dont you guys have something like government employment insurance down in the states where they pay you 40% or so of your original salary for a set amount of time while you look for work?
Up here in Canada with EI I know people who have been laid off and coast for almost a year on the government's money, not saying this is right but it can really help those in need.
dont you guys have something like government employment insurance down in the states where they pay you 40% or so of your original salary for a set amount of time while you look for work?
Up here in Canada with EI I know people who have been laid off and coast for almost a year on the government's money, not saying this is right but it can really help those in need.
it is a lot more difficult to obtain now with as many who lost jobs during the recession, the government has put a lot more restrictions on it. can't give you exact figures, but both my parents lost their jobs after about 30 years of working, about 10 years to retirement too. they will pay for you to go back to school, but try doing that when your 50 and still find time for a part time job to pay the bills. my dad eventually found a new job, but my mom lost her unemployment benefits, cap that with insurance nightmares and backdating... it's a mess.
letting go 40 full-timers is total bullshit. If these companies think they are doing it like the movies, maybe devs really do need to get a union together and FUCK THEM like the Hollywood unions do. Oh, I bet they would love paying overtime.
Freelance on the side? Reduce quality of life? Live below your means?
What if you plan for 6mo and it takes 9 or a year?
What if you decided not to live in abject poverty with 7 other neck beards who can't wash a dish to save their life?
How cool is going to be when you move back in with those guys and they drink all your beer, eat all your food and puke on your couch?
How is it going to feel knowing you've done everything you can to change it but your stuck there for the foreseeable future?
How's it going to feel when your standing out in the rain waiting for the bus, because you sold your car that you worked hard to pay off?
How is it going to feel taking a job making less than what you where, knowing it will take years to get back to what you where making let alone get back the things you lost along the way.
How is it going to feel when you get lied to again and that full time job turns out to be a seasonal job and you have to take another step down past the step you already took?
It won't sting to be part of a team, then suddenly be ripped out? You're going to like that and be cool with it?
How many steps down can you actually take before you stop saying "ahh but this is building great character"?
How about you don't lose your job but you get sick, as in cancer or you eat some contaminated lettuce and wrack up a huge medical bill, can't work and get laid off because it doesn't look like you'll be going back any time soon?
What if you find out you have some crazy disease that requires you to buy expensive meds?
What if you get in an accident, its your fault and you get sued?
Hows it going to feel when you're 60 and you're living worse off then when you did in your college days?
When you've been scratching around for 40+ years never getting anywhere always getting knocked down? Knowing you'll work until you drop and never be able to get a break?
Hows it going to feel when you tell your kid you have no idea how you're going to pay for their college because you've been forced to use their college fund to pay the bills and feed everyone?
I've never been laid off but I've seen enough people go through it that things can always get worse than your worst case scenario plans.
Talk to some retirees who worked hard, saved their entire life and now are back looking for any kind of work they can find because their retirement evaporated. How is it going to feel when you know, you will never be able to get back what you lost?
It doesn't take much to make me happy, I could easily be happy with a lot less, that doesn't mean I won't miss the things I've worked hard to get.
I make good money and don't have any problems doing the things I like. I'm a pretty frugal guy in some ways and I save and I plan for those times. I pick employers who aren't flakey, pay well and treat their employees with respect. I have fat I can trim from my monthly budget, and still I worry about if that time comes and I can't trim anymore. Then I think about what will it take to get it all back and keep moving onward and upward?
I guess I just subscribe to the philosophy that one controls one's own life, regardless of whether or not certain things such as layoffs occur. It's something that actually attracts me to this industry: I am forced to take responsibility for my own well being instead of trying to find a job that will take care of me with full benefits and retirement packages. To each his own, though.
There are things that are outside of your control. The world makes sure to impress this upon you once you get out there. If you're lucky you get to learn by watching it happen to other people.
Honestly you sound like a pretty young guy just starting out. You probably view kids and wife as a boat anchor and just want to drift around and be free. I've done that, I had my fun its time to settle down and have a few kind of fun. What I'm getting at is that you can make it work for one stage of your life but that same planning might not work for every stage. It would be great if the industry could actually be a career instead of that fun time when you where totally broke and sleeping in a box.
@Vig - So after that heart wrenching monologue what do you advise, how can we escape the fate that's beyond our control??
How can the humble game artist evade such hardships???
I suggest we all shack up with the nearest Million.....no Billionaire we can find.... first dibs on Bill Gates
I think you're onto something there
Know that none of that crap has ever happened to me, I'm extremely lucky and lead a very cushy life, I'm very thankful for it too. That's all crap I can think of when I think "what if". In most cases I've thought about how I would handle most of those situations but you never really know how you'll be able to deal with it until it happens. It doesn't do you any good to obsess about it but it doesn't hurt to think about it before it happens.
Plan for the worst, enjoy the good times and deal with the crazy shit the best you can when you have to and don't dwell on it. If you're going to dwell on anything dwell on the happy stuff.
Know that one thing will knock you down that you will never get up from. If you're still around to ask "was that it?" It wasn't. Pick your ass up and keep moving forward. =P
All valid points, but don't pretend to know me or who I am. I am in fact the opposite of who you think I am. Just because I maintain a view on life and "careers" that you don't doesn't mean you know who I am. I'm married with kids coming, and I know plenty of people who share my views who have 3 kids and a mortgage. It doesn't matter: planning, saving, and creative thinking can turn a situation like this into new opportunities. The stuff you can't control, you can't control so you deal with it when it comes up, but there are many many more things that you CAN control that people refuse to control (such as saving money. Anyone can save money).
Sure, it'll feel bad for a second when I'm waiting for the bus because I had to sell my car, but then I'll get on the bus and it'll be a new experience in life and I'll get to interact with strange new people and you know what, not having a car isn't bad because life goes on and I'm still me. I couldn't care less what happens to the STUFF I had because I'm not in this business to get STUFF. I would go muscle through some other, boring program and get a job doing something MUCH more lucrative if that was my goal.
You're forgetting that I said and will say again that none of this changes the fact that getting fired sucks and hurts and all that. Then again, how many of us have either been fired or seen someone we work with get fired? You said that yourself. It's not surprising. It isn't unheard of. Far from it. I know a lot of people who were inbetweeners or animators when all the studios closed down in the late 90's. Some of them made it through it, some didn't. The ones I know who did have the same outlook on this as I do. I'm going to go with them on this kind of stuff. It can be prepared for and the blow lessened with wise living. Pure and simple. If a union is formed, I'll be first in line to buy in, but in the meantime, this is the industry we want to be in, so yeah, I'll come out and say deal with it.
Frankly, I don't want a career. I want to create and be responsible for my own future. If I end up 60 without any money, it'll be my fault and I'll deal with it. Just my personal philosophy.
Anyway, I'm sure people are sick of me, so carry on with your headshaking.
I would link to videos of flying men, donkey women, horribly jittering animation, and lots of other hilarity, too lazy though. Never said it wasn't a good game :P Just riddle with bugs.
I've worked in QA for a while and I can safely say that these bugs were all certainly found by QA, it was just deemed not safe/time effective to fix them or that they were likely hard to reproduce. Getting laid off blows, I hope everyone lands on their feet. I've been unemployed for over a year now, its not fun times:(
A little adversity never hurt anyone, a lot of adversity crushes. You seem to have the same response to both? It's always easier to say you would smile through adversity than to actually do it, especially when you haven't experience much of it.
You're right I don't know you, and I probably won't be around if adversity comes knocking again and again and again (hopefully it wont). I won't see how you handle it, especially if its the kind that never lets up. It seems like you're prepared to handle the short term, "well that week sucked" type of adversity but not the other?
You have to know that its not easy finding work and it can be a really dark time for even the most optimistic of people. Hearing its your fault you failed to plan probably doesn't make it any brighter. Even if you plan you can still easily be screwed and sideswiped. It has to suck being hired under the guise of full time permanent employment and then being treated like a temp not because the company took a down turn but because it makes the boom that much sweeter.
To add insult to injury a fellow comrade shows up with a tough shit attitude and tells everyone it will be ok if they just "plan better", if things aren't ok then its that persons fault for failing to plan better.
Seems pretty callus for a thread that probably could use a little more sympathy.
Vig you are right. Anyone can talk trash and shit on people's emotions until it happens to them. It sucks, pure and simple. I have seen the rounds and I know that good and bad are sent out the door. It's hard to quantify the quality of a person when the project is pulled out from under the company. At that point it's just survival. For every other time it's just a planned mishap or an unplanned mishap but it's gonna happen and people will get let go and they will be miserable for it.
I'd be all for unions but games take way too long for that to be very practical. Sure, movies cost a lot but most production wraps up in less than a year. Compare that to a game that nowadays can take anywhere from 2-5 years with a 4 week sales window and you can see how investing in a movie with a better, faster ROI can support a union with workers that are off a job for less than 2 mos. Even failed movies can recoup costs in DVD and distribution. What do we have going on for us? Four weeks, tops. You can't really plan a viable union strategy with that sort of business model.
I've yet to see any company [barring the obvious exceptions] that actually plan ahead, you know like, past the first title. Most places are glad they even managed to ship that shit out the door with the game usually being overcosted, undertested and without any post strategy going on beyond DLC. So yeah, you are bound to get layoffs.
And as for staggering projects? I mean, it's a good method to mitigate risks but the company as a whole must plan for the long term, and not just technology development either. It really is a pain to rework tech to cater to a new game title with its own look and play style. That's a lot of time spent reinventing the wheel and figuring shit out over again. Some of those things are unavoidable but they can certainly be minimized. Take long standing franchises like CoD which has only gotten better and builds on new tech, assets AND game play. Same goes with Halo and Bungie and how those games are developed. Sure, fans and 'creative devs' can argue about the credibility of a franchise making clones and rehashes, but honestly, if it pays well and the company can actually afford to do good for its employees AND make quality games, then I am all for it.
All the other companies, where most devs fall under, will go about taking bids and starting projects from scratch, hoping to strike it rich and continue on with the series. If it does great then good for you. If it fails you are screwed. If it does ok then you are screwed. If it does great and it took too long/costed too much then you are screwed. In almost all scenarios the people with no stake in the company are screwed and thats a lot of people. Back to square one.
On the topic of unions, they have major drawbacks too. If you're in a union you have to do what the union tells you to, even if you disagree with them, else they wont support you when you need them to. Then theirs the problem of virtually un-fireable workers that can arise (look at the US public school system). They also have a tendancy of wanting to drive up employee salaries, which in an industry like ours means more outsourcing would occur, and I think that's the last thing alot of people want.
Yes, unions suck shit and would be bad for the industry, but that is the only recourse workers have if companies have decided it's okay to fuck people like this.
well Ninjas there are good and bad unions, so its daft saying they are all shit.
Protection of basic rights is something that was hard fought for over hundreds of years and the newer tech industries just shit all over that.
Games seems like a pretty mercenary environment to work in and its infuriating when this kind of thing happens.
I rembember being laid off at Blitz and man was the atmosphere cold when then told us. Its like we suddenly became lepers and they could n't get us out the door fast enough.
Hope everyone affected finds something soon
In most other industries layoffs are a sign of things gone terribly wrong...In our industry its just another aspect of companies business model...that speaks volumes right there. And for those who think unions are sooooooo terrible, I say dont hold your breath for the corporate big wigs to suddenly grow a consciene and change the industry culture, it aint gonna happen. This is exactly why I am getting my MBA, so i can start my own studio and be my own boss, treats staff like real humans and hopefully make games that I am proud of.
I hate hearing about studios laying people off it's really sad.
I've been through this personally last Sept. with other friends and colleagues such as member Jesse Moody. Initially I wasn't surprised that layoffs happened but was pretty shocked at alot of the people that were picked. Some core members to certain projects and Professionals with years of experience over some more obvious choices and interns.
I was angry but at the same time it was like a burden had been lifted. At first I didn't think it would be too hard to find a new job at another studio. But then the industry started getting really ugly and more studios began laying more people off and not taking chances hiring new people even if you have years of experience and a solid portfolio.
So now it's getting closer to my 1 year reunion of being laid off and I've been continuing to work on my portfolio and started learning Zbrush, while still sending out the resume hoping for some luck and interest. Now it's like I have good days and bad days. There is a battle with depression and selfdoubt when being laid off, But I gotta just keep plugging away because I love artwork and videogame creation.
So yeah I can relate to others out there going through the same ordeal. To steal a quote from the movie "The Road"-
"We're the good guys and we are carrying the fire!"
Try to keep your chin up and hopefully a better opportunity will arise from the ugly scenario.
Besides, similar statistics show that after some time has passed, the majority of people who experience a layoff report that they considered it the catalyst that sparked a great improvement in their situation. People who get laid off turn out better off down the line because humanity functions in adversity.
This is why we have the bill in Congress to continue unemployment payments BECAUSE people cannot find jobs.
As per making better. Its a circle. Making better, making worse, making better, making worse. In short. We have to look at the now for peoples situation. Not what may or may not happen for them down the line.
Yeah, and even when you do eventually bounce back, the stress will still eat at you, no matter how cool you can be about it.
You can learn how to handle a certain amount of stress, but having the knowledge that you can lose your job any day will make your body say stop before your own mind does.
I feel that my skills and general work quality has improved after every great company downfall and the next job, but the stress never goes away.
I would link to videos of flying men, donkey women, horribly jittering animation, and lots of other hilarity, too lazy though. Never said it wasn't a good game :P Just riddle with bugs.
Ha ha.
Seriously, make me wonder. In some games it's GLARINGLY obvious.
I hate the "suck it up, deal with it" crowd that comes out whenever news like this pops up. The stress of losing your job has been ranked just below the death of a loved one and there are studies showing negative health impacts due to the stress of being laid off.
If i could thanl you on these forums Justin i would,that shit pisses me off as well.
Replies
Up here in Canada with EI I know people who have been laid off and coast for almost a year on the government's money, not saying this is right but it can really help those in need.
it is a lot more difficult to obtain now with as many who lost jobs during the recession, the government has put a lot more restrictions on it. can't give you exact figures, but both my parents lost their jobs after about 30 years of working, about 10 years to retirement too. they will pay for you to go back to school, but try doing that when your 50 and still find time for a part time job to pay the bills. my dad eventually found a new job, but my mom lost her unemployment benefits, cap that with insurance nightmares and backdating... it's a mess.
What if you decided not to live in abject poverty with 7 other neck beards who can't wash a dish to save their life?
How cool is going to be when you move back in with those guys and they drink all your beer, eat all your food and puke on your couch?
How is it going to feel knowing you've done everything you can to change it but your stuck there for the foreseeable future?
How's it going to feel when your standing out in the rain waiting for the bus, because you sold your car that you worked hard to pay off?
How is it going to feel taking a job making less than what you where, knowing it will take years to get back to what you where making let alone get back the things you lost along the way.
How is it going to feel when you get lied to again and that full time job turns out to be a seasonal job and you have to take another step down past the step you already took?
It won't sting to be part of a team, then suddenly be ripped out? You're going to like that and be cool with it?
How many steps down can you actually take before you stop saying "ahh but this is building great character"?
How about you don't lose your job but you get sick, as in cancer or you eat some contaminated lettuce and wrack up a huge medical bill, can't work and get laid off because it doesn't look like you'll be going back any time soon?
What if you find out you have some crazy disease that requires you to buy expensive meds?
What if you get in an accident, its your fault and you get sued?
Hows it going to feel when you're 60 and you're living worse off then when you did in your college days?
When you've been scratching around for 40+ years never getting anywhere always getting knocked down? Knowing you'll work until you drop and never be able to get a break?
Hows it going to feel when you tell your kid you have no idea how you're going to pay for their college because you've been forced to use their college fund to pay the bills and feed everyone?
I've never been laid off but I've seen enough people go through it that things can always get worse than your worst case scenario plans.
Talk to some retirees who worked hard, saved their entire life and now are back looking for any kind of work they can find because their retirement evaporated. How is it going to feel when you know, you will never be able to get back what you lost?
It doesn't take much to make me happy, I could easily be happy with a lot less, that doesn't mean I won't miss the things I've worked hard to get.
I make good money and don't have any problems doing the things I like. I'm a pretty frugal guy in some ways and I save and I plan for those times. I pick employers who aren't flakey, pay well and treat their employees with respect. I have fat I can trim from my monthly budget, and still I worry about if that time comes and I can't trim anymore. Then I think about what will it take to get it all back and keep moving onward and upward?
There are things that are outside of your control. The world makes sure to impress this upon you once you get out there. If you're lucky you get to learn by watching it happen to other people.
Honestly you sound like a pretty young guy just starting out. You probably view kids and wife as a boat anchor and just want to drift around and be free. I've done that, I had my fun its time to settle down and have a few kind of fun. What I'm getting at is that you can make it work for one stage of your life but that same planning might not work for every stage. It would be great if the industry could actually be a career instead of that fun time when you where totally broke and sleeping in a box.
How can the humble game artist evade such hardships???
I suggest we all shack up with the nearest Million.....no Billionaire we can find.... first dibs on Bill Gates
Know that none of that crap has ever happened to me, I'm extremely lucky and lead a very cushy life, I'm very thankful for it too. That's all crap I can think of when I think "what if". In most cases I've thought about how I would handle most of those situations but you never really know how you'll be able to deal with it until it happens. It doesn't do you any good to obsess about it but it doesn't hurt to think about it before it happens.
Plan for the worst, enjoy the good times and deal with the crazy shit the best you can when you have to and don't dwell on it. If you're going to dwell on anything dwell on the happy stuff.
Know that one thing will knock you down that you will never get up from. If you're still around to ask "was that it?" It wasn't. Pick your ass up and keep moving forward. =P
SOE layed off 35 empolyes yesterday and Ready at Dawn let go of 13.
Looks like its shaping up to be a great week!
All valid points, but don't pretend to know me or who I am. I am in fact the opposite of who you think I am. Just because I maintain a view on life and "careers" that you don't doesn't mean you know who I am. I'm married with kids coming, and I know plenty of people who share my views who have 3 kids and a mortgage. It doesn't matter: planning, saving, and creative thinking can turn a situation like this into new opportunities. The stuff you can't control, you can't control so you deal with it when it comes up, but there are many many more things that you CAN control that people refuse to control (such as saving money. Anyone can save money).
Sure, it'll feel bad for a second when I'm waiting for the bus because I had to sell my car, but then I'll get on the bus and it'll be a new experience in life and I'll get to interact with strange new people and you know what, not having a car isn't bad because life goes on and I'm still me. I couldn't care less what happens to the STUFF I had because I'm not in this business to get STUFF. I would go muscle through some other, boring program and get a job doing something MUCH more lucrative if that was my goal.
You're forgetting that I said and will say again that none of this changes the fact that getting fired sucks and hurts and all that. Then again, how many of us have either been fired or seen someone we work with get fired? You said that yourself. It's not surprising. It isn't unheard of. Far from it. I know a lot of people who were inbetweeners or animators when all the studios closed down in the late 90's. Some of them made it through it, some didn't. The ones I know who did have the same outlook on this as I do. I'm going to go with them on this kind of stuff. It can be prepared for and the blow lessened with wise living. Pure and simple. If a union is formed, I'll be first in line to buy in, but in the meantime, this is the industry we want to be in, so yeah, I'll come out and say deal with it.
Frankly, I don't want a career. I want to create and be responsible for my own future. If I end up 60 without any money, it'll be my fault and I'll deal with it. Just my personal philosophy.
Anyway, I'm sure people are sick of me, so carry on with your headshaking.
but for reals, any person getting laid off is a damn shame and I do not approve. Good luck to all those affected.
I've worked in QA for a while and I can safely say that these bugs were all certainly found by QA, it was just deemed not safe/time effective to fix them or that they were likely hard to reproduce. Getting laid off blows, I hope everyone lands on their feet. I've been unemployed for over a year now, its not fun times:(
You're right I don't know you, and I probably won't be around if adversity comes knocking again and again and again (hopefully it wont). I won't see how you handle it, especially if its the kind that never lets up. It seems like you're prepared to handle the short term, "well that week sucked" type of adversity but not the other?
You have to know that its not easy finding work and it can be a really dark time for even the most optimistic of people. Hearing its your fault you failed to plan probably doesn't make it any brighter. Even if you plan you can still easily be screwed and sideswiped. It has to suck being hired under the guise of full time permanent employment and then being treated like a temp not because the company took a down turn but because it makes the boom that much sweeter.
To add insult to injury a fellow comrade shows up with a tough shit attitude and tells everyone it will be ok if they just "plan better", if things aren't ok then its that persons fault for failing to plan better.
Seems pretty callus for a thread that probably could use a little more sympathy.
?!?! WTF? Really?? =/
I'd be all for unions but games take way too long for that to be very practical. Sure, movies cost a lot but most production wraps up in less than a year. Compare that to a game that nowadays can take anywhere from 2-5 years with a 4 week sales window and you can see how investing in a movie with a better, faster ROI can support a union with workers that are off a job for less than 2 mos. Even failed movies can recoup costs in DVD and distribution. What do we have going on for us? Four weeks, tops. You can't really plan a viable union strategy with that sort of business model.
I've yet to see any company [barring the obvious exceptions] that actually plan ahead, you know like, past the first title. Most places are glad they even managed to ship that shit out the door with the game usually being overcosted, undertested and without any post strategy going on beyond DLC. So yeah, you are bound to get layoffs.
And as for staggering projects? I mean, it's a good method to mitigate risks but the company as a whole must plan for the long term, and not just technology development either. It really is a pain to rework tech to cater to a new game title with its own look and play style. That's a lot of time spent reinventing the wheel and figuring shit out over again. Some of those things are unavoidable but they can certainly be minimized. Take long standing franchises like CoD which has only gotten better and builds on new tech, assets AND game play. Same goes with Halo and Bungie and how those games are developed. Sure, fans and 'creative devs' can argue about the credibility of a franchise making clones and rehashes, but honestly, if it pays well and the company can actually afford to do good for its employees AND make quality games, then I am all for it.
All the other companies, where most devs fall under, will go about taking bids and starting projects from scratch, hoping to strike it rich and continue on with the series. If it does great then good for you. If it fails you are screwed. If it does ok then you are screwed. If it does great and it took too long/costed too much then you are screwed. In almost all scenarios the people with no stake in the company are screwed and thats a lot of people. Back to square one.
Thinking like this has got to change.
thats because we are!
Life is unfair but it doesn't mean we can't offer sympathy to those who are on the cutting block.
People lost their jobs, these are people's livelihoods we are talking about here.
It's nice to be on that high horse and tell people to suck it up but a little sympathy never hurt anyone.
On the other hand, a "2nd Grip" makes 65K/year without overtime...
http://www.resource411.com/pdf/IATSE_Wage_Rates.PDF
Protection of basic rights is something that was hard fought for over hundreds of years and the newer tech industries just shit all over that.
Games seems like a pretty mercenary environment to work in and its infuriating when this kind of thing happens.
I rembember being laid off at Blitz and man was the atmosphere cold when then told us. Its like we suddenly became lepers and they could n't get us out the door fast enough.
Hope everyone affected finds something soon
"Plan for it".
That one's got me going.
As a side note - Vig, mind if I shoot you a PM?
I've been through this personally last Sept. with other friends and colleagues such as member Jesse Moody. Initially I wasn't surprised that layoffs happened but was pretty shocked at alot of the people that were picked. Some core members to certain projects and Professionals with years of experience over some more obvious choices and interns.
I was angry but at the same time it was like a burden had been lifted. At first I didn't think it would be too hard to find a new job at another studio. But then the industry started getting really ugly and more studios began laying more people off and not taking chances hiring new people even if you have years of experience and a solid portfolio.
So now it's getting closer to my 1 year reunion of being laid off and I've been continuing to work on my portfolio and started learning Zbrush, while still sending out the resume hoping for some luck and interest. Now it's like I have good days and bad days. There is a battle with depression and selfdoubt when being laid off, But I gotta just keep plugging away because I love artwork and videogame creation.
So yeah I can relate to others out there going through the same ordeal. To steal a quote from the movie "The Road"-
"We're the good guys and we are carrying the fire!"
Try to keep your chin up and hopefully a better opportunity will arise from the ugly scenario.
This is why we have the bill in Congress to continue unemployment payments BECAUSE people cannot find jobs.
As per making better. Its a circle. Making better, making worse, making better, making worse. In short. We have to look at the now for peoples situation. Not what may or may not happen for them down the line.
You can learn how to handle a certain amount of stress, but having the knowledge that you can lose your job any day will make your body say stop before your own mind does.
I feel that my skills and general work quality has improved after every great company downfall and the next job, but the stress never goes away.
Ha ha.
Seriously, make me wonder. In some games it's GLARINGLY obvious.
If i could thanl you on these forums Justin i would,that shit pisses me off as well.