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How The F*#% Do I Model This? - Reply for help with specific shapes - (Post attempt before asking)

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  • Mik2121
  • SpeCter
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    SpeCter polycounter lvl 14
    Not exactly the same, but essentially it´s the same Warwick himself calls it a remake so practically it´s almost the same.
    If i knew that earlier i could have saved 3 hours of uploading these xD.
    I will let it stay in my dropbox for some days, just say if you need them again if they are not present anymore ;)
  • Computron
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    Computron polycounter lvl 7
    madmuffin, what are all those splines about? link me to them guides!
  • Ravenok
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    Ravenok polycounter lvl 7
    Hey guys,

    I've had this problem... I hope this image explains it well enough:
    questionx.jpg

    I tried a ton of stuff.. triangles, loops, eyeballing a fix for the artifact.. there HAS to be a way to do this without messing it up. How do I do it?
  • onionhead_o
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    onionhead_o polycounter lvl 16
    more geo, meaning more support edges on the curved surface
  • Ravenok
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    Ravenok polycounter lvl 7
    Is there no way to keep the mesh with this geometry, but add an edgeloop/some sort of geometry manipulation in the corners to keep them creased without artifacts?

    Edit:
    I tried it, and as I thought, when there are edge loops too close to one another in a curved surface, it'll have a slight crease all along the edge loop...

    There has to be a way to "absorb" it somehow. I tried using triangles, they work for outer corners, but when it comes to inner corners (like the one in the picture above) it seems to crease it not so well, the corner seems "dirty", its there but its not smooth around itself.

    Edit:
    I figured the problem more accurately.
    When I add more geometry, I add edge loops.
    The edge loops put themselves on top of the existing surface, which has very little geometry. With the new geometry I'm supposed to curve the mesh somehow, to actually use the added topology before smoothing - otherwise it'll be like subdividing 2-3 times in ZBrush without smooth turned on, and then turning on smooth - all the edges will become slightly creased.

    I need some way to relax the mesh after adding more geometry without ruining the overall shape. Just push out those edge loops I've added so they curve the surface more.

    Is there a way to do that?
  • papagersi
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    papagersi polycounter lvl 16
    123ws.jpg

    I'm trying to modelling like this button.. but.. it's hard for me..
    I wanna extrude the... (the red mark)

    How should I do?
  • EarthQuake
    Blaken wrote: »
    Is there no way to keep the mesh with this geometry, but add an edgeloop/some sort of geometry manipulation in the corners to keep them creased without artifacts?

    Edit:
    I tried it, and as I thought, when there are edge loops too close to one another in a curved surface, it'll have a slight crease all along the edge loop...

    There has to be a way to "absorb" it somehow. I tried using triangles, they work for outer corners, but when it comes to inner corners (like the one in the picture above) it seems to crease it not so well, the corner seems "dirty", its there but its not smooth around itself.

    Edit:
    I figured the problem more accurately.
    When I add more geometry, I add edge loops.
    The edge loops put themselves on top of the existing surface, which has very little geometry. With the new geometry I'm supposed to curve the mesh somehow, to actually use the added topology before smoothing - otherwise it'll be like subdividing 2-3 times in ZBrush without smooth turned on, and then turning on smooth - all the edges will become slightly creased.

    I need some way to relax the mesh after adding more geometry without ruining the overall shape. Just push out those edge loops I've added so they curve the surface more.

    Is there a way to do that?

    This is a problem of planing. Sure, I could suggest ways to add in more geometry after the fact, but that would just be a bandaid.

    The root of the problem here is that you didn't START with enough geomery, the easiest and cleanest solution would be to simply remodel the shape, from the screenshot it isn't that complex anyway.

    In the future, you need to plan your level of geometry(number of loops etc) to accommodate your mesh complexity. Cutouts on rounded surfaces are always going to need a good amount of loops to support the shape, as should be evident from 90% of the posts in this thread.

    Often times the fastest and best thing to do is just admit to yourself that you modeled it poorly, and redo it now that you understand the limitations of the shape you're trying to create. I find that when i'm having trouble with something, its far more productive to scrap that bit and simply remodel it with a fresh approach, better planing, more thought into it etc than trying to hack it up into something that works. For me that is almost always a huge time loss and the result is a mess. You've gotta know when to cut your losses and just redo it. For example, in the amount of time you took to post here, you could have remodeled that shape with more geometry. =P
  • Ravenok
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    Ravenok polycounter lvl 7
    Thanks for the replies!

    I tried rebuilding the mesh, and I found that in order to get a really sharp corner I gotta use a LOT of edges. Am I doing something wrong or is it really how it should be?

    Also, the shape isn't very simple, I just showed a part of it. I should be ok with modeling only that part and attaching it to the rest though, so it's not a problem.
  • ikonane
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    ikonane polycounter lvl 7
    Not 100% the correct thread but I dont want to start a completely new thread for this.
    I have an question when optimizing a model, is it ok to optimize like this?

    Thanks!
  • Dismembered
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    Dismembered polycounter lvl 9
    Ok, I am trying to figure out how to make weld seams across planar/non-planar surfaces. I looked through a lot of this thread and I only came back with broken links or links that aren't even correct anymore.

    Any help would be great, thank you.
  • cptSwing
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    cptSwing polycounter lvl 11
    ^ Blaken: The Graphite modeling tools included since Max '10 have some tools you might be able to use, namely Flow connect and Set Flow .. i'm guessing they check out face angles of neighboring faces and interpolate. or something.
  • ZePupster
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    ZePupster polycounter lvl 7
    I've got a couple of problems with this particular model. First off, here's my reference.

    zJ58u.jpg

    I'm trying to get the "wrapping" detail that goes along the bottom section of the haft here:

    Dt8xA.jpg

    I'm not sure what's the most effective way of doing this. I had thought of getting a cylinder and manually wrapping it around, but I'm sure there must be a quicker way of doing it.

    Secondly, I'm not sure where I need to put my supporting edges on this part of the model.

    EB4Bf.jpg

    A couple have looped around from other parts of the model that help a little bit, but when I apply my turbosmooth, it ends up looking like this:

    Bx0hH.jpg

    Any help will be much appreciated.
  • lefix
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    lefix polycounter lvl 11
    probably an easy one -.-
    pL8WM.jpg

    how do i do those
    _____
    \____/ \____/

    zig zag lines on the turbine
  • DEElekgolo
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    DEElekgolo interpolator
    lefix wrote: »
    pL8WM.jpg
    Model it as a flat plane and then do a 360 bend and a taper.
  • ikonane
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    ikonane polycounter lvl 7
    I am doint my first weapon, and I think that I might be posting a lot in this thread the next days/weeks. :D

    I have seen a lot of gun related shapes in this thread and will start to look through it from the start, but I will post this image anyhow, how to do this:

    How it looks:
    1911_Highpoly_2.jpg

    Midpoly:
    1911_Highpoly_1.jpg

    Highpoly problem:
    1911_Highpoly_5.jpg

    Problem shape:
    1911_Highpoly_4.jpg

    How it is supposed to look:
    1911rear.JPG
  • onionhead_o
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    onionhead_o polycounter lvl 16
    ZePupster: if you dont have to model the whole hammer as one piece,then you dont have to turbosmooth it just chamfer the parts u want to be smoothed and run a auto smooth grp on it. it should look decent

    ikonane: have u tried taking out the supporting edges near the opening and move it away from it making the edgeloop distribution more even, then run the turbosmooth with smoothing grp on and another turbosmooth ontop.
  • ikonane
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    ikonane polycounter lvl 7
    Thanks, but I am not quite there yet. I still have problem at one corner:
    1911_Highpoly_7.jpg
  • Computron
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    Computron polycounter lvl 7
    Ok, guys we need to add a smilie that posts a tutorial .GIF canned response for MORE GEO.

    ideas?
  • DEElekgolo
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    DEElekgolo interpolator
    Don't expect more geo to fix everything. Especially when someone is 90% done with a model or something.
    Here is a bad mock-up of something you can try.
    gRRoD.png
  • ikonane
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    ikonane polycounter lvl 7
    DEElekgolo, thanks a lot!

    Like this I get the best result:
    1911_Highpoly_11.jpg

    You can still see a little from some angles but nothing that bother too much.
  • gregs
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    gregs polycounter lvl 18

    Note to anyone reading this thread from the beginning - this now redirects to a porn site.
  • ikonane
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    ikonane polycounter lvl 7
    gregs wrote: »
    Note to anyone reading this thread from the beginning - this now redirects to a porn site.
    Haha, yeh I noticed that yesterday :D
    But I didnt know which link it was.
  • EMC3D
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    EMC3D polycounter lvl 14
    Ganemi wrote: »
    Got a question about modeling workflow in Maya. Is there a way for someone to go back to an old version of a mesh, or have a non-destructive workflow, similar to how the modifier stack works in Max?

    What about layers and mesh duplicates? I usually duplicate a mesh with its base geometry which is ready for support loops for the highpoly. This way if I mess up I can go back to the original mesh and start over.
  • Danielmn
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    Danielmn polycounter lvl 14
    mr bear
    good point, I do this as well

    something tho that sparky from id taught me was to use reference objects in max tho dont know if maya has a similiar thing

    but it allows you to mess with a base mesh or working obj while the reference obj gets updated with all any other type of modifiers that get added to it.

    Very useful for seeing how your smooth mesh will look or adding a bend modifiers and still messing with the base.

    I know you can preview the end result but this works alot nicer and faster.

    here is a preview of the setup I use a lot especially when I am modeling pieces base on refence keeps me from having to zooming on tiny parts of the model and not focusing on a grander scope

    itvp2Mdc31S7R.jpg
  • Danielmn
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    Danielmn polycounter lvl 14
    ps works in real time so makes the workflow really fast
  • Jesse Moody
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    Jesse Moody polycounter lvl 17
    I used to do it that way as well Danielmn but I found just adding "SHOW END RESULT" to a hotkey is much faster. With that way I can have symmetry, turbosmooth or whatever else on that I want and model while seeing what it does instantly and I can toggle it on and off with no issues.

    If you keep it referenced for example and somehow add like 50 chamfers or cuts your polys go through the roof and max could lock up or crash or lead to issues. Not saying it happens all the time but it's something that can and probably will happen from time to time.
  • BreaK-
    ikonane wrote: »
    Thanks, but I am not quite there yet. I still have problem at one corner:
    1911_Highpoly_7.jpg

    Heres what I would try.

    Loops.jpg

    Also, your edges are too tight if you're wanting to bake this down. You will get a lot of aliasing further down the line. :)
  • ikonane
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    ikonane polycounter lvl 7
    BreaK- wrote: »
    Heres what I would try.

    Also, your edges are too tight if you're wanting to bake this down. You will get a lot of aliasing further down the line. :)
    Thanks, I will look into that! Is it only the ~90 degree edges or more that is too tight?
  • April87st
    I like this forum, he solved my many problems, thank you
    mating3.jpg
    mating4.jpg
    mating5.jpg
    mating2.jpg
  • ikonane
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    ikonane polycounter lvl 7
    I need some more help with my pistol, how to solve this?
    1911_Highpoly_24_.jpg

    1911_Highpoly_24.jpg


    Thanks!
  • Computron
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    Computron polycounter lvl 7
    DEElekgolo wrote: »
    Don't expect more geo to fix everything. Especially when someone is 90% done with a model or something.
    Here is a bad mock-up of something you can try.

    While this is true, If you look where he is now, it would have been easier to remake it with proper tessellation. Now the edges are too tight and he is going to have a tough time integrating it with the rest of the mesh without the horrid pinching he's currently getting.

    It's always easier to do it proper initially than to fix your mistakes later.
  • ikonane
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    ikonane polycounter lvl 7
    Example please? This is my first more complex high poly model.
    Are we talking about the curve shape that needs more geo? Would that help with the pinching?
  • cptSwing
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    cptSwing polycounter lvl 11
    to solve your pinching, just a loop or two parallel to the rear sight should work, same deal with the shading glitches originating at the 'gripping' part on the slide ( i would try and terminate the loops somewhere earlier).

    what strikes me most though, is how infinitely sharp your edges are. they aren't just sharper than they would very likely be in real life, they will also be a disaster to bake into a normal map, since you would need either a massive map size, or any edge shading would disappear into sub-pixel land.
  • ikonane
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    ikonane polycounter lvl 7
    cptSwing wrote: »
    to solve your pinching, just a loop or two parallel to the rear sight should work, same deal with the shading glitches originating at the 'gripping' part on the slide ( i would try and terminate the loops somewhere earlier).

    what strikes me most though, is how infinitely sharp your edges are. they aren't just sharper than they would very likely be in real life, they will also be a disaster to bake into a normal map, since you would need either a massive map size, or any edge shading would disappear into sub-pixel land.
    Thanks, I will try that. And about the sharpness I will edit that later on as well.
  • BreaK-
    Ikonane.

    You're getting smoothing problems with the sight because you haven't added a supporting edge along the underside of it, along the main body of the gun. Same with the cut into the sight, no supporting edges down the side here, so its giving you strange results on the actual sight itself.

    Not really much help like, but why don't you model the sight separate to the main body? It looks like it could be a bitch modelling it as one thing, and you wouldn't really notice once its textured and the like.

    Try adding your supporting edges a little further away from the main edge too. They're far too tight atm, like a few above posts mentioned.
  • Danielmn
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    Danielmn polycounter lvl 14
    so I went ahead and put this together I hope this helps

    started from 16 sided cylinder that I sliced one segment above the hemisphere of the cylinder

    from there laid in the base areas and then placed in support edges

    and used a template shapes in the background to move edges to keep the necessary curvature

    hope this helps let me know if you need more explanation.


    icZG2iHGiiYR7.jpg




    wire and explanation



    iqEFNHVELNXHW.jpg





    also when I doing models like this where there could be curvature problems that you may not see in the view port, and doing renders may not suffice.

    giving your object a chrome reflection
    and then placing a consistent environment can greatly help to avoid problems down the road.

    by looking at the reflection and you see where inconsistent reflections maybe occurring and where more work needs to be done.


    i3cfIP1SMwUZC.jpg




    polys be with you
  • ikonane
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    ikonane polycounter lvl 7
    Thanks for the advises but I cant really get it right.

    Danielnm, does that work with two turbosmooths as well? I use one with Smoothing Groups at 2 Iterations and then a normal turbosmooth over.

    I get this result:
    1911_Highpoly_25.jpg

    It looks like more geo is the answer but I cant get it to look nice anyhow. I have spent ~3-5hours on this piece now and I am getting frustrated :D

    If anyone want to play around with my piece it can be downloaded here;
    http://db.tt/a830wf25
    It is a .max-file in 3Ds Max 2010 and 2011 version.

    I will keep trying to get it right.
  • roB0T
    This is how i did it with my 1911. The Mesh looks messy but i dont give a fuck about the topology in my Hp model as long as it works. I also put the normals in the pic to show you that the floating geo turned out pretty well.
    wellwellwellj.jpg

    Cheers, Daniel.
  • ikonane
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    ikonane polycounter lvl 7
    Thanks, yes floaters works for me as well.
  • 1974.vikas
    Hi polycount experts . I want to model an f14 but finding myself into a problem of modelling this particular thing. Please help ! f14vf31a_title.jpg
  • tsl
    I had a go with that gun piece as well, I tried to sharpen the corners with local cuts and not adding loops across the whole cylinder and messing up its smoothness.

    Looks good for me, but you pros can comment if this is good way to add details into smooth surfaces and shapes where adding whole loops for creases might not be ideal. And of course starting off with enough geometry like with this one.


    mesh_smooth.jpg

    mesh_wire.jpg

    corner_cuts.jpg
  • DEElekgolo
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    DEElekgolo interpolator
    The quad chamfer script that has been posted around is perfect for something like that.
  • cptSwing
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    cptSwing polycounter lvl 11
    1974.vikas wrote: »
    Hi polycount experts . I want to model an f14 but finding myself into a problem of modelling this particular thing. Please help ! f14vf31a_title.jpg


    since it's a separate part of the fuselage, that's how i'd model it as well. as a smaller chunk, and with enough geometry to support the curvature after your cuts - it shouldn't be *too* hard to accomplish.
  • 1974.vikas
    Thanks for your input cptSwing . I have progressed till here .But can't figure out how to cut holes in it without pinching . my2.jpgmy1.jpg
  • Brendan
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    Brendan polycounter lvl 8
    You're going to get bad pinching until the indented bit in front of it is modelled in. The edge loops around that can run right into the front of the outer bit, and the inside can join onto the scalloped part.
  • magnum1976
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    magnum1976 polycounter lvl 9
    How to model the cells of the Tron Light Cycle?

    lightcycle.jpg

    I work with Modo 501 and Subdiv (TAB keyboard key)
    Thank you in advance to my saviors

    You will find my base mesh in the archive
  • cptSwing
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    cptSwing polycounter lvl 11
    try modeling it out flat and use a bend or similar modifier to get the shape down. have you even tried it?
  • magnum1976
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    magnum1976 polycounter lvl 9
    try modeling it out flat and use a bend or similar modifier to get the shape down. have you even tried it?

    Yes I've tried to model a flat and bend the mesh ... but it is not terrible (it's probably me who does not model correctly) :(
  • 1974.vikas
    What possibly wrong I am doing here . I am getting a nasty pinching at that spot . All quads !v1.jpgkm2.jpgh6.jpg
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