40 axed are Rockstar San Diego ?
polycounter lvl 18
http://kotaku.com/5587413/rumor-rockstar-lays-off-40-from-red-dead-redemption-team
Anyone have any insider info on this ?
Very unfortunate if it's true, especially on the heels of such a fantastic game.
Anyone have any insider info on this ?
Very unfortunate if it's true, especially on the heels of such a fantastic game.
Replies
I played RDR, I honestly doubt they had a QA team at all.
Still loved it though, and it really sucks to hear for all those at Rockstar SD if this is true.
Sucks that a huge load like that go laid off. I was part of a big layoff like that once.
Not fun at all I tell ya.
I heard they've axed the series (a shame in itself since it was one of the better racers and i thought it was pretty successful) which may or may not explain a reduction in staff. Other than the two Red Dead games they've made, I'm pretty sure they've been primarily involved in racing games, all of which no longer exist as series.
But I agree, it's a real shame, especially with all the controversy over how they might have been treated during the RDR push and I hope these people get back into work quickly.
I mean, teaching people what softwares, pipelines etc they use takes awhile. Plus the older staff will have to guide the rooks.
Umm..
It's even more successful when you cut costs afterwards.
I'm curious to know who the folks were though - QA, contracted dudes, etc. I'd like to believe
inconvenient for staff? Yes. More expensive? Probably not. Many bean counters prefer the kick them to the curb philosophy, especially when this growing industry has someone new every day which will work for cheaper then a vet.
Companies normally hire under the guise of full time employment because its hard to get contractors to stick around and even if they do they become highly unmotivated and distracted by job searches in the last few miles of a death march.
In general a company that uses this tactic will do two things.
1) The company forces the pipeline to be simplified and very well documented, normally this happens in the dead time after going gold and after the first sales numbers come in.
2) It normally will death march its employees, they become jaded and want some satisfaction for their monumental effort. Reports of record breaking profits and insane sales numbers mixed with idle hands, normally fuels a mini revolt over wages, grumblings at the very least.
When you fire those employees, you get fresh faces who are willing to work for nothing and sleep at their desks.
That's capitalism bub, not this industry. I don't like it either. And before someone lectures me about all the great things capitalism has created, produced, invented, let me just say, the fact that most of those great things were just a product of greed.
Everyone here on these forums makes, builds, and plays games because they love to. Not because its particularly lucrative or because it will buy them 10 gold plated hummers. But yes, we need money in our culture, we need to survive. So when 40 people get cut because the fucks at the top want a meaningless couple million dollars extra to take home, its not just wrong, its disgusting. The game making community should invoke a mass exodus to Europe, set an example for the rest of the country.
once a certain amount of money ins involved that is just "better" to do. And while we have and will have those big productions, we also still have the small studios who make games like mom used to do...
sometimes I think people should be a bit less naive about how things are run. After all (I hope so at least) all those 40 people were paid over some time for that very game they worked on..
until we can master the growing of money trees... i can't see how this will change.
But sometimes it takes having it happen to a person for them to see it. When this happens to people a few times, it starts to do things to them... they get twitchy, distrustful and selfish. They stop wanting to be part of a team because they know it could all fall apart.
The Hollywood method is the way things are shifting. The sad thing is that seems to lead to just as much instability for the individual artists and possibly more abuse in the same kind of way only now they are one more step removed from the money source and possibly one more person is inserted who is looking to make bank off of a cheap labor source.
It COULD shift the other way as artists band together to form the new companies or become outsources. But I think greed has a way of twisting the best intentions.
Unfortunately, I think that in order for the big-budget game to be viable for a lot of studios we will be seeing more and more developers adopting the Hollywood model of hiring talent on short-term contracts and having very few full-time employees. It helps them minimize their development costs and also means more potential royalties if a game is a hit (two factors that please publishers). It could potentially mean further growth in the number of outsourcing groups/cooperatives, but I think that a lot of people would still prefer the 'security' of a full-time position at a dev studio. Also, more outsourcing = more competition and most developers will pick and choose the most cost effective contractors globally.
It's a shame that this industry is so boom and bust as I think job security and high staff retention rates are two key factors behind the success of studios that continue to make great games over a number of years. Unfortunately, the current business model for a lot of publishers rewards them financially for treating development staff in a cut-throat manner.
1) There are way too many people willing to stab a stranger in the back for a chance to "live the dream".
2) The workforce is spread across a bunch of companies. Unions normally form when a bunch of workers under a one employer band together to fight off a single source of evil.
3) There is very little incentive to unionize when people are working, you're getting paid things are good. It's when people suddenly get laid off that people get pissed. Kind of hard to organize then, what leverage do you have over the company?
If artists are removed from studios and become a module that plugs into it for a set amount of time, I could see it being easier for them to organize and force standards. But I don't see that happening.
Ultimately the fresh faces need to wake up to these facts a lot sooner not that they'll do anything about it, but so that they will be ready for it when it happens.
we've all worked with that guy that does nothing but ride the paycheck.
Thats one really good thing about working at a smaller studio, there arent enough people for slackers to be able to get away with that attitude.
40 does seem like quite a bit though. Wonder what portion of it was just support staff.
Best of luck to everyone affected !
There were QA staff on Red Dead?
Besides, the quarterly is coming up, and the smaller the staff the bigger the executive bonuses are gonna be.
Obviously not. I mean it only got a 95% on Metacritic.
There must have been absolutely NO testing at all whatsoever.
The only thing about this that seems dickish to me is the timing. Layoffs are not unusual in this or the film industry, from what I've been told and what I've experienced. I'm interning this summer and we just got back from a layoffs meeting. (SOE)
This is a great time for everyone to step back a second and plan ahead and put together an exit package and plan for WHEN (not if) you are laid off. These include lots of the usual things like savings enough to live off of completely (which are separate from your retirement and future savings) and include bills and mortgage payments and everything else.
On top of that, and possibly more importantly, constantly be working to improve your skills and skillsets. Just because you love texturing, don't avoid trying rigging. Branch out and constantly build your portfolio so when you do get laid off, you have options.
It was pretty lame of them to do it right after launching a critically acclaimed and successful product, but we out here on the internets have little perspective as to what actually went down and why.
The industry is changing, and this may perhaps lead to things like unions or whatever, but in the meantime, we want to make games and get paid doing it, so let's adapt. Count on getting laid off a few times over the course of your career. It's going to happen, so integrate that knowledge into your preparation and training.
This is the way I see it, anyway.
I wonder if some day game art might go more towards the visual FX house style of development. I understand there is already plenty of outsourcing and freelance contracting, but I would imagine a studio of game art dudes of different disciplines, where some of their upper management might actually go to the game studio and help plan game creation, and all the "art-ifying" would go back out to the "Art House".
As for the Pixar-approach, I think we are seeing this more and more but it requires self-ownership to really make it work, because you have to be willing to pour your profit back into your future projects and keep your employees happy for retention. You don't have to hit 95 on Metacritic every time, you just have to have some consistency to your success. If you know how much money you will probably make, then you get an idea for how much you should spend. Too many developers aim high and hit low, IMO.
Thats actually not true. Its not very expensive or time consuming to train people up on tech to where they can jump in and start pumping out content. The general princaples of one game engines transfer over quite easily, from my experance atleast. Really only takes time to learn how to import models into the engine, create shader networks and do lighting if you will ever do lighting. Most everything else can be picked up along the way once you run into those situations.
Things like learning how to model and texture are things you already know how to do and its only a matter of a week or two to get the basics of the engine down. Thats another reason why showcasing your work in an engine is such a huge plus to companys.
Generally pre-production wont require even close to the ammount of people needed as when a game is in full swing let alone crunching to the end. More then anyone you wont need as many finishing artists around so its cheaper to fire them for a few months and hire them back up when all mass-outs/ architeching of levels is compeleted. Hence why contracts are popular to some places. Just good buisness.
No, it's this industry.
It's short term thinking, short term planning and short term goals and thinking of employees as expendable and not as assets you want to keep. Just think how many (or rather few) studios really make an effort to keep staff, to offer them thought-out career plans and help them to educate themselves to become more important and loyal assets.
It is totally possible to work in a different manner if you really want to - it is possible in other industries, and they too operate in the same capitalist world the games industry does. Except maybe trends in these industries are not as fast paced as in ours, and therefore long term planning and retaining employees is an easier feat to accomplish.
Capitalism doesn't force you to think only about "share holder value". You have a choice to work differently as long as there's a profit. The real reason is mostly human greed and instant gratification/instant profit thinking, which is just all too common these days. (also known as "Geiz ist Geil" to our German friends
Which is why smart studios stagger production cycles, move a few people to preproduction before the other project is finished.
Im not saying it takes ages but if you fire 40 people and then rehire them its still ALOT of wasted man-hours. It just doesnt seem smart, i can understand that it would happen from time to time when your scheduling doesnt hold up or if you are having problems with investors etc BUT it seems like it would be a good idea to try and avoid it.
Yes pre production requires significantly less staff and that is why it should be done BEFORE your other project is finished. I would think that ideally pre production on your next game is finished at the same time as your current one goes gold.
Ultimately i think that the real loss might not be in the man-hours you lose from training but the efficiency and camraderie that is lost when you are not working with the same people that you have learned to work with and depend on. Happy people are productive people.
This is completely up to you and how well you've prepared for it. That isn't necessarily the natural, unavoidable biological response, and if you accept layoffs as a "when not if" part of working in this industry, you can be smart about it or you can land your first job and convince yourself that it'll be smooth sailing until you're 60 and they give you a pocket watch and send you on your way.
I watched people come through our department yesterday saying their goodbyes, and it sucked. A lot. I wish all of them the best, and I would never turn to them and say "LOL SUCK IT UP", but I, personally, am going to take this as a learning experience and make some plans for when I get laid off.
Besides, similar statistics show that after some time has passed, the majority of people who experience a layoff report that they considered it the catalyst that sparked a great improvement in their situation. People who get laid off turn out better off down the line because humanity functions in adversity.
I would link to videos of flying men, donkey women, horribly jittering animation, and lots of other hilarity, too lazy though. Never said it wasn't a good game :P Just riddle with bugs.
Adversity makes you appreciate what you have once you've managed to shake it off. Its the break from adversity that gives them a chance to appreciate their new station in life. If you don't get a break or improve... your life still sucks and you're still raw and primal until you get a break.
As for the idea "you just need to save". I agree its a great idea, anyone who is able to do so, should. But I would also like to know how people plan to do that when the industry starting wage means most people live pay check to pay check.
Freelance on the side? Reduce quality of life? Live below your means? Don't take jobs in California? Aside from that last one which is kind of a joke, there are always ways to save. People who say they can't either have 7 kids or are refusing to go without certain luxuries, but that's a debate for another forum.
I guess I just subscribe to the philosophy that one controls one's own life, regardless of whether or not certain things such as layoffs occur. It's something that actually attracts me to this industry: I am forced to take responsibility for my own well being instead of trying to find a job that will take care of me with full benefits and retirement packages. To each his own, though.
Not arguing that it doesn't suck or hurt.