The UK industry has little to no regard for university degree holders
polycounter lvl 7
I saw something today that made me livid. I found a job advert for a junior artist role. After reading all the requirements and feeling pretty confident I was about to apply when I saw that they wanted a minimum of 2 years work experience in a media company.
This got me thinking. Does the UK industry have any respect for the games industry education at all? Granted it is pretty bad but surely a degree must count for something? This requirement in the role in question was almost certainly put there to block %90 of graduates from applying for the role and to be honest I find that absolutely disgusting.
My university was god awful, by the end of it most of the guys who passed still didn't know the very basics, and I mean basic. A few guys didn't even know how to apply a texture (no joke, and this was THIRD YEAR). I am insulted by this because I worked really hard for my degree and I think I came out of uni with some decent skills under my belt and all I need to do now i theory is keep working on portfolio. Whats pissed me off is that I went to uni for 3 years for absolutely nothing seeing as uni taught me nothing and my degree is worthless as the industry actively avoid graduates.
At the risk of sounding like a complete child but how is this fair at all? How can the industry not step in and tell the educational authorities that they are doing an abysmal job and how can the educational bodies fail to notice that over %90 of their graduates in this area don't go anywhere in the industry?
I normally ignore all that crap about the 'forgotten generation' as tbh the last generation didn't have it perfect and neither did the ones before that but don't you think there is a good amount of blame to be leveled at both the industry and at the universities too that keep encouraging people into these dead end courses when they know for a fact that job prospects at the end are very bad and made worse by the fact that they don't prepare them properly for it in the first place.
Also while I am all fired up why is the text entry box writing in green? Was it always this way? I cant tell but it is suddenly doing my head in as I'm finding it hard to read lol.
This got me thinking. Does the UK industry have any respect for the games industry education at all? Granted it is pretty bad but surely a degree must count for something? This requirement in the role in question was almost certainly put there to block %90 of graduates from applying for the role and to be honest I find that absolutely disgusting.
My university was god awful, by the end of it most of the guys who passed still didn't know the very basics, and I mean basic. A few guys didn't even know how to apply a texture (no joke, and this was THIRD YEAR). I am insulted by this because I worked really hard for my degree and I think I came out of uni with some decent skills under my belt and all I need to do now i theory is keep working on portfolio. Whats pissed me off is that I went to uni for 3 years for absolutely nothing seeing as uni taught me nothing and my degree is worthless as the industry actively avoid graduates.
At the risk of sounding like a complete child but how is this fair at all? How can the industry not step in and tell the educational authorities that they are doing an abysmal job and how can the educational bodies fail to notice that over %90 of their graduates in this area don't go anywhere in the industry?
I normally ignore all that crap about the 'forgotten generation' as tbh the last generation didn't have it perfect and neither did the ones before that but don't you think there is a good amount of blame to be leveled at both the industry and at the universities too that keep encouraging people into these dead end courses when they know for a fact that job prospects at the end are very bad and made worse by the fact that they don't prepare them properly for it in the first place.
Also while I am all fired up why is the text entry box writing in green? Was it always this way? I cant tell but it is suddenly doing my head in as I'm finding it hard to read lol.
Replies
but yeah, portfolio is everything, and yours (http://www.artistinabox.co.uk/) needs some work.
Secondly why SHOULD a degree be worth anything in any art field?
The industry does not actively avoid graduates. At least half of the people I know in the industry have some kind of university level education. Everything from trained architects to people with degrees in English literature.
So secondary education is not useless. But it's not the thing that will determine if you get a job. Unsurprisingly this is the same for most art related fields.
A game company looking at you as an applicant will put 90% of their focus on your portfolio. If you have 2 people with similar portfolio's and performed the same on an art test then having a degree will help.
If you want to get a degree, go to a accredited university / college and major in something useful like computer science. If you want to be an artist, get a traditional art background from a real school. If you are not majoring in something engineering related IMO you are throwing your money away going to college now a days.
I worked my ass off in community college and transferred to UCSD (top 5 public school in the country) and majored in programming in the arts. I worked on my portfolio while I was there, taught myself many different programming languages, and talked with my professors. One professor liked my portfolio and hired me to work with his salaried employees on a game that the university is making as a technical artist. I am working on the project as I finish my degree.
So now when I am done with school in 3 months I will have a good degree from an amazing university, with tons of work experience, for around 40k. That's the approach most people should take IMO. Go to a real school while working on your portfolio on the side.
My only saving grace is that I do have the skills to improve my portfolio and I am doing as much as I can but there are hell of a lot of others who left the art related courses without any skills (yet still have a degree on paper) and either have to start form the beginning or pick up where they left off and try to scratch a living.
It just completely sucks.
So, would you have had the motivation to keep going without the deadlines and marks and all that jazz?
Don't worry, you are not the only one. Higher Education now a days is becoming a joke. 60% of the people in college are just throwing their money away. It's a legal scam IMO.
I do think a lot of my parents generation really seemed to work that way. So its understandable that our elders encouraged us to do what they did and get qualifications. It wasnt worth the money or time for me either but it did teach me how to live on my own and how to get off my ass and work hard for what I want, even when my lecturers dont have the skills or time or resources to teach me.
University of Polycount FTW.
The reason degrees are more relevant in technical fields is because their standards are much less subjective, more easily measured, and most importantly they are usually fields where a portfolio cannot be provided, so they judge applicants on what little they have which is usually only "Where has this guy worked in the past, does he have any recommendations, where did he go to school"
The fact that people see it as a bad thing that the industry doesn't care where you went to school is somewhat depressing to me because I see it as a good thing: Even the self-trained can compete on par with everyone else if he can build a strong enough portfolio on his own, a luxury most other industries don't have because a degree is a barrier of entry.
Amen to that
I think a lot of companies put that there to weed out younger folks who think their college-project portfolios make them ready for anything. It is not necessarily a definite "Yes, you need to actually have this experience", it's mostly just to deter applicants who don't meet that requirement that might be reading - under the assumption that their skills are probably not what they're wanting, and so it will hopefully save them from having to wade through a sea of underskilled college grads (or hobbyists).
I'd say if you have the portfolio, if you have the skills, you should be putting in applications to such places regardless of whether or not you have the "field experience" they're looking for. You may be surprised.
I hadn't really looked at it from that perspective man but you do have a point. A degree shouldn't be a barrier as in this industry its the quality of work that matters not the piece of paper you have on your fridge but shouldn't a degree be a guarantee of at least a minimum of ability? My uni let lots of people resit more than once just so their figures looked better. Which in return has diluted the merit of the degree as now two guys with a 2:1 can have a massive gap in skill level which has made employers (in my opinion) distrustful of the degree itself as in truth it isn't a guarantee of anything other than they wasted 3 years of their life.
Also we do go to uni for an education not a degree, however at least in terms of game industry related courses the educational standard in the UK was really bad.We where taught the very basics which for the amount of cash and time we spent there was really not worth it. I wish I had had the guts to leave in first year tbh.
Portfolio is king but I've seen shits given about degrees
I've read hundreds of CVs and I've done dozens of interviews, and the level of quality of most (but certainly not all) of those courses is low. There are many students however who realise this and work hard to teach themselves what the course is lacking, and this is great - self motivation is a superb quality.
For the employer? What's the point really when you can just demand a portfolio?
I disagree with the notion that degrees are worthless (*to employers) because the education is so poor, degrees are worthless because the quality of all of our work can be far more accurately demonstrated with a portfolio and an art test. Even if you went to a GOOD art school, even if ALL art schools were good and provided great education, everyone would still expect to see a portfolio.
Here's why;
I know 7 people who applied for jobs last year, 5 artists, a concept artist and an animator.
5 of those had been to uni, all had similar quality folios (a couple had slightly better than others). 4 of those people got jobs at UK companies straight out of uni with a degree, the other 3 (including the two 'self-taught') did not.
I would like to see the results of a poll on here from every UK resident who has gotten their first industry job in the last 1-2 years on whether they have a games/art related degree or not. I would wager that the large majority, if not all, are uni grads. Not industry vets or people who've been in for 4+ years, just recent grads/Juniors. The level of education on games courses here in the UK is seemingly improving rapidly, there's plenty of fine examples of work in the Hertfordshire Uni thread, and my Brother is currently on a college level games course whose syllabus has been greatly improved this year and from what I can see, the tutors seem pretty switched-on, and seem to know the modern industry fairly well.
I'm not saying a degree = job, of course it doesn't, just as 'no-degree' doesn't mean 'no job'. I just think employers actually favour degrees more than a lot of people on here seem to think.
Of course level of work and portfolio quality will ALWAYS be the prime reason for interest in a candidate, I think a degree is definitely looked upon as a good quality by employers, and I think too many people sling the 'Degrees are meaningless' thing around here far too often.
This is why you'll see a lot of people recommend a fine arts degree or a computer science qualification. Because those degrees are usually a guarantee of a minimum amount of ability. Games degrees are just too new and too specific.
I have been told by some indie devs and local games company employees around Sheffield that I socialise with that the only real thing they consider when they see that you have a degree is that you've learnt to manage your time. That seemed like pretty much it.
My university' standards are very low, you can get a first with very little effort if you're smart about it but hopefully this has occurred to me early enough that I can get a good portfolio ready come job application time...
Luckily I found Polycount so hopefully that'll help me...
It's entirely likely and far more probable that the reason most people who get hired have degrees is because the most committed and determined artists are more likely to get degrees. Which says nothing about the actual value of the degree.
You're better off surveying employers and asking them how much of their hiring decision goes into whether or not their applicant has a degree.
Degrees might not be worthless but they have so little value they may as well just be a tie-breaker.
Also one of the often underspoken benefits of college, probably the biggest benefit really, is making contacts with people who will go on to be your future coworkers also, which has nothing to do with the degree but seriously helps your chances of getting a job.
- for others, while you are doing your degree you need to keep pushing yourself outside of your school studies. If you don't need to work while studying make sure your spending plenty of that time working on your art.
Its a global competition for jobs.
Also consider that there has been a big shift away from large AAA developed games. Casual, Social or whatever you want to call them are here and making a killing.
If I was looking to get into games I would be focussed on the skills to work in the fastest growing sector of the games industry and not learning skills to work in the ever shrinking field.
The industry changes faster than a degree course can adapt too. Its been the message on polycount for years that traditional art skills should be the focus for everyone. They transcend 3d application/current techniques that can be learnt from training dvd's.
The thing is though this isn't the universitys fault, at least not here. We all have access to the same help, we all get told to use polycount and other forums, we all have lecturers available for help at all hours. But the mentality of people seems to be 'hurr i'll do a games degree, barely pass, and land my dream job' when it just isn't like that.
also, you apply yet?
Unis have always been a bit crap, you are expected to make use of the facilities , not to be held by the hand all the way through.
I learnt 1000 times more watching one feng Zhu tutorial than I did from my "drawing" teacher the whole year.
The only reason I plan to keep going until I graduate is that it gives me a lot of motivation to actually get projects done, and it's pretty cool working around other people who do the same shit as you.
So Im glad I went to university, but disappointed in the quality.
In the meantime I'm upping my skills in the break so that maybe I'll actually be worth something when I graduate.
I failed my first year. Then dropped out, freelanced for a year, then landed a gig.
Lousy or not, when the alternative is working ten years in the industry before the VISA jerks will consider you, I think the uni degree is far from a useless thing to have. I've toyed with the idea of going back to school and getting mine a few times.
In 2 years of job hunting I have came across recruiting agencies, they are there to set their business and get references off you. There are however good agencies too with nice people who actually try and help you cause if they get a best employee to company the more rep they get.
Degree in a any field in a long run helps as long as its a legit. Cause education and knowledge never goes to waste.
Call the companies direct, make appointment wiht HR manager or CEO and if possible walk in and ask what they are looking for and tell them what is different in you.
In UK only Kent, Hertfordshire, Bournemouth, Escape are the places with good rep within the industry. So are the prices nad yes they dont teach you much but the strong basics, from there onwrards its upto you how you push the limits in your work.
In my case I have ton load of freelance work experience ranging from directing a comercial to Navy contract, but here in UK I am working in sales cause Industry particularly in UK is more fixed on students coming from the institutes i mentioned above or if you have good word with employees in companies.
I have done 3 years doing a Multimedia degree than moved to UK got a degree in Internet Software Development and now im doing Product Design
Why 3 Degrees you all might wonder why not Phd already
And finally the obvious, economic crisis, where people want to invest in super human employees or dont hire at all.
and almost every day i walk on street dropping CV for any kind of work
Finishing school says nothing about your artistic ability, having a portfolio does.
To sum up my views at the moment.
Uni was a waste of time as relates to what it cost me. I made friends and got a very independent work ethic however that was more due to what they didn't teach rather than what they did. It was a case of 'i see this place is not going to help at all, I had better pull my socks up' and to be fair if I ever get into industry then ti will be down to this attitude. I did meet some people and do somethings I wouldn't have done otherwise but was it worth 26k+? hell no. And has ANY company been interested in my degree so far? Hell no.
This may change but at the moment it is a big fat no.
The job ad I mentioned originally really annoyed me because it was from an agency. What is infuriating about this ad is that they ask for 2 years experience in a media company however the role 'junior artist' is an entry level role, surely they are contradicting terms. Now I would see this normally as a means to stop berks applying for the role, as was mentioned above. However I know for a fact that the agency will take these requirements as gospel and no matter how I try to justify indie projects or Uni as valid experience they will not even submit me for the position. Whats worse is this is a junior TEMP role and they STILL demand 2 years experience. IMO that is pure arrogance, and it annoyed me so much I ended up ranting on here. I did apply for the job btw but I seriously doubt they will submit the application.
Now as for ME at the moment. I am not shocked I am not in the industry yet. I left uni knowing I was not good enough and still aren't. Its just a shame you gotta earn a buck otherwise I would work 24/7. I do not blame companies for not hiring me or people like me. (I DO blame them for not even having an automated refusal email but that's another thread for another day ;P)
At the end of the day I just have to keep working and hope that I get to where I want to be. It DOES feel unfair when you see other people younger that are way better due to actually having tutors that actually taught them something or starting form a younger age but THAT is just life and really after I've gotten over my tantrum all the power to them.
I think what bugs me most is that I am 24. I have worked all my life (from being 16) and have tried really hard at all my studies and due to the studies themselves being crap I have left uni and realized that graduation was the starting pistol not the finish line. I have a long way to go and I feel like I have not accomplished anything in my life and it as there is no visible light at the end of the tunnel it is kind of hard to get up every morning. I am only 24 but it feels like 30 is breathing down my neck and I am still living like a 17 year old at my parents house.
I know, bring on the violins.
To get myself out of the funk I am joining the Territorial Army soon to try my hand at something totally new, and hopefully give me something achievable to work towards.
Thanks for posting on the thread and thanks for not hating me. After writing it I realized how whiny it sounded and I do resent that a bit.
Also to the guy who was talking about not expecting uni to hold your hand. I totally resent the implication as I have worked my ass off for everything I have had in life since I was 16. There ARE a lot of people out there who think they should be guided through life but I am not one of them and uni most definitely did not hold my hand.
Later
All i can give you is my example that depite being out of work I am holding firm to getting into the industry and not planning to change my career completly.
Patience my friend, Patience.
If you have no experience but a good portfolio, that requirement is not "valid" and you will get the job anyway without any experience. Simple as that.
That's what put me off teeside. They had fantastic labs and facilities but the course itself was almost all traditional art.
Also, unrelated; you should drop that monitor from your portfolio, it's too basic. On the other hand your weapons look great! Just keep making stuff at that level of quality/complexity to replace the other stuff you have on there and you're onto a winner.
things must be different over there.. Here you do not just walk into game companys. Thres a whole thread about it burried some where and there was pretty much 2 sides of the argument that boiled down to
People who are in the industry who say "never never just show up asking for work"
and people who have never worked in the game industry saying "of course you can just show up and ask for work!"
Also here you are not likely to just call a hr guy or ceo and get an apointment to walk in and talk.
being good to work with is one of the most important things... you could have the most amazing portfolio but would people want to possibly work in close proximity and for long hours with a complete twat. NO...
and this is why the UNI of polycount is way better than physical schools for the most... becuase interacting with the people of polycount you are interacting with alot of industry, while unis seam to be very disconnected with it...no matter what most schools say...