When should you know that a mod idea is too big to be done?
When should you know that a mod idea is too big to be done?
Is there a certain point at which the scope of a mod is simply too grand to ever be possible? How do you know when an idea may be over reaching? Is it a case by case issue or is it more about personal commitment than anything else.
An example:
I loved Freelancer back in the day. I still think it was a great space sim that made getting into the genre very simple and fun. These days, especially on newer operating systems it's getting pretty rough trying to run the game. With Microsoft owning the rights but with the original developer dissolved I don't think it's likely we'll ever see another official release again.
I'd love to make a spiritual successor to Freelancer in UDK, and do like the Silver Lining team did and resurrect an old series that's in dire need of some attention. However a part of me thinks, you're crazy to even consider such a project.
Is it unrealistic to try recreating a vintage title from the ground up in a new engine or would it simply be very ambitious? What kind of development cycle would such a project have? What are the chances it'd ever be released, and are there any tips for working on a long term mod project that should be considered?
I don't want to fool myself with happy thoughts and dreams. Lay it on me, is this just futile to even attempt?
Thanks for the input so far, I appreciate it.
An example:
I loved Freelancer back in the day. I still think it was a great space sim that made getting into the genre very simple and fun. These days, especially on newer operating systems it's getting pretty rough trying to run the game. With Microsoft owning the rights but with the original developer dissolved I don't think it's likely we'll ever see another official release again.
I'd love to make a spiritual successor to Freelancer in UDK, and do like the Silver Lining team did and resurrect an old series that's in dire need of some attention. However a part of me thinks, you're crazy to even consider such a project.
Is it unrealistic to try recreating a vintage title from the ground up in a new engine or would it simply be very ambitious? What kind of development cycle would such a project have? What are the chances it'd ever be released, and are there any tips for working on a long term mod project that should be considered?
I don't want to fool myself with happy thoughts and dreams. Lay it on me, is this just futile to even attempt?
Thanks for the input so far, I appreciate it.
Replies
You will know that a mod idea is too big when you have no experience doing anything even remotely close to something that big.
Start small. Very small. Then work towards something large. Iteratively grow.
If you shoot for the moon on the first try you wind up knowing nothing about flight and blow up on the ground.
having worked on a lot of failed projects and a few which are doing ok, the principal question to ask yourself, is what your skills and abilities are, and how much of the actual development you'd be able to handle yourself. The actual capabilities of core members seems to have a pretty profound effect on how well a small scale project fares, because the original minds behind it have the expertise needed to guide development and more importantly, lead by example.
The second worst culprit is having all these wild ideas that require coding but being unable to do it yourself so you go around forums asking for help and getting no one cause they're all working for other mods or professionally.
Finally the worst of the worst is a mod leader who just gives orders and does none of the work.
I also suggest keeping the team small and somehow guarantee they can always be contacted aka mobile phone. Nothing worse than a team member that's vanished who was supposed to finish something so another member can continue. Oh also using one of those FTP (they're called something else I believe) things to transfer files to each other is a plus.
Basically if you really want to create this idea then you have to put a lot of effort into it. Do you have lots of knowledge on UDK? The best start is for you to be able to make a rough prototype that's playable, ugly but something for other members who join you to work on. Good luck.
I've been involved with mods since Unreal 2k4, however it was usually limited in scope, new levels, and custom vehicles. Good points you've made. Thanks.
Sorry I may have phrased that badly. I would in no way be making a carbon copy of freelancer. That would definitely be pointless! Totally agree with you, especially on the point of leading by example!
I have a functional knowledge of UDK, and have done some levels on it however nothing with this scope. Good point about prototyping, I agree doing something ugly but functional is a definite first step. After all, all the art in the world and no code won't get you anywhere.
I think the biggest thing I'm worried about is coding, not being a code monkey myself. I agree with you something like this would take a lot of commitment.
I think overall I view this as a long term goal. In the short term, over the course of this year I'm planning to create an interactive ship interior as a starting point before even considering any bigger plans. This interior will give a lot of fun nods to the Freelancer universe and be kind of a launching pad into a larger project.
Right now, strictly mapping, deathmatch levels. So not a ton, and presently definitely not enough to just throw together a fully functional game without some serious research.
Right now I'm thinking of starting with an interactive space craft interior. Seeing where that goes, and trying to keep a realistic sense of what's possible.
Yeah it's in my top 3 favorite games list personally. Never has a title managed to get me coming back to it for so long. Seems like every time I'm sure I'm done playing it something sparks my interest and I'm back. It's just a shame it's been pretty much forgotten about as a series.
The mod community around it has done some really great stuff too, considering the limitations. Just the idea of seeing a corsair flying through space with all the power of UDK running it is enough for me to want to do a project like this.
help make free mmo on Source 4 free plz
By the way, remember that Freelancer was one of the most ambitious games ever developed in 1999-2003. The scope was too wide for even Digital Anvil themselves so they had to reduce it drastically to get into realistic, reachable plans for a completed game. Unfortunately with today's market selling out to small attention spans, commercial demand for a new Starflight-ish isn't worth the effort. It'll go into a bin of obscurity unless some hipster indie 'simple' art style was pushed on it, then it'll get some mild media attention. Maybe.
Oh I'm fully aware of the monster that Unreal can be. Sometimes it can be helpful to have others put your feet back on the ground, that's all.
And you're quite right about it's tough development history. This game was a beast to tame even when it was first released and was definitely in some ways a victim of it's own scope.
All the more reason to exercise extreme caution and take some serious baby steps first.
Consider everything in a the game you want to do. Ask yourself if you are willing to create all of that. If so, then move forward. If not, reduce scope. The keyword there is "willing". Sometimes you can get help, but the moment you count on it is the death of your project.
Wise words!
It's pretty obvious to me that right now this is completely beyond my means. But despite that, looking forward, this is something I would really like to do. I guess what that means for now is taking baby steps in the right direction. Prototyping ideas, building some levels to establish look and feel, as well as considering just what it is I want to make, in detail.
Maybe I'll never be able to make the game in it's entirety, but really, even if I could just make one star system that captures a piece what made it's predecessor great then I think I'd be happy.
You like freelancer? maybe make a space multiplayer combat game.
Quite true! And that's a good idea as well.
Toys for Bob started small. Not everyone can be David Braben from their first year of games development.
Start small with a workable core game idea. Stay focused, don't get sidetracked or lost in details. Make sure the core game works. Then polish and expand on that.
Having a good plan of how development should progress is essential. Having a feature list and sticking to it is also a good tool to avoid getting sidetracked.
A well polished working game, no matter how small scale it is, is worth more than all the hundreds (thousands?) of over ambitious mods that never got finished at all. At least you completed something and have a base to build upon... as long as you got a working v1, you can still add more features in v2.
Making a space combat sim is actually a good starting point for a game in.. well.. anything. It has all the main elements of any game, movement, bounding volumes, collision detection, even AI and or multiplayer if you want to have opponents.
If you want to complete something, focus on a part of that game you liked. Your favorite location, for instance. And then, there might be a small chance the project inspires others and the mod grows.
But starting out to do everything is proverbial suicide.
In Dutch, there's a saying - "wie het kleine niet eert, is het grote niet weerd" - which literally means "those who don't honor the small, aren't worth the large". Or more colloquially, "he that can not keep a penny shall never have many".
As others have said you'll likely fail if this is your initial scope, but that's fine I think. Good game design isn't about having the perfect concept from the start, it's about saying constantly saying, "wouldn't it be cool if..." throughout the development of the mod. It's an incredibly iterative process, and if you're going to make it to the end with a tangible game, you need to be able to roll with the punches and adapt to what you find you're actually able to accomplish with the tools at hand.
A lot of the skills required just comes from trial and error, no ammount of planning will prevent this. Though practicing planning throughout developement is important too. It's hard to describe, but if you jump in head first and work hard at it you'll sorta figure it out on your own, so just jump in!
Just keep things dynamic and expandable. Figure out ways to keep components of the gameplay isolated and not too ingrained in other systems so you can grow through development of the game and you don't have to scrap it mid way and start over.
One of the biggest hurdles i think everyone finds early on is how to integrate UI into their game. Try to figure this out early, learn the limitations of what you can do with it. But start with something fun, like figuring out how to make a ship fly around and move on from there.
So basically, you may start out wanting to remake freelancer, and end up with an FPS where you fly through hoops for points, that's just how it goes. But you'll learn a lot!
I wanted to make a "rock and roll racing" mod in space not long ago with custom ships and giant asteroids flying around. Custom ships and all that crap, it was very ambitious considering my lack of game design experience, and i think i pulled most of it off actually and learned a sh*tton. The REALLY hard part about making custom content, is finding ways to get people to actually play it!
Thanks so much, that's great insight.
This is true, development can go in unpredictable ways
Much better than what I've seen in some mods where people come up with endless ideas of how cool this and that would be, when they haven't even made a prototype to see if the core design works...
not that it's bad to brainstorm, it's actually good. But it's easy to get sidetracked by it. Keep the "wouldn't it be cool" ideas in a drawer. You can come back to them once your prototype is done and working.
Yeah, as leilei, already pointed out, even the game's original developers had problems with too much vision and too little practical application.
Since Freelancer really was focused around ship to ship dogfights first and foremost that seems like the most logical chunk to start on first. However before I go to that point I may try doing a couple of art samples, a ship asset for instance, just to try and show what style I'll be going for later.
Also, as I already said, for the sake of having a solid portfolio piece to show after graduation this year I'll be doing a interactive spacecraft interior for a "thesis" project.
I'll be thinking about what I can add into that scene that would be applicable for this mod. Perhaps one of the "cool ideas" would be ship interiors you can walk around in Mass Effect style. This could be a proof of concept for that slice. That was one o the many things I think would have made Freelancer a better game. It always upset me that you were so chained to your ship.
Haha, now that's going back!
Also Kwramm's right about feature creep, i wasn't trying to say constantly through development you should be bloating it with more and more "OMG this would be awesome!" type stuff. But constantly be thinking about creative solutions to the random problems that will inevitably pop up. Work smarter not harder, and doing mods like this you do have a lot of freedom to try new things. A lot can be said for having fun in the early days of game design and just doing what you enjoy, because you don't have a paycheck to keep you focused. You gotta ride the fun factor as long as you can. The trick is to figure out things that you're excited to implement while at the same time is feasible.
Indeed. Doesn't hurt any that the character Tom Paris just happens to share my last name!
I think being able to jump out of the cockpit and walk into your ship a little bit would be a great way to amp up the rpg element in a game like this. I always felt claustrophobic being stuck in my ship from a 3rd person view. I wanted the character to be the avatar and not just the ship. However keep in mind that doesn't mean i plan to implement 3ps views of your character. That goes down a whole other rabbit hole of customization. It'll probably jump between 3rd person space combat to 1st person view when inside the ship. Logically most crafts would have very small interiors to walk in, but maybe for the cargo ships you could have a little more space to move about.
I'm not talking about starting a topic and say 'I NEED CODE MONKEYS AND ART FOR MY GAME!' but actually start something and see where it get's to. just my opinion, you will probably have a lot of fun doing that mod though you know you'll probably never finish it, but you gain experience and skills that may help you in the future, and stuff for the portfolio
if this is about making something commercial i think my idea obviusly shouldn't be applied as you will lose money :P
My friends and I started working on a game last year, a "simple" game that we could throw on to steam or xbox live arcade, and soon realized we were in way over our heads.
My best advice is to figure out the bare minimum you would like to accomplish, and then half that to find your starting goal.
What I plan to do so far is just handle little bite sized chunks of the functionality something like this would require. As pieces start to work I'll probably combine them. If they don't work then no harm done. Each element, space flight & combat, station docking. Playable cockpit spaces (You can jump out of the seat and walk inside your ship a little)
AI enemies and faction systems, tractor beams and inventory. The list goes on. Each is a small piece of a larger puzzle. If I tried to tackle it all at once I'd give up very fast. But if I take one element at a time, bring it to a point of functionality, and then move onto the next then hopefully I'll be able to keep encouraged about working on this.
I think fine, if you have the time and dedication then make some detailed designs, but I would be very tempted to ask a question Jesse Schell poses in his book the art of game design- 'what's the stupidest I could make this game?'
that is, the most basic version of this game that could be made, which retains the core of the idea/gameplay? Be very careful with all the cool extras you could add and consider if maybe they'd be better in a sequel once you've got the 'real' game down
edit: this isn't just from the perspective of making the stuff in the first place btw; half the work is figuring out how on earth you make changes to this giant complex sprawling thing you've created.. simpler games can be hard enough to balance and tweak, but once you add in systems that depend on other systems etc etc it can be a nightmare. Particularly for a first/early project- keep it simple
Absolutely, hence why I'm splitting it up into bite sized pieces
I'd love to hear more about your experience. What engine were you using? What was the hardest part of trying to make it work from a technical standpoint? Any detailed insight you could give about your experience would be a big help.
Yup, very true, and until I'm certain this going somewhere it'll definitely be in deep space
Start with the graphical elements that will actually go into the gameplay itself. For a space-flight game, this would start off with the cockpit controls, and whatever heads-up elements that this entails. You can probably use some basic textured primitives for planets and space-rocks until you refine them later. Use basic, rough filler art that gets the job done initially, and add graphical details while you are working on refining the gameplay.
Why? Good modelers and programmers don't bum around on moddb looking for ways to not get paid. This leaves you with unmotivated amateurs who may or may not be hilariously bad at what they do. The only thing they'll be good at is missing milestones.
Thus die all the TC mods in the world. RIP.
When talking about a space mod it becomes a bit easier, which is why there were actually a fair amount of decent HW2 mods. But still if you want to do anything rivaling freespace you'll need to make a large amount of spaceship models, cockpits, effects, and space backgrounds. Right now you're thinking, "Hey, not that much!" But keep in mind that I've been on a TC mod where it took 3 years to get a shitty basic map and one decent asset into the Doom engine. However easy you think it'll be, multiply is by 10.
Quite correct. For what it's worth I do have one ace up my sleeve as far as the artwork is concerned. I go to an art school here in San Fran and most of my friends are excellent model and texture people, who are pursing game/movie art careers themselves
However that stage of the project won't happen until way after I prove that even a piece of this is doable, naturally. So for now the art side is a non issue until I have a proof of concept.
except, doing something which creates unlimited, interesting/enjoyable, *and controllable by designer* missions is frigging *hard*. I didn't get anywhere close, and I wasn't aiming for anything complicated. Note btw that the ongoing generated missions in freelancer were kind of just a boring exercise in grinding for cash, in my experience.
the alternate route is of course, hand crafting every mission scenario for as long as you want the game to last. this, is a shit-ton of work, and also gonna be hard.
second difficulty is good enemy AI. now, I'm no ai programmer, but I've got a good logic brain. but my AI structures were huge, sprawling thigns which produced alright-(ish, sort of) results, and used loads of resources. Making good AI is hard too, for something which needs to comprehend where it is in 3d space and make intelligent-looking decisions. Ok my game compounded this by having ground and mountain obstacles, but still.
The actual flying/shooting part was probably the easiest bit, which still took a fair bit of effort, but I was happy where it got to.
you can see where it got to over here:
http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=17305.0
Thanks for the feedback, I'm curious, what engine were you using to implement this? Looks unityish.
Visually based hm? Similar to what Unreal Engine uses with Kismet then?