I think we should personally condone certain schools as indivduals based on our personal experience. But coming up with a group public statement or a list, essentially trying to black ball certain schools could get the operators of PC slapped with law suits for defamation? It's also incredibly hard to get "polycount" to agree on anything, although there a general consensus on this issue. But I don't know if it needs to be stated publicly...
I think its fine to discuss it and if individuals want to post saying "hey I think these schools are garbage" and a bunch of people agree I think we're fine. But making some kind of official statement just sounds like trouble, but hey with trouble comes press and with press, the cold hard light of day. Their lawsuits would only bring their shady practices more into public view.
We just need Adam to take his pants off for MONEY instead of every chance he gets and we've got the right string of keywords to make headlines!
Meh... I think a good move would be to put together a recommended curriculum and as well as hiring standards for teachers. So instead of pointing fingers and drawing fire, we basically tell people what to look for and by in doing so they decide for themselves. It's something I would like the IGDA to do instead of throw lame get-together parties.
If they where smart about it, they could sell it to schools like other groups sell curriculum. Not driving them out of business but giving them a fucking clue about what we need them to teach candidates.
I think we should personally condone certain schools as indivduals based on our personal experience. But coming up with a group public statement or a list, essentially trying to black ball certain schools could get the operators of PC slapped with law suits for defamation? It's also incredibly hard to get "polycount" to agree on anything, although there a general consensus on this issue. But I don't know if it needs to be stated publicly...
I think its fine to discuss it and if individuals want to post saying "hey I think these schools are garbage" and a bunch of people agree I think we're fine. But making some kind of official statement just sounds like trouble, but hey with trouble comes press and with press, the cold hard light of day. Their lawsuits would only bring their shady practices more into public view.
We just need Adam to take his pants off for MONEY instead of every chance he gets and we've got the right string of keywords to make headlines!
Meh... I think a good move would be to put together a recommended curriculum and as well as hiring standards for teachers. So instead of pointing fingers and drawing fire, we basically tell people what to look for and by in doing so they decide for themselves. It's something I would like the IGDA to do instead of throw lame get-together parties.
If they where smart about it, they could sell it to schools like other groups sell curriculum. Not driving them out of business but giving them a fucking clue about what we need them to teach candidates.
are you really going to call what the IGDA does "a party", it's more like a bunch of nerds getting together that have no chance of hooking up. I mean seriously, you have alcohol and there are a few girls there. There has to be somebody gettin some. Not to mention the no "gettin down and dancing rule".
Back to the topic...
perhaps a small web page, linked to polycount, that lists a recommend curriculum and course content. we should also make it easy for someone to Google it and have it show up within the first 5 results.
It isn't really proper to harp on the fact that "what you put in is what you get out." Most of the posters here are quite aware of this. We've all seen it before. If you don't invest the time and practice necessary, you won't improve. And if you don't have a solid portfolio, it isn't reasonable to expect employment anywhere.
That's not really the issue here. The real problem is that the majority of for-profit educational institutions are drastically overcharging for a sub-standard product/service. If I go to a college, I should be able to expect certain educational standards from the professors and the curriculum. If those standards are not met, I would expect to be able to pay less. (since I was not being provided with as much) This has nothing to do with how I use the educational resources at my disposal, it is about those resources themselves.
These schools are charging an arm and a leg for an educational experience that frankly sucks. My advice to potential students is the same as it always has been. Don't go to those schools. Apply to traditional accredited colleges that have decent art programs. Apply for scholarships. You will be able to go to college and get a degree without tying yourself down with ridiculous debt.
absolute truth, this is why i feel cheated. I went to Illinois institute or Art i wouldnt mind paying good money as long as teh education was good. But i feel cheated cause program sucked
I agree with Vig. Polycount is a casual message board, not an activist organization. There doesn't really need to be any official Polycount "position" on issues like this. I think its enough for individual members to continue offering advice and posting about their personal experiences.
I've always wondered why more game companies haven't gotten involved with the education of their employees. The current business model makes entry difficult for everyone, because all the game studios want are experienced workers. But the very best place for anyone to get experience making games is in game companies.
I think it would be a good idea for some of the larger publishers to establish their own educational "institutes" and staff them with industry professionals from the studios they publish games for. There are any number of ways they could incentivize such a program. A school like this would always have experienced, capable teachers, and the curriculum could be focused purely on game production. Since it would be more of a training center than a traditional accredited university, they would also be able to use it as a think-tank for developing new IP and experimental gameplay. (that the publisher would then own)
I agree with Vig. Polycount is a casual message board, not an activist organization. There doesn't really need to be any official Polycount "position" on issues like this. I think its enough for individual members to continue offering advice and posting about their personal experiences.
I agree but a wiki page devoted to education couldn't hurt.
I agree with Vig. Polycount is a casual message board, not an activist organization. There doesn't really need to be any official Polycount "position" on issues like this. I think its enough for individual members to continue offering advice and posting about their personal experiences.
I've always wondered why more game companies haven't gotten involved with the education of their employees. The current business model makes entry difficult for everyone, because all the game studios want are experienced workers. But the very best place for anyone to get experience making games is in game companies.
I think it would be a good idea for some of the larger publishers to establish their own educational "institutes" and staff them with industry professionals from the studios they publish games for. There are any number of ways they could incentivize such a program. A school like this would always have experienced, capable teachers, and the curriculum could be focused purely on game production. Since it would be more of a training center than a traditional accredited university, they would also be able to use it as a think-tank for developing new IP and experimental gameplay. (that the publisher would then own)
I think the Guild Wars guys have their own school dont they?
Whats his name(stoofoo?) does something, lessons and has trialled an online version.
Thought i'd chime in on this thread and give my personal experience in the matter.
Like many people have said already, you have to be very self-motivated and driven in order to get something out of your school etc etc.
For europeans/Non americans wanting to get a job in the US, an education is almost a must though, unless you're a total rockstar and can get a O1 Visa, or whatever its called.
I can't say that my time at my swedish school was very gratifying or rewarding but in the end, those years made it possible for me to go overseas and get me the job i always wanted.
So what im trying to say is as a future student, think beyond your entry job and try and envision where you want to be in 5-10 years time because choosing whether going for an education may or may not bite you in the ass years down the line.
@MartinH what school did you attend? Im curious since most game art schools here seem to be KY(some sort of advanced vocational schools you can find here in Sweden) and i thought those didnt really count when trying to get into the US and such?
Meh... I think a good move would be to put together a recommended curriculum and as well as hiring standards for teachers. So instead of pointing fingers and drawing fire, we basically tell people what to look for and by in doing so they decide for themselves.
Well, for what it's worth I feel that Academy of Art University has some solid teachers. They have gotten talented artists from EA, Volition, and other respectable firms as our instructors. People that actually teach us industry practices. There has also been a number of opportunities to work with local Indie. game companies on a voluntary basis, one of which landed me a contract position.
I still feel like they probably charge us a bit too much @30K a year but there are some good teachers there. Plus you get an ok grounding in traditional art (I don't feel they push this nearly enough for the digital artists)
Key thing is listening to other students and knowing the teachers to avoid, because there are indeed a few that won't teach you anything. AAU sports a full 4 year BFA in game design, it's still very much a work in progress, but I've seen some really excellent artwork come from people here. I would say the school's only major weakness at present is a lack of push towards students learning game editors more fully. They do get a solid grounding in game art, but there's a definite lack of game engine experience. However they've been developing some game "mod" projects to get students involved in Unity so we'll see how helpful that is.
If nothing else I feel AAU's location right in downtown San Francisco can't hurt any, since there are so many casual game developers right in the area. Seeing how that's how a lot of us find our first jobs it works out ok.
Just my thoughts...
P.S. their website is grossly outdated, but you can see some of what people are doing at the message board one of our teachers setup for the students...
University game art courses in the UK generally all have a similar problem. they arn't really teaching students what they really need to know to get them the jobs. Computer game courses are springing up all over the place, because they are popular and they attract students.
But (from my experience and what I have read) they are sometimes too broad, (I had modules on modelling, animation, digital compositing, match moving, shader writing, etc.) or two focused and not giving students everything they need to know.
SkillSet have a list of game industry accredited courses, but I cant be sure if they are as good as they say they are.
What I did get out of my course was working with a group of like minded people. Working with artists kept me inspired and interested.
What would be useful would to students choosing schools or courses would be an idea of what they should look for in a computer game course. In hindsight the biggest thing my course missed was some kind of game focused programming module, c++ etc.
I don't usually chime in on these discussions but I saw this on the news section and since I'm in a school I don't think anyone has mentioned I thought I'd share. Take what I say with a grain of salt since I still have about a year (Expression College, SF) left and don't really know if, with the work I've done, I could get a job.
If anyone were to ask me if I would recommend my school to someone I would say no, unless I knew the person and knew how much drive he/she had. While saying that, though, I've enjoyed my experience thus far.
I agree with most of the things here saying that school's what you make it and most of the people in my school come expecting that by the end will be able to land a great job at some top studio, which is highly unlikely. A lot of the things about how the program is set up I think could definitely be improved as the first 6 months are pretty much filled with useless classes. I thin though the biggest problem with the course is the grade system. So far I've only had one teacher who gives generally honest grades. The rest all are very easy on grades and C's are only handed out to people who practically didn't show up for class. However, the critique the teachers give are great. While they tend to stay away from harsher comments which I wish they didn't, they usually have some fantastic advice which I see usually gets completely ignored. And that's the biggest problem. Every teacher I have had has a great interest in your success ONLY if you are interested in it too, and I think most people who are going into Art colleges are lured in by the advertisements and recruiters and think, 'hey, if I go to this school, work the minimum amount of time, experience a 'normal' college life, in only years I'll be pro', which is very untrue. I honestly think they should just scrap the traditional 'grading' system and focus solely on critique because in the end, no matter what critique you get, most people look at there 'A' or 'B' and are happy.
Anyways, this has all been said before so I'll stop my rant. But that's the thing, if you seek out those teachers by yourself outside of class like Autocon said way back, they do help and do bring a lot of experience with them.
I think another thing which has been great about the school is it does offer a lot of opportunities which are largely taken for granted. We have figure drawing every weekend which is only attended by a few, but this and Guest lectures from Industry Pros (again, optional) have been two things that consistently challenge and inspire me and I would say that that along with some of the teachers was well worth the price of admission.
Don't really know what my point is, I guess I don't have one, but just felt like I should share.
too many wall of texts here so forgive me if this was mentioned.
Theres two things to be condoned here :
- for profit schools misleasing uninformed students and promissing them something that they claim its thru shelling out 50k .
- People that before making the decision of shelling out that ammount of money dont seem to remember using google to research , i mean seriously , whats wrong with people ? your about to shell out that ammount of money and you dont even research the school ,teachers and what you will be taught ??
ITs like this trend on society where everyone decides for everyone whats good and bad , instead of promoting free thinking and using logic to see if spending that money is even worth !!
theres alot more but it already was mentioned im sure.
Meh... I think a good move would be to put together a recommended curriculum and as well as hiring standards for teachers. So instead of pointing fingers and drawing fire, we basically tell people what to look for and by in doing so they decide for themselves. It's something I would like the IGDA to do instead of throw lame get-together parties.
The problem with hiring instructors a lot of the time, Vig, is that there are certain criteria within the schools in order to even qualify to teach. For instance, at my school where I've been trying to get a position to help steer people in the right direction with everything, you need a Bachelor's degree in order to teach an Associate's degree program, Master's to teach Bachelor's, etc...I'm not sure how many schools do it this way (might even be state mandates, for all I know), but this probably leads to many of the problems with inexperienced instructors. As vcortis mentioned earlier, if someone with a Master's degree has to teach the class, they most likely have little to no industry experience. I know my single instructor for all of my game/production art classes was pretty much learning everything on his own just ahead of all of us (given, it is a fairly new program at our school), so I tried to help where I could with what knowledge I have gained from here, but you can only do so much sometimes.
- People that before making the decision of shelling out that ammount of money dont seem to remember using google to research , i mean seriously , whats wrong with people ? your about to shell out that ammount of money and you dont even research the school ,teachers and what you will be taught ??
theres alot more but it already was mentioned im sure.
People still have the mindset college = jobs like it meant 20 years ago.
and kids and parents don't really know what to look for. Lots of college say they'll prepare you for a job with the industry and you'll have a completed portfolio by the end of 2-4 years. And how do these people know what kind of work qualifies for an entry level job? I know in high school (we had a "basic" animation program) if I ever asked to see a teacher portfolio I would of been sent to the office, and I think kids don't know what they should be looking for in teachers.
I still think we could do a school guide and talk about the education system as a whole.
Johny makes a GREAT point. At some point you have to hold yourself accountable for the decisions you make. A lot of people are just out to make money...that's just life. I consider myself mainly self taught even though I went to a game art school, but they did expose me to new things like polycount and many other online resources. Hopefully, in the future people will take this profession more seriously and create more 4 year degrees. I think it is unrealistic to learn everything you need to know in 1.5 years.
The problem with hiring instructors a lot of the time, Vig, is that there are certain criteria within the schools in order to even qualify to teach.
I remember Ben Mathis lamenting about the crazy requirements when he was trying to work his way into teaching. He really has a heart for teaching (or he did...).BUT that only applies to degrees.
Most of the good schools like Gnomon, where you load up on skill and degree be damned. Of course they operate in the same murky waters as the rest of the for profits BUT their reputation, their instructors and their curriculum stand out. there is a good chance that whatever fix congress applies to the for profit school issues will seriously screw over some of the really great schools. Well except for Feng Zhu, dude set up shop out of country... smart bastard.
This is why the industry demands actual proof and why the portfolio is king.
You don't need shipped titles to land a job, you need experience.
You don't need a degree, you need practice.
You don't need amazing instructors to show which buttons to push. You need to push F1.
You do need to demonstrate you can actually do the job you're applying for. Lucky for a lot of us that can happen a few different ways.
The more things you can tack onto your proof, like Autocon's degree, the better off your chances are. But that stuff is just window dressing, if you don't have the main ceterpiece (proof) you have nothing. Autocon would of landed a job regardless, like Vahl, like Jelmer Boskma, like so many others that have gone to school and gone on to great things. The school didn't make them awesome it just helped them realize and refine it.
If you dropped whatsherface in gnomon or sat her down with Feng Zhu they would be unable to crack her head open and pour in the awesomeness she wanted. Its not the teacher, or the school that makes someone exceptional, those are just tools available to the student as they hone their craft.
They spent more time playing games then working on them.
A lot of what I think has already been said. But from personal experience I can't believe people pay such insane amounts of money and not even give their best. In my case, more than playing videogames, I am really into improving myself at doing art for them, I spent countless hours learning by myself besides school that year... but saw a lot of cases like the one you mention on your post while studying in a videogame program, therefor the results were similar as the ones you mention, not a big surprise though....
Polycount doesn't necessarily need to take a slanderous official position, but it certainly would go a long way to have something written up covering the broad aspects, subject and issues that would be expected of individuals working (wanting to get) in the biz; salary expectations, type of work, core skills required, the role of each team members and so on...
The problem is, and this is what everyone is pretty much bitching about, there is no single concise and up-to-date document on what getting into games actually means at a grass roots level, it's just anecdotal stuff about "when I woz working for 'X'" or some treatise on game development as a philosophy.. that's not helpful to anyone and it doesn't help solve this problem.
There is a need for some concise info on this written up by someone and I can't really think of anywhere better than PolyCount.
FXPHD are doing a nice series on this but for the film industry, they're disecting the individual roles. explaining what is required in each role, and importantly how to find out yourself. They are doing interviews with the recruiters of major production houses asking what they look for and how to present their work. They're going to expand it to how to setup a good portfolio and how to approach interviews.
FXPHD is interesting becuase while its video tutorial based and pre recorded it gets updated frequently and if demand in a course is high enough they shoot new videos to help with specific subjects. Its a shame no one does this for games, there is honest money to be made in actually helping folks and teaching them relavent up to date skills.
While I can sort of imagine that you're lured into an education that ends up being rather lousy, I wonder why these people finish them and then complain they didn't learn anything. I spent a year in a game art school; it took me about two months to find out that I didn't like it at all, and I spent the rest of the year doing it just for the degree, but realised I couldn't keep that up for another three years. You should definitely be able to evaluate your school after a year.
Perhaps schools should have to publish their Graduate employment stats. that might stop them from scooping up all the clueless kids with no talent and make em invest more in their teachers. it seems so harsh to have to pay 50k to find out your not cut out for games
graduate employment stats are always skewed because they count paid internships as real jobs. I don't count internships as real jobs paid or not.
I went to such a school, but my school (FIEA - UCF) is a masters degree program. The only real reason it's a master's degree program is because Full Sail forced it to be because of a pending lawsuit against UCF and the city of Orlando for unfair competition. FIEA was pretty much funded by the city of Orlando. I think the school is beyond awesome and they do what a lot of other schools don't... bring the connections to you. It's one thing to be good, but this industry it about who you know and who you get introduced. Before you're final semesters we'd had EA, Midway, Lockheed, local companies and others come to the students for interviews, not the other way around.
Also a lot of these schools have teachers with no connections and teachers who themselves haven't done anything major in the industry. At FIEA, my teacher made the Godzilla 2000 movie model, pretty much the majority of the models in the movie Antz, was a lead character artist AND animator at Microsoft Studios and that's just him. The rest of the staff of art teachers, producers, and programmers also have worked on amazing things and know what they're talking about and understand the industry fully. I knew all of this beforehand and people like Johnny said NEED to do the research. I talked to several students, took tours, and got to know the staff before I committed my funds to that program.
Find out the teacher's names and google them, look them up on linkedin, whatever it takes to fully research what you're getting into. No one would just walk onto a car lot and buy a random car for 40+K without doing some research.
And like everyone else said, it's what you put into it. You can't go to an art school and cry that after 4 years you still can't draw. Damn, were you really trying? Going to class and that's it is not enough to obtain that kind of talent. One thing all the great artists have in common is a hard work. I don't know any great artist that didn't work extra hard on their own time to become great. Not one
FXPHD are doing a nice series on this but for the film industry, they're disecting the individual roles. explaining what is required in each role, and importantly how to find out yourself. They are doing interviews with the recruiters of major production houses asking what they look for and how to present their work. They're going to expand it to how to setup a good portfolio and how to approach interviews.
FXPHD is interesting becuase while its video tutorial based and pre recorded it gets updated frequently and if demand in a course is high enough they shoot new videos to help with specific subjects. Its a shame no one does this for games, there is honest money to be made in actually helping folks and teaching them relavent up to date skills.
An fxphd like site for games would blow my mind...I would instantly give money provided it was start up by actual credible people.
I think we should personally condone certain schools as indivduals based on our personal experience. But coming up with a group public statement or a list, essentially trying to black ball certain schools could get the operators of PC slapped with law suits for defamation? It's also incredibly hard to get "polycount" to agree on anything, although there a general consensus on this issue. But I don't know if it needs to be stated publicly...
Bringing such a lawsuit in itself would show guilt. Before a lawsuit they would try scare tactics like cease and desist. Which 90% of the time is all they use as they think most people will cave in versus ignoring and leaving the company having to try to pursue real litigation. And again, I said just keep to the facts. Moreover I added we could have two voices one whom went with a good experience. One whom went without. Does not the amount of threads we get here from students or former students of these show you that sitting back and just writing a guideline will do much of anything? Will that reach these potential students when they search (those few that do) about what their program can actually do?
So instead of pointing fingers and drawing fire, we basically tell people what to look for and by in doing so they decide for themselves. It's something I would like the IGDA to do instead of throw lame get-together parties.
Says the man who could volunteer to help set something up as a member and contact Tom with ideas. Yet throws popcorn at the screen from the sidelines.
i don't really regret having attended school. for me, it was about alot more than just learning the required skills for the desired job. it helped me figure out which kind of job i actually wanted in the first place.
i had the opportunity to try out whatever i wanted with the tech at school. i got to work with motion capturing systems, 3d scanner&printer, photo/hd video cameras and dollys, a sound studio, blue/green screens, pen tablets, renderfarms, different software packages etc.
sure, most of the teachers/classes were kinda meh, but it's not like us students don't know about gnomon/digital tutors/eat 3d, which was the primary source of information for most of us. the profs basically gave us projects to work on, gave us feedback and heads up on what tools/programs/techniques we should look into depending on what we were working on. rarely were they trying to show us which buttons we had to click.
another great thing was being around alot of other students, sharing your interests, sharing information and helping each other out, keeping yourself up to date with whats going on in the industry, and making alot of valueable contacts - which helped me get my first job and also a few freelance jobs from other former students with different skillsets whenever they needed some 3d stuff done.
i also have asked teachers if they knew of any freelance jobs, and they usually were able to help out and i usually call one of my former profs to ask for a spare free ticket for the fmx every year to save some money :P
overall i'd say these were the best years of my life, with lots of freetime and lots of parties, too. even tho i could have self thought what i needed to knew much faster and way more efficiently i guess. and could have saved a few years time.
on the financial aspect, i can't really comment on us schools, other than that i wouldn't have been able to afford it :P in germany, college/university is usually "free", except for a fee you have to pay every semester which is usually 100-200€ depending on school, and you can apply for government aid if your family isn't wealthy enough to pay the rent/food while you're in school
Your college education should be about more than just learning the basic technical skills required to model something or paint a texture. If that's all someone is interested in then they are much better off self teaching. The way game art changes rapidly it doesn't make much sense to enroll in a game art program and then expect that you will be taught how things work since you will have to keep learning for your entire career anyway.
It's great that we're hearing first-hand accounts of various schools and educational experiences, both negatively and positively, but a lot of people seem to have missed the point.
We're not debating the pros and cons of formal schooling versus self-teaching, but the fundamentally flawed premise and outright lies on which many schools are selling their programs, how they represent themselves and how their entire business model is based on bullshit. It's awesome that a lot of people here seem to have realized this quickly, or even better from the very outset, but it isn't looking at the actual problem.
Seems like the amount of posts stating the obvious that you only get out what you put in outweigh the number of posts addressing the issue of how these schools make their money by saying anything and everything to sell their weak curricula taught by unqualified tutors at maximum profit.
As hard as it might be, I think we have to separate our own personal experiences and look at the issue objectively if this discussion is going to progress.
I keep seeing people throwing out the word, "condone," and I get the feeling that some of you think it means the opposite of what it actually means...
Anyway, there are lots of sketchy "schools" out there trying to teach people to do just about everything, and game art is just one of the more recent trends. I don't think there's anything illegal about it unless they guarantee results. If people have specific experiences or questions then they can already voice it here, and I don't think it's Polycount's responsibility to try and take a "stance" on something that can be so difficult to evaluate without a lot of thorough investigation.
I keep seeing people throwing out the word, "condone," and I get the feeling that some of you think it means the opposite of what it actually means...
Anyway, there are lots of sketchy "schools" out there trying to teach people to do just about everything, and game art is just one of the more recent trends. I don't think there's anything illegal about it unless they guarantee results. If people have specific experiences or questions then they can already voice it here, and I don't think it's Polycount's responsibility to try and take a "stance" on something that can be so difficult to evaluate without a lot of thorough investigation.
Actually, how these "schools" make their money is part of what these federal investigations are looking into. And how is a potential student supposed to ask questions on polycount if they don't even know it exists. How will they know the difference between a good curriculum and a bad one? This is where I think polycount can do something about it and I think I'm not alone here. It's not like we're trying to baby people. But some general information could really help people make the right decision. We should at least care about our fellow artists a little bit.
Actually, how these "schools" make their money is part of what these federal investigations are looking into. And how is a potential student supposed to ask questions on polycount if they don't even know it exists. How will they know the difference between a good curriculum and a bad one? This is where I think polycount can do something about it and I think I'm not alone here. It's not like we're trying to baby people. But some general information could really help people make the right decision. We should at least care about our fellow artists a little bit.
We just need an official guide to game art education.
Actually, how these "schools" make their money is part of what these federal investigations are looking into. And how is a potential student supposed to ask questions on polycount if they don't even know it exists. How will they know the difference between a good curriculum and a bad one? This is where I think polycount can do something about it and I think I'm not alone here. It's not like we're trying to baby people. But some general information could really help people make the right decision. We should at least care about our fellow artists a little bit.
It's not that I don't care that people are getting screwed over, but if a potential student doesn't know Polycount exists then I'm not sure how having Polycount make a stand on the matter would get their attention... unless you're suggesting embarking on some campaign larger than the scope of what the current web site is. Who would fund such an endeavor? And what exactly should this stance entail that would make it a legitimate resource for potential students?
It's not that I don't care that people are getting screwed over, but if a potential student doesn't know Polycount exists then I'm not sure how having Polycount make a stand on the matter would get their attention... unless you're suggesting embarking on some campaign larger than the scope of what the current web site is. Who would fund such an endeavor? And what exactly should this stance entail that would make it a legitimate resource for potential students?
If we make a strong article I'm sure it'll get reposted and mentioned on bigger and more popular places.
It's not that I don't care that people are getting screwed over, but if a potential student doesn't know Polycount exists then I'm not sure how having Polycount make a stand on the matter would get their attention... unless you're suggesting embarking on some campaign larger than the scope of what the current web site is. Who would fund such an endeavor? And what exactly should this stance entail that would make it a legitimate resource for potential students?
That's what I hope we can start discussing. I may not have any industry experience yet but I can tell people what to avoid and what to look out for. Getting the word out is not as hard as you might think. many of us probably still have some people they know from school that could pass along this info. Not to mention many of us are still IGDA members. We could also make sure that our information can be easily google searched. I'm sure there are plenty of ideas floating around in our heads, I just saying I'd like for us to at least start a discussion. Of course Adam would have the final word.
A lot of what I think has already been said. But from personal experience I can't believe people pay such insane amounts of money and not even give their best.
The problem here is what is perceived as best. Only after I finished my course at one of these places did I realize how crap I truly was (which I'm sure is the experience of most of these kids at these places.) Therefore during the study I thought it was tough stuff, and that I was simply "good enough" HA such a dirty couple of words for anything that's considered a profession. If only my teaching was built around telling me how under par and useless my art was! Sure, as an emotional teen I would have cried, but a good teacher would have said that it wasn't me that was shit, that even though I thought I was trying so hard, I could do better, and not just because "You could do better kiddo" but "I know you can can do better kiddo. If you just sit down, pay attention and put in more hard work than is required."
Many here though have shown the opinion that a real artist with real passions would already know to do so, or simply "do" instinctively. Which definitely places doubt on my mind. I would consider myself extremely passionate (about games in general since I fail at my art so much.) If I am so passionate then why haven't I just gone and done what was necessary without even thinking about it to become the game makers I idolize so much? A strange inability to divorce my convictions from the lazy-ass tendencies? In the end I just do the very thing that started this post, I just play more games (also impossible because there are too many.)
Oh right! Yes for-profit art schools are bupkis. Yet in the end I feel like I learned something...
My 2 cents on this stuff , since i talk about this a lot with my friends
I agree with Penrod. As a student you need to hold yourself 100% accountable for all things. (who the hell puts 80,000 into anything and sits there and goes, "well i hope they take care of all this and make me badass" lolol) Lets be honest , at the end of the day college is a business , their goal is for you to acquire debt when you leave college, they don't make money when you're in , they make it when you are out. It's pretty much a scam , but if you recognize that its a scam then its not a scam anymore and you will work the system to the best of your ability and get the most out of it. School is 100% what you put into it. PERIOD. It's the people that don't get it that are the ones that never get jobs.
You probably need about 10 years to really understand art and design. But these schools try to cram it all in 3 years and hope you come out ok. The problem after that is most students stop learning. Your education will never end! There is always something to learn
Too many students play the victim. If you ever wanted something so badly ( ie working in the entertainment industry) why would you ever leave something like that in the hands of your teachers and career services? I believe in creating in my own destiny and not waiting for fate to kick in, If you want it bad enough you will do whatever it takes to get there with out any excuses of not having the best teachers,programs,computers,books etc etc .I went to a school that was all 3D and I wanted to be a concept artist. No one taught me anything. I just decided that me getting a job was reliant upon me and no one else. I wasn't gonna wait for someone to spoon feed me the information. I went out and found it. Me and a couple buddies complained long enough until they hired one concept art teacher. The problem is students complain but won't do anything about it. To this day we run a concept club at my old school to help students that want to get into it. We even created a sketch-group in my area to help bring other artist together. I didn't complain, instead I thought of solutions to make the situation better. So if your school isn't what you want it to be , then MAKE it what you want it be. I said to myself " Hey I'm spending 80,000 to be here , I better do everything within my power to make this shit work"
Now that's not to say that school is all bad , it taught me a lot of things about working with others and showing me what I did not want to do in my career. Because my school threw so many different aspects at me ( rigging , animation , modeling , texturing,) I can definitely say that concept art was my true passion because I tried everything else. And honestly degrees pretty much don't mean a thing anymore because everyone has one now a days. All that matters is how good you are . My theory is just be "badA$$" and half these problems will disappear : ) . It is true that most companies do require a degree , but that's only really there to make sure that only serious applicants apply, and they figured if you got a degree in it then you are more than likely serious. However, if you are super badass at what you do they always look past that (with the exception of teaching) as opposed to some bad artist that does have one.
In conclusion , understand what the industry level is , and don't stop until your super badass. Art schools are fine. You just need to understand what your getting yourself into and really work the system. Doing it from home is possible but I do think its a little bit hard since your not interacting with others as much.
polycount should set up a school. They could make money and actually deserve it.
TBH though art school is for having fun, getting your character stained and meeting women.
It's something I would like the IGDA to do instead of throw lame get-together parties.
Actually the IGDA D.C. chapter was getting back into motion thanks to the participation of some people in the Milsim industry. Basically your local chapter is as good as the people in it, unfortunately regular game industry folks are drunken frat boys, there was actually a complaint by a member that we were getting too serious and he only went to meetings so he could hang out and drink.
And no, I don't think Polycount should have an official stance condoning (or condemning, if that's what the true intent of this thread was) any school, product or political figure.
And no, I don't think Polycount should have an official stance condoning any school, product or political figure.
Agreed, but I think its a good idea to inform students, its not like going to a normal university, and any school is completely going to upsale their game programs and job placement percentages. For profit schools can be really aggressive at selling their product to students and their parents, and there isn't much online saying the pros and cons about game art education and kids options.
Honestly I think the reasoning "if it wasnt for me going to school, I wouldnt of met the fellow students that helped me do good". That a completely irrelevant argument. True, college is about networking, but thats not why you pay tuition. You pay tuition for what the school says they have. You pay for the education, not the "experience". I attend AI. And some of my teachers have absolutely no business teaching game art classes... Is that worth my massive tuition rate? NO.. Another argument is that students are playing WoW in class and not doing there work... Well its the teachers job to make sure they stop or are dismissed from the class. Obviously you cant make a student learn or pay attention. But its the responsibility of the teacher who is relieving the salary based on your massive tuition to make a relative effort to make sure the student learns... Yes college is what you make it, I agree. But that in no way excuses the school from lack of effort.. The lack of effort by some of the teachers at my school is sickening... At the end of the day, you are paying them. They need to act as such. And placing sole blame on the student is ridicules. The schools need to do a better job taking responsibility for the tuition they collect.
I'm really torn on this. I went to school and i've come to the realization that school isn't exactly necessary if you teach yourself how to learn on your own, but a lot of that came from going to a for profit school and learning the ropes. As others have said the comradre is awesome, having a schedule that forces you to go somewhere to learn helps keep you on track. I'm also 80 grand in debt and seems a bit steep for what i've gained. Dunno what to say really. If i could go back in time i'd do it all again, just wish i'd had more options.
Says the man who could volunteer to help set something up as a member and contact Tom with ideas. Yet throws popcorn at the screen from the sidelines.
No longer a member. The last round of bitch slapping, "vote him out" semi-unprofessional spam coming out of the IGDA, had me running for the door. Not that the IGDA would actually move away from lame parties into the realm of activism. They only seem interested in becoming the next Water Buffalo lodge. I'm done paying dues (or rather having my employer pay dues) for something that only seems interested in chasing drama on a national level, and really lame parties on a local level. I can send off an email if you think it would do any good?
To actually get the IDGA to move on something like setting up curriculum and hiring standards for teachers, I would have to not only run for the board but overthrow it.
In general from an outsiders perspective I can't understand the cost of the american educational system.
I can understand somewhere like harvard or MIT costing hundreds of thousands for a degree. Those schools turn out graduates that earn some of the highest incomes in the world.
But for something that's essentially a trade school or community colledge to charge even close to that is ridiculous.
Community colleges are the cheapest education option, about $5,000 or less a year. Universities are $10-$15. Some trade schools qualify from the gov, but for profit and private schools have to operate almost solely off of student tuition and/or donations. and can cost $30k+ a year.
Just heard on the news that now most for-profit schools are ineligible for Financial Aid. I don't know if it's because of the federal investigations but at least this might turn students away from for-profit schools.
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I think its fine to discuss it and if individuals want to post saying "hey I think these schools are garbage" and a bunch of people agree I think we're fine. But making some kind of official statement just sounds like trouble, but hey with trouble comes press and with press, the cold hard light of day. Their lawsuits would only bring their shady practices more into public view.
We just need Adam to take his pants off for MONEY instead of every chance he gets and we've got the right string of keywords to make headlines!
Meh... I think a good move would be to put together a recommended curriculum and as well as hiring standards for teachers. So instead of pointing fingers and drawing fire, we basically tell people what to look for and by in doing so they decide for themselves. It's something I would like the IGDA to do instead of throw lame get-together parties.
If they where smart about it, they could sell it to schools like other groups sell curriculum. Not driving them out of business but giving them a fucking clue about what we need them to teach candidates.
are you really going to call what the IGDA does "a party", it's more like a bunch of nerds getting together that have no chance of hooking up. I mean seriously, you have alcohol and there are a few girls there. There has to be somebody gettin some. Not to mention the no "gettin down and dancing rule".
Back to the topic...
perhaps a small web page, linked to polycount, that lists a recommend curriculum and course content. we should also make it easy for someone to Google it and have it show up within the first 5 results.
absolute truth, this is why i feel cheated. I went to Illinois institute or Art i wouldnt mind paying good money as long as teh education was good. But i feel cheated cause program sucked
I've always wondered why more game companies haven't gotten involved with the education of their employees. The current business model makes entry difficult for everyone, because all the game studios want are experienced workers. But the very best place for anyone to get experience making games is in game companies.
I think it would be a good idea for some of the larger publishers to establish their own educational "institutes" and staff them with industry professionals from the studios they publish games for. There are any number of ways they could incentivize such a program. A school like this would always have experienced, capable teachers, and the curriculum could be focused purely on game production. Since it would be more of a training center than a traditional accredited university, they would also be able to use it as a think-tank for developing new IP and experimental gameplay. (that the publisher would then own)
I agree but a wiki page devoted to education couldn't hurt.
I think the Guild Wars guys have their own school dont they?
Whats his name(stoofoo?) does something, lessons and has trialled an online version.
Like many people have said already, you have to be very self-motivated and driven in order to get something out of your school etc etc.
For europeans/Non americans wanting to get a job in the US, an education is almost a must though, unless you're a total rockstar and can get a O1 Visa, or whatever its called.
I can't say that my time at my swedish school was very gratifying or rewarding but in the end, those years made it possible for me to go overseas and get me the job i always wanted.
So what im trying to say is as a future student, think beyond your entry job and try and envision where you want to be in 5-10 years time because choosing whether going for an education may or may not bite you in the ass years down the line.
This.
I still feel like they probably charge us a bit too much @30K a year but there are some good teachers there. Plus you get an ok grounding in traditional art (I don't feel they push this nearly enough for the digital artists)
Key thing is listening to other students and knowing the teachers to avoid, because there are indeed a few that won't teach you anything. AAU sports a full 4 year BFA in game design, it's still very much a work in progress, but I've seen some really excellent artwork come from people here. I would say the school's only major weakness at present is a lack of push towards students learning game editors more fully. They do get a solid grounding in game art, but there's a definite lack of game engine experience. However they've been developing some game "mod" projects to get students involved in Unity so we'll see how helpful that is.
If nothing else I feel AAU's location right in downtown San Francisco can't hurt any, since there are so many casual game developers right in the area. Seeing how that's how a lot of us find our first jobs it works out ok.
Just my thoughts...
P.S. their website is grossly outdated, but you can see some of what people are doing at the message board one of our teachers setup for the students...
Here's work from this year's spring show...
http://www.academyart.edu/spring_show_2010/gallery.jsp?department=Game+Design
One of our teachers also setup a message board we use to critique each others work.
http://www.gamestepper.com/forums/?
But (from my experience and what I have read) they are sometimes too broad, (I had modules on modelling, animation, digital compositing, match moving, shader writing, etc.) or two focused and not giving students everything they need to know.
SkillSet have a list of game industry accredited courses, but I cant be sure if they are as good as they say they are.
What I did get out of my course was working with a group of like minded people. Working with artists kept me inspired and interested.
What would be useful would to students choosing schools or courses would be an idea of what they should look for in a computer game course. In hindsight the biggest thing my course missed was some kind of game focused programming module, c++ etc.
If anyone were to ask me if I would recommend my school to someone I would say no, unless I knew the person and knew how much drive he/she had. While saying that, though, I've enjoyed my experience thus far.
I agree with most of the things here saying that school's what you make it and most of the people in my school come expecting that by the end will be able to land a great job at some top studio, which is highly unlikely. A lot of the things about how the program is set up I think could definitely be improved as the first 6 months are pretty much filled with useless classes. I thin though the biggest problem with the course is the grade system. So far I've only had one teacher who gives generally honest grades. The rest all are very easy on grades and C's are only handed out to people who practically didn't show up for class. However, the critique the teachers give are great. While they tend to stay away from harsher comments which I wish they didn't, they usually have some fantastic advice which I see usually gets completely ignored. And that's the biggest problem. Every teacher I have had has a great interest in your success ONLY if you are interested in it too, and I think most people who are going into Art colleges are lured in by the advertisements and recruiters and think, 'hey, if I go to this school, work the minimum amount of time, experience a 'normal' college life, in only years I'll be pro', which is very untrue. I honestly think they should just scrap the traditional 'grading' system and focus solely on critique because in the end, no matter what critique you get, most people look at there 'A' or 'B' and are happy.
Anyways, this has all been said before so I'll stop my rant. But that's the thing, if you seek out those teachers by yourself outside of class like Autocon said way back, they do help and do bring a lot of experience with them.
I think another thing which has been great about the school is it does offer a lot of opportunities which are largely taken for granted. We have figure drawing every weekend which is only attended by a few, but this and Guest lectures from Industry Pros (again, optional) have been two things that consistently challenge and inspire me and I would say that that along with some of the teachers was well worth the price of admission.
Don't really know what my point is, I guess I don't have one, but just felt like I should share.
Theres two things to be condoned here :
- for profit schools misleasing uninformed students and promissing them something that they claim its thru shelling out 50k .
- People that before making the decision of shelling out that ammount of money dont seem to remember using google to research , i mean seriously , whats wrong with people ? your about to shell out that ammount of money and you dont even research the school ,teachers and what you will be taught ??
ITs like this trend on society where everyone decides for everyone whats good and bad , instead of promoting free thinking and using logic to see if spending that money is even worth !!
theres alot more but it already was mentioned im sure.
The problem with hiring instructors a lot of the time, Vig, is that there are certain criteria within the schools in order to even qualify to teach. For instance, at my school where I've been trying to get a position to help steer people in the right direction with everything, you need a Bachelor's degree in order to teach an Associate's degree program, Master's to teach Bachelor's, etc...I'm not sure how many schools do it this way (might even be state mandates, for all I know), but this probably leads to many of the problems with inexperienced instructors. As vcortis mentioned earlier, if someone with a Master's degree has to teach the class, they most likely have little to no industry experience. I know my single instructor for all of my game/production art classes was pretty much learning everything on his own just ahead of all of us (given, it is a fairly new program at our school), so I tried to help where I could with what knowledge I have gained from here, but you can only do so much sometimes.
People still have the mindset college = jobs like it meant 20 years ago.
and kids and parents don't really know what to look for. Lots of college say they'll prepare you for a job with the industry and you'll have a completed portfolio by the end of 2-4 years. And how do these people know what kind of work qualifies for an entry level job? I know in high school (we had a "basic" animation program) if I ever asked to see a teacher portfolio I would of been sent to the office, and I think kids don't know what they should be looking for in teachers.
I still think we could do a school guide and talk about the education system as a whole.
I remember Ben Mathis lamenting about the crazy requirements when he was trying to work his way into teaching. He really has a heart for teaching (or he did...).BUT that only applies to degrees.
Most of the good schools like Gnomon, where you load up on skill and degree be damned. Of course they operate in the same murky waters as the rest of the for profits BUT their reputation, their instructors and their curriculum stand out. there is a good chance that whatever fix congress applies to the for profit school issues will seriously screw over some of the really great schools. Well except for Feng Zhu, dude set up shop out of country... smart bastard.
This is why the industry demands actual proof and why the portfolio is king.
You don't need shipped titles to land a job, you need experience.
You don't need a degree, you need practice.
You don't need amazing instructors to show which buttons to push. You need to push F1.
You do need to demonstrate you can actually do the job you're applying for. Lucky for a lot of us that can happen a few different ways.
The more things you can tack onto your proof, like Autocon's degree, the better off your chances are. But that stuff is just window dressing, if you don't have the main ceterpiece (proof) you have nothing. Autocon would of landed a job regardless, like Vahl, like Jelmer Boskma, like so many others that have gone to school and gone on to great things. The school didn't make them awesome it just helped them realize and refine it.
If you dropped whatsherface in gnomon or sat her down with Feng Zhu they would be unable to crack her head open and pour in the awesomeness she wanted. Its not the teacher, or the school that makes someone exceptional, those are just tools available to the student as they hone their craft.
The problem is, and this is what everyone is pretty much bitching about, there is no single concise and up-to-date document on what getting into games actually means at a grass roots level, it's just anecdotal stuff about "when I woz working for 'X'" or some treatise on game development as a philosophy.. that's not helpful to anyone and it doesn't help solve this problem.
There is a need for some concise info on this written up by someone and I can't really think of anywhere better than PolyCount.
FXPHD is interesting becuase while its video tutorial based and pre recorded it gets updated frequently and if demand in a course is high enough they shoot new videos to help with specific subjects. Its a shame no one does this for games, there is honest money to be made in actually helping folks and teaching them relavent up to date skills.
I went to such a school, but my school (FIEA - UCF) is a masters degree program. The only real reason it's a master's degree program is because Full Sail forced it to be because of a pending lawsuit against UCF and the city of Orlando for unfair competition. FIEA was pretty much funded by the city of Orlando. I think the school is beyond awesome and they do what a lot of other schools don't... bring the connections to you. It's one thing to be good, but this industry it about who you know and who you get introduced. Before you're final semesters we'd had EA, Midway, Lockheed, local companies and others come to the students for interviews, not the other way around.
Also a lot of these schools have teachers with no connections and teachers who themselves haven't done anything major in the industry. At FIEA, my teacher made the Godzilla 2000 movie model, pretty much the majority of the models in the movie Antz, was a lead character artist AND animator at Microsoft Studios and that's just him. The rest of the staff of art teachers, producers, and programmers also have worked on amazing things and know what they're talking about and understand the industry fully. I knew all of this beforehand and people like Johnny said NEED to do the research. I talked to several students, took tours, and got to know the staff before I committed my funds to that program.
Find out the teacher's names and google them, look them up on linkedin, whatever it takes to fully research what you're getting into. No one would just walk onto a car lot and buy a random car for 40+K without doing some research.
And like everyone else said, it's what you put into it. You can't go to an art school and cry that after 4 years you still can't draw. Damn, were you really trying? Going to class and that's it is not enough to obtain that kind of talent. One thing all the great artists have in common is a hard work. I don't know any great artist that didn't work extra hard on their own time to become great. Not one
An fxphd like site for games would blow my mind...I would instantly give money provided it was start up by actual credible people.
Bringing such a lawsuit in itself would show guilt. Before a lawsuit they would try scare tactics like cease and desist. Which 90% of the time is all they use as they think most people will cave in versus ignoring and leaving the company having to try to pursue real litigation. And again, I said just keep to the facts. Moreover I added we could have two voices one whom went with a good experience. One whom went without. Does not the amount of threads we get here from students or former students of these show you that sitting back and just writing a guideline will do much of anything? Will that reach these potential students when they search (those few that do) about what their program can actually do?
Says the man who could volunteer to help set something up as a member and contact Tom with ideas. Yet throws popcorn at the screen from the sidelines.
i had the opportunity to try out whatever i wanted with the tech at school. i got to work with motion capturing systems, 3d scanner&printer, photo/hd video cameras and dollys, a sound studio, blue/green screens, pen tablets, renderfarms, different software packages etc.
sure, most of the teachers/classes were kinda meh, but it's not like us students don't know about gnomon/digital tutors/eat 3d, which was the primary source of information for most of us. the profs basically gave us projects to work on, gave us feedback and heads up on what tools/programs/techniques we should look into depending on what we were working on. rarely were they trying to show us which buttons we had to click.
another great thing was being around alot of other students, sharing your interests, sharing information and helping each other out, keeping yourself up to date with whats going on in the industry, and making alot of valueable contacts - which helped me get my first job and also a few freelance jobs from other former students with different skillsets whenever they needed some 3d stuff done.
i also have asked teachers if they knew of any freelance jobs, and they usually were able to help out
overall i'd say these were the best years of my life, with lots of freetime and lots of parties, too. even tho i could have self thought what i needed to knew much faster and way more efficiently i guess. and could have saved a few years time.
on the financial aspect, i can't really comment on us schools, other than that i wouldn't have been able to afford it :P in germany, college/university is usually "free", except for a fee you have to pay every semester which is usually 100-200€ depending on school, and you can apply for government aid if your family isn't wealthy enough to pay the rent/food while you're in school
We're not debating the pros and cons of formal schooling versus self-teaching, but the fundamentally flawed premise and outright lies on which many schools are selling their programs, how they represent themselves and how their entire business model is based on bullshit. It's awesome that a lot of people here seem to have realized this quickly, or even better from the very outset, but it isn't looking at the actual problem.
Seems like the amount of posts stating the obvious that you only get out what you put in outweigh the number of posts addressing the issue of how these schools make their money by saying anything and everything to sell their weak curricula taught by unqualified tutors at maximum profit.
As hard as it might be, I think we have to separate our own personal experiences and look at the issue objectively if this discussion is going to progress.
Anyway, there are lots of sketchy "schools" out there trying to teach people to do just about everything, and game art is just one of the more recent trends. I don't think there's anything illegal about it unless they guarantee results. If people have specific experiences or questions then they can already voice it here, and I don't think it's Polycount's responsibility to try and take a "stance" on something that can be so difficult to evaluate without a lot of thorough investigation.
Actually, how these "schools" make their money is part of what these federal investigations are looking into. And how is a potential student supposed to ask questions on polycount if they don't even know it exists. How will they know the difference between a good curriculum and a bad one? This is where I think polycount can do something about it and I think I'm not alone here. It's not like we're trying to baby people. But some general information could really help people make the right decision. We should at least care about our fellow artists a little bit.
We just need an official guide to game art education.
It's not that I don't care that people are getting screwed over, but if a potential student doesn't know Polycount exists then I'm not sure how having Polycount make a stand on the matter would get their attention... unless you're suggesting embarking on some campaign larger than the scope of what the current web site is. Who would fund such an endeavor? And what exactly should this stance entail that would make it a legitimate resource for potential students?
If we make a strong article I'm sure it'll get reposted and mentioned on bigger and more popular places.
That's what I hope we can start discussing. I may not have any industry experience yet but I can tell people what to avoid and what to look out for. Getting the word out is not as hard as you might think. many of us probably still have some people they know from school that could pass along this info. Not to mention many of us are still IGDA members. We could also make sure that our information can be easily google searched. I'm sure there are plenty of ideas floating around in our heads, I just saying I'd like for us to at least start a discussion. Of course Adam would have the final word.
The problem here is what is perceived as best. Only after I finished my course at one of these places did I realize how crap I truly was (which I'm sure is the experience of most of these kids at these places.) Therefore during the study I thought it was tough stuff, and that I was simply "good enough" HA such a dirty couple of words for anything that's considered a profession. If only my teaching was built around telling me how under par and useless my art was! Sure, as an emotional teen I would have cried, but a good teacher would have said that it wasn't me that was shit, that even though I thought I was trying so hard, I could do better, and not just because "You could do better kiddo" but "I know you can can do better kiddo. If you just sit down, pay attention and put in more hard work than is required."
Many here though have shown the opinion that a real artist with real passions would already know to do so, or simply "do" instinctively. Which definitely places doubt on my mind. I would consider myself extremely passionate (about games in general since I fail at my art so much.) If I am so passionate then why haven't I just gone and done what was necessary without even thinking about it to become the game makers I idolize so much? A strange inability to divorce my convictions from the lazy-ass tendencies? In the end I just do the very thing that started this post, I just play more games (also impossible because there are too many.)
Oh right! Yes for-profit art schools are bupkis. Yet in the end I feel like I learned something...
I agree with Penrod. As a student you need to hold yourself 100% accountable for all things. (who the hell puts 80,000 into anything and sits there and goes, "well i hope they take care of all this and make me badass" lolol) Lets be honest , at the end of the day college is a business , their goal is for you to acquire debt when you leave college, they don't make money when you're in , they make it when you are out. It's pretty much a scam , but if you recognize that its a scam then its not a scam anymore and you will work the system to the best of your ability and get the most out of it. School is 100% what you put into it. PERIOD. It's the people that don't get it that are the ones that never get jobs.
You probably need about 10 years to really understand art and design. But these schools try to cram it all in 3 years and hope you come out ok. The problem after that is most students stop learning. Your education will never end! There is always something to learn
Too many students play the victim. If you ever wanted something so badly ( ie working in the entertainment industry) why would you ever leave something like that in the hands of your teachers and career services? I believe in creating in my own destiny and not waiting for fate to kick in, If you want it bad enough you will do whatever it takes to get there with out any excuses of not having the best teachers,programs,computers,books etc etc .I went to a school that was all 3D and I wanted to be a concept artist. No one taught me anything. I just decided that me getting a job was reliant upon me and no one else. I wasn't gonna wait for someone to spoon feed me the information. I went out and found it. Me and a couple buddies complained long enough until they hired one concept art teacher. The problem is students complain but won't do anything about it. To this day we run a concept club at my old school to help students that want to get into it. We even created a sketch-group in my area to help bring other artist together. I didn't complain, instead I thought of solutions to make the situation better. So if your school isn't what you want it to be , then MAKE it what you want it be. I said to myself " Hey I'm spending 80,000 to be here , I better do everything within my power to make this shit work"
Now that's not to say that school is all bad , it taught me a lot of things about working with others and showing me what I did not want to do in my career. Because my school threw so many different aspects at me ( rigging , animation , modeling , texturing,) I can definitely say that concept art was my true passion because I tried everything else. And honestly degrees pretty much don't mean a thing anymore because everyone has one now a days. All that matters is how good you are . My theory is just be "badA$$" and half these problems will disappear : ) . It is true that most companies do require a degree , but that's only really there to make sure that only serious applicants apply, and they figured if you got a degree in it then you are more than likely serious. However, if you are super badass at what you do they always look past that (with the exception of teaching) as opposed to some bad artist that does have one.
In conclusion , understand what the industry level is , and don't stop until your super badass. Art schools are fine. You just need to understand what your getting yourself into and really work the system. Doing it from home is possible but I do think its a little bit hard since your not interacting with others as much.
TBH though art school is for having fun, getting your character stained and meeting women.
Actually the IGDA D.C. chapter was getting back into motion thanks to the participation of some people in the Milsim industry. Basically your local chapter is as good as the people in it, unfortunately regular game industry folks are drunken frat boys, there was actually a complaint by a member that we were getting too serious and he only went to meetings so he could hang out and drink.
And no, I don't think Polycount should have an official stance condoning (or condemning, if that's what the true intent of this thread was) any school, product or political figure.
Agreed, but I think its a good idea to inform students, its not like going to a normal university, and any school is completely going to upsale their game programs and job placement percentages. For profit schools can be really aggressive at selling their product to students and their parents, and there isn't much online saying the pros and cons about game art education and kids options.
To actually get the IDGA to move on something like setting up curriculum and hiring standards for teachers, I would have to not only run for the board but overthrow it.
I can understand somewhere like harvard or MIT costing hundreds of thousands for a degree. Those schools turn out graduates that earn some of the highest incomes in the world.
But for something that's essentially a trade school or community colledge to charge even close to that is ridiculous.