yea....most of the advice in this thread is spot on from people who know what they are talking about. Its probably downer advice but its all pretty true.
Every single person with a rock solid portfolio that I know is working right now, after studio closures and almost every job in Vancouver being contract work of 3-9 months at all the studios here.
anyone with a mediocre portfolio who was laid off, usually didn't do anything to improve it and is no longer in the industry really.
its unfortunate but these days its just more competitive than ever, but I'll stress again, if you have an awesome portfolio there is a 80-90% chance you will be working. if you are not, keep working on your portfolio until you are.
Relocating to a hub is a really good idea if you can, Montreal is booming. Both me and another bud from Relic are moving there in a month or so to work at Ubisoft, simply because that's where the industry is doing well in Canada for now (and its a fucking awesome city!), so its a way to future proof ourselves (which means Relic will be soon looking for 2 enviro artists by the way!).
Right now isnt too bad a time to be graduating at all if you buckle down and work on your portfolio. there is a bunch of people on polycount who just got hired at studios before graduating, bioware and crytek i believe. it just comes down to what you can show you do, how much extra effort you put in and things you are willing to sacrifice. I went the self taught route to save myself some cash but it was hard and I wish I had advice like people are saying here told to me back when i was learning.
it's always a bad time to graduate
be positive, work on your folio, be ready to relocate (even to mars if you have to!). At this point your main goal should be getting into the industry, not staying in one spot (if that's your goal, you might want to forget about working in games, unless you happen to be from Montreal or Austin).
If you're one of the "I don't wanna move" types, then getting into the industry will be very hard. However, nothing stops you to move back to where you came from once you've established a career - it's much easier then. Assuming you even want to go back at this point.
Montreal is booming, but they are very selective.. they want top notch talent. We really need more top talent Env artists here in the city.
If your portfolio is strong, you will find a job in time. Chr art is usually a bit harder to go into, mainly because there are less of them on projects.
The problem to me is not how much people are on the market right now. It's how few good people there is to hire. Studios have a lot of applicants but a shitload of them are just not to the level.
Most UK studios are struggling to find talent in UK.
Yeah, for an "entry level" job they all want someone with 5-7 years exp working on AAA titles, with a couple of shipped games under their belt, oh, and you need to know a laundry list of software.
Yeah, for an "entry level" job they all want someone with 5-7 years exp working on AAA titles, with a couple of shipped games under their belt, oh, and you need to know a laundry list of software.
Or not...it has been said a thousand time, the quality of the portoflio is the key.
Compagnies will be more than happy to hire people without experience but with a portfolio that shows quality work.
Yeah, for an "entry level" job they all want someone with 5-7 years exp working on AAA titles, with a couple of shipped games under their belt, oh, and you need to know a laundry list of software.
Any studio that is confident you can do the job will happily hire you knowing you'll produce professional quality work and they can pay you a lower salary because you don't have work experience.
What they will not do is hire a student with below average work that is going to end up burdening their other artists as they pay you for work that other people will end up having to fix or completely redo later.
Hey guys, I think yesterday I made a mistake of not humbling myself enough given my position still at uni. Although I didn't intend this thread to be about individuals like about myself I made a dogs dinner of explaining what I was talking about in my first post and this thread has lingered.
So genuine apologies for being off the mark. For me the frustration lies in that I have to do 3 years at uni and so much of it has been filled with report writing which is time I could have spent improving my actual practical skills and of course its gutting when people tell you the past 3 years have been in vein "your finished before you started", especially if you worked hard for the best grades while so many people kind of just went there to play games, not hand work in or hardly show up while your there in the wee hours of the morning writing reports lol.
But anyway the point is I don't like to step out of line, I wouldn't have any pride in the idea of being considered arrogant or impatient, many of you are the experts for a very good reason.
I am graduating in about 5 months and I can't wait. From my view I feel the industry is absolutely blowing up right now. Lots of studios out there are hiring...I get emails everyday from alerts I have setup through facebook, linkedin, and other sites.
Not to mention Indie games, a few people can make a game that can possibly get huge...I love that I am graduating at this time.
I guess it depends on why you do this and how you derive enjoyment from it. Personally this started as a hobby and if I had to I would turn it back into a hobby. I might leave because I suck and can't land a job or I just think its not enjoyable any more and doing this in my spare time again would give me back that creative freedom that so often gets taken from little cogs.
I like doing this and it doesn't matter if I do something else to pay the bills or I work at this full time I'm still going to enjoy it. If you wouldn't do this just for the sheer enjoyment do you really want to make a career out of it? Because we have enough slackers applying who think this is the only career path that will take them in (read these guys don't get hired).
I see people get pretty pent up about finding a job on or before graduation and really the world isn't going to come crashing down because you aren't a rockstar on day 1 of being dumped into society. Normally that take some work.
A lot of schools rubber stamp students so they keep the money flowing and as a result the ones that really want in, put in the required amount of work to get in. So yea school might say you're awesome but you have to take that with a grain of salt. It's a bit like you're mom telling you finger paintings are better than Monet.
The best time to look for a job is while you have one.
If you don't have an industry job by (insert date here) then fall back on (insert menial labor here) until you can polish up your approach and get in. Either way if you make it in or you don't you should never stop pushing yourself to do better.
The idea that the day you graduate your entire life is a failure just because you didn't land that super hard to land job is total nonsense. Most people aren't handed things right out of college just because they went. Most people have to work really hard to get where they want.
Like everyone has said. It is always a bad time to graduate lol. Was the same when I graduated in 2005. I landed a job quick just by luck. Company folded was out of work again. Found another one. All you have to do really is eat, sleep, play 3d/2d/Art if it is your passion. If it is not your passion. Then yes it is a bad time to graduate b/c there are a TON of people that do want the same jobs you want maybe more than you do (not saying you don't want it etc.). You just need to really want it. "NEVER GIVE UP... NEVER SURRENDER!"
Whether or not its a bad time to graduate (which it is, since the entire global economy is in the pits), you really have no option but to work. Worrying about if its bad or not does nothing since the fact that you still have to work doesnt change.
Work your butt off or get any job you can till you can migrate into your "dream job".
1997 was the worst time to graduate as I then stopped getting a student grant and had to find a job:) seriously though its a bit cutthroat out there, you have to keep on practicing then evaluating how good your work is all the time. I must have worked 14 hours a day for a few years just to get a job as a junior artist.
I arrogantly thought I was really good and didn't have sufficient experience to realize that my work was adequate at best.
Even now I see a shit load of quality new artists out there and it just gets no easier.
just got to dig your heels in and work hard.no point getting annoyed
I guess it depends on why you do this and how you derive enjoyment from it. Personally this started as a hobby and if I had to I would turn it back into a hobby. I might leave because I suck and can't land a job or I just think its not enjoyable any more and doing this in my spare time again would give me back that creative freedom that so often gets taken from little cogs.
I like doing this and it doesn't matter if I do something else to pay the bills or I work at this full time I'm still going to enjoy it. If you wouldn't do this just for the sheer enjoyment do you really want to make a career out of it? Because we have enough slackers applying who think this is the only career path that will take them in (read these guys don't get hired).
I see people get pretty pent up about finding a job on or before graduation and really the world isn't going to come crashing down because you aren't a rockstar on day 1 of being dumped into society. Normally that take some work.
A lot of schools rubber stamp students so they keep the money flowing and as a result the ones that really want in, put in the required amount of work to get in. So yea school might say you're awesome but you have to take that with a grain of salt. It's a bit like you're mom telling you finger paintings are better than Monet.
The best time to look for a job is while you have one.
If you don't have an industry job by (insert date here) then fall back on (insert menial labor here) until you can polish up your approach and get in. Either way if you make it in or you don't you should never stop pushing yourself to do better.
The idea that the day you graduate your entire life is a failure just because you didn't land that super hard to land job is total nonsense. Most people aren't handed things right out of college just because they went. Most people have to work really hard to get where they want.
Thanks Mark for posting that, it was a nice way to put things into perspective. As a soon to be graduate myself I have my moments of brief panic.
As for the original poster, I don't know if it is any consolation but your not the only one in this situation so you may or may not find comfort in that. Also, the only thing I could recommend is getting your portfolio out there and most importantly get feedback. Its what I try and do now, even though I sometimes worry about my work. I dont know what type of program you attended, but mine was only a two year one, so if you have been going at it for about four years now, I am sure you will be fine.
I guess it depends on why you do this and how you derive enjoyment from it. Personally this started as a hobby and if I had to I would turn it back into a hobby. I might leave because I suck and can't land a job or I just think its not enjoyable any more and doing this in my spare time again would give me back that creative freedom that so often gets taken from little cogs.
I like doing this and it doesn't matter if I do something else to pay the bills or I work at this full time I'm still going to enjoy it. If you wouldn't do this just for the sheer enjoyment do you really want to make a career out of it? Because we have enough slackers applying who think this is the only career path that will take them in (read these guys don't get hired).
I see people get pretty pent up about finding a job on or before graduation and really the world isn't going to come crashing down because you aren't a rockstar on day 1 of being dumped into society. Normally that take some work.
A lot of schools rubber stamp students so they keep the money flowing and as a result the ones that really want in, put in the required amount of work to get in. So yea school might say you're awesome but you have to take that with a grain of salt. It's a bit like you're mom telling you finger paintings are better than Monet.
The best time to look for a job is while you have one.
If you don't have an industry job by (insert date here) then fall back on (insert menial labor here) until you can polish up your approach and get in. Either way if you make it in or you don't you should never stop pushing yourself to do better.
The idea that the day you graduate your entire life is a failure just because you didn't land that super hard to land job is total nonsense. Most people aren't handed things right out of college just because they went. Most people have to work really hard to get where they want.
I second this. The OP's original sentiments seem to stem from people graduating those game art schools. I've seen this far too much where I went too. You just have to keep at it.
I myself got critiqued by PC before I graduated and it helped. Shortly after I did more art and updated my site. Within a month I started working and a year and half later I shipped my first game.
But that's what they're all afraid of. It's what I'm afraid of. You'd be happy to have this as a hobby, which is the best thing ever. What grads want is for gamedev to be their day job, and playing games to be their hobby, I know that's definitely all I did while doing menial jobs for 3 years.
I'm no labour supporter but it was a labour MP that raised a question to the chancellor "why is there no tax breaks for games development but tax breaks for film makers?" He was very ignorant with his response saying "you cannot have everything when we have a deficit this big". Normally I would support anything to do with debt reduction but on this case I see it as just a case of Etonian's probably never had much interest in computer games and therefore just pass it off as one of those "soft subjects" even though it was a computer game that was the biggest selling media product of all time.
If all biggest selling games were made in the UK surely it would be good for our economy on both jobs and business. But why would developers bother doing that while there are little incentives?
I actually feel like now is a pretty decent time to be graduating. I'm in my last 2.5 months of college before I graduate. I've been trying to network like hell this last year, I've become more active here, and I post work when I can. I'm from the Detroit area...and if you know anything about that area the Game Dev scene is just starting to grow. Yet I'd be willing to relocate in a heart beat.
I'm focusing on getting my portfolio up and running, then I'll start applying for jobs within the next few months...or this month if I can kick my butt into gear fast enough.
What I'm trying to say is...and I'm sure many others have too. Don't worry about when you graduate, just worry about making sure you are ready.
Yep I was going to post the TAX break news in this thread. It's a great time to be graduating. Just don't expect a job right away (I was offered a job while at Uni but it fell through a few months later after funding was cut, got a job which I had for 4.5 years a year later). Work like hell on your portfolio and stay positive for the next year. By then, maybe the tax stuff will have come into effect and studios will start ramping up. But look to get into the industry through the smaller mobile or browser based gaming studios, as that is a growing sector and you will learn a lot in a small team.
But that's what they're all afraid of. It's what I'm afraid of. You'd be happy to have this as a hobby, which is the best thing ever. What grads want is for gamedev to be their day job, and playing games to be their hobby, I know that's definitely all I did while doing menial jobs for 3 years.
Well I had a Creative Director who would ask a question in an interview.
"Are you a gamer who wants to develop games, or a developer who likes to work on games?"
He was asking about priorities. He didn't want gamers because the #1 thing in their life was playing games not developing or refining the skills he needed them to have. He had a pretty negative view of gamers in general which was kind of weird but some of his bias made sense.
According to my old Creative Director...
Gamers would gladly spend the weekend blazing through the latest release but would crawl in blurry eyed and zombified. In between recapping their adventures to anyone who will listen, they manage to squeeze out some work until the bell rings and they get to scoot on home and get their fix. Work replaces school and the AD/CD are just baby sitters dragging them to do things they don't want to do, being a roadblock to the thing they really want. He felt they could have that anywhere else but he didn't want to deal with it.
I personally think that point of view is mildly offensive and turned him off to some awesome talent. I think developers need to balance things, be plugged into the latest trends and methods but balance it.
8, 8, 8.
Your boss and your body demand 8hrs each that leaves you 8 hrs to play games or whatever. If you don't have a job you should still spend 8hrs working on the skills that will land you one. Not having a job doesn't mean you have 2hrs to sleep and 22hrs to game while your portfolio handles itself.
Honestly if someone is looking to break in and they spend more time playing games than they do developing, then there shouldn't be much question as to why they have a hard time finding a job.
No glory, all RSI.
When you get in, there is a REALLY good chance you're going to be doing some unpleasant tasks that aren't pushing you artistically. Probably on some title you don't want to talk about. At that point you realize that this is a job like a lot of other jobs out there and to get the job with the creative freedom and flexibility, you thought you where getting, well that is going to take a lot more work. Not to mention working in the industry often means worse hours without compensation...
If gaming is what you love
Be an insurance adjuster, accountant, sell real estate, do some job with predictable hours, internet access and a lax boss. And just do you're time and go gaming when you can. It's pretty much that way in or out of the industry.
If you can't get in, don't be too heart broken and don't forget to do what you love, no matter where you work. You know that old saying "you're only a failure if you fail to try". Well the same is true for artist. You're only a failure as an artist if you fail to produce works of art. Where you work doesn't necessarily need to be the driving factor in making awesome stuff, but a love of making awesome stuff will drive you to some great jobs.
Well I had a Creative Director who would ask a question in an interview.
"Are you a gamer who wants to develop games, or a developer who likes to work on games?"
He was asking about priorities. He didn't want gamers because the #1 thing in their life was playing games not developing or refining the skills he needed them to have. He had a pretty negative view of gamers in general which was kind of weird but some of his bias made sense.
According to my old Creative Director...
Gamers would gladly spend the weekend blazing through the latest release but would crawl in blurry eyed and zombified. In between recapping their adventures to anyone who will listen, they manage to squeeze out some work until the bell rings and they get to scoot on home and get their fix. Work replaces school and the AD/CD are just baby sitters dragging them to do things they don't want to do, being a roadblock to the thing they really want. He felt they could have that anywhere else but he didn't want to deal with it.
I personally think that point of view is mildly offensive and turned him off to some awesome talent. I think developers need to balance things, be plugged into the latest trends and methods but balance it.
8, 8, 8.
Your boss and your body demand 8hrs each that leaves you 8 hrs to play games or whatever. If you don't have a job you should still spend 8hrs working on the skills that will land you one. Not having a job doesn't mean you have 2hrs to sleep and 22hrs to game while your portfolio handles itself.
Honestly if someone is looking to break in and they spend more time playing games than they do developing, then there shouldn't be much question as to why they have a hard time finding a job.
No glory, all RSI.
When you get in, there is a REALLY good chance you're going to be doing some unpleasant tasks that aren't pushing you artistically. Probably on some title you don't want to talk about. At that point you realize that this is a job like a lot of other jobs out there and to get the job with the creative freedom and flexibility, you thought you where getting, well that is going to take a lot more work. Not to mention working in the industry often means worse hours without compensation...
If gaming is what you love
Be an insurance adjuster, accountant, sell real estate, do some job with predictable hours, internet access and a lax boss. And just do you're time and go gaming when you can. It's pretty much that way in or out of the industry.
If you can't get in, don't be too heart broken and don't forget to do what you love, no matter where you work. You know that old saying "you're only a failure if you fail to try". Well the same is true for artist. You're only a failure as an artist if you fail to produce works of art. Where you work doesn't necessarily need to be the driving factor in making awesome stuff, but a love of making awesome stuff will drive you to some great jobs.
Just some visuals that Feng Zhu explains in his two latest videos, that reinforce your point of view.
@Mark - your previous Creative Director clearly never had to commute to work. In my first job, I couldn't afford to live in central London, so like millions of other people, I commuted in. I left the house at 5:30am, and would get back around 9:30pm. This gave me about enough time to eat, shower, then get some sleep ready for the next day.
The weekend however was when shit got done. It amazes me that I ever managed to find the time to do as much hobby work as I did. It's that hobby work and experience that has landed me better work since
I don't find the time to do that anymore and it actually really bugs me that I'm nowhere near as productive even though I now have umpteen hours of free time a week. I blame it on having to live with the other half.
He explains what you talk about, and the creative process vs design. Very useful stuff.
Well there ya go, don't bother reading my wall o text just watch and listen to a master, ha! I thought for the majority of that talk he was going to suggest playing games to build your visual library. But I'm glad to hear his views on reading and getting out and experiencing the world. I think that's pretty critical to recharge the creative energy and pull in great ref.
@Mark - your previous Creative Director clearly never had to commute to work. In my first job, I couldn't afford to live in central London, so like millions of other people, I commuted in. I left the house at 5:30am, and would get back around 9:30pm. This gave me about enough time to eat, shower, then get some sleep ready for the next day.
That's a pretty hellish commute I wouldn't want to live like that for long and since it's my life and my time that was being eaten up, I would find a way to shorten it, live by work or work by where I live. If everyone in the area commutes like that its poor urban planning and I'd look into other areas, spending that much time commuting is suicide. But there might be somethings you can do while commuting that could be considered creative or at least build your visual library like Feng points out.
The core point is, whatever free time you have if you're spending it playing games instead of working on your portfolio then you probably aren't going to get too many offers. Portfolios don't build themselves.
The commute was hell and I was towards the more extrme end - but it's normal if you work in London to have a commute into the city that takes upwards of an hour. You can't work on the trains, because they are simply far too overcrowded, and there is no other reasonable way into the city. You can't also move closer, because it's simply too expensive (yes, it's worse than the extra ~$150 a week on public transport!).
It's less "poor urban planning" and more "London is the center of the world for too much business"; between three and four million people travel into and out of an area a few square miles across every working day.
Ahh yea London and Europe in general that makes sense... London in general has a lot of people from all over the world who want to live there and they aren't very poor...
In the states if we don't like how the urban planning is going we just move a few miles and scratch out a new business park, a few housing developments and a few shopping centers.
In the part of the country where I live, the Northwest, we also don't mind knocking down entire city blocks, most of the older buildings here, are built in the 70's and are horrible eyesores to a lot of people. Anything older either burned down, was regraded or bulldozed for the freeway. Almost all of it was too recently built at the time it was torn down to have any historical significance, and so we just keep knocking down last decades trashy buildings... Maybe things will calm down and clutter up when we've been around as long as London has, ha.
The cheapest rents on there are about £200 ($320 USD) per week for a one bedroom apartment. These are all 6+ miles away from the 'central london' area where people tend to work (EC1), where rent is in excess of £400 ($640 USD) per week.
I paid £40 per week to live where I did, but it cost about £115 per week just to travel, and I got to live somewhere that wasn't extremely dodgy. My take-home pay was around £300 per week, so you can see where I'm coming from. This is more than double minimum wage at the time.
In the states if we don't like how the urban planning is going we just move a few miles and scratch out a new business park, a few housing developments and a few shopping centers.
There's a pretty good documentary on why that's not a very futureproof way to run things (though you probably concur)
I think I should say somethings about this situation, just because I am in it right now. I am full time working on my portfolio, just finished engineering school. Been working on my art for 2-3 years in all my freetime mostly. I have about a few thousand hours in and I do think as of my experience that art shouldn't be considered an easy thing. There is an elitism to it, you have to be above a good level to land that job, and don't expect to do any higher level work than you already have in your portfolio after you get in. If it is only creates, you won't be hired to do any more complicated than that. Sadly a lot of people never reach above a certain level, and sort of burnout as other talent skyrockets at a young age. I try to give some advice that helped me so far in the learning process:
-Find highly skilled artists personally and try to get to know as much about their thought process as you can. (I have my brother helping me out, who was trained in traditional art since his childhood.)
-Read books about lifedrawing, sculpting, painting. Do your research there is a lot out there.
-Do the hours. (Even talented people had to learn, they just learn faster.)
If you stay on the modelling and texturing field, you will not face anything technically too complicated, so never complain about that stuff if you are not scripting, programming code please.
This field is just as difficult as any other. The bad trend is because it is creative, and subjective a lot of times, people get through college not gaining the knowledge and skillset. Art is learned differently like analitical stuff, it is important to be aware about that.
Biggest advice I will give people coming out of uni is:
DON'T PANIC.
BE PATIENT.
When I graduated last year I was feeling good about my post uni prospects. I knew my final year work wasn't job worthy, but I also knew that I could pump out better stuff for my folio. I knew how hard it is to get a job, but I was one of the top of my class, so I was optimistic.
I took a few months off from game art to recuperate from the constant crunch madness of my final year. But after two or three months I just could not get back into the swing of things. I felt like the eyes of the world where on me, waiting. Job hunting was going nowhere, living at home was depressing, I had lost all motivation to do 3d. I ended up being in a massive slump for months, pretty much until Christmas. I produced next to no work!
What got me out of it, slowly, was alot of things. But one realisation I had was about my expectations leaving uni. I didn't expect to get a job off the bat, but I thought if I didn't have a job in a few months, I was a total failure. The reality is, this is bullshit. You have to work on your art and be patient. It's fine to spend a year after uni improving yourself to get a job in the industry, and you shouldn't feel like the world is watching.
I couldn't get as good as I wanted to be just pumping out shit quickly in the hopes it would get me a job. I had to take it slow and continue my education where it left off. Getting a part time job or living at home is a shitty part of this deal, but you can't let it get you down. Don't be afraid to apply to 3d jobs outside the games industry either!
Be patient and work on your art. If you relax, you will work more!
Yep I totally agree and its funny you bring that up. Just the other day I watched this: http://youtu.be/VOMWzjrRiBg
Also I live in a state with a lot of trees and the land has to be cleared before it can be used. Trees don't pay taxes, people who put up useless strip malls do... Well, they pay taxes for a while, then their business goes bust when society crawls to the next spot and we all stare at urban blight... yeah short sightedness!
But there are some rays of hope, "Urban farming" is starting take root in places around the country, where old suburban sprawl has been replaced by crops. In Wash St we have programs to help train and equip new local farmers. Places are starting to rely a bit more on local goods (at least around my area) and hopefully we will wake up and realize that not everyone needs to be congregated in one central spot to get things done. But that's all another thread for another time hahaha.
wow and you had to leave at 5:30am! But yeah London commuting on public transport sucks, I used to cycle in 10 miles everyday instead, it was cross between cruising around looking for races and chatting to people! Infact it used to take longer to walk from home to the station and then from the station to work than I did for the whole cycle trip.
Well I had a Creative Director who would ask a question in an interview.
"Are you a gamer who wants to develop games, or a developer who likes to work on games?"
He was asking about priorities. He didn't want gamers because the #1 thing in their life was playing games not developing or refining the skills he needed them to have. He had a pretty negative view of gamers in general which was kind of weird but some of his bias made sense.
According to my old Creative Director...
Gamers would gladly spend the weekend blazing through the latest release but would crawl in blurry eyed and zombified. In between recapping their adventures to anyone who will listen, they manage to squeeze out some work until the bell rings and they get to scoot on home and get their fix. Work replaces school and the AD/CD are just baby sitters dragging them to do things they don't want to do, being a roadblock to the thing they really want. He felt they could have that anywhere else but he didn't want to deal with it.
I personally think that point of view is mildly offensive and turned him off to some awesome talent. I think developers need to balance things, be plugged into the latest trends and methods but balance it.
8, 8, 8.
Your boss and your body demand 8hrs each that leaves you 8 hrs to play games or whatever. If you don't have a job you should still spend 8hrs working on the skills that will land you one. Not having a job doesn't mean you have 2hrs to sleep and 22hrs to game while your portfolio handles itself.
Honestly if someone is looking to break in and they spend more time playing games than they do developing, then there shouldn't be much question as to why they have a hard time finding a job.
No glory, all RSI.
When you get in, there is a REALLY good chance you're going to be doing some unpleasant tasks that aren't pushing you artistically. Probably on some title you don't want to talk about. At that point you realize that this is a job like a lot of other jobs out there and to get the job with the creative freedom and flexibility, you thought you where getting, well that is going to take a lot more work. Not to mention working in the industry often means worse hours without compensation...
If gaming is what you love
Be an insurance adjuster, accountant, sell real estate, do some job with predictable hours, internet access and a lax boss. And just do you're time and go gaming when you can. It's pretty much that way in or out of the industry.
If you can't get in, don't be too heart broken and don't forget to do what you love, no matter where you work. You know that old saying "you're only a failure if you fail to try". Well the same is true for artist. You're only a failure as an artist if you fail to produce works of art. Where you work doesn't necessarily need to be the driving factor in making awesome stuff, but a love of making awesome stuff will drive you to some great jobs.
Your posts are always gold Mark. I love how it started off sounding like a super shut down on the attitudes I was expressing, but turned into a well reasoned, common sense argument. There's no way I'm going to be an accountant, even if all I love is gaming. That 8 hours thing is my number one issue right now (first world problems ftw) it's astounding how easy it is to waste time, I swear I have more free time to me now that I did in my highschool years and I did so much more then! Always ready for a good 8 hours of work, and then whoa; time for bed, and I didn't even get to play games either!
That guy you mentioned sounds like somebody who'd be mad at film staff for watching movies.
Beyond that, keep consistently putting work out.. Add new stuff to your portfolio, ,apply to everything that seems to fit, even loosely, and make a good solid network of like minded friends both pro and not.
Be the guy that everyone would want to work with, both in competence and attitude.
Yep I totally agree and its funny you bring that up. Just the other day I watched this: http://youtu.be/VOMWzjrRiBg
Also I live in a state with a lot of trees and the land has to be cleared before it can be used. Trees don't pay taxes, people who put up useless strip malls do... Well, they pay taxes for a while, then their business goes bust when society crawls to the next spot and we all stare at urban blight... yeah short sightedness!
But there are some rays of hope, "Urban farming" is starting take root in places around the country, where old suburban sprawl has been replaced by crops. In Wash St we have programs to help train and equip new local farmers. Places are starting to rely a bit more on local goods (at least around my area) and hopefully we will wake up and realize that not everyone needs to be congregated in one central spot to get things done. But that's all another thread for another time hahaha.
yeah, we're about to derail
will watch that video - urban farming sounds great, like a more institutionalized version of guerrilla gardening.. and like a suburban version of skyscraper farms (which we don't really have yet, but boy would they make nice examples for scifi environment art!)
This doesn't look at all right to me.
(EDIT) actually, I was reading it wrong and it does look around about right.
For a DECENT 1 bedroom apartment that's 30-45 minutes commute to the centre you're looking at at least £800 a month ($1,267 USD).
You could probably get one for less but it will be a dark hole, or with damp, or in a run down hell of an area.
I work at Piccadilly Circus (very central) and for me and my wife there was no option but to commit to over £900 a month. I do not want to spend 3 hours a day commuting. We ended up getting a very nice apartment for £1140 a month. It is VERY expensive here. But your employer should reflect the cost of living in London and pay you at least an extra 5k a year to have to be living here. I'm sure they benefit greatly for being in such a great business hub. Mine does this and I seem to survive fine.
Yeah it is about right. My place at the moment is just under £1200 a month, and I'm 40-50 minutes commute out of central London (if I were to actually commute in) - we live in the supposedly 'scummy' area, but it's actually pretty pleasant, especially when you've previously been living somewhere like Preston.
Replies
Every single person with a rock solid portfolio that I know is working right now, after studio closures and almost every job in Vancouver being contract work of 3-9 months at all the studios here.
anyone with a mediocre portfolio who was laid off, usually didn't do anything to improve it and is no longer in the industry really.
its unfortunate but these days its just more competitive than ever, but I'll stress again, if you have an awesome portfolio there is a 80-90% chance you will be working. if you are not, keep working on your portfolio until you are.
Relocating to a hub is a really good idea if you can, Montreal is booming. Both me and another bud from Relic are moving there in a month or so to work at Ubisoft, simply because that's where the industry is doing well in Canada for now (and its a fucking awesome city!), so its a way to future proof ourselves (which means Relic will be soon looking for 2 enviro artists by the way!).
Right now isnt too bad a time to be graduating at all if you buckle down and work on your portfolio. there is a bunch of people on polycount who just got hired at studios before graduating, bioware and crytek i believe. it just comes down to what you can show you do, how much extra effort you put in and things you are willing to sacrifice. I went the self taught route to save myself some cash but it was hard and I wish I had advice like people are saying here told to me back when i was learning.
be positive, work on your folio, be ready to relocate (even to mars if you have to!). At this point your main goal should be getting into the industry, not staying in one spot (if that's your goal, you might want to forget about working in games, unless you happen to be from Montreal or Austin).
If you're one of the "I don't wanna move" types, then getting into the industry will be very hard. However, nothing stops you to move back to where you came from once you've established a career - it's much easier then. Assuming you even want to go back at this point.
If your portfolio is strong, you will find a job in time. Chr art is usually a bit harder to go into, mainly because there are less of them on projects.
Yeah, for an "entry level" job they all want someone with 5-7 years exp working on AAA titles, with a couple of shipped games under their belt, oh, and you need to know a laundry list of software.
Or not...it has been said a thousand time, the quality of the portoflio is the key.
Compagnies will be more than happy to hire people without experience but with a portfolio that shows quality work.
What they will not do is hire a student with below average work that is going to end up burdening their other artists as they pay you for work that other people will end up having to fix or completely redo later.
So genuine apologies for being off the mark. For me the frustration lies in that I have to do 3 years at uni and so much of it has been filled with report writing which is time I could have spent improving my actual practical skills and of course its gutting when people tell you the past 3 years have been in vein "your finished before you started", especially if you worked hard for the best grades while so many people kind of just went there to play games, not hand work in or hardly show up while your there in the wee hours of the morning writing reports lol.
But anyway the point is I don't like to step out of line, I wouldn't have any pride in the idea of being considered arrogant or impatient, many of you are the experts for a very good reason.
Not to mention Indie games, a few people can make a game that can possibly get huge...I love that I am graduating at this time.
I like doing this and it doesn't matter if I do something else to pay the bills or I work at this full time I'm still going to enjoy it. If you wouldn't do this just for the sheer enjoyment do you really want to make a career out of it? Because we have enough slackers applying who think this is the only career path that will take them in (read these guys don't get hired).
I see people get pretty pent up about finding a job on or before graduation and really the world isn't going to come crashing down because you aren't a rockstar on day 1 of being dumped into society. Normally that take some work.
A lot of schools rubber stamp students so they keep the money flowing and as a result the ones that really want in, put in the required amount of work to get in. So yea school might say you're awesome but you have to take that with a grain of salt. It's a bit like you're mom telling you finger paintings are better than Monet.
The best time to look for a job is while you have one.
If you don't have an industry job by (insert date here) then fall back on (insert menial labor here) until you can polish up your approach and get in. Either way if you make it in or you don't you should never stop pushing yourself to do better.
The idea that the day you graduate your entire life is a failure just because you didn't land that super hard to land job is total nonsense. Most people aren't handed things right out of college just because they went. Most people have to work really hard to get where they want.
May 2008, the month the recession hit. Like I did.
Thats all I got!
Work your butt off or get any job you can till you can migrate into your "dream job".
I arrogantly thought I was really good and didn't have sufficient experience to realize that my work was adequate at best.
Even now I see a shit load of quality new artists out there and it just gets no easier.
just got to dig your heels in and work hard.no point getting annoyed
Thanks Mark for posting that, it was a nice way to put things into perspective. As a soon to be graduate myself I have my moments of brief panic.
As for the original poster, I don't know if it is any consolation but your not the only one in this situation so you may or may not find comfort in that. Also, the only thing I could recommend is getting your portfolio out there and most importantly get feedback. Its what I try and do now, even though I sometimes worry about my work. I dont know what type of program you attended, but mine was only a two year one, so if you have been going at it for about four years now, I am sure you will be fine.
I second this. The OP's original sentiments seem to stem from people graduating those game art schools. I've seen this far too much where I went too. You just have to keep at it.
I myself got critiqued by PC before I graduated and it helped. Shortly after I did more art and updated my site. Within a month I started working and a year and half later I shipped my first game.
Work your ass off and you'll get there.
But that's what they're all afraid of. It's what I'm afraid of. You'd be happy to have this as a hobby, which is the best thing ever. What grads want is for gamedev to be their day job, and playing games to be their hobby, I know that's definitely all I did while doing menial jobs for 3 years.
DUN DUN DUNNNH!
http://www.develop-online.net/news/40256/UK-govt-makes-shock-game-tax-breaks-proposal
Hah - I was jjust about to come in here and post this exact thing!
It will be interesting to see the specifics of what this entails and the incentives they are proposing.
Best news evar!
If it's in line with film, it'll be awesome - 25% off development costs up to £20 million, 20% thereafter
I'm focusing on getting my portfolio up and running, then I'll start applying for jobs within the next few months...or this month if I can kick my butt into gear fast enough.
What I'm trying to say is...and I'm sure many others have too. Don't worry about when you graduate, just worry about making sure you are ready.
"Are you a gamer who wants to develop games, or a developer who likes to work on games?"
He was asking about priorities. He didn't want gamers because the #1 thing in their life was playing games not developing or refining the skills he needed them to have. He had a pretty negative view of gamers in general which was kind of weird but some of his bias made sense.
According to my old Creative Director...
Gamers would gladly spend the weekend blazing through the latest release but would crawl in blurry eyed and zombified. In between recapping their adventures to anyone who will listen, they manage to squeeze out some work until the bell rings and they get to scoot on home and get their fix. Work replaces school and the AD/CD are just baby sitters dragging them to do things they don't want to do, being a roadblock to the thing they really want. He felt they could have that anywhere else but he didn't want to deal with it.
I personally think that point of view is mildly offensive and turned him off to some awesome talent. I think developers need to balance things, be plugged into the latest trends and methods but balance it.
8, 8, 8.
Your boss and your body demand 8hrs each that leaves you 8 hrs to play games or whatever. If you don't have a job you should still spend 8hrs working on the skills that will land you one. Not having a job doesn't mean you have 2hrs to sleep and 22hrs to game while your portfolio handles itself.
Honestly if someone is looking to break in and they spend more time playing games than they do developing, then there shouldn't be much question as to why they have a hard time finding a job.
No glory, all RSI.
When you get in, there is a REALLY good chance you're going to be doing some unpleasant tasks that aren't pushing you artistically. Probably on some title you don't want to talk about. At that point you realize that this is a job like a lot of other jobs out there and to get the job with the creative freedom and flexibility, you thought you where getting, well that is going to take a lot more work. Not to mention working in the industry often means worse hours without compensation...
If gaming is what you love
Be an insurance adjuster, accountant, sell real estate, do some job with predictable hours, internet access and a lax boss. And just do you're time and go gaming when you can. It's pretty much that way in or out of the industry.
If you can't get in, don't be too heart broken and don't forget to do what you love, no matter where you work. You know that old saying "you're only a failure if you fail to try". Well the same is true for artist. You're only a failure as an artist if you fail to produce works of art. Where you work doesn't necessarily need to be the driving factor in making awesome stuff, but a love of making awesome stuff will drive you to some great jobs.
Just some visuals that Feng Zhu explains in his two latest videos, that reinforce your point of view.
http://youtu.be/dnflBERf2zM
http://youtu.be/3TVji_fiKsw
He explains what you talk about, and the creative process vs design. Very useful stuff.
The weekend however was when shit got done. It amazes me that I ever managed to find the time to do as much hobby work as I did. It's that hobby work and experience that has landed me better work since
I don't find the time to do that anymore and it actually really bugs me that I'm nowhere near as productive even though I now have umpteen hours of free time a week. I blame it on having to live with the other half.
The core point is, whatever free time you have if you're spending it playing games instead of working on your portfolio then you probably aren't going to get too many offers. Portfolios don't build themselves.
It's less "poor urban planning" and more "London is the center of the world for too much business"; between three and four million people travel into and out of an area a few square miles across every working day.
In the states if we don't like how the urban planning is going we just move a few miles and scratch out a new business park, a few housing developments and a few shopping centers.
In the part of the country where I live, the Northwest, we also don't mind knocking down entire city blocks, most of the older buildings here, are built in the 70's and are horrible eyesores to a lot of people. Anything older either burned down, was regraded or bulldozed for the freeway. Almost all of it was too recently built at the time it was torn down to have any historical significance, and so we just keep knocking down last decades trashy buildings... Maybe things will calm down and clutter up when we've been around as long as London has, ha.
Average London weekly rents:
http://www.londonpropertywatch.co.uk/average_rental_prices.html
The cheapest rents on there are about £200 ($320 USD) per week for a one bedroom apartment. These are all 6+ miles away from the 'central london' area where people tend to work (EC1), where rent is in excess of £400 ($640 USD) per week.
I paid £40 per week to live where I did, but it cost about £115 per week just to travel, and I got to live somewhere that wasn't extremely dodgy. My take-home pay was around £300 per week, so you can see where I'm coming from. This is more than double minimum wage at the time.
There's a pretty good documentary on why that's not a very futureproof way to run things (though you probably concur)
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-Find highly skilled artists personally and try to get to know as much about their thought process as you can. (I have my brother helping me out, who was trained in traditional art since his childhood.)
-Read books about lifedrawing, sculpting, painting. Do your research there is a lot out there.
-Do the hours. (Even talented people had to learn, they just learn faster.)
If you stay on the modelling and texturing field, you will not face anything technically too complicated, so never complain about that stuff if you are not scripting, programming code please.
This field is just as difficult as any other. The bad trend is because it is creative, and subjective a lot of times, people get through college not gaining the knowledge and skillset. Art is learned differently like analitical stuff, it is important to be aware about that.
DON'T PANIC.
BE PATIENT.
When I graduated last year I was feeling good about my post uni prospects. I knew my final year work wasn't job worthy, but I also knew that I could pump out better stuff for my folio. I knew how hard it is to get a job, but I was one of the top of my class, so I was optimistic.
I took a few months off from game art to recuperate from the constant crunch madness of my final year. But after two or three months I just could not get back into the swing of things. I felt like the eyes of the world where on me, waiting. Job hunting was going nowhere, living at home was depressing, I had lost all motivation to do 3d. I ended up being in a massive slump for months, pretty much until Christmas. I produced next to no work!
What got me out of it, slowly, was alot of things. But one realisation I had was about my expectations leaving uni. I didn't expect to get a job off the bat, but I thought if I didn't have a job in a few months, I was a total failure. The reality is, this is bullshit. You have to work on your art and be patient. It's fine to spend a year after uni improving yourself to get a job in the industry, and you shouldn't feel like the world is watching.
I couldn't get as good as I wanted to be just pumping out shit quickly in the hopes it would get me a job. I had to take it slow and continue my education where it left off. Getting a part time job or living at home is a shitty part of this deal, but you can't let it get you down. Don't be afraid to apply to 3d jobs outside the games industry either!
Be patient and work on your art. If you relax, you will work more!
Also I live in a state with a lot of trees and the land has to be cleared before it can be used. Trees don't pay taxes, people who put up useless strip malls do... Well, they pay taxes for a while, then their business goes bust when society crawls to the next spot and we all stare at urban blight... yeah short sightedness!
But there are some rays of hope, "Urban farming" is starting take root in places around the country, where old suburban sprawl has been replaced by crops. In Wash St we have programs to help train and equip new local farmers. Places are starting to rely a bit more on local goods (at least around my area) and hopefully we will wake up and realize that not everyone needs to be congregated in one central spot to get things done. But that's all another thread for another time hahaha.
Your posts are always gold Mark. I love how it started off sounding like a super shut down on the attitudes I was expressing, but turned into a well reasoned, common sense argument. There's no way I'm going to be an accountant, even if all I love is gaming. That 8 hours thing is my number one issue right now (first world problems ftw) it's astounding how easy it is to waste time, I swear I have more free time to me now that I did in my highschool years and I did so much more then! Always ready for a good 8 hours of work, and then whoa; time for bed, and I didn't even get to play games either!
That guy you mentioned sounds like somebody who'd be mad at film staff for watching movies.
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89972
Beyond that, keep consistently putting work out.. Add new stuff to your portfolio, ,apply to everything that seems to fit, even loosely, and make a good solid network of like minded friends both pro and not.
Be the guy that everyone would want to work with, both in competence and attitude.
yeah, we're about to derail
will watch that video - urban farming sounds great, like a more institutionalized version of guerrilla gardening.. and like a suburban version of skyscraper farms (which we don't really have yet, but boy would they make nice examples for scifi environment art!)
This doesn't look at all right to me.
(EDIT) actually, I was reading it wrong and it does look around about right.
For a DECENT 1 bedroom apartment that's 30-45 minutes commute to the centre you're looking at at least £800 a month ($1,267 USD).
You could probably get one for less but it will be a dark hole, or with damp, or in a run down hell of an area.
I work at Piccadilly Circus (very central) and for me and my wife there was no option but to commit to over £900 a month. I do not want to spend 3 hours a day commuting. We ended up getting a very nice apartment for £1140 a month. It is VERY expensive here. But your employer should reflect the cost of living in London and pay you at least an extra 5k a year to have to be living here. I'm sure they benefit greatly for being in such a great business hub. Mine does this and I seem to survive fine.