I went GDC last month, and me and my friend met the some great artists from naughty dog, blue castele, and art directors from places like insomniac games, and even animators that worked on things like arkham asylum.
many had one thing in common: they had a great dislike for someone we knew that appeared on online forums. None of them had ever met him, but the mere mention of him pissed them off. I'm not going to call the person out, but be very very careful how you portray yourself online. Even if your a great artist (and this person im using as an example IS good), you don't want your online persona to precede you. You'd be amazed who knows you exist.
eep..ya, that really made me afread. I guess I'll control my postings here from now on, and post only where I feel necessary, or else read the conversations and learn from em. Even though there are very very few who know me.
eep..ya, that really made me afread. I guess I'll control my postings here from now on, and post only where I feel necessary, or else read the conversations and learn from em. Even though there are very very few who know me.
haha. you're basically saying you're an unbearable asshole and need to police yourself so we don't find out.
I wouldn't worry too much about it. Certainly don't stop posting. Just think before you type.
haha. you're basically saying you're an unbearable asshole and need to police yourself so we don't find out.
I wouldn't worry too much about it. Certainly don't stop posting. Just think before you type.
Thats not what I said. What I meant was if speaking freely based on someone's experience regardless of where he got that experience from is not allowed by the Pros or if the pros get ticked off and everyone start dissing that someone is kinda wrong and I'd rather not take a chance by posting. For example, you are not in the game industry and you just happen to read a blog of interview tips to get hired in some game company.
Later on you come to the PC and see a thread of someone asking generally for the tips. The experienced ones will be there obviously at first, however; there are going to be people who will use that blog reference or some sort of their personal experience ref to give the OT a different sort of prospective. Because OT knows this for the fact that this thread will be open to every opinion and every advice based on everyones' experience.
If that only fact hurts your or anyone's feelings (even those pros who read stuff only and are employeed in some game studio) and turn up to him (in the recent case Creation22 or ZacD) claiming that you know better than him and they shouldnt be saying anything but reading the pro's posts to understand pros experience and pros experience only with that "I'll punt you and drag you while your face is down all over this thread if you say any fuckin thing related to your experience because mine is better) Kinda puts everyone who works in the game industry personnel in a wrong image. Yes that includes the people you've met in GDC who got offended when you called someone's name from PC. Remember those people started up as anyother human being and have no right to disapprove of any other experience but they have the right to correct the person.
If you read the business ethics, you will not find anywhere that you have the right to stomp on someone just because he posted his experience. Even if he doesnt have any industrial experience. (which is good in many interview cases because people would want to see that sort of potential to adapt their skills)
So Moral of the story is:
I wouldnt post around alot in any thread that requires a pro talk. I wouldnt post my experience in there if pros and the viewers of the PC have this type of attitude. If pros have this problem they should pm the person they are ticked by or if the person is way off. They should pm him/her and resolve the issue(s) rather than insulting him/her in the entire discussion or killing the person's rep in real life.
To make this post simpler to read. Consider this example: Its just like someone saying "I am better than you in many cases and you are dumb so you cant post here and give him tips. If you have any problems we should take it to pm, and I'll drag your ass some more instead of resolving the issue and correcting you. By making you feel bad and not correcting you but leaving you alone after dissing you in to the entire community I'll feel alot better."
My regards to you and every other pro around here.
Besides there is a fineline written in the rule of PC that if you are being a dick or an ass you will be treated like one and eventually get banned. So I wouldnt dare to be the dick or an ass here.
I would Gurantee you guys that this post will tick people off, but if you think about it, it is practically right. If you think that the person is providing wrong info you should take it private and correct him instead.
If I was ever a dick or an ass to PC member(s), I apologise *passes pies to everyone*
Anyway it seems like a dick move to blacklist someone because he's obnoxious on polycountartisans. I wouldn't want to work with dudes who wouldnt even give the zacDs of the world a chance in person.
Attacting an artist to a project, and actually have him work with you might include actually the project being his to a certain degree too if he is not being paid.
Not in the sense of "you have to give it to him", but he will be another guy working on it for free, and to keep him interested he would want to be involved and actually have his "ownership" in it, He is not working for you, he is working on his new project.
Another trick is to look at what introversion is doing, they're just cutting away the graphical need.
I've found that I've gotten better responses from artists when I only approach them for a piece or two, compared to semi-permanent 'recruitment.'
I tend to use the 'easy portfolio fodder' route most of the time, combined with trying to pick artists who are already working towards that goal, and try to make them see it as a reasonable request. It results in a higher turnover for who's working on the project, but it fulfills both their goals, and my own.
The way I look at it, I'm not asking for anyone to dedicate their life, just lend a hand. Does it always work? No. Does it work with programmers? Dear lord no. It has worked so far, though.
@Ghost-Post counts don't matter to anyone, its all about the join date, as you can tell by my reputation.
Hey everyone, I didn't realize I was the topic of this thread (sort of) until I read the whole thing start to finish, kind of just read the first post and the last replies.
This thread went from OP -> bad advice -> dude you're wrong -> stop !@#$ing attacking me -> PC is professional you don't want to get a bad reputation, don't be like ZacD
I want talk to everyone about a few things, mostly new people.
-PC is an amazing place, and you should appreciate it and be thankful
-Getting a bad reputation.
-Old habits (including posting habits) are hard to change.
-These are real artists/people you are talking to on the internet.
-Even Adam was once a PC "troll" (source: GIM podcast)
Polycount is an amazing place, I can't say that enough. Well its not really a place, its an awesome community of crazy talented artists looking to share info/skills, as well as help new artists, and get feedback on their own work. The community can really help new artists that are just starting in the 3D field, artists that are transitioning to 3D, or even people that went to school for game art, but don't yet have a job. But its also good for artists in the field to improve their trade, and expand their knowledge. And always give back to the community. No other place like it. Polycount can be harsh and tough, but its just tough love, and everyone at PC is really here to help people become better artists.
It's easy to get a bad reputation from not listening, getting angry, being defensive, posting irrelevant comments, trolling, etc. Really, being a good poster is about learning how to accept criticism, deal with conflicting view points while still being open to new info and ideas, and understanding how to be laid back and open but serious and professional. If you come into a new community troll, spam posts ever where, and are arrogant, youre going to get a bad rep.
Everyone has different experience with the internet, communication, forums, etc. Some places its okay to troll, spam images, and be all 4chan-ish. Here, its okay to go off topic and post funny pictures, as long as youre not flaming and generally a good poster. Theres a strong-core active user base, and the forum is just active enough for everyone to get to know pretty much everyone well. So before you post, re-read youre comment and think about it for a second.
If it means anything i dont have any malice towards you anymore, and i doubt much if it is said by anyone else is in full seriousness anymore.
But yeah i agree with what you are saying.
It was never my intention to derail the thread with my calling out of c22, but it just kind of escalated from there .
One thing i must say that i find personally, i find that a persons avatar greatly affects how much i like the person, Its stupid i know, but if somone has sub-par art in their avatar ill probably be less likely to listen to them.
Nitewalker, I think there is a point you overlooked. The problem is not about the different opinions being expressed, or the lack of experience of a poster. The issue is the spreading of false information. It is happening more and more frequently these days and with so many folks taking everything they see online as 'ITS GOT TO BE TRUE ITS ON THE INTERNETS', it can get quite problematic. The recent threads about normalmapping are a superb example of this.
(Not saying that you are spreading wrong stuff yourself btw!)
Why hijack a perfectly valid thread with some internet drama bullshit?
From my subjective view, if you want to secure good talent then you need to lay down the best foundation possible. You need to make people feel safe about joining you. That means your work-in-progress needs to be a finished game that just needs art assets inserted. Because you're using an existing engine you're going to need to do more to gain their trust. For those indie developers showing off the capabilities of their self-developed engines, that'll be enough for them to pass the valley of proof.
People won't invest their time unless they know it won't be a waste of time. The relationship has to benefit both parties because... unfortunately... pure goodwill does not exist in this world. Since your project isn't complete, how do people know you won't pull out last minute? How do people know you'll even be capable of crossing the finishing line? They don't. Any trust they put in you is a pure gamble so unless you up the odds for them (either by giving them money now or proving that you'll be reliable to the finish) you aren't going to attract many.
As said before, dev blogs are very good in showing off your work. Personally, if I were you I would do what I'm doing myself! That is, developing your own engine using the latest methods and then selling it around to find talent. But my engine isn't the topic of the discussion ;- ;
An alternative is to put the effort in to learn the trade yourself. If you can show that you're competent in what they do they'll appreciate the fact that you understand how hard the craft is ~ and aren't a random Jim that pops in thinking it's easy to push all those polygons (thus since it's easy, surely they can help me, right?). By the way... it's not easy!
Be prepared to have people just disappear from the face of the earth, it's unfortunate but it seems like there are alot of flakey people out there that don't have the guts to say "I'm sorry but I can't help out with the project anymore".
Also be prepared to have people hired out from under you. Basically you need to be on a continual recruitment drive.
My opinion: leading a mod/indy project you need good organizational & communication skills.
Nitewalker, I think there is a point you overlooked. The problem is not about the different opinions being expressed, or the lack of experience of a poster. The issue is the spreading of false information. It is happening more and more frequently these days and with so many folks taking everything they see online as 'ITS GOT TO BE TRUE ITS ON THE INTERNETS', it can get quite problematic. The recent threads about normalmapping are a superb example of this.
(Not saying that you are spreading wrong stuff yourself btw!)
ok so why one would whine about it and dis the person instead of correcting him?
i do understand your point n i do agree with you. but no one is doing anything about it, just pointing fingers.
TL DNR: I got recruited to be a part of an indie game recently, and after a 5 minute conversation with the "leader" of the game decided it was not for me.
He had apparently zero professionalism, danced around all my questions re: his experience and contributions and even went so far as to tell me his linked-in contacts list would "make me shit myself with envy" because he was so awesome and knows "everybody who's important" in the games industry. His "skills" and job duties were as a "game designer" meaning he comes up with ideas, tells them to other people in chat, and lets them do all the work. And a "recruiter" which means he trawls the internet finding suckers to work on his commercial project for free/the hopeless promise of pay.
I was willing to give them a part time commitment, for free, but that wasn't enough, and when I started inquiring about what exactly the deferred compensation deal was, he had the gall to suggest that I wouldn't be a good fit for his "company" because I wasn't willing to dedicate 40+ hours a week of free work to his game...because, ya know. I needed to have paying work to pay my rent/bills/food. What nerve!
paraphrased quote: "Noes! You dont understand! This will be the best fucking game ever! You'll shit yourself, and punch yourself in the face when it comes out because you'll regret not being a part of my awesome perfect game! Just you wait! Oh, and the Unreal Engine, and Cryengine suck ass, while our never-before-used engine we got for free is 10x better because it uses DX11!"
paraphrased quote: "Noes! You dont understand! This will be the best fucking game ever! You'll shit yourself, and punch yourself in the face when it comes out because you'll regret not being a part of my awesome perfect game! Just you wait! Oh, and the Unreal Engine, and Cryengine suck ass, while our never-before-used engine we got for free is 10x better because it uses DX11!"
I actually had a similar conversation with someone who told me that because he can't figure out how UDK works it is better that he makes his own engine and hope a game comes out of it
It's also easy to get a bad rep for bigass melodramatic posts to defend yourself
it's also easy to get a good rep, even if you used to be annoying, by just being a cool dude for a couple of months. People aren't that harsh! (or if they are, dont work for those assholes!)
paraphrased quote: "Noes! You dont understand! This will be the best fucking game ever! You'll shit yourself, and punch yourself in the face when it comes out because you'll regret not being a part of my awesome perfect game! Just you wait! Oh, and the Unreal Engine, and Cryengine suck ass, while our never-before-used engine we got for free is 10x better because it uses DX11!"
reason why i follow diy until i seriously need ppl and can pay their wages. or if someone starts bugging me to join cuz he is interested. or have atleast one game done
... I'm kind of demoralized with indies lately:
Some weeks ago, I agreed with the contract and (low) payment and I was the best in the test, but... they told me I was 'too good' to be hired... (!?).
(Btw, I'm not that good).
So... are you 'really' prepared to work with quality artists, for example, without feeling yourself nasty/unfair with them? 'Yes' sounds good, in theory.
Yeah, you don't want to hop on board with 14-year-old project leads. :<
This guy was 22. I have to say...the game projects they've got going look semi professional, though I doubt they'll see commercial release. My buddy did their websites, so I know why those look good.
They also had a few very talented character artists do some work for them, so they've got some real nice media, but man...that guy was so insulting, immature and arrogant. I'd have worked for free on a cool project, but I would not have been able to put up with him without a paycheck.
One thing i must say that i find personally, i find that a persons avatar greatly affects how much i like the person, Its stupid i know, but if somone has sub-par art in their avatar ill probably be less likely to listen to them.
I dont mean its everything, its just a little thing that i noticed was subconscious with how i think about other members, as it is well the only bit of flair that we really associate with the usernames. I guess it isnt even the quality of the avatar, Its more just the image it puts out to me of the user haha. ( i remember on another forum when an awesome artist called mr jack had a glorified stick man for an avatar, and it was cool)
You are right though in a way, if someone with no previous connection to anyone jumps into this forum with my quality avatar, and starts talking, they wont assume him to be a quality artist.
Replies
eep..ya, that really made me afread. I guess I'll control my postings here from now on, and post only where I feel necessary, or else read the conversations and learn from em. Even though there are very very few who know me.
I stopped worrying at that part
haha. you're basically saying you're an unbearable asshole and need to police yourself so we don't find out.
I wouldn't worry too much about it. Certainly don't stop posting. Just think before you type.
That has to be one of the best pieces of advice I have ever read.... But make sure it's blue cheese!
And I bet Dreamer is talking about ZacD, he is the PC whore... but we all love him!
Thats not what I said. What I meant was if speaking freely based on someone's experience regardless of where he got that experience from is not allowed by the Pros or if the pros get ticked off and everyone start dissing that someone is kinda wrong and I'd rather not take a chance by posting. For example, you are not in the game industry and you just happen to read a blog of interview tips to get hired in some game company.
Later on you come to the PC and see a thread of someone asking generally for the tips. The experienced ones will be there obviously at first, however; there are going to be people who will use that blog reference or some sort of their personal experience ref to give the OT a different sort of prospective. Because OT knows this for the fact that this thread will be open to every opinion and every advice based on everyones' experience.
If that only fact hurts your or anyone's feelings (even those pros who read stuff only and are employeed in some game studio) and turn up to him (in the recent case Creation22 or ZacD) claiming that you know better than him and they shouldnt be saying anything but reading the pro's posts to understand pros experience and pros experience only with that "I'll punt you and drag you while your face is down all over this thread if you say any fuckin thing related to your experience because mine is better) Kinda puts everyone who works in the game industry personnel in a wrong image. Yes that includes the people you've met in GDC who got offended when you called someone's name from PC. Remember those people started up as anyother human being and have no right to disapprove of any other experience but they have the right to correct the person.
If you read the business ethics, you will not find anywhere that you have the right to stomp on someone just because he posted his experience. Even if he doesnt have any industrial experience. (which is good in many interview cases because people would want to see that sort of potential to adapt their skills)
So Moral of the story is:
I wouldnt post around alot in any thread that requires a pro talk. I wouldnt post my experience in there if pros and the viewers of the PC have this type of attitude. If pros have this problem they should pm the person they are ticked by or if the person is way off. They should pm him/her and resolve the issue(s) rather than insulting him/her in the entire discussion or killing the person's rep in real life.
To make this post simpler to read. Consider this example: Its just like someone saying "I am better than you in many cases and you are dumb so you cant post here and give him tips. If you have any problems we should take it to pm, and I'll drag your ass some more instead of resolving the issue and correcting you. By making you feel bad and not correcting you but leaving you alone after dissing you in to the entire community I'll feel alot better."
My regards to you and every other pro around here.
Besides there is a fineline written in the rule of PC that if you are being a dick or an ass you will be treated like one and eventually get banned. So I wouldnt dare to be the dick or an ass here.
I would Gurantee you guys that this post will tick people off, but if you think about it, it is practically right. If you think that the person is providing wrong info you should take it private and correct him instead.
If I was ever a dick or an ass to PC member(s), I apologise *passes pies to everyone*
Lets get back to the topic shall we?
Anyway it seems like a dick move to blacklist someone because he's obnoxious on polycountartisans. I wouldn't want to work with dudes who wouldnt even give the zacDs of the world a chance in person.
now back to topic.
Attacting an artist to a project, and actually have him work with you might include actually the project being his to a certain degree too if he is not being paid.
Not in the sense of "you have to give it to him", but he will be another guy working on it for free, and to keep him interested he would want to be involved and actually have his "ownership" in it, He is not working for you, he is working on his new project.
Another trick is to look at what introversion is doing, they're just cutting away the graphical need.
I tend to use the 'easy portfolio fodder' route most of the time, combined with trying to pick artists who are already working towards that goal, and try to make them see it as a reasonable request. It results in a higher turnover for who's working on the project, but it fulfills both their goals, and my own.
The way I look at it, I'm not asking for anyone to dedicate their life, just lend a hand. Does it always work? No. Does it work with programmers? Dear lord no. It has worked so far, though.
.....what the hell? This will not get you any artist
Ruz' post count brings all the artists to the yard
Hey everyone, I didn't realize I was the topic of this thread (sort of) until I read the whole thing start to finish, kind of just read the first post and the last replies.
This thread went from OP -> bad advice -> dude you're wrong -> stop !@#$ing attacking me -> PC is professional you don't want to get a bad reputation, don't be like ZacD
I want talk to everyone about a few things, mostly new people.
-PC is an amazing place, and you should appreciate it and be thankful
-Getting a bad reputation.
-Old habits (including posting habits) are hard to change.
-These are real artists/people you are talking to on the internet.
-Even Adam was once a PC "troll" (source: GIM podcast)
Polycount is an amazing place, I can't say that enough. Well its not really a place, its an awesome community of crazy talented artists looking to share info/skills, as well as help new artists, and get feedback on their own work. The community can really help new artists that are just starting in the 3D field, artists that are transitioning to 3D, or even people that went to school for game art, but don't yet have a job. But its also good for artists in the field to improve their trade, and expand their knowledge. And always give back to the community. No other place like it. Polycount can be harsh and tough, but its just tough love, and everyone at PC is really here to help people become better artists.
It's easy to get a bad reputation from not listening, getting angry, being defensive, posting irrelevant comments, trolling, etc. Really, being a good poster is about learning how to accept criticism, deal with conflicting view points while still being open to new info and ideas, and understanding how to be laid back and open but serious and professional. If you come into a new community troll, spam posts ever where, and are arrogant, youre going to get a bad rep.
Everyone has different experience with the internet, communication, forums, etc. Some places its okay to troll, spam images, and be all 4chan-ish. Here, its okay to go off topic and post funny pictures, as long as youre not flaming and generally a good poster. Theres a strong-core active user base, and the forum is just active enough for everyone to get to know pretty much everyone well. So before you post, re-read youre comment and think about it for a second.
But yeah i agree with what you are saying.
It was never my intention to derail the thread with my calling out of c22, but it just kind of escalated from there
One thing i must say that i find personally, i find that a persons avatar greatly affects how much i like the person, Its stupid i know, but if somone has sub-par art in their avatar ill probably be less likely to listen to them.
But yeah, the avatar thing effects me too, sometimes.
(Not saying that you are spreading wrong stuff yourself btw!)
From my subjective view, if you want to secure good talent then you need to lay down the best foundation possible. You need to make people feel safe about joining you. That means your work-in-progress needs to be a finished game that just needs art assets inserted. Because you're using an existing engine you're going to need to do more to gain their trust. For those indie developers showing off the capabilities of their self-developed engines, that'll be enough for them to pass the valley of proof.
People won't invest their time unless they know it won't be a waste of time. The relationship has to benefit both parties because... unfortunately... pure goodwill does not exist in this world. Since your project isn't complete, how do people know you won't pull out last minute? How do people know you'll even be capable of crossing the finishing line? They don't. Any trust they put in you is a pure gamble so unless you up the odds for them (either by giving them money now or proving that you'll be reliable to the finish) you aren't going to attract many.
As said before, dev blogs are very good in showing off your work. Personally, if I were you I would do what I'm doing myself! That is, developing your own engine using the latest methods and then selling it around to find talent. But my engine isn't the topic of the discussion ;- ;
An alternative is to put the effort in to learn the trade yourself. If you can show that you're competent in what they do they'll appreciate the fact that you understand how hard the craft is ~ and aren't a random Jim that pops in thinking it's easy to push all those polygons (thus since it's easy, surely they can help me, right?). By the way... it's not easy!
My opinion.
Also be prepared to have people hired out from under you. Basically you need to be on a continual recruitment drive.
My opinion: leading a mod/indy project you need good organizational & communication skills.
ok so why one would whine about it and dis the person instead of correcting him?
i do understand your point n i do agree with you. but no one is doing anything about it, just pointing fingers.
He had apparently zero professionalism, danced around all my questions re: his experience and contributions and even went so far as to tell me his linked-in contacts list would "make me shit myself with envy" because he was so awesome and knows "everybody who's important" in the games industry. His "skills" and job duties were as a "game designer" meaning he comes up with ideas, tells them to other people in chat, and lets them do all the work. And a "recruiter" which means he trawls the internet finding suckers to work on his commercial project for free/the hopeless promise of pay.
I was willing to give them a part time commitment, for free, but that wasn't enough, and when I started inquiring about what exactly the deferred compensation deal was, he had the gall to suggest that I wouldn't be a good fit for his "company" because I wasn't willing to dedicate 40+ hours a week of free work to his game...because, ya know. I needed to have paying work to pay my rent/bills/food. What nerve!
paraphrased quote: "Noes! You dont understand! This will be the best fucking game ever! You'll shit yourself, and punch yourself in the face when it comes out because you'll regret not being a part of my awesome perfect game! Just you wait! Oh, and the Unreal Engine, and Cryengine suck ass, while our never-before-used engine we got for free is 10x better because it uses DX11!"
@muz: my avatar is an excellent drawing of a sheep.
I actually had a similar conversation with someone who told me that because he can't figure out how UDK works it is better that he makes his own engine and hope a game comes out of it
it's also easy to get a good rep, even if you used to be annoying, by just being a cool dude for a couple of months. People aren't that harsh! (or if they are, dont work for those assholes!)
reason why i follow diy until i seriously need ppl and can pay their wages. or if someone starts bugging me to join cuz he is interested. or have atleast one game done
Some weeks ago, I agreed with the contract and (low) payment and I was the best in the test, but... they told me I was 'too good' to be hired... (!?).
(Btw, I'm not that good).
So... are you 'really' prepared to work with quality artists, for example, without feeling yourself nasty/unfair with them? 'Yes' sounds good, in theory.
This guy was 22. I have to say...the game projects they've got going look semi professional, though I doubt they'll see commercial release. My buddy did their websites, so I know why those look good.
They also had a few very talented character artists do some work for them, so they've got some real nice media, but man...that guy was so insulting, immature and arrogant. I'd have worked for free on a cool project, but I would not have been able to put up with him without a paycheck.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK
haha
I better bring back The Anus, if i want to be taken seriously.
must be the polycount green.
Speaking of avatars, when does the Michael Dick joke stop to be funny?
damn we are seriously derailing this thread.
edit: haha eld
Speaking of taking avatars seriously, you cant take Muzz's avatar seriously either, but you can love him for it. <.<
I dont mean its everything, its just a little thing that i noticed was subconscious with how i think about other members, as it is well the only bit of flair that we really associate with the usernames. I guess it isnt even the quality of the avatar, Its more just the image it puts out to me of the user haha. ( i remember on another forum when an awesome artist called mr jack had a glorified stick man for an avatar, and it was cool)
Like i said it is stupid....