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When should you know that a mod idea is too big to be done?

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When should you know that a mod idea is too big to be done?
Is there a certain point at which the scope of a mod is simply too grand to ever be possible? How do you know when an idea may be over reaching? Is it a case by case issue or is it more about personal commitment than anything else.

An example:

I loved Freelancer back in the day. I still think it was a great space sim that made getting into the genre very simple and fun. These days, especially on newer operating systems it's getting pretty rough trying to run the game. With Microsoft owning the rights but with the original developer dissolved I don't think it's likely we'll ever see another official release again.

I'd love to make a spiritual successor to Freelancer in UDK, and do like the Silver Lining team did and resurrect an old series that's in dire need of some attention. However a part of me thinks, you're crazy to even consider such a project.

Is it unrealistic to try recreating a vintage title from the ground up in a new engine or would it simply be very ambitious? What kind of development cycle would such a project have? What are the chances it'd ever be released, and are there any tips for working on a long term mod project that should be considered?

I don't want to fool myself with happy thoughts and dreams. Lay it on me, is this just futile to even attempt?

Thanks for the input so far, I appreciate it.

Replies

  • Ghostscape
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    Ghostscape polycounter lvl 13
    Have you ever made a mod before? If the answer is no, then yes that's way too big.

    You will know that a mod idea is too big when you have no experience doing anything even remotely close to something that big.

    Start small. Very small. Then work towards something large. Iteratively grow.

    If you shoot for the moon on the first try you wind up knowing nothing about flight and blow up on the ground.
  • Harry
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    Harry polycounter lvl 13
    Remaking a game is maybe a dumb idea, a spiritual successor could work.

    having worked on a lot of failed projects and a few which are doing ok, the principal question to ask yourself, is what your skills and abilities are, and how much of the actual development you'd be able to handle yourself. The actual capabilities of core members seems to have a pretty profound effect on how well a small scale project fares, because the original minds behind it have the expertise needed to guide development and more importantly, lead by example.
  • Habboi
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    Habboi sublime tool
    From experience, if it takes you a long time to make just one level with lots of detail or you struggle with certain aspects of design then you'll simply fail to make a full blown mod.

    The second worst culprit is having all these wild ideas that require coding but being unable to do it yourself so you go around forums asking for help and getting no one cause they're all working for other mods or professionally.

    Finally the worst of the worst is a mod leader who just gives orders and does none of the work.

    I also suggest keeping the team small and somehow guarantee they can always be contacted aka mobile phone. Nothing worse than a team member that's vanished who was supposed to finish something so another member can continue. Oh also using one of those FTP (they're called something else I believe) things to transfer files to each other is a plus.

    Basically if you really want to create this idea then you have to put a lot of effort into it. Do you have lots of knowledge on UDK? The best start is for you to be able to make a rough prototype that's playable, ugly but something for other members who join you to work on. Good luck.
  • Mr_Paris
    Ghostscape wrote: »
    Have you ever made a mod before? If the answer is no, then yes that's way too big.

    You will know that a mod idea is too big when you have no experience doing anything even remotely close to something that big.

    Start small. Very small. Then work towards something large. Iteratively grow.

    If you shoot for the moon on the first try you wind up knowing nothing about flight and blow up on the ground.

    I've been involved with mods since Unreal 2k4, however it was usually limited in scope, new levels, and custom vehicles. Good points you've made. Thanks.
  • Mr_Paris
    Harry wrote: »
    Remaking a game is maybe a dumb idea, a spiritual successor could work.

    having worked on a lot of failed projects and a few which are doing ok, the principal question to ask yourself, is what your skills and abilities are, and how much of the actual development you'd be able to handle yourself. The actual capabilities of core members seems to have a pretty profound effect on how well a small scale project fares, because the original minds behind it have the expertise needed to guide development and more importantly, lead by example.

    Sorry I may have phrased that badly. I would in no way be making a carbon copy of freelancer. That would definitely be pointless! Totally agree with you, especially on the point of leading by example!
  • Harry
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    Harry polycounter lvl 13
    so....... what are your abilities? cause that's pretty much the deciding factor
  • Mr_Paris
    Habboi wrote: »
    From experience, if it takes you a long time to make just one level with lots of detail or you struggle with certain aspects of design then you'll simply fail to make a full blown mod.

    The second worst culprit is having all these wild ideas that require coding but being unable to do it yourself so you go around forums asking for help and getting no one cause they're all working for other mods or professionally.

    Finally the worst of the worst is a mod leader who just gives orders and does none of the work.

    I also suggest keeping the team small and somehow guarantee they can always be contacted aka mobile phone. Nothing worse than a team member that's vanished who was supposed to finish something so another member can continue. Oh also using one of those FTP (they're called something else I believe) things to transfer files to each other is a plus.

    Basically if you really want to create this idea then you have to put a lot of effort into it. Do you have lots of knowledge on UDK? The best start is for you to be able to make a rough prototype that's playable, ugly but something for other members who join you to work on. Good luck.

    I have a functional knowledge of UDK, and have done some levels on it however nothing with this scope. Good point about prototyping, I agree doing something ugly but functional is a definite first step. After all, all the art in the world and no code won't get you anywhere.

    I think the biggest thing I'm worried about is coding, not being a code monkey myself. I agree with you something like this would take a lot of commitment.

    I think overall I view this as a long term goal. In the short term, over the course of this year I'm planning to create an interactive ship interior as a starting point before even considering any bigger plans. This interior will give a lot of fun nods to the Freelancer universe and be kind of a launching pad into a larger project.
  • Mr_Paris
    Harry wrote: »
    so....... what are your abilities? cause that's pretty much the deciding factor

    Right now, strictly mapping, deathmatch levels. So not a ton, and presently definitely not enough to just throw together a fully functional game without some serious research.

    Right now I'm thinking of starting with an interactive space craft interior. Seeing where that goes, and trying to keep a realistic sense of what's possible.
  • Mr_Paris
    I appreciate all of your responses so far. I wanted to get set back on the ground. It's so easy to spout off grandiose concepts, and I know the only way something like this would ever stand a chance would be first by being realistic in my expectations and goals. I'm a hard worker and finish what I start.
  • r_fletch_r
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    r_fletch_r polycounter lvl 9
    Not much to add other than I really wish this could happen. I loved freelancer.
  • Mr_Paris
    r_fletch_r wrote: »
    Not much to add other than I really wish this could happen. I loved freelancer.

    Yeah it's in my top 3 favorite games list personally. Never has a title managed to get me coming back to it for so long. Seems like every time I'm sure I'm done playing it something sparks my interest and I'm back. It's just a shame it's been pretty much forgotten about as a series. :/

    The mod community around it has done some really great stuff too, considering the limitations. Just the idea of seeing a corsair flying through space with all the power of UDK running it is enough for me to want to do a project like this.
  • leilei
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    leilei polycounter lvl 14
    Engine limitation awareness is at an all time low too.






    help make free mmo on Source 4 free plz

    By the way, remember that Freelancer was one of the most ambitious games ever developed in 1999-2003. The scope was too wide for even Digital Anvil themselves so they had to reduce it drastically to get into realistic, reachable plans for a completed game. Unfortunately with today's market selling out to small attention spans, commercial demand for a new Starflight-ish isn't worth the effort. It'll go into a bin of obscurity unless some hipster indie 'simple' art style was pushed on it, then it'll get some mild media attention. Maybe.
  • Mr_Paris
    leilei wrote: »
    Engine limitation awareness is at an all time low too.

    help make free mmo on Source 4 free plz

    By the way, remember that Freelancer was one of the most ambitious games ever developed in 1999-2003. The scope was too wide for even Digital Anvil themselves so they had to reduce it drastically to get into realistic, reachable plans for a completed game. Unfortunately with today's market selling out to small attention spans, commercial demand for a new Starflight-ish isn't worth the effort.

    Oh I'm fully aware of the monster that Unreal can be. Sometimes it can be helpful to have others put your feet back on the ground, that's all.

    And you're quite right about it's tough development history. This game was a beast to tame even when it was first released and was definitely in some ways a victim of it's own scope.

    All the more reason to exercise extreme caution and take some serious baby steps first.
  • cholden
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    cholden polycounter lvl 18
    If you have to ask, then it's out of your range.

    Consider everything in a the game you want to do. Ask yourself if you are willing to create all of that. If so, then move forward. If not, reduce scope. The keyword there is "willing". Sometimes you can get help, but the moment you count on it is the death of your project.
  • Mr_Paris
    cholden wrote: »
    If you have to ask, then it's out of your range.

    Consider everything in a the game you want to do. Ask yourself if you are willing to create all of that. If so, then move forward. If not, reduce scope. The keyword there is "willing". Sometimes you can get help, but the moment you count on it is the death of your project.

    Wise words!

    It's pretty obvious to me that right now this is completely beyond my means. But despite that, looking forward, this is something I would really like to do. I guess what that means for now is taking baby steps in the right direction. Prototyping ideas, building some levels to establish look and feel, as well as considering just what it is I want to make, in detail.

    Maybe I'll never be able to make the game in it's entirety, but really, even if I could just make one star system that captures a piece what made it's predecessor great then I think I'd be happy.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 19
    99.9% of the mods attempted are wayyyy too ambitious. I should know, I worked on a number of them.

    You like freelancer? maybe make a space multiplayer combat game.
  • Mr_Paris
    I had already planned on completing an interactive ship interior in UDK within this year. I think that'll probably be my starting point for this. If I can complete that to my satisfaction then I'll continue onward. I'll be posting about that, and I expect you all here on polycount to hold me to it.
  • Mr_Paris
    99.9% of the mods attempted are wayyyy too ambitious. I should know, I worked on a number of them.

    You like freelancer? maybe make a space multiplayer combat game.

    Quite true! And that's a good idea as well.
  • leilei
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    leilei polycounter lvl 14
    You know how Star Control got started? All the first game was is just a combat system with a 'strategy game'. 2 years later they did that whole universe adventure thing in the sequel, with the same great combat system from the first.

    Toys for Bob started small. Not everyone can be David Braben from their first year of games development.
  • Kwramm
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    Kwramm interpolator
    totally agree with Justin.
    Start small with a workable core game idea. Stay focused, don't get sidetracked or lost in details. Make sure the core game works. Then polish and expand on that.

    Having a good plan of how development should progress is essential. Having a feature list and sticking to it is also a good tool to avoid getting sidetracked.

    A well polished working game, no matter how small scale it is, is worth more than all the hundreds (thousands?) of over ambitious mods that never got finished at all. At least you completed something and have a base to build upon... as long as you got a working v1, you can still add more features in v2.
  • Vailias
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    Vailias polycounter lvl 18
    Definitely going to reinforce the idea of starting with what you can do on your own and building from there. Its easier to recruit others to your idea if you have something you can demonstrate is going somewhere.

    Making a space combat sim is actually a good starting point for a game in.. well.. anything. It has all the main elements of any game, movement, bounding volumes, collision detection, even AI and or multiplayer if you want to have opponents. ;) Good way to get your feet wet coding things if you want to take that road.
  • greevar
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    greevar polycounter lvl 6
    Personally, I'd like to do a resurrection of Wing Commander: Privateer. I miss those types of games terribly!
  • Snader
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    Snader polycounter lvl 15
    If it's just you, or you and a guy, and not 50 people that can spend say, 5 hours a week, then it's overly ambitious. I think even attempting or planning to do a remake of a complete game, or making a complete mod is unrealistic.

    If you want to complete something, focus on a part of that game you liked. Your favorite location, for instance. And then, there might be a small chance the project inspires others and the mod grows.

    But starting out to do everything is proverbial suicide.

    In Dutch, there's a saying - "wie het kleine niet eert, is het grote niet weerd" - which literally means "those who don't honor the small, aren't worth the large". Or more colloquially, "he that can not keep a penny shall never have many".
  • aesir
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    aesir polycounter lvl 18
    My general rule, is if it's something you can't do entirely by yourself, then it's too big and has less than a 1% chance of being made. (unless you're spending real money, and paying salaries)
  • crazyfingers
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    crazyfingers polycounter lvl 10
    My suggestion would be to ditch UDK and go for unity. Far better platform for designing a new game with a small team from what i hear. You wont have the graphical power UDK does but you'll be able to go a lot further a lot faster with gameplay mechanics.

    As others have said you'll likely fail if this is your initial scope, but that's fine I think. Good game design isn't about having the perfect concept from the start, it's about saying constantly saying, "wouldn't it be cool if..." throughout the development of the mod. It's an incredibly iterative process, and if you're going to make it to the end with a tangible game, you need to be able to roll with the punches and adapt to what you find you're actually able to accomplish with the tools at hand.

    A lot of the skills required just comes from trial and error, no ammount of planning will prevent this. Though practicing planning throughout developement is important too. It's hard to describe, but if you jump in head first and work hard at it you'll sorta figure it out on your own, so just jump in!

    Just keep things dynamic and expandable. Figure out ways to keep components of the gameplay isolated and not too ingrained in other systems so you can grow through development of the game and you don't have to scrap it mid way and start over.

    One of the biggest hurdles i think everyone finds early on is how to integrate UI into their game. Try to figure this out early, learn the limitations of what you can do with it. But start with something fun, like figuring out how to make a ship fly around and move on from there.

    So basically, you may start out wanting to remake freelancer, and end up with an FPS where you fly through hoops for points, that's just how it goes. But you'll learn a lot!

    I wanted to make a "rock and roll racing" mod in space not long ago with custom ships and giant asteroids flying around. Custom ships and all that crap, it was very ambitious considering my lack of game design experience, and i think i pulled most of it off actually and learned a sh*tton. The REALLY hard part about making custom content, is finding ways to get people to actually play it!
  • Stronin
    Kwramm wrote: »
    totally agree with Justin.
    Start small with a workable core game idea. Stay focused, don't get sidetracked or lost in details. Make sure the core game works. Then polish and expand on that.

    Having a good plan of how development should progress is essential. Having a feature list and sticking to it is also a good tool to avoid getting sidetracked.

    A well polished working game, no matter how small scale it is, is worth more than all the hundreds (thousands?) of over ambitious mods that never got finished at all. At least you completed something and have a base to build upon... as long as you got a working v1, you can still add more features in v2.

    Thanks so much, that's great insight.
  • Stronin
    My suggestion would be to ditch UDK and go for unity. Far better platform for designing a new game with a small team from what i hear. You wont have the graphical power UDK does but you'll be able to go a lot further a lot faster with gameplay mechanics.

    As others have said you'll likely fail if this is your initial scope, but that's fine I think. Good game design isn't about having the perfect concept from the start, it's about saying constantly saying, "wouldn't it be cool if..." throughout the development of the mod. It's an incredibly iterative process, and if you're going to make it to the end with a tangible game, you need to be able to roll with the punches and adapt to what you find you're actually able to accomplish with the tools at hand.

    A lot of the skills required just comes from trial and error, no ammount of planning will prevent this. Though practicing planning throughout developement is important too. It's hard to describe, but if you jump in head first and work hard at it you'll sorta figure it out on your own, so just jump in!

    Just keep things dynamic and expandable. Figure out ways to keep components of the gameplay isolated and not too ingrained in other systems so you can grow through development of the game and you don't have to scrap it mid way and start over.

    One of the biggest hurdles i think everyone finds early on is how to integrate UI into their game. Try to figure this out early, learn the limitations of what you can do with it. But start with something fun, like figuring out how to make a ship fly around and move on from there.

    So basically, you may start out wanting to remake freelancer, and end up with an FPS where you fly through hoops for points, that's just how it goes. But you'll learn a lot!

    This is true, development can go in unpredictable ways :D And thanks for all the tips!
  • Stronin
    Thanks everyone for the advice. Very helpful for me in getting a realistic perspective. A mountain load of great tips! I'll be sure to start posting updates so show what I've been up to.
  • Entity
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    Entity polycounter lvl 18
    Another method is to create a vertical slice, a proof of concept level of your mod with all the features you want it to have. If you can manage that, and get good feedback from the public then you can just move on to doing the same thing till it's done.
  • Kwramm
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    Kwramm interpolator
    very good advice from Entity - in fact you can apply the proof-of-concept or prototype method to almost everything in your game. E.g. Make a single prototype character, level, UI - if it works, you can make more of the same or refine your prototype.

    Much better than what I've seen in some mods where people come up with endless ideas of how cool this and that would be, when they haven't even made a prototype to see if the core design works...

    not that it's bad to brainstorm, it's actually good. But it's easy to get sidetracked by it. Keep the "wouldn't it be cool" ideas in a drawer. You can come back to them once your prototype is done and working.
  • Stronin
    Kwramm wrote: »
    very good advice from Entity - in fact you can apply the proof-of-concept or prototype method to almost everything in your game. E.g. Make a single prototype character, level, UI - if it works, you can make more of the same or refine your prototype.

    Much better than what I've seen in some mods where people come up with endless ideas of how cool this and that would be, when they haven't even made a prototype to see if the core design works...

    not that it's bad to brainstorm, it's actually good. But it's easy to get sidetracked by it. Keep the "wouldn't it be cool" ideas in a drawer. You can come back to them once your prototype is done and working.

    Yeah, as leilei, already pointed out, even the game's original developers had problems with too much vision and too little practical application.

    Since Freelancer really was focused around ship to ship dogfights first and foremost that seems like the most logical chunk to start on first. However before I go to that point I may try doing a couple of art samples, a ship asset for instance, just to try and show what style I'll be going for later.

    Also, as I already said, for the sake of having a solid portfolio piece to show after graduation this year I'll be doing a interactive spacecraft interior for a "thesis" project.

    I'll be thinking about what I can add into that scene that would be applicable for this mod. Perhaps one of the "cool ideas" would be ship interiors you can walk around in Mass Effect style. This could be a proof of concept for that slice. That was one o the many things I think would have made Freelancer a better game. It always upset me that you were so chained to your ship.
  • Stronin
    greevar wrote: »
    Personally, I'd like to do a resurrection of Wing Commander: Privateer. I miss those types of games terribly!

    Haha, now that's going back!
  • Mr_Paris
    Oops, just realized I've been posting in my old account. Lol, anyway above comments were from me.
  • crazyfingers
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    crazyfingers polycounter lvl 10
    Ha you obviously have a fierce loyalty to space exploration Mr_Paris.

    Also Kwramm's right about feature creep, i wasn't trying to say constantly through development you should be bloating it with more and more "OMG this would be awesome!" type stuff. But constantly be thinking about creative solutions to the random problems that will inevitably pop up. Work smarter not harder, and doing mods like this you do have a lot of freedom to try new things. A lot can be said for having fun in the early days of game design and just doing what you enjoy, because you don't have a paycheck to keep you focused. You gotta ride the fun factor as long as you can. The trick is to figure out things that you're excited to implement while at the same time is feasible.
  • Mr_Paris
    Ha you obviously have a fierce loyalty to space exploration Mr_Paris.

    Also Kwramm's right about feature creep, i wasn't trying to say constantly through development you should be bloating it with more and more "OMG this would be awesome!" type stuff. But constantly be thinking about creative solutions to the random problems that will inevitably pop up. Work smarter not harder, and doing mods like this you do have a lot of freedom to try new things. A lot can be said for having fun in the early days of game design and just doing what you enjoy, because you don't have a paycheck to keep you focused. You gotta ride the fun factor as long as you can. The trick is to figure out things that you're excited to implement while at the same time is feasible.

    Indeed. Doesn't hurt any that the character Tom Paris just happens to share my last name! :)

    I think being able to jump out of the cockpit and walk into your ship a little bit would be a great way to amp up the rpg element in a game like this. I always felt claustrophobic being stuck in my ship from a 3rd person view. I wanted the character to be the avatar and not just the ship. However keep in mind that doesn't mean i plan to implement 3ps views of your character. That goes down a whole other rabbit hole of customization. It'll probably jump between 3rd person space combat to 1st person view when inside the ship. Logically most crafts would have very small interiors to walk in, but maybe for the cargo ships you could have a little more space to move about.
  • JostVice
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    JostVice polycounter lvl 12
    IMO, big mods aren't bad... if you know they are big. What i mean is sometimes it is allright to start a big project: you probably know it is too big, but if you have fun making it, get experience, work... etc, why not?

    I'm not talking about starting a topic and say 'I NEED CODE MONKEYS AND ART FOR MY GAME!' but actually start something and see where it get's to. just my opinion, you will probably have a lot of fun doing that mod though you know you'll probably never finish it, but you gain experience and skills that may help you in the future, and stuff for the portfolio :)

    if this is about making something commercial i think my idea obviusly shouldn't be applied as you will lose money :P
  • Sean VanGorder
    I only skimmed through this thread, but I wanted to throw in my two cents.

    My friends and I started working on a game last year, a "simple" game that we could throw on to steam or xbox live arcade, and soon realized we were in way over our heads.

    My best advice is to figure out the bare minimum you would like to accomplish, and then half that to find your starting goal.
  • Mr_Paris
    JostVice wrote: »
    IMO, big mods aren't bad... if you know they are big. What i mean is sometimes it is allright to start a big project: you probably know it is too big, but if you have fun making it, get experience, work... etc, why not?

    I'm not talking about starting a topic and say 'I NEED CODE MONKEYS AND ART FOR MY GAME!' but actually start something and see where it get's to. just my opinion, you will probably have a lot of fun doing that mod though you know you'll probably never finish it, but you gain experience and skills that may help you in the future, and stuff for the portfolio :)

    if this is about making something commercial i think my idea obviusly shouldn't be applied as you will lose money :P
    Nah this is a strictly on the side project. Elements of it will probably find their way into my portfolio, but otherwise it won't be a commercial project.
  • Mr_Paris
    SeanEG wrote: »
    I only skimmed through this thread, but I wanted to throw in my two cents.

    My friends and I started working on a game last year, a "simple" game that we could throw on to steam or xbox live arcade, and soon realized we were in way over our heads.

    My best advice is to figure out the bare minimum you would like to accomplish, and then half that to find your starting goal.

    What I plan to do so far is just handle little bite sized chunks of the functionality something like this would require. As pieces start to work I'll probably combine them. If they don't work then no harm done. Each element, space flight & combat, station docking. Playable cockpit spaces (You can jump out of the seat and walk inside your ship a little)

    AI enemies and faction systems, tractor beams and inventory. The list goes on. Each is a small piece of a larger puzzle. If I tried to tackle it all at once I'd give up very fast. But if I take one element at a time, bring it to a point of functionality, and then move onto the next then hopefully I'll be able to keep encouraged about working on this.
  • rooster
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    rooster mod
    I made a basic prototype with freelancery gameplay recently (set within atmosphere though). It was a lot of work.. I discontinued it because it became apparent it was beyond my scope. My game designs have changed significantly since I started actually making them hehe

    I think fine, if you have the time and dedication then make some detailed designs, but I would be very tempted to ask a question Jesse Schell poses in his book the art of game design- 'what's the stupidest I could make this game?'

    that is, the most basic version of this game that could be made, which retains the core of the idea/gameplay? Be very careful with all the cool extras you could add and consider if maybe they'd be better in a sequel once you've got the 'real' game down

    edit: this isn't just from the perspective of making the stuff in the first place btw; half the work is figuring out how on earth you make changes to this giant complex sprawling thing you've created.. simpler games can be hard enough to balance and tweak, but once you add in systems that depend on other systems etc etc it can be a nightmare. Particularly for a first/early project- keep it simple
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 19
    best thing about making a space game is you don't have to make alot of environment assets (as long as you keep the fights out in deep space)
  • Mr_Paris
    rooster wrote: »
    I made a basic prototype with freelancery gameplay recently (set within atmosphere though). It was a lot of work.. I discontinued it because it became apparent it was beyond my scope. My game designs have changed significantly since I started actually making them hehe

    I think fine, if you have the time and dedication then make some detailed designs, but I would be very tempted to ask a question Jesse Schell poses in his book the art of game design- 'what's the stupidest I could make this game?'

    that is, the most basic version of this game that could be made, which retains the core of the idea/gameplay? Be very careful with all the cool extras you could add and consider if maybe they'd be better in a sequel once you've got the 'real' game down

    edit: this isn't just from the perspective of making the stuff in the first place btw; half the work is figuring out how on earth you make changes to this giant complex sprawling thing you've created.. simpler games can be hard enough to balance and tweak, but once you add in systems that depend on other systems etc etc it can be a nightmare. Particularly for a first/early project- keep it simple

    Absolutely, hence why I'm splitting it up into bite sized pieces :)

    I'd love to hear more about your experience. What engine were you using? What was the hardest part of trying to make it work from a technical standpoint? Any detailed insight you could give about your experience would be a big help.
  • Mr_Paris
    best thing about making a space game is you don't have to make alot of environment assets (as long as you keep the fights out in deep space)

    Yup, very true, and until I'm certain this going somewhere it'll definitely be in deep space :)
  • Richard Kain
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    Richard Kain polycounter lvl 18
    Feature creep is one of your worst enemies. Keep it tight, keep it focused, keep it manageable. Trim everything down to the bare essentials, and focus on getting those working. Adding features should never be a priority, but something to do down the line. Features can always be added LATER. Getting the core game working is what needs to happen first.

    Start with the graphical elements that will actually go into the gameplay itself. For a space-flight game, this would start off with the cockpit controls, and whatever heads-up elements that this entails. You can probably use some basic textured primitives for planets and space-rocks until you refine them later. Use basic, rough filler art that gets the job done initially, and add graphical details while you are working on refining the gameplay.
  • dfacto
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    dfacto polycounter lvl 18
    Is it unrealistic to try recreating a vintage title from the ground up in a new engine?
    Absolutely yes. If it involves next-gen tech and total conversion the chances you'll finish or even get close becomes near zero. And if you do finish the quality will most likely be atrocious, even compared to the dated original.

    Why? Good modelers and programmers don't bum around on moddb looking for ways to not get paid. This leaves you with unmotivated amateurs who may or may not be hilariously bad at what they do. The only thing they'll be good at is missing milestones.

    Thus die all the TC mods in the world. RIP.

    When talking about a space mod it becomes a bit easier, which is why there were actually a fair amount of decent HW2 mods. But still if you want to do anything rivaling freespace you'll need to make a large amount of spaceship models, cockpits, effects, and space backgrounds. Right now you're thinking, "Hey, not that much!" But keep in mind that I've been on a TC mod where it took 3 years to get a shitty basic map and one decent asset into the Doom engine. However easy you think it'll be, multiply is by 10.
  • Mr_Paris
    dfacto wrote: »
    Absolutely yes. If it involves next-gen tech and total conversion the chances you'll finish or even get close becomes near zero. And if you do finish the quality will most likely be atrocious, even compared to the dated original.

    Why? Good modelers and programmers don't bum around on moddb looking for ways to not get paid. This leaves you with unmotivated amateurs who may or may not be hilariously bad at what they do. The only thing they'll be good at is missing milestones.

    Thus die all the TC mods in the world. RIP.

    When talking about a space mod it becomes a bit easier, which is why there were actually a fair amount of decent HW2 mods. But still if you want to do anything rivaling freespace you'll need to make a large amount of spaceship models, cockpits, effects, and space backgrounds. Right now you're thinking, "Hey, not that much!" But keep in mind that I've been on a TC mod where it took 3 years to get a shitty basic map and one decent asset into the Doom engine. However easy you think it'll be, multiply is by 10.

    Quite correct. For what it's worth I do have one ace up my sleeve as far as the artwork is concerned. I go to an art school here in San Fran and most of my friends are excellent model and texture people, who are pursing game/movie art careers themselves :D

    However that stage of the project won't happen until way after I prove that even a piece of this is doable, naturally. So for now the art side is a non issue until I have a proof of concept.
  • rooster
    Offline / Send Message
    rooster mod
    for me, the no.1 difficulty was getting interesting mission variety. I, like many people probably do when working on something too big, figured- hey I'll make some dynamic mission system where I set some parameters and I'll get infinite missions! brilliant!

    except, doing something which creates unlimited, interesting/enjoyable, *and controllable by designer* missions is frigging *hard*. I didn't get anywhere close, and I wasn't aiming for anything complicated. Note btw that the ongoing generated missions in freelancer were kind of just a boring exercise in grinding for cash, in my experience.

    the alternate route is of course, hand crafting every mission scenario for as long as you want the game to last. this, is a shit-ton of work, and also gonna be hard.

    second difficulty is good enemy AI. now, I'm no ai programmer, but I've got a good logic brain. but my AI structures were huge, sprawling thigns which produced alright-(ish, sort of) results, and used loads of resources. Making good AI is hard too, for something which needs to comprehend where it is in 3d space and make intelligent-looking decisions. Ok my game compounded this by having ground and mountain obstacles, but still.

    The actual flying/shooting part was probably the easiest bit, which still took a fair bit of effort, but I was happy where it got to.

    you can see where it got to over here:
    http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=17305.0
  • Mr_Paris
    rooster wrote: »
    for me, the no.1 difficulty was getting interesting mission variety. I, like many people probably do when working on something too big, figured- hey I'll make some dynamic mission system where I set some parameters and I'll get infinite missions! brilliant!

    except, doing something which creates unlimited, interesting/enjoyable, *and controllable by designer* missions is frigging *hard*. I didn't get anywhere close, and I wasn't aiming for anything complicated. Note btw that the ongoing generated missions in freelancer were kind of just a boring exercise in grinding for cash, in my experience.

    the alternate route is of course, hand crafting every mission scenario for as long as you want the game to last. this, is a shit-ton of work, and also gonna be hard.

    second difficulty is good enemy AI. now, I'm no ai programmer, but I've got a good logic brain. but my AI structures were huge, sprawling thigns which produced alright-(ish, sort of) results, and used loads of resources. Making good AI is hard too, for something which needs to comprehend where it is in 3d space and make intelligent-looking decisions. Ok my game compounded this by having ground and mountain obstacles, but still.

    The actual flying/shooting part was probably the easiest bit, which still took a fair bit of effort, but I was happy where it got to.

    you can see where it got to over here:
    http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=17305.0

    Thanks for the feedback, I'm curious, what engine were you using to implement this? Looks unityish.
  • rooster
    Offline / Send Message
    rooster mod
    I used quest3d- yeah a bit unity-ish, but PC only. visual node based programming, its great for artists to get into imo, if you don't mind the platform limitation
  • Mr_Paris
    rooster wrote: »
    I used quest3d- yeah a bit unity-ish, but PC only. visual node based programming, its great for artists to get into imo, if you don't mind the platform limitation

    Visually based hm? Similar to what Unreal Engine uses with Kismet then?
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