Having attended a course for Game Design & Development, I must say that the teachers mostly know basics only. At the course I attended, the focus was pretty wide (spanning actual game design, programming and 2d/3d production), it is only logical that the material was not very thorough. It did however offer a good insight into the structure of how games are developed (and designed) and allowed students to pick their specialization.
How many times do we see people who want to do 'game art'? Their definition of 'game art' is actually (character) concept art. They are oblivious to the fact that they will not enter the market as the person who designs the main characters for a game. At the course, 90% of the artists did not stick any more attention into different art production tasks (such as modeling, texturing, animation, etc, etc), because they wanted to be an 'ARTIST'.
The people who have been badmouthing these educations are usually 'artists' of this type. There were some guys that would draw every second they were breathing and they were able to get into the game business as concept artists, but for the rest of them, it wouldn't have hurt if they had picked up some production skills, such as modeling, texturing or animation, to help them in their quest for a job in the game industry.
If you're going to say that you could have taught yourself all the stuff that you should have learned at the school, then why didn't they feel inspired to do so during the course? The course probably put them in front of some kind of art production program, yet they never tried to go beyond what they were taught at the school? Give me a break.
Another point is that art production at a decent level requires either talent or lots of experience or some combination of both. During the course, at least you have plenty of time to gain experience.
The pieces that the girl which was on Kotaku showed in her Youtube video were not game related, of which she reminds the viewer explicitly. Why did it never occur to her that she should try to make something game related instead? Why didn't she try to make a level for UT or something similar? Is it that hard to deduct what kind of stuff a gaming company would like to see in your portfolio? Did the school forbid her to make stuff that actually loads up in a game? This girl actually had a model of a female character which shows potential and she probably could have gotten to a level decent enough to land a job if she had kept at it.
If your going to pay plenty for an education, the least you could do is demand a certain level of quality during the course and not cry afterward. You should at least have a goal for the level you would like to attain, when you enter. If you enter wanting to be as good as the Blizzard/Pixar/Disney/Epic/Bungie/whatever art guys, you would probably do more than what a school gives you for homework to get there. Alas, your heroes are not working at the school you are attending, so it's up to you to improve. The school might teach you how to use the tools, but it won't magically grant you art hero status when you graduate.
Fryght,i think you are missing the point here,these schools are making big promises about the quality of the education and charge insane prices for these so called education.I think you are making many wide spread assumptions based on your education but the level of quality in other schools are much much lower.
How many times do we see people who want to do 'game art'? Their definition of 'game art' is actually (character) concept art. They are oblivious to the fact that they will not enter the market as the person who designs the main characters for a game. At the course, 90% of the artists did not stick any more attention into different art production tasks (such as modeling, texturing, animation, etc, etc), because they wanted to be an 'ARTIST'.
That is the point of an education,ideally you should learn about the different roles and techniques associated with the development process. My Art Insitute told me my abilities would be applicable towards game development, but aside from basic interface nothing of particular focus was taught. I was 18,i knew a wanted to make games for a living but didnt know what exactly i needed to learn to do so and i wrongly assumed the AI would do that. I imagine there are alot of young kids who are "oblivious" to that as well and whats wrong with that? you go to school to learn.
My education if can call it that consisted of courses that did not apply to game development,1 year of a two year course was entirely devoted to subjects like math,psychology and social studies. The fine art courses were useful but then it left 30% of a two year course actually devoted to learning 3d .
The people who have been badmouthing these educations are usually 'artists' of this type. There were some guys that would draw every second they were breathing and they were able to get into the game business as concept artists, but for the rest of them, it wouldn't have hurt if they had picked up some production skills, such as modeling, texturing or animation, to help them in their quest for a job in the game industry.
again where will you pick up any of these concepts if your school does not even cover them in a course devoted to game development with no actual faculty who have had experience in this. Your basically calling people lazy because they did not learn about techniques they have no idea about.These schools should cover these topics to give the students at least something to begin with.
With two months left to go i was beginning to finally figure out that there was no way i was going to be hireable when i finished school,alot of students as well as myself had a good grasp of the fact that our school did not fulfill their promise of a quality education. Students finally started to figure out where to look for the proper techniques to get a job in game development after they had a grasp of what it was to work in 3d.
Its easy to blame these "artist" for not knowing any better but this off course is where these schools fail,granted there were lazy students who didnt take these classes seriously but there were also many who were hungry for information but did not know where to find it,i found about polycount through word of mouth a month or so prior to graduation and after that is when i fully grasped how much of a ripp off my school was.
I think that part of the difficulty with having a game design course is that game design itself has so many aspects, and can be anything from brainstorming ideas and prototyping, to concept art, to 2d sprites, to 3d - characters, props, environments, and the modelling, texturing, rigging and animation for each - to getting familiar with game engines. And over and above that, in order to have students who're going to enter the industry, they're probably going to need to specialise in only a few (or just one) of those.
In order to get the students support in their chosen speciality, you'd pretty much need specialists in every area of the pipeline.
I'm obviously against fail promises and school fees that are far in excess of (junior) earning potential, but even in a hypothetical situation where a school wanted to create a good game design course, there are just so many considerations and so many specialists you might need to hire, that the fees might need to be high anyway.
Game development can be broken down in to a number of key 'positions' - artists, coders, designers etc., so right there you already have a basic criteria upon which to build coursework that teaches principles involved with each discipline; eduction isn't (shouldn't?) really about specialisation that early in the development of a career as that's usually the kind of thing you learn on the job as your skill-set grows and develops over time.
JO420, I see your point. If the school indeed fails at introducing students to various aspects, then it's not a very good school. I was indeed talking from my experience, where the school did introduce plenty of aspects and taught the basics. After that, it was up to the students to polish their skills. The school stimulated this by having projects each semester, by having you do a mandatory internship and by working with real clients in the final school years to give you a sense of what real production stress is like. In this environment we had plenty of 'artists', who wouldn't even bother to draw up modeling sheets so that I could model their designs during projects.
I was going by the impression the lady who was on Kotaku gave me: The models she made in her classes show that she has learned the basics, but I don't think she showed any models she made outside of school assignments. That, to me, is an indication of a certain laziness. During your job interview, the company will surely ask you for work you made outside of school assignments, to check how creative you are. If you really want to be an artist, you should at least be able to show enough work to convince them of your motivation and passion. Especially for those who want to work 2D, they should be drawing a lot already.
I do agree that most of these schools reel in oblivious teens and then rip them off. That said, I also don't think that the time span of these courses nets you enough experience to land a job in the industry easily. Especially with game art production, experience is something that is very important. You need to be able to output quality work at a decent pace. When you lack both quality and speed, then your chances at landing a job are slim to none. Speed is something you can improve on just by practicing a lot.
I think that part of the difficulty with having a game design course is that game design itself has so many aspects, and can be anything from brainstorming ideas and prototyping, to concept art, to 2d sprites, to 3d - characters, props, environments, and the modelling, texturing, rigging and animation for each - to getting familiar with game engines. And over and above that, in order to have students who're going to enter the industry, they're probably going to need to specialise in only a few (or just one) of those.
Or am I over-complicating things? :P
Actually, I think this is an excellent point. Game design has become so intricate, and the subject is incredibly varied by nature. The number of disciplines that it encompases is immense. A school that focuses on just game art can't legitimately claim to be a game design school. Art, literature, programming, mathematics, history, architecture, interior design, theatre... the list goes on and on. All of these elements are useful and desireable when producing a game.
This is a large reason for why I always encourage prospective game developers to go to traditional liberal-arts colleges. (instead of specialized game schools) With the cirriculums at lib-arts universities, students are exposed to a broad range of educational subjects. They can specialize in their major of choice, but they are required to at least get a taste of all these other influences. Some might view them as a distraction. I feel that these are necessary for a well-rounded game designer.
You have to ask yourself if you want to be crafted as a cog for a machine. Specialized game schools are designed to target a very narrow focus. Although it can be argued that this is an efficient way to prepare for a job in the current industry, I question whether it is best for game design.
JO420, I see your point. If the school indeed fails at introducing students to various aspects, then it's not a very good school. I was indeed talking from my experience, where the school did introduce plenty of aspects and taught the basics. After that, it was up to the students to polish their skills. The school stimulated this by having projects each semester, by having you do a mandatory internship and by working with real clients in the final school years to give you a sense of what real production stress is like. In this environment we had plenty of 'artists', who wouldn't even bother to draw up modeling sheets so that I could model their designs during projects.
I was going by the impression the lady who was on Kotaku gave me: The models she made in her classes show that she has learned the basics, but I don't think she showed any models she made outside of school assignments. That, to me, is an indication of a certain laziness. During your job interview, the company will surely ask you for work you made outside of school assignments, to check how creative you are. If you really want to be an artist, you should at least be able to show enough work to convince them of your motivation and passion. Especially for those who want to work 2D, they should be drawing a lot already.
I do agree that most of these schools reel in oblivious teens and then rip them off. That said, I also don't think that the time span of these courses nets you enough experience to land a job in the industry easily. Especially with game art production, experience is something that is very important. You need to be able to output quality work at a decent pace. When you lack both quality and speed, then your chances at landing a job are slim to none. Speed is something you can improve on just by practicing a lot.
What a shame she has to be the postergirl for this issue,i agree with you that she seems to be someone who smacks of laziness. We had our fair share of those as well. But then there are those who genuinely want to make it so bad and they are the ones who really get screwed over majorly in the process
I'm being serious:poly124:, it probably isnt economically viable, because its all paid up front. But for something like a three year course it should only be paid a year ahead. With the prices of the these they are way beyond cost anyway. I dont know, I havent really thought it through.
Also realistically anybody can learn anything, if persons dont learn something then it is the fault of the school(unless the students are lazy good for nothings, which in that case, for theirs and everyone elses benefit, they should be got rid of, turned into food soylent green type).
I dont really see how you can have for profit schools, learning is for the benefit of the students, (its mostly altruistic, the effort put in is always greater than what you get out), for profits garantees the students will be stiffed.
Thought i would share my experience. I just graduated with a bachlors in Game art and design from Westwood, a really small for profit school, like ITT/robert morris college (less than 500 people on my campus of many different degrees).
Now for the most part i would say MY education was beneficial but for a couple reasons only.
1. half of my teachers (in my major, not the gen-ed teachers) are actually former students of the college who had to basically teach themselves because their teachers did not know what they were talking about well enough. These guys then began teaching and taught me. So i learned from all their experience and problems they overcame.
2. other half of my teachers have spent time in the industry in one form or another.
3. i have a massive drive to learn and do stuff on my own. Ive been watching eat3d, gnomen, and anything else that i could get my hands on since almost first term. I have almost 70-80 gigs of tutorial videos, and more bookmarked online. I've been doing personal projects outside of school and working on them actually more than my school projects. i even "taught" several of my classes to students who wanted to know how to really do something rather than just following blindly.
4. We actually have an unusual curriculum. we take classes in textures, modeling, animation, UDK (yah we actually have an entire class devoted to UDK), character design, flash, game design process, story boarding, and even a portfolio class. Now the classes themselves present opportunities for learning but again its like anything else u get out of it what u put in.
so with talented teachers and a strong drive i was able to get alot out of school. However, at the same time this only reflects me. so i would say i was in the right place at the right time to receive the education that i did. ive seen many people graduate before and after me that have virtually no skills whats so ever, but they are the people who did what was expected of them in class and did no outside work themselves.
so in summary, would i recommend school? TBH despite my good experience i would say probably not, though having a degree behind your name is nice for many reasons. Most of these schools are ALOT of money to spend for only a couple of good teachers. Beyond that, there is only so much that u can learn from a traditional school environment, alot of what u need to learn, u just need to do yourself. I would say a good community college and alot of practice and self discipline is probably the way to go, unless u can find that right place right time kinda situation, but even then i just don't thing the cost is really worth it.
...and on one final note, Adam i totally understand with the don't use school work for portfolio's. I had several teachers who kept telling me "Do your best! try to get one portfolio piece from every class u take" when i brought up that having a sphere with a couple squares coming out of it with a 3pt light setup wasn't suitable for a portfolio piece u should have seen the uproar i caused. so many students are having this drilled into their heads, when instead they should be using the knowledge they have gained to make other things on their own for their portfolio's.
There's also a big difference between what a teacher wants to see in a portfolio and what someone hiring from a studio wants to see. A teacher wants to see improvement and progression, the student wants to see your best work. And a lot of people get stuck with the school impression of a portfolio.
Disillusioned students are speaking out against for-profit schools offering advanced degrees in culinary arts and other disciplines, and lawmakers are taking on the Wall Street bankers who are profiting.
There are a lot of over-priced school programs out there that cannot always realistically teach well enough to land someone a job. Some of these schools are 3-4 year programs too!
I am a student from Alaska, and I spent months researching the pros and cons of pretty much every school in North America, eventually deciding on a year-long intensive training center in Vancouver, B.C. The school's name is Think tank Training Centre, and I ended up choosing it because:
All teachers are current industry professionals (lighting instructor is lead VFX at CIS, maya instructor is rigging artist at EA games, acting instructor is retired Disney animator, ect)
Class size is small (12 students accepted every semester means more personal time w/ instructors)
3rd semester is devoted to demo reels only, and every student is assigned a personal professional mentor to work with (I might get the lead lighting director of propaganda games! so excited!)
No bullshit classes! This school doesn't give a shit about art history or English classes. If it won't help with getting a job, then it will not be taught.
No computer sharing! Everyone get own personal computer to use
If you don't land a job right out of school, you can stay at Think Tank and keep working on demo reel as long as you want, using school facilities and any/all software and resources.
And best of all, since it is a smaller facility and a shorter program, it is only 30 grand for an entire year (and we learn just as well (if not better) as a bigger school like VFS)
I guess the point I am trying to make is that people should RESEARCH THEIR BRAINS OUT before choosing to go to a school to learn about 3d/gaming/animating/whatever. Read crap-tons of reviews, pros/cons, and compare prices and lengths, and google stalk and contact current students and alumni. I did, and I am SO happy I went to the lengths to find the perfect school to become the best modeler/texture artist possible.
A lot of schools out there SUCK or the most part (I've seen some stuff from AI, some universities that people are making in their second years that my class was able to make after a month or two of learning).
I also think its really interesting that a lot of universities have "game design" programs, for people who want to be"game designers".
"game design" is such a broad field that students with no professional experience could not possible get jobs. The programs touch on many aspects of the game industry in a generalist way with no real specializations in anything, which is a sure recipe for joblessness.
Like for me, I am so happy I found a school that has half a year of a generalist approach, then another half of focusing on a specialization. Specialization is a much safer route for students.
I would beg of the industry to publically protest these for profit schools. I myself am still in the process of teaching myself what the schools "missed"
We need a decent article on Gamasutra also.
I would beg of the industry to publically protest these for profit schools. I myself am still in the process of teaching myself what the schools "missed"
We need a decent article on Gamasutra also.
I wrote an article on my college experience and some of my criticism of for profit schools. I waiting for approval by the editor.
I couldn't get the Gamasutra editor to publish my article so I just put it in a blog.
Hardly surprising - Gamasutra is owned by UBM (United Business Media) who also publish the Game Career Guide site which receives significant sponsorship funding from the Art Institutes, among other 'media partners'.
No bullshit classes! This school doesn't give a shit about art history or English classes. If it won't help with getting a job, then it will not be taught.
I agree with no bullshit classes but art history course, I would recommend that to anyone. Great way to draw inspiration from and you learn from the masters to.
I dont really see how you can have for profit schools, learning is for the benefit of the students, (its mostly altruistic, the effort put in is always greater than what you get out), for profits garantees the students will be stiffed.
Yes. All kinds of agreement from here. Especially bad are the teachers who just want to clock in 8 hours and get paid. Works at McDonalds but methinks educators should be held to a higher standard.
What a shame she has to be the postergirl for this issue,i agree with you that she seems to be someone who smacks of laziness. We had our fair share of those as well. But then there are those who genuinely want to make it so bad and they are the ones who really get screwed over majorly in the process
Yes. That is so true. Who gives a shit about the people who just won't work, that's their own problem. But it doesn't mean the rest of us weren't/aren't getting shafted. Also in agreement with the big post from before, but too much text here already.
Now my 2 cents:
Just throwing in my experience at school. By no means should this be taken as a description of the situation at most schools. I've only gone to the one and it's the only one I am even remotely qualified to talk about.
As an intro I'd like to quote one of my teachers who said something that makes a lot of sense: "I think it's important to remember that it's very difficult for a student to judge the merits of a program they are currently taking [or are planning to take] because a student simply does not possess enough experience to make a realistic assessment of what they need to know to be successful in any industry". As valuable as research may be, you can still make the wrong choice after all because all you do is from your own understanding, unless you are lucky enough to know an established professional who can help you. If your understanding is flawed, so are the results of your research. And corrupt and dishonest institutions will try their very best to muddy the waters.
<rant>
Just graduated near the top of my class from an intensive (1 year) program over at Interdec College over here in MTL. And whoo boy was that ever a bad experience.
Let's leave out the teachers being inexperienced, the best teachers I had there was teaching for the first time in their life and they did a great job. However, I had one teacher who could barely speak English or French (he was fired the semester after he taught us.), at one point the school owned less 3ds max licenses than the total number of students so it was impossible for the entire class to participate. I even taught a Zbrush class as the 1st (and only) assignment from our Zbrush teacher, I should note that the dude never actually taught a class, it was all workshops and students walking other students through tutorials they didn't understand (that includes mine). But the topper is that I was actually told to "F*ck off, you lazy idiot" by a teacher for asking him a question outside of class hours (and this wasn't just me, he said that to quite a few ppl in my class). Same teacher also told me "Your work is fine, I just gave you a bad grade because you're a lazy f*ck." when I asked him what I could improve in my project. Administration brushed me off when I brought it up. Several times.
As I mentioned before I graduated near the top of my class, 100% in a few classes. Take a look at my portfolio. Is that enough to get a job? HELL NO! Then why didn't I fail? Seems logical, the objective of the program was to "create a professional portfolio demonstrating the skills necessary to succeed in the industry". ONE dude out of the 20 of us did this. Is this because 19 of us were lazy pricks unwilling to put in the effort? I don't know, that may be true for a few out of those 19 but for most of us it wasn't the same. I clearly remember a point where I went: "Screw this, I doesn't matter what I do, they'll tell me it's good even if it sucks." so I started posting things at CGSociety and ppl laughed at me (and they were justified). Through their (sometimes harsh) criticism I began to get a clearer picture of what the industry standards were and what I needed to learn which I had not received from school. (I.E: At that point I thought roadkill was the standard way to unwrap as none of our teachers seemed to know about the UV Unwrap modifier in max until my animation teacher in semester 2!) When I brought these concerns to the teachers and administration I was brushed off and belittled (excepting the one teacher).
That shit just ain't right, no matter which way you slice it. Maybe there was more I could have done outside of class. I'm trying to do it now. But for me that year was my love for game art being assaulted from all sides. It's all black and blue now, with many sore spots, but it's slowly starting to heal as I get further and further away from that school. All the online resources have been a tremendous help, as has switching from max to blender and from photoshop to GIMP. Going through basic interface tutorials calmed me down and brought back some of the magic I thought was gone forever.
</rant>
In conclusion, I would say that it may not be appropriate to condemn for profit schools wholesale, but people should still speak up when they get a really crappy experience. If it can save one person's passion from being trampled underfoot until it is completely lifeless, it's good enough for me. Who knows, that dude in my class who gave up might have grown to be a top notch artist with the right support (god knows he could draw like the mother-beast and he could model pretty good for a 1st semester student, he just wasn't that good with file names and extensions, rendering and other techie stuff, but no-one was there for him and he though he just wasn't good enough). Not everyone has the ability to push forward no matter what's going on around them, that doesn't mean they'll never be exceptional artists.
Okay maybe this is more like my 2 bucks than my 2 cents but there you have it.
PS: Writing that felt quite therapeutic. Thx for the outlet.
From what ive read and not read, theres quite a large debate about the importance in place and choice. This debate is actually Very relevent to me as ive self taught myself from the start, i have traditional art A-levels and im off to hope university for creative computing which is a mix of programming and modeling geared more to the games industry. I chose the place for the size, it anit the biggest or greatest uni around liverpool but all the students know there teachers properly. The class sizes are about 20 while some others are 50+ so i thought im more likly to get the qualifications is the group size is lowered and can get any help if i need it. The course itself is amazing covers everything i need/want but the computers arent as pretty as they should be so i invested in a monster pc rig to cover anything. I have had second thoughts though, walking out 20k in dept is not a all so appealing possibility, even if the employment rate is 92% ill most likly work like a dog for next to nothing in the current climate.
What im getting at is, am i right to choose a course in university? or should i have stuck with self teaching,avoid the dept and hope for the best? I know a degree is nothing next to your portfolio but ive read that it can push just that little higher up the food chain or at least the guy without them is moe likly to get sacked.
-sorry about anybad spelling, grammer and general wording's im knacked and about to get back to work. i hate late shfts...
Yes. All kinds of agreement from here. Especially bad are the teachers who just want to clock in 8 hours and get paid. Works at McDonalds but methinks educators should be held to a higher standard.
Yes. That is so true. Who gives a shit about the people who just won't work, that's their own problem. But it doesn't mean the rest of us weren't/aren't getting shafted. Also in agreement with the big post from before, but too much text here already.
Now my 2 cents:
Just throwing in my experience at school. By no means should this be taken as a description of the situation at most schools. I've only gone to the one and it's the only one I am even remotely qualified to talk about.
As an intro I'd like to quote one of my teachers who said something that makes a lot of sense: "I think it's important to remember that it's very difficult for a student to judge the merits of a program they are currently taking [or are planning to take] because a student simply does not possess enough experience to make a realistic assessment of what they need to know to be successful in any industry". As valuable as research may be, you can still make the wrong choice after all because all you do is from your own understanding, unless you are lucky enough to know an established professional who can help you. If your understanding is flawed, so are the results of your research. And corrupt and dishonest institutions will try their very best to muddy the waters.
<rant>
Just graduated near the top of my class from an intensive (1 year) program over at Interdec College over here in MTL. And whoo boy was that ever a bad experience.
Let's leave out the teachers being inexperienced, the best teachers I had there was teaching for the first time in their life and they did a great job. However, I had one teacher who could barely speak English or French (he was fired the semester after he taught us.), at one point the school owned less 3ds max licenses than the total number of students so it was impossible for the entire class to participate. I even taught a Zbrush class as the 1st (and only) assignment from our Zbrush teacher, I should note that the dude never actually taught a class, it was all workshops and students walking other students through tutorials they didn't understand (that includes mine). But the topper is that I was actually told to "F*ck off, you lazy idiot" by a teacher for asking him a question outside of class hours (and this wasn't just me, he said that to quite a few ppl in my class). Same teacher also told me "Your work is fine, I just gave you a bad grade because you're a lazy f*ck." when I asked him what I could improve in my project. Administration brushed me off when I brought it up. Several times.
As I mentioned before I graduated near the top of my class, 100% in a few classes. Take a look at my portfolio. Is that enough to get a job? HELL NO! Then why didn't I fail? Seems logical, the objective of the program was to "create a professional portfolio demonstrating the skills necessary to succeed in the industry". ONE dude out of the 20 of us did this. Is this because 19 of us were lazy pricks unwilling to put in the effort? I don't know, that may be true for a few out of those 19 but for most of us it wasn't the same. I clearly remember a point where I went: "Screw this, I doesn't matter what I do, they'll tell me it's good even if it sucks." so I started posting things at CGSociety and ppl laughed at me (and they were justified). Through their (sometimes harsh) criticism I began to get a clearer picture of what the industry standards were and what I needed to learn which I had not received from school. (I.E: At that point I thought roadkill was the standard way to unwrap as none of our teachers seemed to know about the UV Unwrap modifier in max until my animation teacher in semester 2!) When I brought these concerns to the teachers and administration I was brushed off and belittled (excepting the one teacher).
That shit just ain't right, no matter which way you slice it. Maybe there was more I could have done outside of class. I'm trying to do it now. But for me that year was my love for game art being assaulted from all sides. It's all black and blue now, with many sore spots, but it's slowly starting to heal as I get further and further away from that school. All the online resources have been a tremendous help, as has switching from max to blender and from photoshop to GIMP. Going through basic interface tutorials calmed me down and brought back some of the magic I thought was gone forever.
</rant>
In conclusion, I would say that it may not be appropriate to condemn for profit schools wholesale, but people should still speak up when they get a really crappy experience. If it can save one person's passion from being trampled underfoot until it is completely lifeless, it's good enough for me. Who knows, that dude in my class who gave up might have grown to be a top notch artist with the right support (god knows he could draw like the mother-beast and he could model pretty good for a 1st semester student, he just wasn't that good with file names and extensions, rendering and other techie stuff, but no-one was there for him and he though he just wasn't good enough). Not everyone has the ability to push forward no matter what's going on around them, that doesn't mean they'll never be exceptional artists.
Okay maybe this is more like my 2 bucks than my 2 cents but there you have it.
PS: Writing that felt quite therapeutic. Thx for the outlet.
"... "I think it's important to remember that it's very difficult for a student to judge the merits of a program they are currently taking [or are planning to take] because a student simply does not possess enough experience to make a realistic assessment of what they need to know to be successful in any industry". As valuable as research may be, you can still make the wrong choice after all because all you do is from your own understanding, unless you are lucky enough to know an established professional who can help you. If your understanding is flawed, so are the results of your research. And corrupt and dishonest institutions will try their very best to muddy the waters."
Perhaps game studios could look into intern/schooling :P
I'm sure there's a side business for that... and the students will, regardless of their capacities, get an idea of what the real expectations are.
Seems like a win win for everyone. Studios get to look at prospective newcomers, train them a bit in the techniques they need them to know, and possibly hire them later.
Students actually learn something.
A good basis for expanding the industry and talent pool.
I believe Blizzard, and Pixar do this... and they seem a bit ahead of the curve here.
Perhaps game studios could look into intern/schooling :P
I'm sure there's a side business for that... and the students will, regardless of their capacities, get an idea of what the real expectations are.
Seems like a win win for everyone. Studios get to look at prospective newcomers, train them a bit in the techniques they need them to know, and possibly hire them later.
Students actually learn something.
A good basis for expanding the industry and talent pool.
I believe Blizzard, and Pixar do this... and they seem a bit ahead of the curve here.
But if you look at it from a business point of view, they have to train another employee to their pipeline and get them up to speed with everything they need (ie computer machine, licenses etc etc) Sounds like it would be more hassle which is why big companies usually offer internships while smaller companies I think tend to avoid interns.
HAHAHAHAHAHA ooooh dear, this lil old topic. *breathes in*
while I agree with the concept of "if a student really wants this they should research it" i think some teachers just simply DO NOT GIVE A DAMN(from personal experience at TWO universities). they know the core basics a student should know but they dont teach us. I didnt learn to UV Unwrap from my teachers, i was lucky enough to find like 5 odd tutorials and learn to do it IN MY THIRD YEAR and piece the proces together. i think stuff like UV unwrapping should be taught ASAP.
from personal experience ALL my teachers give us a topic and say go and do it. like my first character model. the teacher gave us a male pic from the-blueprint then he dissapeared. didnt even bother to teach us about the basic character modelling basics an stuff like how to make a hand and head and stuff. HE JUST RAN OFF. but thanks to Youtube i found some cool tutorials.
then you get the teachers that demotivate and demoralise students. eg:when i made my first Unreal level my teacher said "delete it and start again" and this was a week before the due date. my level wasnt even that bad NOT TO MENTION the woman hadnt taught us about mood boards/block outs/grey boxing. Then you have teachers that are just have their heads up their back sides and are just down right bitter. its my love and passion thats helped me carry on
so basically all I do is go in once in a while, get the assignment then i dont go in and i hop onto polycount/cgsociety/youtube/google. i feel sooooooo sorry for some of my classmates because forums have taught me looooooooooads of stuff, some of which has take me like 2 years to get and they dont have a clue what the things are eg:normal/spec/displacement maps/shaders/UDK. ive decided not to go to my graduation because i have essentially taught myself and ive been put through loads of shit
i think alot of schools need to scrap some dumb modules and get students modelling allll the damn time and they should tell them about forums. then you have the media teachers that know waay less than you
NOW im gonna have to fork out a couple hundred quid to pay for some 3DS Max lessons and DVDs
Replies
http://chicagobreakingbusiness.com/2010/08/new-loan-standards-hit-for-profit-college-stocks.html
How many times do we see people who want to do 'game art'? Their definition of 'game art' is actually (character) concept art. They are oblivious to the fact that they will not enter the market as the person who designs the main characters for a game. At the course, 90% of the artists did not stick any more attention into different art production tasks (such as modeling, texturing, animation, etc, etc), because they wanted to be an 'ARTIST'.
The people who have been badmouthing these educations are usually 'artists' of this type. There were some guys that would draw every second they were breathing and they were able to get into the game business as concept artists, but for the rest of them, it wouldn't have hurt if they had picked up some production skills, such as modeling, texturing or animation, to help them in their quest for a job in the game industry.
If you're going to say that you could have taught yourself all the stuff that you should have learned at the school, then why didn't they feel inspired to do so during the course? The course probably put them in front of some kind of art production program, yet they never tried to go beyond what they were taught at the school? Give me a break.
Another point is that art production at a decent level requires either talent or lots of experience or some combination of both. During the course, at least you have plenty of time to gain experience.
The pieces that the girl which was on Kotaku showed in her Youtube video were not game related, of which she reminds the viewer explicitly. Why did it never occur to her that she should try to make something game related instead? Why didn't she try to make a level for UT or something similar? Is it that hard to deduct what kind of stuff a gaming company would like to see in your portfolio? Did the school forbid her to make stuff that actually loads up in a game? This girl actually had a model of a female character which shows potential and she probably could have gotten to a level decent enough to land a job if she had kept at it.
If your going to pay plenty for an education, the least you could do is demand a certain level of quality during the course and not cry afterward. You should at least have a goal for the level you would like to attain, when you enter. If you enter wanting to be as good as the Blizzard/Pixar/Disney/Epic/Bungie/whatever art guys, you would probably do more than what a school gives you for homework to get there. Alas, your heroes are not working at the school you are attending, so it's up to you to improve. The school might teach you how to use the tools, but it won't magically grant you art hero status when you graduate.
That is the point of an education,ideally you should learn about the different roles and techniques associated with the development process. My Art Insitute told me my abilities would be applicable towards game development, but aside from basic interface nothing of particular focus was taught. I was 18,i knew a wanted to make games for a living but didnt know what exactly i needed to learn to do so and i wrongly assumed the AI would do that. I imagine there are alot of young kids who are "oblivious" to that as well and whats wrong with that? you go to school to learn.
My education if can call it that consisted of courses that did not apply to game development,1 year of a two year course was entirely devoted to subjects like math,psychology and social studies. The fine art courses were useful but then it left 30% of a two year course actually devoted to learning 3d .
again where will you pick up any of these concepts if your school does not even cover them in a course devoted to game development with no actual faculty who have had experience in this. Your basically calling people lazy because they did not learn about techniques they have no idea about.These schools should cover these topics to give the students at least something to begin with.
With two months left to go i was beginning to finally figure out that there was no way i was going to be hireable when i finished school,alot of students as well as myself had a good grasp of the fact that our school did not fulfill their promise of a quality education. Students finally started to figure out where to look for the proper techniques to get a job in game development after they had a grasp of what it was to work in 3d.
Its easy to blame these "artist" for not knowing any better but this off course is where these schools fail,granted there were lazy students who didnt take these classes seriously but there were also many who were hungry for information but did not know where to find it,i found about polycount through word of mouth a month or so prior to graduation and after that is when i fully grasped how much of a ripp off my school was.
In order to get the students support in their chosen speciality, you'd pretty much need specialists in every area of the pipeline.
I'm obviously against fail promises and school fees that are far in excess of (junior) earning potential, but even in a hypothetical situation where a school wanted to create a good game design course, there are just so many considerations and so many specialists you might need to hire, that the fees might need to be high anyway.
Or am I over-complicating things? :P
I was going by the impression the lady who was on Kotaku gave me: The models she made in her classes show that she has learned the basics, but I don't think she showed any models she made outside of school assignments. That, to me, is an indication of a certain laziness. During your job interview, the company will surely ask you for work you made outside of school assignments, to check how creative you are. If you really want to be an artist, you should at least be able to show enough work to convince them of your motivation and passion. Especially for those who want to work 2D, they should be drawing a lot already.
I do agree that most of these schools reel in oblivious teens and then rip them off. That said, I also don't think that the time span of these courses nets you enough experience to land a job in the industry easily. Especially with game art production, experience is something that is very important. You need to be able to output quality work at a decent pace. When you lack both quality and speed, then your chances at landing a job are slim to none. Speed is something you can improve on just by practicing a lot.
Actually, I think this is an excellent point. Game design has become so intricate, and the subject is incredibly varied by nature. The number of disciplines that it encompases is immense. A school that focuses on just game art can't legitimately claim to be a game design school. Art, literature, programming, mathematics, history, architecture, interior design, theatre... the list goes on and on. All of these elements are useful and desireable when producing a game.
This is a large reason for why I always encourage prospective game developers to go to traditional liberal-arts colleges. (instead of specialized game schools) With the cirriculums at lib-arts universities, students are exposed to a broad range of educational subjects. They can specialize in their major of choice, but they are required to at least get a taste of all these other influences. Some might view them as a distraction. I feel that these are necessary for a well-rounded game designer.
You have to ask yourself if you want to be crafted as a cog for a machine. Specialized game schools are designed to target a very narrow focus. Although it can be argued that this is an efficient way to prepare for a job in the current industry, I question whether it is best for game design.
haha
What a shame she has to be the postergirl for this issue,i agree with you that she seems to be someone who smacks of laziness. We had our fair share of those as well. But then there are those who genuinely want to make it so bad and they are the ones who really get screwed over majorly in the process
I'm being serious:poly124:, it probably isnt economically viable, because its all paid up front. But for something like a three year course it should only be paid a year ahead. With the prices of the these they are way beyond cost anyway. I dont know, I havent really thought it through.
Also realistically anybody can learn anything, if persons dont learn something then it is the fault of the school(unless the students are lazy good for nothings, which in that case, for theirs and everyone elses benefit, they should be got rid of, turned into food soylent green type).
I dont really see how you can have for profit schools, learning is for the benefit of the students, (its mostly altruistic, the effort put in is always greater than what you get out), for profits garantees the students will be stiffed.
http://wiki.polycount.com/CategoryGameIndustry#Education
Now for the most part i would say MY education was beneficial but for a couple reasons only.
1. half of my teachers (in my major, not the gen-ed teachers) are actually former students of the college who had to basically teach themselves because their teachers did not know what they were talking about well enough. These guys then began teaching and taught me. So i learned from all their experience and problems they overcame.
2. other half of my teachers have spent time in the industry in one form or another.
3. i have a massive drive to learn and do stuff on my own. Ive been watching eat3d, gnomen, and anything else that i could get my hands on since almost first term. I have almost 70-80 gigs of tutorial videos, and more bookmarked online. I've been doing personal projects outside of school and working on them actually more than my school projects. i even "taught" several of my classes to students who wanted to know how to really do something rather than just following blindly.
4. We actually have an unusual curriculum. we take classes in textures, modeling, animation, UDK (yah we actually have an entire class devoted to UDK), character design, flash, game design process, story boarding, and even a portfolio class. Now the classes themselves present opportunities for learning but again its like anything else u get out of it what u put in.
so with talented teachers and a strong drive i was able to get alot out of school. However, at the same time this only reflects me. so i would say i was in the right place at the right time to receive the education that i did. ive seen many people graduate before and after me that have virtually no skills whats so ever, but they are the people who did what was expected of them in class and did no outside work themselves.
so in summary, would i recommend school? TBH despite my good experience i would say probably not, though having a degree behind your name is nice for many reasons. Most of these schools are ALOT of money to spend for only a couple of good teachers. Beyond that, there is only so much that u can learn from a traditional school environment, alot of what u need to learn, u just need to do yourself. I would say a good community college and alot of practice and self discipline is probably the way to go, unless u can find that right place right time kinda situation, but even then i just don't thing the cost is really worth it.
...and on one final note, Adam i totally understand with the don't use school work for portfolio's. I had several teachers who kept telling me "Do your best! try to get one portfolio piece from every class u take" when i brought up that having a sphere with a couple squares coming out of it with a 3pt light setup wasn't suitable for a portfolio piece u should have seen the uproar i caused. so many students are having this drilled into their heads, when instead they should be using the knowledge they have gained to make other things on their own for their portfolio's.
( sorry for the long winded post :P )
an interesting read:
http://crosscut.com/2010/08/20/education/20074/The-scandal-of-$50,000-culinary--degrees--/
I am a student from Alaska, and I spent months researching the pros and cons of pretty much every school in North America, eventually deciding on a year-long intensive training center in Vancouver, B.C. The school's name is Think tank Training Centre, and I ended up choosing it because:
All teachers are current industry professionals (lighting instructor is lead VFX at CIS, maya instructor is rigging artist at EA games, acting instructor is retired Disney animator, ect)
Class size is small (12 students accepted every semester means more personal time w/ instructors)
3rd semester is devoted to demo reels only, and every student is assigned a personal professional mentor to work with (I might get the lead lighting director of propaganda games! so excited!)
No bullshit classes! This school doesn't give a shit about art history or English classes. If it won't help with getting a job, then it will not be taught.
No computer sharing! Everyone get own personal computer to use
If you don't land a job right out of school, you can stay at Think Tank and keep working on demo reel as long as you want, using school facilities and any/all software and resources.
And best of all, since it is a smaller facility and a shorter program, it is only 30 grand for an entire year (and we learn just as well (if not better) as a bigger school like VFS)
I guess the point I am trying to make is that people should RESEARCH THEIR BRAINS OUT before choosing to go to a school to learn about 3d/gaming/animating/whatever. Read crap-tons of reviews, pros/cons, and compare prices and lengths, and google stalk and contact current students and alumni. I did, and I am SO happy I went to the lengths to find the perfect school to become the best modeler/texture artist possible.
A lot of schools out there SUCK or the most part (I've seen some stuff from AI, some universities that people are making in their second years that my class was able to make after a month or two of learning).
Don't support mediocre schools or programs!
"game design" is such a broad field that students with no professional experience could not possible get jobs. The programs touch on many aspects of the game industry in a generalist way with no real specializations in anything, which is a sure recipe for joblessness.
Like for me, I am so happy I found a school that has half a year of a generalist approach, then another half of focusing on a specialization. Specialization is a much safer route for students.
We need a decent article on Gamasutra also.
I wrote an article on my college experience and some of my criticism of for profit schools. I waiting for approval by the editor.
[link]
Hardly surprising - Gamasutra is owned by UBM (United Business Media) who also publish the Game Career Guide site which receives significant sponsorship funding from the Art Institutes, among other 'media partners'.
I agree with no bullshit classes but art history course, I would recommend that to anyone. Great way to draw inspiration from and you learn from the masters to.
:thumbup:
Yes. All kinds of agreement from here. Especially bad are the teachers who just want to clock in 8 hours and get paid. Works at McDonalds but methinks educators should be held to a higher standard.
Yes. That is so true. Who gives a shit about the people who just won't work, that's their own problem. But it doesn't mean the rest of us weren't/aren't getting shafted. Also in agreement with the big post from before, but too much text here already.
Now my 2 cents:
Just throwing in my experience at school. By no means should this be taken as a description of the situation at most schools. I've only gone to the one and it's the only one I am even remotely qualified to talk about.
<rant>
Just graduated near the top of my class from an intensive (1 year) program over at Interdec College over here in MTL. And whoo boy was that ever a bad experience.
Let's leave out the teachers being inexperienced, the best teachers I had there was teaching for the first time in their life and they did a great job. However, I had one teacher who could barely speak English or French (he was fired the semester after he taught us.), at one point the school owned less 3ds max licenses than the total number of students so it was impossible for the entire class to participate. I even taught a Zbrush class as the 1st (and only) assignment from our Zbrush teacher, I should note that the dude never actually taught a class, it was all workshops and students walking other students through tutorials they didn't understand (that includes mine). But the topper is that I was actually told to "F*ck off, you lazy idiot" by a teacher for asking him a question outside of class hours (and this wasn't just me, he said that to quite a few ppl in my class). Same teacher also told me "Your work is fine, I just gave you a bad grade because you're a lazy f*ck." when I asked him what I could improve in my project. Administration brushed me off when I brought it up. Several times.
As I mentioned before I graduated near the top of my class, 100% in a few classes. Take a look at my portfolio. Is that enough to get a job? HELL NO! Then why didn't I fail? Seems logical, the objective of the program was to "create a professional portfolio demonstrating the skills necessary to succeed in the industry". ONE dude out of the 20 of us did this. Is this because 19 of us were lazy pricks unwilling to put in the effort? I don't know, that may be true for a few out of those 19 but for most of us it wasn't the same. I clearly remember a point where I went: "Screw this, I doesn't matter what I do, they'll tell me it's good even if it sucks." so I started posting things at CGSociety and ppl laughed at me (and they were justified). Through their (sometimes harsh) criticism I began to get a clearer picture of what the industry standards were and what I needed to learn which I had not received from school. (I.E: At that point I thought roadkill was the standard way to unwrap as none of our teachers seemed to know about the UV Unwrap modifier in max until my animation teacher in semester 2!) When I brought these concerns to the teachers and administration I was brushed off and belittled (excepting the one teacher).
That shit just ain't right, no matter which way you slice it. Maybe there was more I could have done outside of class. I'm trying to do it now. But for me that year was my love for game art being assaulted from all sides. It's all black and blue now, with many sore spots, but it's slowly starting to heal as I get further and further away from that school. All the online resources have been a tremendous help, as has switching from max to blender and from photoshop to GIMP. Going through basic interface tutorials calmed me down and brought back some of the magic I thought was gone forever.
</rant>
In conclusion, I would say that it may not be appropriate to condemn for profit schools wholesale, but people should still speak up when they get a really crappy experience. If it can save one person's passion from being trampled underfoot until it is completely lifeless, it's good enough for me. Who knows, that dude in my class who gave up might have grown to be a top notch artist with the right support (god knows he could draw like the mother-beast and he could model pretty good for a 1st semester student, he just wasn't that good with file names and extensions, rendering and other techie stuff, but no-one was there for him and he though he just wasn't good enough). Not everyone has the ability to push forward no matter what's going on around them, that doesn't mean they'll never be exceptional artists.
Okay maybe this is more like my 2 bucks than my 2 cents but there you have it.
PS: Writing that felt quite therapeutic. Thx for the outlet.
What im getting at is, am i right to choose a course in university? or should i have stuck with self teaching,avoid the dept and hope for the best? I know a degree is nothing next to your portfolio but ive read that it can push just that little higher up the food chain or at least the guy without them is moe likly to get sacked.
-sorry about anybad spelling, grammer and general wording's im knacked and about to get back to work. i hate late shfts...
"... "I think it's important to remember that it's very difficult for a student to judge the merits of a program they are currently taking [or are planning to take] because a student simply does not possess enough experience to make a realistic assessment of what they need to know to be successful in any industry". As valuable as research may be, you can still make the wrong choice after all because all you do is from your own understanding, unless you are lucky enough to know an established professional who can help you. If your understanding is flawed, so are the results of your research. And corrupt and dishonest institutions will try their very best to muddy the waters."
Ditto
I'm sure there's a side business for that... and the students will, regardless of their capacities, get an idea of what the real expectations are.
Seems like a win win for everyone. Studios get to look at prospective newcomers, train them a bit in the techniques they need them to know, and possibly hire them later.
Students actually learn something.
A good basis for expanding the industry and talent pool.
I believe Blizzard, and Pixar do this... and they seem a bit ahead of the curve here.
But if you look at it from a business point of view, they have to train another employee to their pipeline and get them up to speed with everything they need (ie computer machine, licenses etc etc) Sounds like it would be more hassle which is why big companies usually offer internships while smaller companies I think tend to avoid interns.
while I agree with the concept of "if a student really wants this they should research it" i think some teachers just simply DO NOT GIVE A DAMN(from personal experience at TWO universities). they know the core basics a student should know but they dont teach us. I didnt learn to UV Unwrap from my teachers, i was lucky enough to find like 5 odd tutorials and learn to do it IN MY THIRD YEAR and piece the proces together. i think stuff like UV unwrapping should be taught ASAP.
from personal experience ALL my teachers give us a topic and say go and do it. like my first character model. the teacher gave us a male pic from the-blueprint then he dissapeared. didnt even bother to teach us about the basic character modelling basics an stuff like how to make a hand and head and stuff. HE JUST RAN OFF. but thanks to Youtube i found some cool tutorials.
then you get the teachers that demotivate and demoralise students. eg:when i made my first Unreal level my teacher said "delete it and start again" and this was a week before the due date. my level wasnt even that bad NOT TO MENTION the woman hadnt taught us about mood boards/block outs/grey boxing. Then you have teachers that are just have their heads up their back sides and are just down right bitter. its my love and passion thats helped me carry on
so basically all I do is go in once in a while, get the assignment then i dont go in and i hop onto polycount/cgsociety/youtube/google. i feel sooooooo sorry for some of my classmates because forums have taught me looooooooooads of stuff, some of which has take me like 2 years to get and they dont have a clue what the things are eg:normal/spec/displacement maps/shaders/UDK. ive decided not to go to my graduation because i have essentially taught myself and ive been put through loads of shit
i think alot of schools need to scrap some dumb modules and get students modelling allll the damn time and they should tell them about forums. then you have the media teachers that know waay less than you
NOW im gonna have to fork out a couple hundred quid to pay for some 3DS Max lessons and DVDs
grrrrrrrrrrrrr