I am lost with the topology
The most part of character creation i have is the time to do proper topology.
My only work for now, is only high poly sculpting, the other part it's done by other people.
I tried to follow poly wiki for character topology, but i have no use for that. For me works a good video tutorial how to do that, than pictures which is already made a topology.
I want to learn how to do this, because it will be plus for me, so i can do that part too.
IS there a good workshop/tutorial of creating from high poly character to low poly, but i mostly want to focus for now is topology and then doing high poly transfer for high to low poly.
My only work for now, is only high poly sculpting, the other part it's done by other people.
I tried to follow poly wiki for character topology, but i have no use for that. For me works a good video tutorial how to do that, than pictures which is already made a topology.
I want to learn how to do this, because it will be plus for me, so i can do that part too.
IS there a good workshop/tutorial of creating from high poly character to low poly, but i mostly want to focus for now is topology and then doing high poly transfer for high to low poly.
Replies
https://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=zbrush+retopology+tutorial&oq=Zbrush+Retop&gs_l=igoogle.3.2.0l10.148433.150305.0.152482.12.11.0.1.1.0.191.1138.4j7.11.0...0.0...1ac.2GHdZsDoLtU
Also I hear 3DCoat has some nice retopo features.
https://www.google.com/search?q=3d+coat+retopology&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
3dsmax also has some tools for doing retopo.
https://www.google.com/search?q=3d+coat+retopology&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=tNJ&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&sclient=psy-ab&q=3ds+max+retopology+tutorial&oq=3dsmax+retop&gs_l=serp.3.2.0i10l4.0.0.1.667.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1c.hIDnwr6XOeI&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=5d1829d39c9d356e&biw=1666&bih=872
Also TopoGun was pretty hot for a while but I haven't used it outside of the beta that was released ages ago and super buggy.
http://www.topogun.com/
http://wiki.polycount.com/CategoryTopology
I also think the Zbrush - High Poly to Low Poly Workflow Youtube video does a good job of explaining it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTM1dP39y_0
The most problem i have is, to think how the character will move. Where to put edge loops, how some part of the body going to bend. Something like that.
http://3d-coat.com/retopology/
http://www.pixologic.com/zclassroom/homeroom/lesson/Topology/#topology-brush-accessories
I feel like a skill you need to learn in addition to retolpologizing, is disseminating information that is not in video form. Theres going to be SO much you need to learn that someone hasn't made a video tutorial for showing you step by step where to click. I think even more important than learning how to create low topology, it would be best to learn how to learn using the net. The internet is the most powerful learning tool out there, for everything. not just 3d arts.
Net is damn huge, i have looked for it, and i came across already done topology of complex characters. How i am suppose to learn this, but just starring at?
After all, i have damn too much work, working 18 hours a day, and instead you guys help me to find good tutorials for it, i am gonna learn. You instead tell me to search on the internet. Is that's how people learn from here?
If I can't find a video tutorial on something I'm trying to figure out, honestly, it frustrates me.
I even want video tutorials included with my apps. Modo does a decent job with this but I'd like them to do a LOT more.
At any rate, I think one SHOULD be able to learn from any source but having a preference for video isn't a problem IMO...
quote I am referring to "How i am suppose to learn - -"
Yea, though I do love to check out videos instead especially with clean and coherent step by step instructions.
But I get what your saying.
Plus after viewing the videos they start making clones of the process or multi clones of the design.
If they would only change It up, let's say the sword and shield video tutorial (random selection), if they would instead make something else say armor pieces then that would be awesome, but no they go and make the same thing...
Granted they want to learn by mimicking but still get out of the box and be different, just saying. I would like to believe the author wishes to see what they can do with what is being taught not make the same thing he's making, you have the knowledge now make something original with the techniques.
To be honest after some of the postings of the swords and shields I didn't see anything else with that style.
Should be enough information out there to help anyone with topology if not practice using your own body in a mirror and see what works then add geometry in your application of choice and learn by yourself?
Ancient Pigs tutorial, taken from the Polycount wiki, should give you a clearer of how it should all work. From there, it's just a matter of grabbing yourself some model references and giving it a go yourself. Post your attempt on the forum and we'll be able to help you out from there.
http://www.pig-brain.com/tutorials/tut02-01/
Here is some info about why.
http://wiki.polycount.com/CategoryTopology#Principles_of_Topology
This tutorial has some good animated examples of lowpoly models.
http://www.pig-brain.com/tutorials/tut02-01/
That's one of the links on the wiki page, there are a few other good links there worth checking out.
Hippydrome has some explanation here about topology, plus great images. His topology is for film, but the same principles apply for lower polygon models.
http://www.hippydrome.com/Skeleton.html
The best way to learn about animation topology is to build some lowpoly meshes, and rig them for animation. You'll see exactly why things work or don't work.
Also, post your work in Pimping&Previews. Sometimes it helps to get other people's eyes on your work, help you see what could be improved.
(oops, yeah what Jackablade says. Great minds, great minds.)
For example, everyone links to the Joan of Arc tutorial for character modeling. Doesn't everyone build Joan as they read the tutorial? So it's the same thing, really. You imitate, you learn, you take it your own way...
Well.. can't say for everyone but whenever I did character tutorials I usually used completely different concept art so I could see where exactly I go wrong, because even when mimicking you can go wrong when you don't understand the "why" along with the "how".
Yes i know this links, but there nothing much help of me, just of how important topology is for rigging and animation, yea i know that, but i don't know, why that edge loop is there, how do you know that he will move like this or dunno how to explain myself.
My way to learn is best to watch and see, why do you put edge loops there, when do you put. Like someone told, i want first to mimic things, so i can better understand
There is tutorials from DT, but the guys who made tutorials, are tend to skip parts or don't even finish the tutorials. There are videos where from high poly they do the low poly part, and also do the topology, but only for one part of the body, like head, where is rest of the body?
I found some tutorials from CGSociety, from Katon and from RydanWorkshops about making game characters, do you guys know more about this tutorials, does they explain of topology? If so, i would like to attend both of them.
My work is only high poly sculpting in Zbrush,( i can't show it,dunno if i ever will be able to show something) i even have monsters like those from Diablo 3, i mean very very complex, but the rest of the part of the making of the characters do others guys. I want to learn, how to make for myself and plus i have more experience.
I don't even know other users who said, that they want to learn from videos. I have suggest to ask for help, because this forum is for game professionals, But i think i am not welcomed here at all
You are welcome here! Everyone was a beginner at some point.
You will just have to experiment and practice to understand good topology.
To be honest, I don't even think video tutorials are going to be able break that down for you any more than the resources already provided would. More often than not they're not going to explain why they are modeling the way they are modeling, and like anything else it's going to vary from artist to artist.
Your best bet might be in learning how to rig and weight characters first, even if you're using pre-made/downloaded characters and rig guides. By paying attention to how an area deforms, you'll begin to have a better feel for why edges are placed where they are, where extra edges might help and where the topology might just be interfering with your goals. It's not going to be as easy as a a-b-c video (it never was for the people trying to teach it) and it will take some time, but you will get the experience and that is precisely what you need in order to develop a good gut-level understanding for this sort of thing.
As a bonus, I think having that also begins to open up possibilities with learning as you can then begin to assimilate information from articles and images more quickly than having to wait through a video.
Oh, for rigging, do i need to do scripting? and which app should i get for that?
As far as I know or understand rigging you can't alter the mesh after you've placed your skinning modifier, I was using 3Ds MAX but many suggest MAYA for rigging/animations.
Someone more knowledgeable that is already a rigging/skinning/animation artist might come in and speak more about that though.
What your asking for is something that is governed by context, meaning that there really aren't many absolutes. The only way you are going to learn all the little nuances to making proper topology, is by getting in there and banging away at it. Things will start to click and it`ll get easier and easier- The frustrating part is, the more you know- the more you realize you don`t know. It's a vast sea of knowledge your standing on the edge of :P
And no scripting needed for rigging.
PS. videos are awesome. hands down best way to learn. They just aren't always abundant, or of the best quality.
You can, you just need to re-weight the new vertices. In fact, this is a god way to learn what works... rig the mesh, animate a couple simple poses, then add/remove edge loops and adjust their positions.
If you are using envelopes (3ds Max, Skin modifier) then any new topology you make will automatically get the nearest envelope weighting.
I need better tutorials for this. To understand what they put edge lops there.
I will tell that i have huge understanding of human/animal anatomy, but this technical stuff of re topology high poly models is freaking me out.
Big smile! This is good to know I always thought that wouldn't be the case, so glad I was wrong. I just dabble into It for fun from time to time so glad to know this for the future.
it's not a tutorial or anything, but hopefully this might help you a little.
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1570047&postcount=2
I don't really benefit from watching someone do it prefect and then do what they did step by step, I learn through the experimentation because I learn why something works and what doesn't, instead of just learning what someone thinks is the best way and not knowing why.
It seem like your style is "please someone else record themselves doing it prefect so I can copy" and by doing that you miss out on all of the actual experience you get by experimenting. Honestly it's the difference between being a patriot and being good at what you do.
To learn topology you really don't need anything more than a few still images suggesting how edges should flow. The hippydrome.com examples are great because they show you three things.
- Edge flow
- Joint placement
- Vertex weighting
Plus it shows you the joints in action so you see how it all goes together.Still what you don't see (and it's best to do on your own) are the results from bad topology.
You should take it in stages.
By this I mean work on one area, elbow, knee or finger, because they only bend on one axis. Because the joints are similar what works on an elbow will often work on the knees ect...
Then move onto something new like the wrists, ankles, and neck. Learn about twist bones and the candy wrapper effect.
Then move onto the butt and crotch.
Then move onto the shoulders.
The hardest part so far has been learning topology, flow lines, and *how* to build an organic model. I still dont have it down exactly, but I just watched a ton of videos (and agree they are best) and also looked at alot of wireframed stills to "copy" the flow lines... that actually helps alot. This past weekend I built my first two base meshes... the male wasnt so hard, but the female was challenging.
There's a ton to learn, but what others say is true... the only way to honestly learn it is to keep practicing. My first model was HORRID lol... there were no flow lines, it was so blocky and straight. The models I built this weekend were much much better... I'm honestly proud of myself.
My next challenge is faces/heads, those seem much harder to get flow lines right, but I think I'm getting it down.
One problem I have, and I'm willing to bet the OP has the same issue... You start this process, and you learn step by step starting almost always with modeling. The problem here, is I could model something that looks fairly ok without the use of good topology or flow... but I could never animate it. I still to this day havent even touched animating or rigging, so I honestly have no idea how my models will work, or what I need to plan for.
Looking at the pictures above by Mark_Dygert, I can tell you that the knee's I've built do not even have "joints". The tutorials I've watched just use edge loops, so I just have a top and bottom loop for the knee cap, using the vert in the center to give the knee cap a "flow" to it.. on my smoothed model it looks like a knee, but I dont know that it will animate.
It's definitely difficult! I wish I knew someone that was great at this so I could just sit behind them and watch them work haha.
OP, read some of this... just decide that you're going to sit and focus, these are great! Sometimes video's just dont cover it all... use everything you can.
But how to know something to do alone, when you have no idea how to do? Yea i am guy that i learn better when i see something, someone to tell me, why he doing that, and why he doing in that way.
Maybe i am stupid. But i see guys putting edge loops in fingers, palm, shoulders, and the arm bend really in really realist way. But i see there combines of triangles and quads, around the palm, shoulders. But, i heard that everything needs to be in quads, why then they use tris? And when to use tris? What area?
See i have no idea of all of this, i will know when someone going to show me why and how?
i feel like an alien, that everything of this damn topology is like strange creature.
Today you have access to google and megabytes / sec of bandwidth. Every possible bit of knowledge you need to get to intermediate level has been covered multiple times and it's utterly easy to find.
People who can't get by on their own just don't deserve to be in this industry. Period.
Why do you need to sit over someones shoulder and watch them experiment, Just go do it, try something fail and find a way to make it better.
Seriously make a joint, give it some bones, skin it and see what happens when you change it. There won't always be a tutorial for everything and the people who end up working in the industry are the people who can figure out how to make things work.
You have been lost in this whiny, hopeless, state, waiting for someone else to come along and pour the knowledge into your head and you could have been well on your way to figuring these things out and understanding them.
Not only professionals. You are more then welcome here sir you just have to ask the right questions.
And what dt tutorial are you referring to?
Maybe this is a way i have learned. When i was learning anatomy, i only saw improvement when i was watching tutorials. No books or already drawn character help me.
I wanted to see how actually people draw character, with details. I have tried every book that's everyone told me are good. But i couldn't learn and do something, because there was already made heads, body, hands, skeleton, muscles. But i couldn't do, how to start and how to go after that.
It's better for me to see how other people do, and when they do something they usually tell why they are doing that, why they put edge loops/rings etc.
When i was learning anatomy, everything they draw was telling why they do that, how the muscle work etc.
So when should i rig and skin the model? If doesn't work right, when i bend something, how can i put edge loop and ring after that? And to try that later?
Should i do that when i do the retopo from the high poly model or? Sorry i am way to confused, no idea how to explain.
Back in the days when the video tutorials were so expensive and near impossible to find. The only stuff available to me were books and stuff like Maya Tutorial Website (all in text and no videos.) I managed to read all that to understand the basics of how things work in maya. (And I am talking about the time when Zbrush wasnt even invented.
Althrough I never took CG seriously until 2 years ago and missed out on alot of stuff, I managed to learn whatever I could by reading the books. Now I have both, books and video tutorials to learn / review for my 2d and 3d arts.
For starters you need to motivate yourself to learn the basics of whichever tools you choose to use in your workflow. After that come the anatomy and topology / topology.
The simple way to learn the Anatomy is to buy any anatomy book and start drawing them on piece of paper using that book as a reference.
The simple way to learn the Topology is to look at other artists' pieces and their wire frames. You look for the major quad loops around the eyes, nose, mouth, chest, shoulders, ears, etc.
Today you have tutorials that are on youtube so that you can fine tune your skills, you have things like PC wiki that will also help you. So use whatever you like to get started.
All I see and I think it drove other members to a point where they made you feel like you werent welcome here is that you are just talking and not doing.
EDIT: Video tutorials to me are like a quick review if I am too lazy to reach out for the books. I didnt learn much from the videos that were on Youtube, Digital Tutors or Eat 3d.
Searching and retaining info
With a well documented text tutorial if you forget a step or a setting you can quickly search for words and get the info you need. With video, especially youtube you have to load it up, sit through ads, find the info in the video and then you can move on. It's a pain in the ass when you just need to know did they use .5 or .005.
I can skim a paragraph and know mostly what it says in a few seconds, with video if you jump around you don't know if you miss something important so you sit through the whole thing.
Too easy to make confusing mistakes
The most frustrating thing about video tutorials is that people suck at making tutorials. If someone doesn't think about their process and they skip a step or have to play with settings it makes it even harder to get back to the good info. "I found the part but was that the bad settings that screwed everything up? I'll have to watch"
To make a good tutorial either way, you take the same steps and prepare properly, it helps iron out the kinks in your process and make it as short and smooth as possible.
With videos people often hit record and start jabbering incoherently.
They don't take the time to think about what they are going to say and they waste a lot of time umm'ing and ahh'ing while they fudge around with settings sometimes doing it wrong a few times before they get it right or back tracking because they forgot a step. Thank you for taking 20min longer than it should have and being crazy confusing. At least in text they had to think about their steps thoughtfully and hopefully streamline and improve them, something they should have done before hitting record.
Personal Experience
Personally I came to dislike video tutorials when I was learning to use PuppetShop. All of their documentation was in video format but there wasn't any voice over it was all text overlaid on the screen, sometimes paragraphs that disappeared too quickly. With text on the screen and no VO, you had to watch and read you couldn't just listen.
Video documenting a product made it really hard to learn what things did. Instead of bringing up a text help file punching in "IK" and getting all the info I needed on how the IK system worked, what the buttons looked like ect... I had to watch 3-4 videos that where an hour a piece and covered a bunch of crap a long with the IK system. I ended up taking notes and writing my own mini-tutorials just so I didn't have to waste hours and hours again if I wanted to get back to specific info...
Old school asshole...
There is also a dickhead part of me that says those who like videos like having stories read to them (preschool style) and can't be bothered to read and learn independently, it has to be spoon fed or it won't work. I'm totally picking up that vibe from the original poster and from just about anyone else who asks for a tutorial, gets a link to a text based tutorial and then whines about it not being video. Take what you can get and be thankful! Being able to take in and distill information in more than one way is a pretty valuable skill to have.
But I try to keep that guy out of conversations like this but he peppers everything I write =P
What you're talking about are crappy video tutorials. I'm talking quality stuff like Eat3D, 3D Motive, and others. Those tutorials are solid, well paced, and professionally produced.
That said, text tutorials have their place too. I'm not against them, I just prefer video. It's not 1990 anymore. :P
It's easier to make a bad video tutorial than it is to make a bad text tutorial. Doing a text tutorial forces you to think about your process and document it, often improving it. The same is true for a good video tutorial, but its too easy for someone to just hit record and eat up hours of your time.
There are mountains of bad video tutorials floating around making it hard to find good ones. Sure you can pay through the nose for learning but they don't always cover everything you want to know or what you want to know is only a tiny sliver of what is in the video and you don't want to pay for the whole thing.
Also a good text tutorial will be covered in graphic examples and probably have videos for parts that actually need to be explained in video. A good text tutorial won't be like reading a medical manual from the 1700's where they didn't use graphics and they used ancient English to describe everything.
BTW I think it is really important for artists to be able to read and envision things, it helps with creativity and helps focus artistic vision... but I'm getting distracted...
Take this for example:
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1565919#post1565919
A great example of text tutorial that is more graphic than text. Exactly what you need, none of the fluff. It would have been helpful if the text wasn't embedded in the image but that's fine its easy enough to sift through. It took me all of a min to understand everything here. This I can come back to and find what I need very quickly even without searching the text. If it was a video it wouldn't be so easy.
I can also look at this and know in a few seconds if it has something worth looking at, with a video tutorial it's not so easy to make a snap decision about.
I find problems all the days, and i must solve them without help, i don't have any guide or tutorial. I'm forced to use the brain :S. Each project is different, and it may have some difficulties or not.
Like with maths, you CAN'T depend of: "how to resolve these types of problems". Because when you get out of those common problems and you find out you are with another one and unknown... too bad. You must have what a technical artist have, enough mind to find out the solution asap.
Topologies are no meant to be memorized, or learnt... you must understand them, their use, and how to work with polygons properly with wit. Each model, each design may have dozens of different topologies, and you must figure out which one is the most suitable for mapping, rigging, etc. And that, is something you will never learn in a video or a tutorial. If you focus in "humans" only, maybe.
"Be water, my friend"
For videos tutorials, i can't agreed more, everything you said is in place. I have learned Zbrush from Ryan and Cesar Dacol Jr, both are so awesome teacher, i thought i will never bee able to learn how to sculpt in Zbrush, and to think as a traditional sculptor.
For drawing and human/anatomy study i have private class from my friend, because i don't have art schools here.
But for topology i have no idea how to learn, All my models are damn complex, they have more than 2 legs, double heads, wings, have some mutant creatures and most of them are heavy armored.
So the best way to learn this is from rigging and skinning. Yea that's cool, i can do that, no matter how damn it is.
But lets say i made mistake of putting edge loops in wrong place, but the character is rigged and skinned, Can i make somehow back a bit or whatever is called to put edge loop in right place and test how would bend, move or deform the character?
So if everything wen good, should i pose the character, you know, to give him a life with rigging, or should i use transpose in Zbrush with the rigs?
In the time you've spent fretting about it, you could have learned all that you need to know first hand.
At this point I believe that nothing will help you unless you post something.