Here's something weird, the congresswoman who got shot has a youtube channel, and only 2 subsciptions. One being her murderers. Did they know eachother?
Here's something weird, the congresswoman who got shot has a youtube channel, and only 2 subsciptions. One being her murderers. Did they know eachother?
Just like alcoholics shouldn't work in bars unstable people prone to violence probably shouldn't tune into right wing media. I'm not saying the tea party or republicans where behind this or that anyone other than this nutter was responsible for his actions, but they have to understand that some of the people that listen to them take them seriously and at face value.
They succeeded in firing up their base, a little too much... Who would of thought that using a hot button issue like gun control as a tent pole in just about every circus they ran in would lead someone down a dark path... I mean what are the odds? What do you expect when the sound bites amount to you have the right to bare arms, you should exercise your right.
I'm some weird breed of American that believes people should have the right to guns but that responsibility compassion and common sense should be a persons first and last weapons when engaged in any kind of debate. The only time weapon should be used is in self defense. Too often I've seen and heard the opposite and I live in a left leaning state, I can only imagine what it's like in other states caught in fight for the "states political soul".
Think the tea party line needs to be:
"Just because I make thinnly veiled threats doesn't mean I wanted people to carry them out, I mean I just really wanted into office and thought if I talked tough I wouldn't have to come up with actual workable solutions, we are sorry for ramping up the hate machine,next time we will win by putting the best idea forward instead of just relying on emotion... Especially the wrong kind."
It doesn't help that Arizona had the most relaxed gun laws of the boarder states and one of the core problems fueling the Mexican drug cartels and boarder violence... is cheap and accessible firearms from the US... Now where could they be getting those guns from...
Again not saying people can't have guns but maybe we need to make sure that mentally ill people who the army rejects don't have access... at least legally. Maybe we should do more to make sure drugs don't flow north and guns flow south? Maybe the "pry my shotgun from cold dead hands" people need to realize that some regulation to make sure that assault rifles aren't flowing into mexico is a good thing... Oh but that's a slippery slope and "patriots don't compromise even if it means their own demise".
+ the US can just stop selling guns, this doesn't happen in countries without guns.
/flamecoat.
True, it doesn't happen with guns. Instead, it usually happens with bombs. In their 25 year campaign, the IRA killed 115 people in Britain and wounded 2134 more, despite Britain's much stricter laws governing firearms. Numbers via wikipedia.
Just like alcoholics shouldn't work in bars unstable people prone to violence probably shouldn't tune into right wing media. I'm not saying the tea party or republicans where behind this or that anyone other than this nutter was responsible for his actions, but they have to understand that some of the people that listen to them take them seriously and at face value.
They succeeded in firing up their base, a little too much... Who would of thought that using a hot button issue like gun control as a tent pole in just about every circus they ran in would lead someone down a dark path... I mean what are the odds? What do you expect when the sound bites amount to you have the right to bare arms, you should exercise your right.
I'm some weird breed of American that believes people should have the right to guns but that responsibility compassion and common sense should be a persons first and last weapons when engaged in any kind of debate. The only time weapon should be used is in self defense. Too often I've seen and heard the opposite and I live in a left leaning state, I can only imagine what it's like in other states caught in fight for the "states political soul".
Think the tea party line needs to be:
"Just because I make thinnly veiled threats doesn't mean I wanted people to carry them out, I mean I just really wanted into office and thought if I talked tough I wouldn't have to come up with actual workable solutions, we are sorry for ramping up the hate machine,next time we will win by putting the best idea forward instead of just relying on emotion... Especially the wrong kind."
Holy shit, I agree with this completely and entirely. Let me make a note of this blessed occurrence on my calendar
It doesn't help that Arizona had the most relaxed gun laws of the boarder states and one of the core problems fueling the Mexican drug cartels and boarder violence... is cheap and accessible firearms from the US... Now where could they be getting those guns from...
Again not saying people can't have guns but maybe we need to make sure that mentally ill people who the army rejects don't have access... at least legally. Maybe we should do more to make sure drugs don't flow north and guns flow south? Maybe the "pry my shotgun from cold dead hands" people need to realize that some regulation to make sure that assault rifles aren't flowing into mexico is a good thing... Oh but that's a slippery slope and "patriots don't compromise even if it means their own demise".
Yes, pretty much. The problem isn't guns, the problem is not taking care to help people with serious mental issues. I've read multiple articles with people saying the knew the shooter was crazy, but almost nothing was done about it. As you mentioned, anyone the army refuses to enlist in a time of war may not be someone you sell a gun to, 2nd Amendment or not.
If it were up to me, you'd have to get a firearms license just like you get a drivers license: mandatory classes and training, a practical exam with a law enforcement officer, a photo ID in a connected national database, and all weapons in your possession must be registered.
Inevitably, this is the problem with America today. Maybe just human nature at that. This was not politically motivated, and anyone who says so just is out for the opportunism that comes with the baseless accusations that either left or right "inspired" this lone nut job into action. Ultimately we are human beings that can choose between right and wrong. Blaming talk show hosts or banning guns does not solve anything. We have the responsibility to make the right decisions and we are held accountable for our actions, unstable or not.
Inevitably, this is the problem with America today. Maybe just human nature at that. This was not politically motivated, and anyone who says so just is out for the opportunism that comes with the baseless accusations that either left or right "inspired" this lone nut job into action. Ultimately we are human beings that can choose between right and wrong. Blaming talk show hosts or banning guns does not solve anything. We have the responsibility to make the right decisions and we are held accountable for our actions, unstable or not.
I think banning guns would do alot. Something ment to kill people shouldn't be pretty much freely available in a store.
I think banning guns would do alot. Something ment to kill people shouldn't be pretty much freely available in a store.
People will find ways to get them anyways. Punishing the responsible that otherwise use guns for defense is not really solving anything. We just have a difference in opinion.
People will find ways to get them anyways. Punishing the responsible that otherwise use guns for defense is not really solving anything. We just have a difference in opinion.
I think banning guns would do alot. Something ment to kill people shouldn't be pretty much freely available in a store.
Freely available at the store, or on the street. Either way, it's going to be freely available. Might as well make it stores, where they can ask for IDs, not sell it to minors, and (hopefully, it may have helped in this case) not sell it to mentally unstable people.
It works. Accountability is not punishing responsible members of society by placing unacceptable restraints on their ability to defend themselves. It is also oppressive as well.
Inevitably, this is the problem with America today. Maybe just human nature at that. This was not politically motivated, and anyone who says so just is out for the opportunism that comes with the baseless accusations that either left or right "inspired" this lone nut job into action. Ultimately we are human beings that can choose between right and wrong. Blaming talk show hosts or banning guns does not solve anything. We have the responsibility to make the right decisions and we are held accountable for our actions, unstable or not.
At the end of the day, it really takes someone who's pretty unstable to actually carry out horrible acts like these. Their motives behind it are essentially irrelevant.
With that said, I really think that there ought to be more scrutiny on people running for office and certain individuals in the media. The things some of these people say absolutely blow my mind at how bad the political situation in America has become. It seems like each month that goes by, the dialog in the country becomes less and less about the actual issues, and the mudslinging and defamation of the "other guys" is the central platform of both parties.
It really makes me wonder, they're called the United states, but it sort of makes me wonder if that's really only a name these days. Seems like America is more divided than it's ever been in my life.
Inevitably, this is the problem with America today. Maybe just human nature at that. This was not politically motivated, and anyone who says so just is out for the opportunism that comes with the baseless accusations that either left or right "inspired" this lone nut job into action. Ultimately we are human beings that can choose between right and wrong. Blaming talk show hosts or banning guns does not solve anything. We have the responsibility to make the right decisions and we are held accountable for our actions, unstable or not.
We also have to realize the way in which we stir up support for our causes, the words we use and the themes we wrap ourselves with while we preform on the world stage have direct consequences. When you speak with such a loud megaphone to those right around you, your message will travel to unintended ears. Like Verm noted this guy needed help and a lot of people including the army saw it and did very little. How the guy passed a background check and a waiting period is amazing... How does "too crazy for the military" not end up on a background check?
Yes the shooting is all on him, it was his call to make and even if he was inundated with a crazy media blitz over the last 2 years he could of shut it off and walked away. But he didn't, and people need to realize that they aren't just talking to lazy, apathetic voters and that saying some pretty extreme things, aimed at waking up and stirring a nomrally apathetic person into action (voting), moved this guy who was already wired and jittery into hyper action.
If you can't filter your message to just the people you want to talk to that you know can handle your message, then maybe you need to dial it down a few notches so the crazies don't go off the deep end. It's not censorship, its consideration. It's being a responsible citizen in the society and world you live in. When people liken back to stalward news anchors of bygone eras they aren't looking for a left leaning media to save them with their hippy ideals they're looking for someone who thinks before they speak and tempers their statements and tries harder to strain out their bias than trying to pump it in.
I personally would love to go back to when bias wasn't the soup de jour but the rat you chased out of the kitchen.
Take the entertainment out of the news.
So far any attempt to bring back rational debate has been met with "Oh calm down Marry your panties are in twist we're just having fun" Yea well tell that to the 9 yr old. There needs to be some soul searching going on and people need to come to the realization that freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of whatever you throw around.
Personally at this point, I'll take a tree hugging, bulldoze chaining pot smoking extremist over this shit any day. Peace love and not shooting each other in the head sounds pretty good to me...
I apologized for jumping to conclusions but to assume there's absolutely no chance that this was politically motivated is to do the same.
We've been talking about political rhetoric here that goes out to millions, the most profitable radio shows with the most loyal base are ones that incite the most fear and anger.
There seems to be a consensus here, "guns should only be used for defense", but that's exactly the problem. Too many talking heads are making their money and power by riling up the population with fear mixed with strong, violent language. It may take a truly disturbed individuals with delusional thoughts about reality to kill prominent public figures in such a way, but such thoughts are reinforced by aggression and fear mongering so popular today in American politics.
Glenn Beck said he was "thinking about killing Michael Moore" and pondered whether "I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it," before concluding: "No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out -- is this wrong?"
We also have to realize the way in which we stir up support for our causes, the words we use and the themes we wrap ourselves with while we preform on the world stage have direct consequences. When you speak with such a loud megaphone to those right around you, your message will travel to unintended targets.
Yes the shooting is all on him, it was his call to make and even if he was inundated with a crazy media blitz over the last 2 years he could of shut it off and walked away. But he didn't, and people need to realize that they aren't just talking to lazy, apathetic voters saying some pretty extreme things that is aimed at waking up and stirring a nomrally apathetic person into action (voting), moved this guy who was already wired and jittery into hyper action.
So far any attempt to bring back rational debate has been met with "Oh calm down Marry your panties are in twist we're just having fun" Yea well tell that to the 9 yr old. There needs to be some soul searching going on and people need to come to the realization that freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of whatever you throw around.
Personally at this point, I'll take a tree hugging, bulldoze chaining pot smoking extremist over this shit any day. Peace love and not shooting each other in the head sounds pretty good to me...
Damn dude. 100% agreed. Strange day indeed...
But yeah, this is exactly why I left all that stuff. It was all nice and talking about change, more civil rights, less corruption in government and all that. But then at some point, Foxnews and co, you know, people like Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin and Ann Coulter started taking over and saying some really out-there stuff. Like how women shouldn't vote (That's Coulter saying that), and I just couldn't take it anymore.
What are they defending themselves from ? I don't understand. Isn't this why we have the police?
Who is there to police the police? The Government? are you kidding me? When someone breaks into your home and you have seconds to react, the police are only minutes away. This is a saying but it is true. Close your eyes, wish away all of the evil in the world but what changes? what truly changes? Violence will happen regardless if there are guns or no guns.
Personally at this point, I'll take a tree hugging, bulldoze chaining pot smoking extremist over this shit any day. Peace love and not shooting each other in the head sounds pretty good to me...
Remember the nut job extremist who held the Discovery Network hostage with a list of demands for the Environment? Hell, even the IRS bomber. If you look more closely into their beliefs, they were just nut jobs who went off the deep end. And frankly, their views were more left oriented then right from what I read. But again, this is just crazytalk. People have the choice of doing things like this. You may feel "influenced" but ultimately to place the blame on influence from another is just plain unacceptable and irresponsible.
I mean this guy was fearing "mind control" over the populace..that is just comedy. The last time I checked, mind control was not at the highest priority of a TEA party supporter.
The left and right has it's own extremists. This debate is NOT about political ideology, but a lone nut who went off the deep end. I can't understand why people are using this as a means for political opportunism. I guess the Right did it when that lone environmental whack job took the Discovery building hostage with his list of gross demands.
Talk radio is not a one way street. People forget very fast how bad things were during the Bush years, but now it seems to be anathema to people about the things they hear on the radio from people on the right. Polarization has caused a lot of this anger; including what we hear over the airwaves. The more we start to drift to an authoritarian Government that controls others and creeps more into a single party rule, you are going to have this kind of stuff happening. It is inevitable with free society. Even in Europe there are assassinations and murders of political candidates. Most of these countries lack individual rights to even own a gun, and yet the violence still happens. Who said something about the IRA and it's bombs as a means to resistance instead of a gun shooting rampage was exactly right. Nothing is solved, in fact more violence just happens because of it.
In the end, people need to accept responsibility for their actions, and not simply point the finger at someone else. Especially since as I know and am concerned I have never heard of any right wing radio talk host going off the deep end and committing horrible violent acts like this. To relate this insane killer with talk show is just pure crazy talk. Yes the rhetoric is bad right now from the left AND right. People get fed up with the polarization of one side over the other and nothing gets solved.
I'm never going to try and point out a liberal who encouraged violent acts. No point.
And I never justified any kind of murder, or any kind of hate speech. Conservative or not.
The guy who did this should be put down. It is tragic what happened, but even more farcical and disappointing how the media has largely used this as fuel against a "hate filled right wing airwave" climate. It's total nonsense. I remember all the anger and rage after the Bush tax cuts were extended- even far back when Bush was in Office, and yet conveniently people seem to forget about all of that. That is what is so maddening. The hypocrisy of it all astounds me into disgust. Whoever said they feel so pulled into political apathy because of this climate we have allowed ourselves to breed is right on. That is the nature of the game and it has been that way since the start of Government. Nothing is going to change.
Glenn Beck said he was "thinking about killing Michael Moore" and pondered whether "I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it," before concluding: "No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out -- is this wrong?"
I don't watch Glenn Beck but I doubt he was serious at all with that statement. These talk show hosts are not just political talking heads...they are entertainers...I have even heard some pretty far out there statements from the likes of people like Keith Olberman and Rachel Maddow, hell even Bill Maher. But when they grin halfway with a smirk after they say something outrageous, I am sure it was never intended to be harmful.
Anyone remember back not so long ago a cartoonist was talking about open violent revolution, a left winged self proclaimed activist at that?
The problem, ultimately again is jumping to conclusions.
Our ideas our our ideas until we choose to act upon them. Our responsibility is paramount. I don't buy this notion that another's words are responsible for another's actions, even in a small part. Sure, people are driven to extremism by others words but to hold the person they admired accountable for a crime, a violent one at that is just irresponsible to me.
Were any of the white men who blew up buildings in America, crashed planes into IRS buildings, and shot abortion doctors considered terrorists?
Timothy Mcveigh was. The IRS bomber as well. What about the "Right wing extremism" report that was brought forth not too long after the very first TEA party back in 2009?
Again, total hypocrisy.
Maybe if the person who was shot had a (R) next to her name people would jump to conclusions just as easily. The irony, was that Gabrielle supported measures the state of Arizona felt was necessary to curb the tide of illegal immigration, oh my god! Was this automatically why the gun man chose to plan to kill her? of course not.
I read some story where the deranged shooter asked her a question a while back "what do words mean and how can you prove them" or something to that effect, She responded in Spanish and perhaps he had some sort of made up agenda against her since then. Who knows? More likely this guy was just a total nut job that chose to put his focus on one person, whether ending that person's life had an agenda behind it is not really clear at all.
Bottom line is, totally tragic event, and even worse it is being used as cannon fodder for the media. That is totally irresponsible reporting.
I agree with what Mark said.
"Take the comedy and entertainment out of the news".
My point is that you're saying that there are violent people on both sides, and that equating the people that support bombing of abortion clinics with the entire party is ridiculous.
Well, consider the rhetoric of the people in power in the right wing hemisphere, and the spokes people of the party who condone violence and hatred of people who are different (an extreme form of conservative).
Were any of the white men who blew up buildings in America, crashed planes into IRS buildings, and shot abortion doctors considered terrorists? No. But Muslims are outright smeared as terrorists because they want to build something in NEW YORK CITY that's too close to ground zero? That's bullshit.
That's the difference.
Not arguing with you on that. You're absolutely right, and it's bullshit.
So... now what? I guess I'm having a bit of a hard time grasping you guys' end-message. So yeah, Republicans (the leadership) are a-holes. Do you suggest we take away their freedom of speech? I mean, we allow Nazis to hold rallies, and for sure we all disagree with those folks 100%. So yeah, you got politicians saying bad stuff. I don't see what we can do other than ignore it.
I'm just not sure I see the point of the whole Republicans are a-holes, and Democrats are compassionate debate. At the end of the day it seems like us, the people, get screwed either way.
Find quotes of liberal representatives and media spokes people encouraging violence, rather than expressing anger.
Public outrage is not the same as people WITH POWER encouraging violence.
I didn't give a shit about the skin heads in Russia beating up and killing Muslims until I realized that politicians and media personnel have been on record, tacitly approving of such acts.
Find me quotes of Olbermann or Maddow encouraging violence. I dare you. Maddow coming even close to saying she would kill someone? Are you f****** joking?
That's the difference.
Looks like someone needs to cool down their own rhetoric before any more debate.
I refuse to argue with people who flare and argue with emotion alone. Do your own research and try not to limit the scope of your entire world to the left equates to angels, the right equates to the Devil.
So yeah, Republicans (the leadership) are a-holes. Do you suggest we take away their freedom of speech?
Exactly. Both parties really just suck though. To cry out the Republican leadership is a bunch of A holes is really just a narrow part of the bigger picture. I remember all too well the Bush years and even now, the past 2 with the Democrats in charge. Their polarization and inflammatory rhetoric has not helped any at all either. Again, this is just all so tiring.
Yeah, I'm not. Not at all. Let's just ignore the fact that right wingers bring assault rifles to protests, while their political figure heads encourage violence.
So a left winged cartoonist suggesting violent revolution does not count?
The fact is, the largest supporters of the 2nd amendment come from the Right. What is your point Super Happy Cow? That anyone who supports the right to bear arms as a potential and deadly threat to our safety? What if it is more about the message of our right, and duty as Americans to fight for what our founders fought for us to have as a last resort to Government tyranny and protection of an individual?
Let's just equate that with liberals releasing a report that states conservative groups are more prone to acts of terrorism, when the report itself was ordered by the Bush administration.
Ironic how it came out the very day of the first post-Obama TEA party wouldn't you say?
I'm getting irritated because you're equating two things that are diametrically opposed.
Not even sure what you are talking about. A tragedy happened and people are being quick to point fingers at individuals whose job is to otherwise comment on political happenings today and make the occasional joke, you mean that?
The problem is that you guys aren't acknowledging that those guys are part of the problem.
Nazis aren't elected officials, but our own get away with saying stuff that's at least half as horrid, yet you guys are pretending that lib politicians and conservative politicians are the same.
No, read carefully. I said several times that, especially in the tea party, there has been a hi-jacking of the higher-ranks by complete idiots. People doing the stuff you're saying here.
Again, I totally 100% agree with you guys on that.
What they're doing is bullshit. But I don't see any way of dealing with it that's not draconian. Best we can do is treat them like the idiots that they are.
As to your second point:
"yet you guys are pretending that lib politicians and conservative politicians are the same."
I don't think you're getting to the bottom of my mind here. I'm not saying they're the same as in, completely identical, talking about the same exact things etc.
I'm saying they're the same in the degree of bullshit that comes out of their mouths. Granted, it's different types of bullshit.
You have the Ann Coulter types saying women shouldn't vote. And you have Bill Maher saying that the united states needs to be more totalitarian, like China. Yeah, he said that, I'll go dig up the youtube video if I have to, but I really don't feel like it. It was in relation to how Obama and co. were bending over to the Republicans on the healthcare debate.
Or Christians calling for bombing of abortion clinics, and environmentalists bombing research facilities and homes of scientists who experiment on animals.
Again, those are different things, of course. But the degree of bullshit is the same I find on both sides. How much fear mongering is there in Republican circles about the country taking a "sharp left turn" or turning into Communism? And how much fear mongering is there in the liberal media about people clinging to guns and bibles?
It's just all bullshit man. Yeah, they're saying different things. But it's the same shit, different toilet.
Doesn't have power exactly, but I am not sure I understand your premises. Does Sarah Palin hold any political power anymore?
People saying there have been zero left wing radical groups and extremists acting out against the Government and issues? uhhh..
Where have you guys been during the 60's? Where were you doing the Bush years?
It doesn't matter if Glenn Beck was serious about what he says. What matters is that biased media sells better and gets more viewers than neutural, or moderately biased media, and when someone takes REAL life, and toys around with it as if he's just some entertainer, then we have a problem.
Slippery slope. How much "free" speech should be allowed? Biased and opinionated news does sell better, you are right. Maybe that is why our news stations in America do so well. MSNBC and FOX have the same kind of idea. It is all in the bend to the stories that matter.
Glenn Beck says constantly on his show that the Obama government is coming to take right wingers' guns, and when cops wound up getting gunned down for visiting someone's house, who just happened to be a rabid viewer of Glenn Beck, you think it's a coincidence?
When Bill O'Reilly says that George Tiller, an abortion doctor, must be stopped at all costs, then he is executed by a fan of Bill O'Reilly's show, you think that's just happenstance?
It seems like you just hate Glen Beck more then anything. I can't really see what you are arguing unless I have the context of what he said and when. Not that I don't believe you, it's just that all too often today people are very quick to jump to "their" side, my guy or gal said this, the other person said this...it becomes very clouded to argue after that because words can mean many different things. Sometimes the context from which some things are said is not understood at first.
A good example to counter yours was the Discovery channel hostage taker. He had some pretty far left extremest views on the Environment, could I lump the entire green movement with his lone actions that humans must be killed off as much as possible so the Earth can be saved?
- The same as you equate wrongly anyone who shows up with a gun as more of a symbol for the right, as long as they are responsible AND sane to own one for home protection, etc, as some kind of lunatic that does it to show off they are ready to kill?
I don't buy this notion that another's words are responsible for another's actions, even in a small part. Sure, people are driven to extremism by others words but to hold the person they admired accountable for a crime, a violent one at that is just irresponsible to me.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that we try Glen Beck or whatever wacko this guy thought was Jesus. What I'm suggesting is that maybe idiots that tend to speak pretty loudly and angrily to wake up very old voters who are very apathetic, should probably understand that is not all they are talking to. It's like using a shot of adrenaline to snap someone out a near death experience and accidentally giving it to the twitchy junky instead.
If you want to talk about compare nutters from both sides I actually do like the Discovery guy a little better. He took hostages, had a list of demands and didn't actually hurt anyone, who knows what he had planned it to end but he wanted to be heard more than inflict violence which at least gave the police time to stop him. This Arizona nutter, was nothing but "I'm killing some people today where's my gun bam bam bam".
If you want to talk about the IRS bomber, that whole mad as hell at the government over taxes thing falls more in line with who now exactly?
But all this is getting away from my point that, maybe heavily biased media aimed at getting lazy apathetic voters off their asses and out to the polls is a little too hot for the nut jobs to handle. When you talk to everyone on the planet you have to keep in mind that you're audience isn't just you and your buddies. It's everyone and the crazy crap you cook up can have a profound impact on people.
The whole it's just words they don't effect people, is pure bullshit deflection by the people who don't want to put down some of the only cards they know how to play.
People can be stirred up and beaten into a frenzy and that is EXACTLY what has been happening over the last few years. Considering he felt like he had to target a high profile political figure I would say politics might have something to do with it... Maybe the bag boy switched his can of cream corn for a can of peas by mistake...
What I'm saying is that right wing media has been all over their base trying to motivate them any way they can, speaking to issues they think they can use to stir people up with.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that we try Glen Beck or whatever wacko this guy thought was Jesus. What I'm suggesting is that maybe idiots that tend to speak pretty loudly and angrily to wake up very old voters who are very apathetic, should probably understand that is not all they are talking to. It's like using a shot of adrenaline to snap someone out a near death experience and accidentally giving it to the twitchy junky instead.
When I think of lefty activist, I think of idiots that would rather see a whole town go bankrupt just so a snail can get protected status.
I think of people volunteering to help cleaning up after the Exxon spill.
I think of people trying to debate and work through the system to get rights and equality to people that don't yet have them.
If you want to talk about compare nutters from both sides I actually do like the Discovery guy a little better. He took hostages, had a list of demands and didn't actually hurt anyone, who knows what he hand planned but he wanted to be heard more than inflict violence. This Arizona nutter, was nothing but "I'm killing some people today where's my gun".
If you want to talk about the IRS bomber, that whole mad as hell at the government over taxes thing falls more in line with who now exactly?
But all this is getting away from my point that, maybe heavily biased media aimed at getting lazy apathetic voters off their asses and out to the polls is a little too hot for the nut jobs to handle. When you talk to everyone on the planet you have to keep in mind that you're audience isn't just you and your buddies. It's everyone and the crazy crap you cook up can have a profound impact on people.
The whole it's just words they don't effect people, is pure bullshit deflection by the people who don't want to put down some of the only cards they know how to play.
People can be stirred up and beaten into a frenzy and that is EXACTLY what has been happening over the last few years. Considering he felt like he had to target a high profile political figure I would say politics might have something to do with it... Maybe the bag boy switched his can of cream corn for a can of peas by mistake...
What I'm saying is that right wing media has been all over their base trying to motivate them any way they can, speaking to issues they think they can use to stir people up with.
Mark I think you are a reasonable guy, and I thank you dearly for the kind, level headed response.
I am going to step back now though, but I thought I would give all my thoughts on it.
When political parties try to win at any cost, everyone loses. Pretty much sums up the last 10 years or so, right?
Personally, I hope this type of discussion goes on much longer. It might be irrelevant to the incident in the big picture of things, but it's a healthy type of discussion that needs to happen.
When political parties try to win at any cost, everyone loses. Pretty much sums up the last 10 years or so, right?
Personally, I hope this type of discussion goes on much longer. It might be irrelevant to the incident in the big picture of things, but it's a healthy type of discussion that needs to happen.
I agree, but sometimes hostile debate is inevitable, and besides and unhealthy reputation I do not wish to get involved into that. But it has been my pleasure speaking with you all so far!
But all this is getting away from my point that, maybe heavily biased media aimed at getting lazy apathetic voters off their asses and out to the polls is a little too hot for the nut jobs to handle. When you talk to everyone on the planet you have to keep in mind that you're audience isn't just you and your buddies. It's everyone and the crazy crap you cook up can have a profound impact on people.
That's a perfect example of stuff that happened in the Tea Party.
At first it was a philosophical debate, on an intellectual level, about stuff like say Gun Control. Should we have it? Should we entirely get rid of it? The issues that come with that. And man, people had intellectual discussions. That's why I was drawn to it.
Then next thing you know, you got Sarah Palin bragging about how she wrestles bears or some crap, Glenn Beck saying they're disarming us on purpose to put a police state in place, etc. I mean, the guy was quoting something from Hitler about how the Nazis used gun control to make sure the Jews couldn't resist, stuff like that. Next thing I know, you have nutjobs showing up with assault rifles at rallies.
And I kinda get it I guess. They want to make a point that the second amendment gives them the right to do that. But what ever happened to the intellectual discussion?
It's like say if someone hates Christians, and he decides to express that by burning a cross. Yeah, in his little mind that may make sense. But to everyone else, he's sending the exact opposite message.
That's the way I see everything that's going on here. Weird noisy messages getting sent all over the place without thought.
It's just all bullshit man. Yeah, they're saying different things. But it's the same shit, different toilet.
Very sad sometimes to step back and see what this has done to our country. There will always be fundamental differences that neither side is willing to cave in towards.
Remember this isn't new. The American Civil War was started out of states rights and then became largely about Slavery as the morale issue behind it. Since our country was started, we have always had this kind of incendiary divide. When it REALLY gets scary is when we start talking about violent revolution and violent Civil War. Lot's of people would inevitably die.
I care what happens in America.I'm upset because people pretend the violence perpetrated by the right wing equals the violence that supposedly is perpetrated by the left. People pretend to be NEUTRAL, by saying two things are EQUAL, rather than pointing out the FACTS.
Yeah, I'll agree with you on that one. There's definitely more of a "let's take back (take back?) the government by force" type thing going on with the talking heads on the Neo-Conservative side of things. And it's bullshit.
But just to be fair, when left-wing politicians sign a bill that forces me to buy health-insurance, thereby sponsoring healthcare corporations, I get upset too. It's not in-your-face like the right-wing stuff, but it's there.
@ Super happy Cow- Can you please be a more happy cow and less, incendiary? I don't want to fight you dude. We have difference of opinion. Just shrug your shoulders and agree to disagree.
I think you hit it spot on, actually. Thanks for making my point better than I could.
Now aside from the inflammatory rhetoric, is there any case where you would agree it was necessary? if only as a speaking voice for a oppressed minority? If the Government started becoming like Nazi Germany after Hitler started to gain power, when if ever would inflammatory rhetoric be accepted? When is when and when is it too late?
I am asking you all to step back and think about the last ten years. This is about the survival of our country, not trying to drift away from the topic at hand...but just like V says in V for Vendetta.. "there is something terribly wrong with this country"...and it does not take well to placing the blame on one side..because we ALL had a hand in it..the only thing it does is castrate and alienate the opposition into more anger against the other. As you start to place the blame, all this does is reinvigorate the minority into a feeling of oppression. Let me tell you something about human nature and history; these things matter. And it won't go away because human nature will most likely stay the same.
In a Free society these kinds of events are bound to happen. Tragic as they may be, I do not think it is as simple as some may think. Violence will still happen whether instruments of war or violence are abolished. Back in the stone ages we used rocks! My point is that it is very difficult to define the changing of human nature to suit our advanced society. We have advanced, but in a lot of ways we still feel happiness, anger, regret, sadness...emotions.
Replies
Pretty messed up world at the moment. I was hoping a New Year would be a new start...sad to begin in such a way.
http://www.youtube.com/user/giffords2
I just hope they don't make a massive hoopla out this.. like they did with airport security.. I'm scared
That is creepy.
They succeeded in firing up their base, a little too much... Who would of thought that using a hot button issue like gun control as a tent pole in just about every circus they ran in would lead someone down a dark path... I mean what are the odds? What do you expect when the sound bites amount to you have the right to bare arms, you should exercise your right.
I'm some weird breed of American that believes people should have the right to guns but that responsibility compassion and common sense should be a persons first and last weapons when engaged in any kind of debate. The only time weapon should be used is in self defense. Too often I've seen and heard the opposite and I live in a left leaning state, I can only imagine what it's like in other states caught in fight for the "states political soul".
Think the tea party line needs to be:
"Just because I make thinnly veiled threats doesn't mean I wanted people to carry them out, I mean I just really wanted into office and thought if I talked tough I wouldn't have to come up with actual workable solutions, we are sorry for ramping up the hate machine,next time we will win by putting the best idea forward instead of just relying on emotion... Especially the wrong kind."
edit: there was also a lot of rhetoric and hate mongering before the Kenny assassination and before the assassination Harvey Milk.
She was also born on September 11, 2001.
As quoted by her father, born on a tragic day and taken from them on a tragic day.
This guy needs to be put down. Period.
/flamecoat.
Again not saying people can't have guns but maybe we need to make sure that mentally ill people who the army rejects don't have access... at least legally. Maybe we should do more to make sure drugs don't flow north and guns flow south? Maybe the "pry my shotgun from cold dead hands" people need to realize that some regulation to make sure that assault rifles aren't flowing into mexico is a good thing... Oh but that's a slippery slope and "patriots don't compromise even if it means their own demise".
/jumps behind Sam.
True, it doesn't happen with guns. Instead, it usually happens with bombs. In their 25 year campaign, the IRA killed 115 people in Britain and wounded 2134 more, despite Britain's much stricter laws governing firearms. Numbers via wikipedia.
Holy shit, I agree with this completely and entirely. Let me make a note of this blessed occurrence on my calendar
Yes, pretty much. The problem isn't guns, the problem is not taking care to help people with serious mental issues. I've read multiple articles with people saying the knew the shooter was crazy, but almost nothing was done about it. As you mentioned, anyone the army refuses to enlist in a time of war may not be someone you sell a gun to, 2nd Amendment or not.
If it were up to me, you'd have to get a firearms license just like you get a drivers license: mandatory classes and training, a practical exam with a law enforcement officer, a photo ID in a connected national database, and all weapons in your possession must be registered.
Inevitably, this is the problem with America today. Maybe just human nature at that. This was not politically motivated, and anyone who says so just is out for the opportunism that comes with the baseless accusations that either left or right "inspired" this lone nut job into action. Ultimately we are human beings that can choose between right and wrong. Blaming talk show hosts or banning guns does not solve anything. We have the responsibility to make the right decisions and we are held accountable for our actions, unstable or not.
I think banning guns would do alot. Something ment to kill people shouldn't be pretty much freely available in a store.
http://dwmlc.com/index.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wynn_Miller
People will find ways to get them anyways. Punishing the responsible that otherwise use guns for defense is not really solving anything. We just have a difference in opinion.
Guns to defend from Guns. zero accountability.
Freely available at the store, or on the street. Either way, it's going to be freely available. Might as well make it stores, where they can ask for IDs, not sell it to minors, and (hopefully, it may have helped in this case) not sell it to mentally unstable people.
It works. Accountability is not punishing responsible members of society by placing unacceptable restraints on their ability to defend themselves. It is also oppressive as well.
At the end of the day, it really takes someone who's pretty unstable to actually carry out horrible acts like these. Their motives behind it are essentially irrelevant.
With that said, I really think that there ought to be more scrutiny on people running for office and certain individuals in the media. The things some of these people say absolutely blow my mind at how bad the political situation in America has become. It seems like each month that goes by, the dialog in the country becomes less and less about the actual issues, and the mudslinging and defamation of the "other guys" is the central platform of both parties.
It really makes me wonder, they're called the United states, but it sort of makes me wonder if that's really only a name these days. Seems like America is more divided than it's ever been in my life.
Yes the shooting is all on him, it was his call to make and even if he was inundated with a crazy media blitz over the last 2 years he could of shut it off and walked away. But he didn't, and people need to realize that they aren't just talking to lazy, apathetic voters and that saying some pretty extreme things, aimed at waking up and stirring a nomrally apathetic person into action (voting), moved this guy who was already wired and jittery into hyper action.
If you can't filter your message to just the people you want to talk to that you know can handle your message, then maybe you need to dial it down a few notches so the crazies don't go off the deep end. It's not censorship, its consideration. It's being a responsible citizen in the society and world you live in. When people liken back to stalward news anchors of bygone eras they aren't looking for a left leaning media to save them with their hippy ideals they're looking for someone who thinks before they speak and tempers their statements and tries harder to strain out their bias than trying to pump it in.
I personally would love to go back to when bias wasn't the soup de jour but the rat you chased out of the kitchen.
Take the entertainment out of the news.
So far any attempt to bring back rational debate has been met with "Oh calm down Marry your panties are in twist we're just having fun" Yea well tell that to the 9 yr old. There needs to be some soul searching going on and people need to come to the realization that freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of whatever you throw around.
Personally at this point, I'll take a tree hugging, bulldoze chaining pot smoking extremist over this shit any day. Peace love and not shooting each other in the head sounds pretty good to me...
I apologized for jumping to conclusions but to assume there's absolutely no chance that this was politically motivated is to do the same.
We've been talking about political rhetoric here that goes out to millions, the most profitable radio shows with the most loyal base are ones that incite the most fear and anger.
There seems to be a consensus here, "guns should only be used for defense", but that's exactly the problem. Too many talking heads are making their money and power by riling up the population with fear mixed with strong, violent language. It may take a truly disturbed individuals with delusional thoughts about reality to kill prominent public figures in such a way, but such thoughts are reinforced by aggression and fear mongering so popular today in American politics.
Glenn Beck said he was "thinking about killing Michael Moore" and pondered whether "I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it," before concluding: "No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out -- is this wrong?"
Damn dude. 100% agreed. Strange day indeed...
But yeah, this is exactly why I left all that stuff. It was all nice and talking about change, more civil rights, less corruption in government and all that. But then at some point, Foxnews and co, you know, people like Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin and Ann Coulter started taking over and saying some really out-there stuff. Like how women shouldn't vote (That's Coulter saying that), and I just couldn't take it anymore.
Who is there to police the police? The Government? are you kidding me? When someone breaks into your home and you have seconds to react, the police are only minutes away. This is a saying but it is true. Close your eyes, wish away all of the evil in the world but what changes? what truly changes? Violence will happen regardless if there are guns or no guns.
Remember the nut job extremist who held the Discovery Network hostage with a list of demands for the Environment? Hell, even the IRS bomber. If you look more closely into their beliefs, they were just nut jobs who went off the deep end. And frankly, their views were more left oriented then right from what I read. But again, this is just crazytalk. People have the choice of doing things like this. You may feel "influenced" but ultimately to place the blame on influence from another is just plain unacceptable and irresponsible.
I mean this guy was fearing "mind control" over the populace..that is just comedy. The last time I checked, mind control was not at the highest priority of a TEA party supporter.
The left and right has it's own extremists. This debate is NOT about political ideology, but a lone nut who went off the deep end. I can't understand why people are using this as a means for political opportunism. I guess the Right did it when that lone environmental whack job took the Discovery building hostage with his list of gross demands.
Talk radio is not a one way street. People forget very fast how bad things were during the Bush years, but now it seems to be anathema to people about the things they hear on the radio from people on the right. Polarization has caused a lot of this anger; including what we hear over the airwaves. The more we start to drift to an authoritarian Government that controls others and creeps more into a single party rule, you are going to have this kind of stuff happening. It is inevitable with free society. Even in Europe there are assassinations and murders of political candidates. Most of these countries lack individual rights to even own a gun, and yet the violence still happens. Who said something about the IRA and it's bombs as a means to resistance instead of a gun shooting rampage was exactly right. Nothing is solved, in fact more violence just happens because of it.
In the end, people need to accept responsibility for their actions, and not simply point the finger at someone else. Especially since as I know and am concerned I have never heard of any right wing radio talk host going off the deep end and committing horrible violent acts like this. To relate this insane killer with talk show is just pure crazy talk. Yes the rhetoric is bad right now from the left AND right. People get fed up with the polarization of one side over the other and nothing gets solved.
I'm never going to try and point out a liberal who encouraged violent acts. No point.
And I never justified any kind of murder, or any kind of hate speech. Conservative or not.
The guy who did this should be put down. It is tragic what happened, but even more farcical and disappointing how the media has largely used this as fuel against a "hate filled right wing airwave" climate. It's total nonsense. I remember all the anger and rage after the Bush tax cuts were extended- even far back when Bush was in Office, and yet conveniently people seem to forget about all of that. That is what is so maddening. The hypocrisy of it all astounds me into disgust. Whoever said they feel so pulled into political apathy because of this climate we have allowed ourselves to breed is right on. That is the nature of the game and it has been that way since the start of Government. Nothing is going to change.
I don't watch Glenn Beck but I doubt he was serious at all with that statement. These talk show hosts are not just political talking heads...they are entertainers...I have even heard some pretty far out there statements from the likes of people like Keith Olberman and Rachel Maddow, hell even Bill Maher. But when they grin halfway with a smirk after they say something outrageous, I am sure it was never intended to be harmful.
Anyone remember back not so long ago a cartoonist was talking about open violent revolution, a left winged self proclaimed activist at that?
The problem, ultimately again is jumping to conclusions.
Our ideas our our ideas until we choose to act upon them. Our responsibility is paramount. I don't buy this notion that another's words are responsible for another's actions, even in a small part. Sure, people are driven to extremism by others words but to hold the person they admired accountable for a crime, a violent one at that is just irresponsible to me.
Timothy Mcveigh was. The IRS bomber as well. What about the "Right wing extremism" report that was brought forth not too long after the very first TEA party back in 2009?
Again, total hypocrisy.
Maybe if the person who was shot had a (R) next to her name people would jump to conclusions just as easily. The irony, was that Gabrielle supported measures the state of Arizona felt was necessary to curb the tide of illegal immigration, oh my god! Was this automatically why the gun man chose to plan to kill her? of course not.
I read some story where the deranged shooter asked her a question a while back "what do words mean and how can you prove them" or something to that effect, She responded in Spanish and perhaps he had some sort of made up agenda against her since then. Who knows? More likely this guy was just a total nut job that chose to put his focus on one person, whether ending that person's life had an agenda behind it is not really clear at all.
Bottom line is, totally tragic event, and even worse it is being used as cannon fodder for the media. That is totally irresponsible reporting.
I agree with what Mark said.
"Take the comedy and entertainment out of the news".
From BOTH sides.
Not arguing with you on that. You're absolutely right, and it's bullshit.
So... now what? I guess I'm having a bit of a hard time grasping you guys' end-message. So yeah, Republicans (the leadership) are a-holes. Do you suggest we take away their freedom of speech? I mean, we allow Nazis to hold rallies, and for sure we all disagree with those folks 100%. So yeah, you got politicians saying bad stuff. I don't see what we can do other than ignore it.
I'm just not sure I see the point of the whole Republicans are a-holes, and Democrats are compassionate debate. At the end of the day it seems like us, the people, get screwed either way.
Looks like someone needs to cool down their own rhetoric before any more debate.
I refuse to argue with people who flare and argue with emotion alone. Do your own research and try not to limit the scope of your entire world to the left equates to angels, the right equates to the Devil.
Exactly. Both parties really just suck though. To cry out the Republican leadership is a bunch of A holes is really just a narrow part of the bigger picture. I remember all too well the Bush years and even now, the past 2 with the Democrats in charge. Their polarization and inflammatory rhetoric has not helped any at all either. Again, this is just all so tiring.
So a left winged cartoonist suggesting violent revolution does not count?
The fact is, the largest supporters of the 2nd amendment come from the Right. What is your point Super Happy Cow? That anyone who supports the right to bear arms as a potential and deadly threat to our safety? What if it is more about the message of our right, and duty as Americans to fight for what our founders fought for us to have as a last resort to Government tyranny and protection of an individual?
Ironic how it came out the very day of the first post-Obama TEA party wouldn't you say?
Not even sure what you are talking about. A tragedy happened and people are being quick to point fingers at individuals whose job is to otherwise comment on political happenings today and make the occasional joke, you mean that?
If they don't harm anyone why do you care? Rampant hatred for their religion?
You mean like the bombings in Egypt recently at a Christian mass by Islamic terrorists?
I agree, That is disgusting.
No, read carefully. I said several times that, especially in the tea party, there has been a hi-jacking of the higher-ranks by complete idiots. People doing the stuff you're saying here.
Again, I totally 100% agree with you guys on that.
What they're doing is bullshit. But I don't see any way of dealing with it that's not draconian. Best we can do is treat them like the idiots that they are.
As to your second point:
"yet you guys are pretending that lib politicians and conservative politicians are the same."
I don't think you're getting to the bottom of my mind here. I'm not saying they're the same as in, completely identical, talking about the same exact things etc.
I'm saying they're the same in the degree of bullshit that comes out of their mouths. Granted, it's different types of bullshit.
You have the Ann Coulter types saying women shouldn't vote. And you have Bill Maher saying that the united states needs to be more totalitarian, like China. Yeah, he said that, I'll go dig up the youtube video if I have to, but I really don't feel like it. It was in relation to how Obama and co. were bending over to the Republicans on the healthcare debate.
Or Christians calling for bombing of abortion clinics, and environmentalists bombing research facilities and homes of scientists who experiment on animals.
Again, those are different things, of course. But the degree of bullshit is the same I find on both sides. How much fear mongering is there in Republican circles about the country taking a "sharp left turn" or turning into Communism? And how much fear mongering is there in the liberal media about people clinging to guns and bibles?
It's just all bullshit man. Yeah, they're saying different things. But it's the same shit, different toilet.
[ame]
Doesn't have power exactly, but I am not sure I understand your premises. Does Sarah Palin hold any political power anymore?
People saying there have been zero left wing radical groups and extremists acting out against the Government and issues? uhhh..
Where have you guys been during the 60's? Where were you doing the Bush years?
Slippery slope. How much "free" speech should be allowed? Biased and opinionated news does sell better, you are right. Maybe that is why our news stations in America do so well. MSNBC and FOX have the same kind of idea. It is all in the bend to the stories that matter.
It seems like you just hate Glen Beck more then anything. I can't really see what you are arguing unless I have the context of what he said and when. Not that I don't believe you, it's just that all too often today people are very quick to jump to "their" side, my guy or gal said this, the other person said this...it becomes very clouded to argue after that because words can mean many different things. Sometimes the context from which some things are said is not understood at first.
A good example to counter yours was the Discovery channel hostage taker. He had some pretty far left extremest views on the Environment, could I lump the entire green movement with his lone actions that humans must be killed off as much as possible so the Earth can be saved?
- The same as you equate wrongly anyone who shows up with a gun as more of a symbol for the right, as long as they are responsible AND sane to own one for home protection, etc, as some kind of lunatic that does it to show off they are ready to kill?
If you want to talk about compare nutters from both sides I actually do like the Discovery guy a little better. He took hostages, had a list of demands and didn't actually hurt anyone, who knows what he had planned it to end but he wanted to be heard more than inflict violence which at least gave the police time to stop him. This Arizona nutter, was nothing but "I'm killing some people today where's my gun bam bam bam".
If you want to talk about the IRS bomber, that whole mad as hell at the government over taxes thing falls more in line with who now exactly?
But all this is getting away from my point that, maybe heavily biased media aimed at getting lazy apathetic voters off their asses and out to the polls is a little too hot for the nut jobs to handle. When you talk to everyone on the planet you have to keep in mind that you're audience isn't just you and your buddies. It's everyone and the crazy crap you cook up can have a profound impact on people.
The whole it's just words they don't effect people, is pure bullshit deflection by the people who don't want to put down some of the only cards they know how to play.
People can be stirred up and beaten into a frenzy and that is EXACTLY what has been happening over the last few years. Considering he felt like he had to target a high profile political figure I would say politics might have something to do with it... Maybe the bag boy switched his can of cream corn for a can of peas by mistake...
What I'm saying is that right wing media has been all over their base trying to motivate them any way they can, speaking to issues they think they can use to stir people up with.
Mark I think you are a reasonable guy, and I thank you dearly for the kind, level headed response.
I am going to step back now though, but I thought I would give all my thoughts on it.
Cheers mate.
Personally, I hope this type of discussion goes on much longer. It might be irrelevant to the incident in the big picture of things, but it's a healthy type of discussion that needs to happen.
I agree, but sometimes hostile debate is inevitable, and besides and unhealthy reputation I do not wish to get involved into that. But it has been my pleasure speaking with you all so far!
That's a perfect example of stuff that happened in the Tea Party.
At first it was a philosophical debate, on an intellectual level, about stuff like say Gun Control. Should we have it? Should we entirely get rid of it? The issues that come with that. And man, people had intellectual discussions. That's why I was drawn to it.
Then next thing you know, you got Sarah Palin bragging about how she wrestles bears or some crap, Glenn Beck saying they're disarming us on purpose to put a police state in place, etc. I mean, the guy was quoting something from Hitler about how the Nazis used gun control to make sure the Jews couldn't resist, stuff like that. Next thing I know, you have nutjobs showing up with assault rifles at rallies.
And I kinda get it I guess. They want to make a point that the second amendment gives them the right to do that. But what ever happened to the intellectual discussion?
It's like say if someone hates Christians, and he decides to express that by burning a cross. Yeah, in his little mind that may make sense. But to everyone else, he's sending the exact opposite message.
That's the way I see everything that's going on here. Weird noisy messages getting sent all over the place without thought.
Very sad sometimes to step back and see what this has done to our country. There will always be fundamental differences that neither side is willing to cave in towards.
Remember this isn't new. The American Civil War was started out of states rights and then became largely about Slavery as the morale issue behind it. Since our country was started, we have always had this kind of incendiary divide. When it REALLY gets scary is when we start talking about violent revolution and violent Civil War. Lot's of people would inevitably die.
Yeah, I'll agree with you on that one. There's definitely more of a "let's take back (take back?) the government by force" type thing going on with the talking heads on the Neo-Conservative side of things. And it's bullshit.
But just to be fair, when left-wing politicians sign a bill that forces me to buy health-insurance, thereby sponsoring healthcare corporations, I get upset too. It's not in-your-face like the right-wing stuff, but it's there.
Thanks.
Now aside from the inflammatory rhetoric, is there any case where you would agree it was necessary? if only as a speaking voice for a oppressed minority? If the Government started becoming like Nazi Germany after Hitler started to gain power, when if ever would inflammatory rhetoric be accepted? When is when and when is it too late?
I am asking you all to step back and think about the last ten years. This is about the survival of our country, not trying to drift away from the topic at hand...but just like V says in V for Vendetta.. "there is something terribly wrong with this country"...and it does not take well to placing the blame on one side..because we ALL had a hand in it..the only thing it does is castrate and alienate the opposition into more anger against the other. As you start to place the blame, all this does is reinvigorate the minority into a feeling of oppression. Let me tell you something about human nature and history; these things matter. And it won't go away because human nature will most likely stay the same.
In a Free society these kinds of events are bound to happen. Tragic as they may be, I do not think it is as simple as some may think. Violence will still happen whether instruments of war or violence are abolished. Back in the stone ages we used rocks! My point is that it is very difficult to define the changing of human nature to suit our advanced society. We have advanced, but in a lot of ways we still feel happiness, anger, regret, sadness...emotions.