Discussion: Increasing your speed with highpoly hard-surface modeling
polycounter lvl 19
Hey everyone,
I wanted to open up a dialogue on techniques, tricks or tools people use when it comes to highpoly hard-surface modeling.
Specifically I'm interested in learning about what people use or do when it comes to setting up your edge control loops. Are you manually creating them? Does your tool of choice offer fast solutions? Perhaps you have a plugin or script you're using to automate that process a bit?
I don't think I'm slow by any means, but there's elements to this part of modeling that are on the same level of excitement as UV layout so i thought I'd see what people are up to when it comes to modeling this way.
I wanted to open up a dialogue on techniques, tricks or tools people use when it comes to highpoly hard-surface modeling.
Specifically I'm interested in learning about what people use or do when it comes to setting up your edge control loops. Are you manually creating them? Does your tool of choice offer fast solutions? Perhaps you have a plugin or script you're using to automate that process a bit?
I don't think I'm slow by any means, but there's elements to this part of modeling that are on the same level of excitement as UV layout so i thought I'd see what people are up to when it comes to modeling this way.
Replies
I don't think I do anything special, I use the add swift loop tool a lot, one should notice when it acts up tough, and use the regular connect instead.
I also use the turbotools and ic.shape span edges, trying to use hotkeys when I can or remember.
I consider myself average speed modeler really, always wanting to get faster
If you want to create very complex stuff you have to do it by hand I guess but most of the time you deal with standard stuff and to speed this up with scripts is huge time saver
1. Bind SWIFT LOOP to a Key!
I use Tilde ~
VIDEO: http://www.screencast.com/t/OXbPgOFTbQ9
2. Block out the ENTIRE mesh.
I create an entire mesh and don't add control edges until the very end of object. I do this because I found myself staring at the tiniest details that will get lost in the normal map.
3. Don't be so exact with your control edges. Video game players will never notice the difference between a connect edge at a Value of 2.12 or a connect value of 1.94. For the overwhelming majority of your edges eyeballing will be more then sufficient. Don't micromanage.
And I've noticed a lot of people don't know that while you have Swift Loop activated, you can hold in control+alt and it will let you drag the last created edge loop with edge constraints on. It makes adding edge loops and adjusting them incredibly simple.
Also, instead of adding a new turbosmooth modifier to each object in your model, just instance the first turbosmooth modifier you applied. That way you can toggle the modifier for all the objects at once.
The Sweep modifier is a great way to get really complex trims and spline shapes quickly. The great thing about it is that you can go back and adjust the spline it's instancing in real time at any point in the process.
I'll give this some more thought and see what I come up with.
That's odd, I've never had that issue. I can undo individual loops without exiting Swift Loop. And you can also hold control+shift, then click on and edge to delete the loop.
Swiftloop lets you edit ANY pre-created loop.
Hold Ctrl+Click while in Swift Loop to select a loop. Then hold Alt+Click while in Swift Loop to move that edge along a constraint or Ctrl+Shift+Click to remove the edge and all verts. No undoing necessary.
Connect Settings -> hotkeyed
Thats how I do it. There's probably better methods.
Racer445 shows this awesome technique in his hard surface modeling overview on CGTuts+ where he actually uses a turbosmooth set to use smoothing groups to automate support loops, calls it double-smooth or something like that.
Yep that's how I do it too. I actually have Connect and Connect Settings both keyed in case I just need to do a quick connect or tinker with options.
edge straighten all the way
great tip, thanks!
another convenient graphite tool i couldn't live without is set flow / flow connect. the loop tools (especially "circle") are very convenient as well.
I also use IC.SelectSpan after seeing racer445's tut using it, quite useful for selecting loop sections
I tried to bind tilde to show/hide end result in max for turbosmooth but for some reason it wont toggle it, if I bind it to another key it works fine however :[
thats not what im using it for
http://www.per128.com/pages_tutorials/index.html#
I noticed we all use a ton of scripts here and there. Is there a good way to manage them all efficiently, and not having your screen cluttered like crazy at all times?
I gotta find a better way to do this though...
About regular hard surface modeling I recommend all the tools from polyboost that are now built in the newer versions of max - especially the Loop Tools and the Retopology tools, as well as some of the selection tools like FillHole etc (making quick and efficient selections is part of having a faster way of working).
Here are some videos showing selection tips:
Fill Hole -> http://www.vertexbee.com/pics/sel_FillHole.swf
Limited Loop -> http://www.vertexbee.com/pics/sel_Limited.swf
SoftSelection -> http://www.vertexbee.com/pics/sel_SoftS.swf
Select similar -> http://www.vertexbee.com/pics/sel_Similar.swf
Swiftloop is on Shift -S for me. If there's one thing I'd call critical this would be it.
Also like codefather says, part of it comes down to good workflow with blockouts. I never Zbrush stuff, or retopologise, but I tend to construct it from the ground up in a way that allows me to take blockout meshes to highpoly.
You know, one thing I fantasize about sometimes, is some sort of ultimate hardsurface application that allows much more rapid, realistic creation of models. Like Solids CAD applications, but no focus on precision and accuracy (less type-ins, etc..) and a much more streamlined user interface in every aspect, allowing you to work fast.
I dont know if anybody here has done any real life fabrication/metalworking/welding, but going back to 3D sometimes feels very backwards and frustrating. Like doing weld seams, something very straightforward in real life, takes annoying hacks and workarounds. Or just putting something together out of thick metal plates, bending them, cutting; so silly to have to actually worry about thickness and chamfering...
Just imagine an app that works much more like you build in real life: you can build something from solid shapes, not having to worry about flow since you can just do booleans, you can dynamically set chamfer/bevel sizes...
You can work with metal plating in the same way, bend and cut them easily and dynamically.
Use some specific paintlike tools to add rivets, details, do welding. Even stuff like denting/impacts based on physical material properties.
Instead of manually having to estimate retoplogy, you'd be sort of guided by the highpoly larger shapes. So things would stay straight and not get all wobbly like you get with current software.
Really wish this would happen some day. Modeling fun times 10 !
also, +1 IC_Shape's span select. much better than max's span mode (or what it's called). also love IC_Shape's options for switching between inner/outer edge, vert, face selections. too bad updates have slowed down since SyncViews got nabbed by the industry
that is very much how i imagined nurbs modelling with rhino to be like (minus the damage part) - but it just isn't very stable or userfriendly or i just haven't spend enough time in it.
also blockouts are very important, i will block out in a way that makes it easy to add support loops for the HP, than duplicate the blockout before i start working on the HP so i can later use and optimize it for the LP mesh.
good selection tools on keys are a must too, In VW and Modo, i got loop select on double LMB click, and ring selection on double MMB click, and i can also both of those work with partial loops and rings if i make a selection the doable click down the loop or ring farther. i also set my keys for changing selection types to default to converting the selection, and have a key for saving the current sub-object selection and one for pasting the last saved selection.
and lastly, i will try to make new geometry out of existing geometry when ever possible, it is much quicker to duplicate a face to a new object and shell it than it is to create a new primitive and position it properly, same goes for splines, i find myself making splines from a edge selection more often than doing one from scratch.
I'm not using the graphite interface , it is very laggy( what Autodesk actually give us as a gift is the option to use the old polyboost interface, its much better
While I've never used it, isn't that kind of like how Modo works? I do get the impression that Hard Surface Modelling in max isn't quite what it should/could be, but that shouldn't stop one from trying out other apps!
- show end result hot keyed to ~ (to see the effect of the modifiers while on the Editable Poly or Edit Poly stack)
- key map the select loop and ring select
- I thought some of you might find this interesting mesh smooth control "MeshSmooth Controls is a script for 3DS Max that allows you control over the meshsmooth modifier similar to XSI and other packages. " mapped to - + for up and down level, i used it in the past, personaly I would like this for TurboSmooth, but meshsmooth is also good
- modifier sets with the most common modifiers: bend, ffd(box), turbosmooth, symmetry, edit poly, tessellate
- repeat last hotkeyed
- using the quad panels by right clicking in the viewport(clicking on the dark grey bar of the tools will repeat the last command you used from that panel)
- making your own toolbars or panels with often used commands
- leave those ngons on flat surface be and move on with your modeling
- once you start modeling be smart and plan your next step
- listen to racer 445 tuts while modeling
- graphite modeling tools/ Polyboost(buy only) for earlier versions of max
Those are some of the things I use. I do use Turbotools for easy management of Turbosmooth modifier on multiple objects and other stuff like moving the pivot to selection. Graphite modeling tools(max 2011) and other.
cheers! and yeah, i try and avoid opening their laggy p.o.s. graphite interface whenever possible.. i remap what i need to quads or keys..
http://www.mariussilaghi.com/
PolyFlow is pretty helpful, so is quad chamfer, as are all of the other tools. The only downside is they aren't free.
I second or 14th swiftloop. There are times its a bit buggy, normally I have to zoom out if I'm having trouble placing a support loop close to an already existing edge, but if you keep your loops clean and flowing its great.
What actually helped me the most was sitting down and going over what I do and how I do it, then tweaking the UI/shortcuts to speed me up. Perna had a suggestion to script context sensitive hotkeys which sped me up so instead of 40-45 shortcuts I shrunk that down to 20.
I stumbled upon this after writing my own so for the scriptually challenged it might be just what they need.
http://miauumaxscript.blogspot.com/2011/10/magic-hotkey-10_15.html
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I like to use edge contraints for stuff like this:
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extruding edges with 0 height to control edge hardness:
Update: almost the same thing with IC.PolySplitRing
Also, swift loop can do something like this with ctrl+alt drag with a selection of edges that have already been cut in.
IC.PolySplitRing is another good option, too.
The thing is, I don't always want to add a complete loop around my whole object. That's why I like to use connect>edge constraint>move to edge>move back.
macroScript QuadConnect category:"BTK Scripts" Tooltip:"QuadConnect" ButtonText:"QuadConnect" ( if (selection.count == 1 and classOf selection[1].baseobject == Editable_Poly) then ( local curObj = $.baseobject case subobjectlevel of ( 2: -- EdgeMode ? ( local edgeSel = (polyop.getEdgeSelection curObj)as array case edgeSel.count of ( 1: -- 1 edge selected=split edge ( $.EditablePoly.divideEdge edgeSel[1] 0.5 select:on subobjectLevel = 1 ) default: --else it's quad connect ( $.connectEdgeSegments = 1 -- change the value will chagne the default Connect Edge Segments value $.EditablePoly.ConnectEdges () PolyToolsModeling.BuildCorner() ) ) ) ) ) )I use SwiftLoop quite heavily. If it hasn't already been said, you can also add new geo to low poly curves to smooth out the curve, by shift-clicking the edge/face.
ya the script is kinda like making your own context sensitive tools, just like silo or voidworld ones, with the exception that it dosnt check to see if the user pressed the key or held the key down.
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85699
WTF, where are those located in Max 2012?
Remember this, if you hover over any button in the graphite modeling tools it will show you a video of how to use it and any of the modifying button's functions (SHIFT, CTRL, and ALT).
And so, as you can see, if you drag a loop while holding CTRL+ALT it will auto align perfectly. no turning on edge constrains.
Graphite tools can be awesome when you:
LERN TO CTRL SHIFT & ALT
[ame="
cuhtarl, lol.
Another thing that might help with the speed of modeling in general and hard surface is the Paint selection Region(right click on it and set Paint selection brush size = 1-6, to avoid selecting what we do not want.) Lasso selection is really nice too. I don't know if any of you have encountered this little annoying thing. I move and object and then edit in suboject level and I start selecting multiple edges(faces, verts) with ctrl held down and I end up moving the selection I made while trying to select another edge. It used to happen to me lots of times. So I use the Select Object(hotkeyed) command when I get to subobject selections.