff, do it the right way and so on. Simply working a whole lot without improvement will get you nowhere, it will just make you better at where you currently are(which often is a lower level). Would you really want to sacrifice time to spend with your family and friends for that?
Also, I've been meaning to say this for a while but there is no need to attack people for their lack of art posts because of their attitudes. I can understand that there is a reason for some people not to post here and that's probably because of the risk of others not judging their art objectively. Hell, I'd be afraid to post my stuff too if people already disliked me. Enough with the hate!
Here is my favorite quote that I pop out whenever someone emails about this kind of thing.
The advice I like to give young artists, or really anybody wholl listen to me, is not to wait around for inspiration. Inspiration is for amateurs; the rest of us just show up and get to work. If you wait around for the clouds to part and a bolt of lightning to strike you in the brain, you are not going to make an awful lot of work. All the best ideas come out of the process; they come out of the work itself. Things occur to you. If youre sitting around trying to dream up a great art idea, you can sit there a long time before anything happens. But if you just get to work, something will occur to you and something else will occur to you and something else that you reject will push you in another direction. Inspiration is absolutely unnecessary and somehow deceptive. You feel like you need this great idea before you can get down to work, and I find thats almost never the case. -Chuck Close
In before the obligatory "inspiration is for amateurs" quote ?
Sorry, marks. You were too late
@Anuxinamooh: That's very interesting. The stuff I usually hear people say is that they do game art for the art and not so much for the game. The limitations are what attracts people usually(no need for 53 10240x10240 maps)
One thing many of you seem to forget is that it's also important to work smart. Simply putting hours into work just doesn't do it, you need to practice the right stuff, do it the right way and so on. Simply working a whole lot without improvement will get you nowhere, it will just make you better at where you currently are(which often is a lower level). Would you really want to sacrifice time to spend with your family and friends for that?
I was running on the assumption that the person in question would be pushing themselves. But, yes, spending umpteen hours doing stuff you already know is effectively a waste of time.
One thing many of you seem to forget is that it's also important to work smart. Simply putting hours into work just doesn't do it, you need to practice the right stuff, do it the right way and so on. Simply working a whole lot without improvement will get you nowhere, it will just make you better at where you currently are(which often is a lower level). Would you really want to sacrifice time to spend with your family and friends for that?
This is very true.
That's like going to art school and expecting a job simply because you have a degree.
I was running on the assumption that the person in question would be pushing themselves. But, yes, spending umpteen hours doing stuff you already know is effectively a waste of time.
unfortunately this is not inherently obvious to everyone. It's a big problem I had personally when first trying to get better at 2d. everyone just keeps saying put time into it, time time time. That's great, and true, but some time can be spent in more productive ways depending on what you are doing to progress. As for me, I really didn't understand the concept and just tried drawing and drawing and drawing in my sketchbook. It was shit, and honestly I don't think I really improved at all. After someone pointed out "hey you should probably be using reference or drawing from life or focusing on x" my progress improved exponentially... so personally I don't think it's enough to tell someone starting out to just spend more time on it. It is hugely beneficial to offer some 'practical' advice or direction even if it might seem completely obvious to you.
These 2 things are super motivating and helpful- thanks Hazardous and Nysuatro!
I think today I'm going to go to the beach with my boyfriend and learn how to surf, then go block out the rest of them shapez
"In 2d one of the ways to combat that problem of getting caught up in details is to paint with a large brush strokes, and never zoom in.
Maybe you could try blocking all your main things out quickly, to find some shapes / silhouettes you like when making things like vehicles etc or jumping from greyboxing to lighting in ue3 or crysis when your making enviros. Try and change up you usual workflow, and inject some of the things you enjoy earlier into your pipeline.
Or if you love details, and you simply gotta have them, then maybe look into modo and follow Snefer like a shadow and force him to reveal why he can make an insanely detailed environment / prop in so little time "
"What I want to say now is seen from a technical art perspective.
Every day I have been investing my energy in both research in computer graphics (programming, shaders, art, level design, ...) and even more time in researching knowledge like neuroscience, biology, psychology, ... For me this is a way to create new perspectives to reflect again on what I already know.
I am a huge believer in creating a solid foundation instead specialization as specialization is something that will come with the years anyway. By learning something new like mathematics, I try to constantly associate this with my work as a technical artist. This has been a real eye opener for me and I can only refer it to everyone.
These 'aaaaaah' moments when seeing the connecting between 2 perspectives has been very motivating and inspiring for me. So if you lost motivation or need inspiration, it might be worth learning a new skill and find out what you can learn from it to become a better artist. You do not know, what you do not know. So taking small steps and experimentation are key for bringing clarity about how and why you are (not) doing things. "
unfortunately this is not inherently obvious to everyone. It's a big problem I had personally when first trying to get better at 2d. everyone just keeps saying put time into it, time time time. That's great, and true, but some time can be spent in more productive ways depending on what you are doing to progress. As for me, I really didn't understand the concept and just tried drawing and drawing and drawing in my sketchbook. It was shit, and honestly I don't think I really improved at all. After someone pointed out "hey you should probably be using reference or drawing from life or focusing on x" my progress improved exponentially... so personally I don't think it's enough to tell someone starting out to just spend more time on it. It is hugely beneficial to offer some 'practical' advice or direction even if it might seem completely obvious to you.
Yep, that's a fair point. It's not just the hours you spend it's what you're DOING with them that matters.
What better way to find someone is not alone in their issues than seeing others with the same issue who can relate?
Your advice and life can be taking with some skepticism. Afterall, (correct me if I'm wrong) you also promoted smoking as a way to network/hangout at one point. All the while with Nicotine being a drug that changes natural behavior.
Without the ciggies, caffeine, sugar/energy drink rushes, alcohol, or other legal drug some on here use to coverup they are just as flawed as the rest of us. I wonder how many hardcore Nike ads of "Just do it" would still be spewed as the dime store answer to all lifes problems. Hell, look at Armstrong. He promoted this as his philosophy of how he won.
I also hope you choose never to become an art director. You wouldn't be able to motivate people under you versus just making them anxious. You pretty much admitted in a follow up post you are closed minded to any other alternative than your own for the creation process.
As much as staying motivated and breaking into the industry depends on putting in the hard work, I tend to give out some additional advice:
Have a plan to differentiate yourself. Too many students assume all they need to land that job is reaching the next artistic level. There is nothing wrong with striving to become a masterful artist, but if you find yourself running with the pack it is time to re-evaluate your approach.
The cold hard truth is jobs don't just grow on trees, even for the exceptionally talented. There is no guarantee a position will be waiting for you after you improve. Instead put yourself in the shoes of an employer and ask what, if anything, makes you stand out. Might sound like a bleak outlook, but I've always found it to be great motivation to think outside the box and discover unique ways of making yourself valuable.
Replies
Yeah I knew what you're saying. I'm just being a grumblebutt.
...is how mediocre artists/level designers/whatever talk. I don't know how else to describe it.
"But I want to go out with my friends!", "But I want to watch the game!", "But I want to play Call of Duty!", But, But, But ... anything to avoid putting in the work under the guise of balance and 'having a life'.
Remember what I said before, "What you focus on grows".
If you want to be awesome at making art, then make art. If you want to be awesome at not making art, then don't make art. It's pretty simple.
And you keep going back to this idea of "throwing away your best years". Well, if your goal is to be a great artist and you achieve that - what years did you throw away exactly? That sounds more like an investment to me. One that paid off, handsomely.
It honestly sounds like you don't want to be an artist. Not really. I might be wrong on that but your arguments in favor of slacking off, "it's just games, lol", and all that leads me to think that.
DONE!
I can see how anybody who wants to refute the message of this thread would look like a lazy good-for-nothing and I agree that they likely have a hand in it (It's not like I can provide evidence of something).
While it is clear and true that the nature of the world and business means that only the most dedicated and single-minded will triumph; the counter-argument here is that the solution should not be so binary and absolute. Things like "You're asking questions about motivation? Artists never have this problem so give up!" , "You're not an artist if you're not working on it 24/7" , "Stop doing *insert thing person likes to do* or else you're not going anywhere" , "You should see *insert thing person likes to do* as a waste of time" etc etc
Forgive me, I did embellish that a little, I don't think anybody actually said that in those words. Simply the greater message of this thread that is clearly true and endorsed is that "you need to work hard to get good" or even "work hard or else." Unfortunately as this gets discussed, those who disagree or wish to provide their own modification to this message will be vilified as 'lazy' or that they don't get to call themselves artists.
Of course some people do just have an aversion to work, they will probably find the advice-pill hard to swallow the solution is "get back to work sonny!" So these threads are interesting and good to discuss. We discover interesting ways to motivate each other and analyze what it means to have balance or even what constitutes an artist. Hopefully without assuming that those who aren't so pro aren't so worthless.
I am pretty sure I have posted here before in this thread but I have alot to do today so I cba to try and see if it is. But with anything that requires constant work, it will drain on you and some people can slug away it for hours and hours. If you love something you will know you love it. Simple as that. Example I love a cup of tea straight after marmite toast, doesnt mean I want to constantly eat it and drink tea straight after, however some people can and will say "its mind over matter", but Art.... this is sounding really arty farty for me, is about passion and if you like "Art" stuff then its good to take a break and re-find that love if it is something you love.
Ive noticed the skill level is ever increasing but also what is needed from Artists is changing. It wont be long before scanners totaly kill of the prop guy (unless its for fantasy stuff), so maybe you need to look at new areas, I did with CGI and I love it as well, mainly because I love the moments when things "click". I hate and loave UV mapping. Its the worst thing ever, but its a part of the process and when its all done, the textures look awesome the lighting is spot on and then its all done you can have that feeling of warm fuzzyies, until you realise you need to do something new :P.
A bit of a mad rant, but to put it short. Everyone needs a break, everyone is different but if you love something you will do something about it. Unless your lazy then there is literally no hope for you as its only down to you. Noone else. You.
Well this is complete bullshit I'm afraid. Plenty of super talented people take having a life away from their career extremely seriously. Just because they don't slave away doesn't mean they can't bat at the same level as someone who does. If anything that break, mental or otherwise, keeps them fresher. The world is not as black and white as you and a few others are painting it.
And I've been in the game Warren, can you say the same? Last time I worked in CG, I did the 9AM to 9PM thing, every day including through weekends; for no overtime; I and many others. Stupid, absolutely, but I really wanted to see the project finished to the level it deserved. As soon as it was done I quit and will most likely never go back to in-house. It just ain't worth it. Life is passing you by being all idealistic about shit like that.
Nice post l.croxton. I agree.
The big point that gets missed time and time again is the part where I specify that this is what you need to do to get yourself up to speed and break in. Once you're in and already successful, yes, enjoy life! Go out, have fun, have a great balance. But until that time, you need to be working on your craft.
9am-9pm doesn't say much ... is that chained to your desk working or chained to your desk improving your craft? Because if you're just crunching, that's not advancing you as an artist and is not what I'm talking about.
I'm going to back out of this now. You're just not hearing me and it's pretty clear that we're going in circles at this point.
I know my advice is the advice that young artists don't to hear but not focusing on getting better with every hour you have when you're young means that guys like Hazardous are going to eat your lunch, every time. Then you end up bitching on message boards about how there aren't any jobs.
Thanks for the debate!
you will also grow hairy palms and your family won't respect you, take my advice, get down the pub and have a few beers, smoke a few cigarettes and stop worrying so much.'
a famous lifestyle guru told me that and now I have no money or friends:(
Is the F for french?
I would say don't back out as you have brought up some interesting points and a good one about busting your ass until you get into the industry - when you finally get that job you can relax a little, or take your skills to the next level depending how you want to progress. I guess maybe some of your comments could have been misconstrued as "You're never going to make it unless you put every minute of every day into your career." Anyway, what you said makes a lot of sense!
Frodo? Is that you?
I'd be willing to continue the discussion but somebody needs to bring a new point to the table or it's just circles ...
Alot of people just copy ref, not alot dissect it and then carry that knowledge and theory along with them. Cloth is a good example where it's easy to find some folds you like and copy that but understanding why it's folding the way it is is another point entirely. You start looking at the volumes underneath, the tension spots, the primary/secondary/tertiary folds, the different types of folds, outside influences etc. same goes for materials and anatomy and pretty much everything you use ref for. This adds that extra dimension to your work that is sometimes needed. You can see this wall in people's work alot and its either due to complacency or lack of drive. Both are things most artists must avoid like the plague.
Following top artists is another good way of progressing. I think we all have a little bit of friendly competitiveness in us which is why you should always look to the top artists and say to yourself 'one day they will look at my work and shit bricks!!!' If you are constantly pushing yourself then you should see good results.
But none of this means anything if you are not willing to put in the time. Nobody is saying kill yourself in this but you do have to sit your butt down if you are to progress in any possible way!!!
Can you give an example of how your trying to progress?
Ive often found that someone will go "Okay I want to learn about composition!" and then start modeling and texturing props to go into the scene to make up the composition. Thats not the way to do it. If you're looking to create an interesting composition shot, then just use gray boxes and primitive shapes to build your scene up around the camera Or grab a cheap camera and start heading out to take photo's and training your eye to look for interesting composition etc.
When you reach this point, invest the time into figuring out why things arent progressing and try to address those.
Identify the things you want to get better at, and then be like the eye of sauron on that shit. Just focus on that and only that - then apply your new learnings to a bigger model / scene later on.
Edit: Realising that your wasting a tonne of time behind the desk when you thought you were learning can be really disheartening btw. I've been there for sure - and that's when thoughts like 'I'm wasting my life' creep in. I sat on a plataeu for the longest time before realising what I personally needed to do kick the plataeu in the ass was value studies.
In general i think is what''s holding me back is I focus too much on detail, and I'm not sure how to stop doing that. Not sure what catagory that falls into : /
Again, untrue. Practice is practice. You should always be improving your craft and learning techniques and then bringing that into your workflow. Otherwise what do you think is the point of improving? Study at home, bring what you learn back into work.
You've got a very black and white, generalized viewpoint of the world. Could be from spending the last 15 years chained to a desk
Artist= Produces work with some variety.
Fartist= Mostly just models T&A.
comeon man. no flame baiting.
We all know there are many classic artists / masters that didnt' have a variety to their artwork.
It's awesome to see that despite having professional work in your folio your still pushing to improove
In 2d one of the ways to combat that problem of getting caught up in details is to paint with a large brush strokes, and never zoom in.
Maybe you could try blocking all your main things out quickly, to find some shapes / silhouettes you like when making things like vehicles etc or jumping from greyboxing to lighting in ue3 or crysis when your making enviros. Try and change up you usual workflow, and inject some of the things you enjoy earlier into your pipeline.
Or if you love details, and you simply gotta have them, then maybe look into modo and follow Snefer like a shadow and force him to reveal why he can make an insanely detailed environment / prop in so little time
Every day I have been investing my energy in both research in computer graphics (programming, shaders, art, level design, ...) and even more time in researching knowledge like neuroscience, biology, psychology, ... For me this is a way to create new perspectives to reflect again on what I already know.
I am a huge believer in creating a solid foundation instead specialization as specialization is something that will come with the years anyway. By learning something new like mathematics, I try to constantly associate this with my work as a technical artist. This has been a real eye opener for me and I can only refer it to everyone.
This is one of the reasons why I made my gdc presentation about "how breakdance taught me to be a technical artist" As looking from a different perspective has taught me many things I was not aware of.
These 'aaaaaah' moments when seeing the connecting between 2 perspectives has been very motivating and inspiring for me. So if you lost motivation or need inspiration, it might be worth learning a new skill and find out what you can learn from it to become a better artist. You do not know, what you do not know. So taking small steps and experimentation are key for bringing clarity about how and why you are (not) doing things.
You might even learn more about yourself, which is always a good thing
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/07/health/views/07mind.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
As well as then on top limiting your mental growth by not getting out/exercising/socializing while limiting your focus to one area can effect your cognitive skills later and can even slow down progression.
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jar/2012/143595/
I would be very careful of telling people to lock themselves away with the reasoning they can always pick up their life later. The science is against you for one. I know It certainly hasn't done me any favors.
It's not a choice between :
(a) locking yourself away, 24/7, working on art
(b) spending an hour a day on art and the rest smoking blunts
It's about choices. You have an hour to spare. How do you spend it?
That's what it's about. Life is full of choices. The generally accepted 10,000 hours to become a master of something doesn't happen without putting in ... I think ... around 10,000 hours. Find those hours.
I absolutely agree. But option a) is what some people are advertising here. Which is the problem I have with it. My opinion is that it is wrong to promote that kind of work ethic to anyone. Especially the young'uns just getting in the game. A balance is what I've been suggesting all along.
I swear when I was a kid I could find those hours everywhere: on the lawn, under the couch, between my teeth...
You're ignoring two major factors:
1- An hour drinking (or playing videogames, or hanging out with friends, or whatever your poison is) is a hell of a lot easier than an hour productively studying art.
2- Not everybody who says they lack motivation or time is clearing their art schedule to go have fun. Many are staring at their blank canvas, anxious and angry and having a hard time actually productively leveraging their time.
Instead of recycling tired, well established advice, why not share your experience and suggest actual solutions to young artists' lifestyle problems? What changes did YOU make in your life to find time for art? What struggles did you have to overcome?
Feng zhu, who is very vocal about the need to commit a LOT of time to art, and sacrifice everything else in your life, repeatedly states in his videos that most artists should enroll in school, because he does not believe very many artists are capable of devoting as many hours as they should to fundamentals without structure. What do you believe?
This reminds me of exercise. I go 3x a week, for 45 minutes each. I am consistent though, and I have seen some good results. When people imply I live at the gym, when I know they watch more than 3 hours of TV a week (sometimes a day) it just gives me eye strain from rolling my eyes so hard.
The problem with this (very good question) is that my answer will not work for everyone else. I agree saying "just do it" is an oversimplification, but it is shorthand for "find whatever your individual circumstance is going to take to overcome the easy way out."
For me, with the gym, or 3d, I make myself do at least 5 minutes every day. Oftentimes this 5 minutes will turn into a full workout session on gym days, or an hour or two of texturing, but sometimes it actually only is 5 minutes of texturing, but that is still 5 minutes further along than if I did nothing. Sometimes bargaining with yourself is a worthwhile tactic.
Well obviously, but spreading information and seeing other viewpoints helps. And at the very least it gives young artists something to relate to, and is a lot more productive than the elitist, exclusionary 'go big or go home' attitude that it's really easy to fall into.
And:
Holy shit man, that's a really good tip. It fits with other tactics i've used and heard of, but I've never really seen it laid out as simply as that. It's actually what I'm doing this morning, but seeing it explained in that simple 5 minute rule is really great, and something I'm going to start doing in the future. Kindof a eureka moment for me, so thank you very much for sharing that!
I have about 5 projects (everything from making stuff to trying to learn new skills) I'm working on at the moment so I have a timer on my PC that I set for 20 minutes. I pick a task and work at it until the timer runs out - fun or not, it's a 20 minute minimum. At that point I can either continue (if I'm in the groove) or reset the timer and try a different task for awhile.
Because then, as Ben said, if nothing else at least that one project is 20 minutes further down the pipe.
It's amazing how after that first 20 minutes you can often go from not really interested to fully engaged.
Also, I've been meaning to say this for a while but there is no need to attack people for their lack of art posts because of their attitudes. I can understand that there is a reason for some people not to post here and that's probably because of the risk of others not judging their art objectively. Hell, I'd be afraid to post my stuff too if people already disliked me. Enough with the hate!
And...
Sorry, marks. You were too late
@Anuxinamooh: That's very interesting. The stuff I usually hear people say is that they do game art for the art and not so much for the game. The limitations are what attracts people usually(no need for 53 10240x10240 maps)
This is very true.
That's like going to art school and expecting a job simply because you have a degree.
unfortunately this is not inherently obvious to everyone. It's a big problem I had personally when first trying to get better at 2d. everyone just keeps saying put time into it, time time time. That's great, and true, but some time can be spent in more productive ways depending on what you are doing to progress. As for me, I really didn't understand the concept and just tried drawing and drawing and drawing in my sketchbook. It was shit, and honestly I don't think I really improved at all. After someone pointed out "hey you should probably be using reference or drawing from life or focusing on x" my progress improved exponentially... so personally I don't think it's enough to tell someone starting out to just spend more time on it. It is hugely beneficial to offer some 'practical' advice or direction even if it might seem completely obvious to you.
I think today I'm going to go to the beach with my boyfriend and learn how to surf, then go block out the rest of them shapez
"In 2d one of the ways to combat that problem of getting caught up in details is to paint with a large brush strokes, and never zoom in.
Maybe you could try blocking all your main things out quickly, to find some shapes / silhouettes you like when making things like vehicles etc or jumping from greyboxing to lighting in ue3 or crysis when your making enviros. Try and change up you usual workflow, and inject some of the things you enjoy earlier into your pipeline.
Or if you love details, and you simply gotta have them, then maybe look into modo and follow Snefer like a shadow and force him to reveal why he can make an insanely detailed environment / prop in so little time "
"What I want to say now is seen from a technical art perspective.
Every day I have been investing my energy in both research in computer graphics (programming, shaders, art, level design, ...) and even more time in researching knowledge like neuroscience, biology, psychology, ... For me this is a way to create new perspectives to reflect again on what I already know.
I am a huge believer in creating a solid foundation instead specialization as specialization is something that will come with the years anyway. By learning something new like mathematics, I try to constantly associate this with my work as a technical artist. This has been a real eye opener for me and I can only refer it to everyone.
These 'aaaaaah' moments when seeing the connecting between 2 perspectives has been very motivating and inspiring for me. So if you lost motivation or need inspiration, it might be worth learning a new skill and find out what you can learn from it to become a better artist. You do not know, what you do not know. So taking small steps and experimentation are key for bringing clarity about how and why you are (not) doing things. "
Hahah
Nah I think they're long gone and we're just motivating each other now.
Have a plan to differentiate yourself. Too many students assume all they need to land that job is reaching the next artistic level. There is nothing wrong with striving to become a masterful artist, but if you find yourself running with the pack it is time to re-evaluate your approach.
The cold hard truth is jobs don't just grow on trees, even for the exceptionally talented. There is no guarantee a position will be waiting for you after you improve. Instead put yourself in the shoes of an employer and ask what, if anything, makes you stand out. Might sound like a bleak outlook, but I've always found it to be great motivation to think outside the box and discover unique ways of making yourself valuable.