Attracting a quality artist to your WIP Game.
polycounter lvl 10
First post here. I've lurked from time to time just to be wowed by the creations of some of you guys.
I'm not trolling for free work to be done on my project but that IS the nature of my question.
Some of you guys are probably loaded up with good paying work and many of you have incredible portfolios, so I understand that many people that read this would never consider working without money up-front.
As an independent game developer I'm at a stage where my game play is well developed, the code is tight enough to perform on the target platform, and I understand the engine well enough to give an artist the code support he needs to render high quality artwork.
As you guys are likely aware, there are thousands of posts all over the web asking for Artists, Riggers, Animators, Texture Artists, etc. to sign on to their project in exchange for "possible future royalties" when the game goes commercial.
These are exciting times for indy developers because the engines the big boys use are becoming freely available to us all.
I'm using the UDK currently, and Crytek's Engine #3 will be rolling out on a similar licensing deal soon. So anyone that can fog a mirror now has access to what was this time last year a million dollar toolset.
However, creating a AAA quality game requires an insane amount of artwork.
You don't just need models, you need skinning, normal maps, baked AO, and quality animation. To further exacerbate the issue, when you have an honest intent to go commercial you need to insure that your entire toolchain is legitimate.
Since the UDK ActorX import tool only supports MAX and Maya native formats that means finding an artist with legitimate access to a $3,000 piece of software.
Now to the question.
What tips can you give me for attracting a high quality artist or several of them to put their blood sweat and tears into a "money in the future" type of project?
Some common sense things spring to mind. For example, if they love the game concept that has to be a plus.
Having a deliverable with programmer art is a mixed bag. If they love the gameplay that may help, but a well coded game with programmer art looks worse than a game made with a VB script gamemaker that has good art.
It's also very tough to demonstrate gameplay if your gameplay relies on a lot of animation, and you don't have the skillset or toolset to create it.
Just to define the spirit of this thread. I don't expect anyone to get ramped up about my project and volunteer their time and effort. I'm asking for some advice from the pros.
What approach would have the best impact on people that can create art at such a high level?
I'm not trolling for free work to be done on my project but that IS the nature of my question.
Some of you guys are probably loaded up with good paying work and many of you have incredible portfolios, so I understand that many people that read this would never consider working without money up-front.
As an independent game developer I'm at a stage where my game play is well developed, the code is tight enough to perform on the target platform, and I understand the engine well enough to give an artist the code support he needs to render high quality artwork.
As you guys are likely aware, there are thousands of posts all over the web asking for Artists, Riggers, Animators, Texture Artists, etc. to sign on to their project in exchange for "possible future royalties" when the game goes commercial.
These are exciting times for indy developers because the engines the big boys use are becoming freely available to us all.
I'm using the UDK currently, and Crytek's Engine #3 will be rolling out on a similar licensing deal soon. So anyone that can fog a mirror now has access to what was this time last year a million dollar toolset.
However, creating a AAA quality game requires an insane amount of artwork.
You don't just need models, you need skinning, normal maps, baked AO, and quality animation. To further exacerbate the issue, when you have an honest intent to go commercial you need to insure that your entire toolchain is legitimate.
Since the UDK ActorX import tool only supports MAX and Maya native formats that means finding an artist with legitimate access to a $3,000 piece of software.
Now to the question.
What tips can you give me for attracting a high quality artist or several of them to put their blood sweat and tears into a "money in the future" type of project?
Some common sense things spring to mind. For example, if they love the game concept that has to be a plus.
Having a deliverable with programmer art is a mixed bag. If they love the gameplay that may help, but a well coded game with programmer art looks worse than a game made with a VB script gamemaker that has good art.
It's also very tough to demonstrate gameplay if your gameplay relies on a lot of animation, and you don't have the skillset or toolset to create it.
Just to define the spirit of this thread. I don't expect anyone to get ramped up about my project and volunteer their time and effort. I'm asking for some advice from the pros.
What approach would have the best impact on people that can create art at such a high level?
Replies
If you are in a position financially to pay the sort of money you will have to pay to license UE3 then it would be inappropriate to then ask people to work for free, or for 'possible' reimbursement later.
You have to think about the artists position too. Chances are, especially in the current economic climate, an artist will be in one of two positions.. Employed, in which case they are unlikely to want to dedicate their free time to unpaid work. Or they will be looking for a job, in which case every minute spent on portfolio work will be counting so again, dedicating free time to a project that might not showcase any kind of portfolio worthy work would be seen as wasted time.
Let's face it, no matter what kind of game you are making showing the art made for it ahead of launch isn't going to hurt the game in any way. Provided the art is up to professional standards, it might even help market it.
EDIT:
I forgot to mention the Modo can export static meshes to UDK just fine, and I believe Blender might be able to export animations to UDK as well. So having access to Max, Maya, or XSI shouldn't be a stopping point for you. You just need to workout your desired asset creation pipeline before you get into full swing production.
EDIT2:
Isn't there a "for XNA use" version of XSI for premium members of the XNA creators club? Seems like another cheap way to access pro dev tools, provided you are planning to release through XNA.
2. I would put forward the case that your strengths and weaknesses should be factored into the game you're designing. If you have no way of skinning or rigging characters and the game is heavily dependent on it, maybe you should take another look at the design? becoming reliant on strangers over the internet for whether your project flops or not is risky. Also look at Alien Swarm, which used stock unreal characters to great effect, requiring no custom animation or skinning (as far as I can tell)
3. Artists have a good imagination.. and its often part of our job to take some basic boxy ugly programmer art and tart it up- So I don't think you should be worried about it looking good to attract artists. Start with creating some youtube vids clearly showing off the awesome gameplay (look at sumotori for example. Box characters, awesome gameplay), and get a version of the game into the hands of interested artists asap
Its called SoftImage: XSI Mod tool, and XNA Game Studio 2.0.NET with VisualC# Express and DirectX 6 or 7 (whichever one came out in 2006)
Or 3.0 with game programming for MS Zune edition.
To the OT;
After reading the replies so far, if you are still up to create "AAA" game and know the programming well in relates to (Providing games for different systems) Than the first step is to write the storyline and traditional arts (rough sketch of the models and scenes) whatever it takes to bring your idea visible to others. If you do this step now you are guranteed to get some crits, and thoughts from others and modify it until you finally get to the point where you start modeling the environment, characters and etc. The first step is important because you will want to propose your idea(s) to the artists (and perhaps others) and your plan on achiving it. You might not get pros to do some volunteer work for you on your project at first, unless they are free, or they really get interested in your project and know your skills from the past, however; you may get more people who are looking for an entry level position and are able to do what it takes to get in to the Game Development Realm.
EDIT: To Sum everything up after observing the flow of discussion here.
You must have the following as the startup:
-Know what you are doing or about to do.
-Critical thinking of your idea of the product.
-Brief Summary of your Idea(Concept). In written notes, point wise.
-Detail of your Idea(Concept). Elaborating the points in written notes.
-Storyline.
-Character listing and perhaps rough sketches. Usually it is more of a List of what you imagine the characters to look like. With their specification details and so on.
-Sketches of initial weapons prior to every character sketch would be a plus.
-Must have something started up in terms of programming.
-Good communication and convicing skills.
-Have the manageral (however the hell you spell it) attitude to show your potential towards achiving your goal.
-Be friendly and show progress in order to prove your committment.
-"Work as a team" skill is essential to your persue.
What not to do in order to gain their interest(s):
-Dont be a dick. There are many people who would go out looking for other people yet they havent done anything. They just thought of something and walked out the door to find people. Which will just make a joke out of you.
-People would not want to work with someone who will take everything and run away if his product succeed (as many stated here).
EDIT: Also if you plan on this long run you might want to ask your friends who have the same desire as you, and who also can work free for you at the starting point.
EDIT2: I modified the list and will stop here. Reason being; soo many things of To Do and Not To Do and I believe everyone should set their own environment. The things I enlisted here are the things when you are starting up your project.
Good luck
so 1. have something ppl want to work with
2. be easy / fun to work with
I agree with this completely, whenever I find a posting where the first thing they mention is that compensation happens whenever the game gets picked up I would click back on my browser. I'd rather have something creative and awesome to work on that excites me and not bulls*** me with the whole compensation thing than just saying there's no money involved.
As for what personally attracts me to a mod or game, it's organization and the drive of the other people involved. If you have clear goals and a plan for reaching them, I think it goes a long way towards proving that people won't be wasting their time with your game. I've been involved in several mods and games, none of which went anywhere either because of poor management or a lack of interest by those involved. Having someone with the ability to delegate, plan and motivate whilst not being a tyrannical twat is a fine line to walk, but it's one I think is necessary in an indie game situation.
this
If you have a slick, well written design document, working prototypes, FUN ideas and can communicate in a nice way, I don't think there will be a problem getting some talent to join.
On the other hand, if the game concept is "like UT3, only with bigger guns and melee weapons" and your prototypes are damage amplifying mutators it will be nigh impossible to find someone serious and skilled.
//edit: Haha rooster, I always give good advice!
In my particular case I find that I'm not always working on the coolest stuff at the office, so I kinda use my opportunity at home to work on cool stuff I'd like to work on.
I've been a part of side projects where the games have become something really funky and interesting, then asked to make a lineup of 50's style cars (which is around the time I dropped out).
Then another was to make an airplane simulator for the iphone, but then was later then asked to change the airplane to a Dot, and the game just became a series of lines and dots.
I've been in a modding team where the leader expected me to dedicate 8 hours every day to the project, while under an NDA that didn't allow me to show my work after it was done. That's an outrageous thing to expect for someone trying to get into a job while running some freelance stuff in order to make a living. It was a very short term I had in that team, I simply couldn't give them that much of my free time without any kind of monthly compensation to keep the bills payed.
Of course I won't mention the team or game they worked on for good measures, this might only be a problem between me and them.
Good luck with the game! It seems like you're a person that understands.
For the purposes of my specific project. I've been programming for more than a decade, although not on games, and I understand the difference between a realistic and unrealistic project for an indy to tackle.
I've been in the "making an engine" loop for years and years as my hobby, and if any of you are also programmers, or work closely with them you probably know about that tarpit. I've coded about 4 distinct engines, none of which were feature complete, and once you compare it to a great toolchain like Unreal you realize that your engine is closer to a tech demo than a real toolset.
So while some of you guys hearts are in the right place, please understand I'm not trying to sneak up on you and appeal to your better angels to get you to join me, nor asking for entry level advice on how to get a team together. The fact is im not ready yet, and I don't want this thread to turn in to some type of come on at the end.
When I get to the point I feel I'm ready, I do plan on taking the advice you guys have given me to heart because I DO want to work with the best people available to me. If I can get a strong message that I think I can convey to other programmers I may also use this thread as detail for an article on Gamedev.net.
I don't know the general attitude in the business or how artists are seen in the professional industry, but I can tell you that most real hackers in the indy scene are in awe at what you guys can do pushing some vertices around.
I hope you guys don't think my long response is borish. I want you guys to know that I appreciate the education.
On to your feedback:
@easterislandnick - I agree 100% that it's all about getting a product out there and then iterating. My specific idea is a sword and sorcery pvp, e-sport type of game. So while polish and balance are what it will be judged by, it avoids the massive amount of content that must be generated for a typical "campaign" type of game.
I believe that if I channel that time into quality and polish on the details that it will rival games that are far broader, but not as deep. Think Team Fortress 2. It's a limited number of maps with a pretty small ruleset, but well polished with deep tactical play.
@creationtwentytwo- I just want to be sure that you know that the UDK license is $99 and 25% of post distribution revenue now. Crytek is rolling out a similar license. So you no longer need $750K to get your hands on the industry standard.
When I said it was an exciting time to be an indy dev that's what I meant. It wouldn't amaze me if big studios started using that license because Epic is constantly refactoring the engine so that what you may need code access to today, you won't need tomorrow. Even if you have a grand budget, partnering with Epic for 25% share isn't necessarily a bad move.
@Ben Apuna- Blender can export animations if you know all of the little tricks to make it work.(basically having a root for your hierarchy and having it and your highest level parent bone centered at the origin), but it takes a real wizard to know how to get it in game with all of the multiple uv's and details intact. Maybe it's just so glaring because the rest of the toolchain is so polished.
About the Art NDA, this is the first comment that really hits home for me and I'll be including it in the "What I've learned" part at the bottom.
Your point is that having an Art NDA makes the work useless beyond the game itself because you can't add it to your portfolio, and that allowing the art to be shared can be free advertising so long as the art is compelling. I agree completely and that's the type of gem I was hoping for when I posted. Thank you.
Ok no more @'s
The next theme I'm catching is "get paid later when it makes money" is a turn off and reeks o' bullshit. Let's assume for a moment that your revenue model IS exactly that though. Should that point be minimized, at risk of having the artist think you're trying to get over on them? Is there a better way to approach it?
Several of you said that a completed design is very important. Are you looking for a standard design document or are you looking for a pre-delivered art bible?
Is a list of all the art assets required useful? Or is that just depressing?
As an example, my 1000 foot view of art assets hit list.
Does that mean I have a handle on what's in front of us or does that mean I'm a masochist.
When trying to convey the concepts, is using pictures you found on the web acceptable for concept art or should I really rely on my "a bit better than stick figures" art?
The next theme I'm pulling out is that it needs to be something the artist can really get interested in, as an example, they don't want the mass of their work to be the boilerplate work they do on their day job.
I have several questions in this vein. There's a corollary in programming, where everyone wants to code the sexy stuff but nobody wants to write the database interface that makes it meaningful.
So for the look and feel of my concept I understand that sword and sorcery has been done to death, and done very well by high caliber teams of pros.
Is it unreasonable to aim for, or expect an other-worldy environment in the vein of Avatar? Where the laws of physics are the same but the flora and fauna are alien and the rules of the ecosystem are unknown? I mean something really alien and interesting.
Is this the moonshot you have to pay millions for or is this type of creative direction just strangled for safer approaches?
Ok, I lied about no more @'s , one more.
@Target_Renegade
I'd appreciate C&C on my business plan since you brought it up.
My base strategy is to pre-code all of the logic and game rules and to develop a single map. Then I'm going to muck through the content creation on a winnowed down amount of content. Then I'll pack it together and have a deliverable(albeit a crappy looking one with limited features). So I plan on being able to email an installer that you can run and play a functional proof of concept on before I try to involve anyone else.(I'm still back on forth on whether to contract out at least the models so it doesn't look like "sleestack wars")
My plan then is to be picky, and to work on the team until I get people that I think are rockstars, or as close to it as I can find. There are a couple of professional coders in the UDK community that have some commercial titles shipped that I believe I can grab if my gameplay proves out.
Once the team is assembled I want to fill in the blanks. The art direction I'm looking for is other-worldy, high fantasy, and gritty. If we can think of a different concept for a tree, I'm game. If small flocks of lizards fly around and communicate with electric flashes, wohoo! I lack the skills to create graphic art, but everybody knows when they've been wowed.
Once we hit a level of polish where we are losing time because we're all playing the game instead of building it I want to push it out as a free demo on Steam and a few other electronic distributors.
Because of its' pvp and e-sports nature if it's going to make it then we should get a pretty large installed base. The re-playability is a function of the gameplay, not the content.
Then it's either begin work on a patch if we find we need additional polish or else go to work on additional content.
The free demo will let you play 5 maps 5 classes and allow you to get up to level 7. The content patch will up the level to 10 for paying customers and we may add a class or two depending on the installed base and the team. Along with new armors and additional art content.
So non-payers will get the new maps and the ability to play along with the new classes and new equipment but not play or purchase them. If the installed base is lackluster I'd probably release a mini-patch before-hand to get the number up.
The for-pay content patch should capture some decent percentage of the installed base, and due to the competitive nature of the game if it's worthwhile there will a strong incentive to purchase.
After that it's about mixing free content in with for-pay content and trying to work up your installed base.
The major negative is it's a lot of work with the strategy being "give it away" as the first leg of the journey. Revenue streams are a "featured server" list that costs $5 or $7 a month to be listed on in the main game GUI, and a DLC that ups the max level, but not so much that non-payers can't enjoy the game as well.
For the income distribution I don't have a silver bullet. I want to keep the team small and high quality and I want to maintain a plurality on the IP rights. If the IP becomes valuable I want to sell it to the highest bidder and split the profits in some proportion that was equitable for everyone.
If any part of that strikes you poorly, get after it and don't spare my feelings please.
Axioms thus far:
1) Art NDA's are counter-productive from all angles.
2) "Getting paid later when it makes money" is largely seen as BS. If that's the reality of the project it appears to hold a very low to no incentive to the artist.
3) Letting the artist actually be creative is a strong driver. You need to be ready to accept a concept shift when it's for the better, and you need to be willing to recognize it when you see it.
I do know that yeah, but 25% of ALL revenue is a pretty massive share.
You talk about UDK for commercial projects like it'll cost you next to nothing, when you factor in the 25% to Epic, you've got even less money to pay your artists that worked for free.
With regards to your business plan, it sounds rather... ambitious.
Unless you've got investor backing or a shitload of existing capital, then you've got one mammoth project there.
EDIT: After reading your 'business plan' properly.. it sounds like... a joke?
What makes you think you're gonna get 'rockstars' on board. I don't mean to spoil the dream but most of the 'rockstars' are already working, for people like erm... Rockstar.
Now where is the download link ?
I'm with you there, on both fronts really. As to the 25% I'm thinking I hired a John Carmack level engine programmer and world class tool builder and put them on a combined commission of 25%. Most people would pull the trigger on that opportunity. Additionally you get a license for speed tree, Scaleform GFX, and Bink. You have to really knock it out of the park from a revenue standpoint to pay more than you would for the retail licenses.
To complicate the model Steam takes another 15% for distribution. On the positive side, they have a huge install base and if you check out some of the free demos available today, getting on there shouldn't be too large a hurdle.
edit to your edit.
It may be that most of the artwork I'm seeing here is all by people already at top studios but just looking through the What Are You Workin On thread there are tons of super-talented people here. I could be off my rocker, that's why I'm asking for feedback.
There are of course exceptions, but even then, it's people who're still in college etc and will be looking for paid work after graduating.
I still think you're ambitious expecting 'top talent' to work with you for free.
You have to be as good as the artists you are trying to attract, and be able to do everything they want to see graphically. Not many guys in the indy world can do that.
So you have to prove yourself. Dev blogs for projects are great, reading about code monkeys doing crazy things and looking at the pretty pictures and example videos makes me a happy art monkey.
Blow minds with ye code and ye shall gain the ears of the skilled.
Creation22: what is up with you always acting like you have been employed for a decade and handing out advice....
One issue I've found with hobby projects in the past is an overload of people joining in who can't actually contribute. People who can only do (crappy) pencil sketches or fractals / filters as the designated "art lead," etc. I think that in a project like this, everyone should be considered equals, and if someone is contributing a lot, they should have a bit more "say."
So long as people are working for free, throw out conventional hierarchies, focus on forward development, non-contributors trying to contribute with 'direction' and 'ideas' be damned. That does bring up the issue of an amateur artist creating something for the project that is less than desirable, and your using it for lack of anything better; should someone else coming on board to tidy up the art replace those assets? Will the previous contributor be butt-hurt?
It can swiftly become a battle of egos and that would drive me, personally, away. In an ideal world, the previous contributor should work with the new artist to better their skills and learn whatever they can, but people can be arrogant, and that is not productive.
Firstly, when you say 'always', do you just mean in this thread or can you link to some other examples where I've been 'acting like I've been employed for a decade'.
Secondly, I think I'm entitled to my opinion regardless of my position. What use is it gonna be to the OP if he just gets a load of 'vets' telling him that nobody from top studios will be interested.
EDIT:
I guess you can only mean this thread.. which hardly qualifies as 'always' dontcha think.
My last 10 or so posts have been:
A book recommedation, a thread about specific modeling positions, a thread about ENTRY LEVEL EMPLOYMENT, a rant about paid content in MMO's, a heads up to one of Racer445's tutorials, a couple of congratulations posts and a good luck to Haiasi with his Blizzard Internship application.
So kindly reword or stfu.
Opinion you're entitled to, advice on the other hand, that should only come from actual experience; and if your advice is just your opinion then you are doing it wrong.
I dont see that happening?
Bleh im polluting this poor guys thread with an off topic argument, if you want to continue this hit me up on pm.
Not really. Thanks for the offer though.
I don't know if this is crazy talk but maybe just focus on finding one good concept artist to do a "marketing piece": a cool painting of the hero jumping over a barricade spraying bullets into the bad guy aliens. A picture is worth a 1,000 words and all the 1,000 word mod recruitment posts really turn me off. A short description and a cool concept painting should be enough to make artists go "wow, I wan't to model that!"
It's an untapped resource but there are decent artist on Deviantart who you take paid commissions for artwork, you could probably get a marketing piece done for about $100 or less.
Kind of cool to hear you saying this Muzz, as this behaviour annoys me to no end, and I personally hold off on giving lots of advice because I do not feel my 'opinions' are 'valid' when I don't even have a portfolio online, etc. However, in torturing myself over this issue, I have found that it's not so much what the person giving the advice is capable of, it's HOW the advice is given.
There are countless members of this board who offer advice as if they are the authority on how things can be done - yourself included, in that post (despite its needing to be brought up). There is a heavy-handed tone to a lot of the 'critique' and 'advice' posted on these forums, and unless it's intended as sarcasm, I can only see it as antagonistic. Why should we be at odds with one another? (As a group of individuals coming together out of common interest, hobby, passion, career, employment, whatever.)
In observing "how to properly offer advice and opinions," I have found that the BEST advice, coming from the most talented (ie, experienced) individuals is open-minded, lenient and honest; there is no actual cock-waving at all among these productive contributors, unless in jest; the actual advice they offer is valuable not only because they are experienced, but because they take everything into account and offer an educated assessment, without antagonism, or ego.
It is important to be aware of this in dealing with strangers on a forum, I believe, but also inversely one must be able to accept advice and others' ideas without bristling, without their ego getting in the way. Of course, this is just my feeling, and really not relevant but to the fact that this is a public forum, being something I have noticed, etc.
Anyways, the only advice I have for you is not even mine, and I think it's been given in this thread already, but just to be sure I'll repeat it: keep it simple, a small game should be a good starting point.
Good luck dude
I'm with most everybody else that the talk of payment is a turnoff. It reeks of 'pie in the sky'. I think the best course of action is to just leave payment out of it until it comes up. If someone wants to know what the compensation is, they'll ask.
I personally don't look for an 'art-bible', just something that says you have a vision for the project. I've been in situations where the lead on a mod says 'eh, just do whatever...I'll tell you if I like it or not'. Not only is that a complete waste of time, it says you haven't put any thought into how you want the game to look. For a good artist, a thorough design doc and some example art should spark enough ideas that they can get started concepting.
It means you put some thought into it and understand the scope of your project. I'd say that's a good thing.
A bit of both, I'd think. There's nothing wrong with kludging together some google pics to convey the feel of the game, but you might as well sketch up things you can't find. Even if it's just a springboard for an actual concept artist it will give people your ideas in a format they can expand on. As Jessie said, getting some commission work done just to attract potential artists will probably go a long way.
I don't think it's crazy talk, but you need to be the one that takes the bull by the horns, or find someone you really trust to do it. If you have a complete vision for the world and can safely guide someone through the process then I'd say it'd make for some interesting and fun art. If you don't have that plan, it'll probably just end up disjointed and goofy or bad. Basically, if you want to take on something out of the ordinary, you have to be the driving force of ideas and cohesion.
All the above is purely for attracting artists to the project. When you're just trying to explain your idea, use any means you can. Grabbing stuff from the web is fine. Keeping your descriptions succinct and clear is important, and pictures help a lot in this regard.
One last thing, you could generate some good will by browsing the tech threads on forums like this one, and offering things like scripts, fixes, exporters etc. To keep it relevant to your own project, see if there's any holes in the UDK art pipeline or anything that could be improved on and see if you can help out. Santiago Orgaz, creator of Xnormal, has loads of artists willing to help him because he provided an amazing tool for free, and made himself a presence on the game art forums.
Some cash now.
If your project is going to be a success, and you're sure you're going to be a success, then take out a loan to pay these people. If you are making a game to make money from it, if that is your goal, then that will be the goal of the other people you are working with, and ergo you need to assuage that goal with some green.
This is worth a good read:
http://www.povonline.com/cols/COL209.htm
If you want to make a game because you want to make a game, that's different. If its something that you might sell if its something special, that's OK, and its good to come up with an agreement on how that is handled and to plan for that eventuality somewhat. But a no-pay-to-make game is a hobby. And a hobby game is totally a collaborative project between several people who are making the game they want to make. This is not Your Game. It is The Team's Game, and you're working with people. You are not The Boss, you are the programmer (maybe even the lead programmer!), but you don't have the final say in everything on a hobby game. No one does, agreements are made by consensus, and for this reason you are going to have a small team or never agree on anything.
The hobby games I've made have always been with friends collaborating on a project. Everyone fits into their own role, but everyone has some level of authorship and its a collaborative project. It is not Some Dude who is dictating The Way Things Are.
Right now you are coming off as if you want to make some money, or break into the Fantastic Games Industry With Your Amazing Product. The only people you're going to attract are inexperienced idiots because those are the only people who haven't been burned by that shit once before.
If you're instead looking to make a game, and maybe it will be a portfolio/showcase piece, then stop thinking about cash, and start thinking about something fun, put together your part of it (and being "The Brains" is not your part - thats the fun part, and thats everyone's part on a hobby project) and get other people together to make their parts.
If you know someone's doing something with the goal of a commercial release, I'd be less willing to work without compensation, and at the same time that person's business sense (or lack of) becomes an issue. There's already such a fear of getting involved with a dead end project, at least with a non-commercial one you know if it goes wrong you've still got all your assets, and you can use them wherever you damn well please. If a commercial project gets put on the backburner or spends years looking for a publisher, your stuff is stuck in development hell.
Just let the project be the project and bring up cash (as in: I'd like to pay you for exclusive use of these assets you made) once you see a clear path to a release. That means: You've got something to shop around, a working demo preferably, and you know you can afford to work on the project untill it's fit for release.
In reponse to DarthNater: I think a playable demo with placeholder graphics would be much better than running the risk of insulting the 'lesser artists' that got you where you are by then replacing their assets with better ones.
That's kinda what I meant. Get people to make you Placeholder artwork, but make sure they know it probably wont be used in the final product.
Do this.
Kenny had the right idea with his personal project, he contracted Marko Djurdgevic to concept his main characters and the concepts were so awesome he had artists coming out of the woodwork offering to do the character art.
but i would be glad to help you in my spare time which is not much.
i have also offered to someone else too. it really depends who will ask me fisrt.
it's not that i'm such a great catch but my time is too limited to help you both
i like weird creatures and fantasy worlds, as well as knights and armours and orcs and spaceships and ...anything fantasy, i like it
check my thread here:
http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=71175
if you think that i could help you with anything feel free to pm.
i don't care about money i have a job and i am getting paid.
i'm doing it out of love
creationtwentytwo : Please stop doling out bad advice when you don't know what you're talking about.
For fucks sake PererK I think Muzz covered this... and Vrav hammered it home with a decent explanation. Don't you think it was completely and utterly unnecessary to just jump on the 'let's lay into the amateurs' bandwagon? Or do you get a kick from just copying something others have said just to make yourself feel superior to those with little to no experience?
I wasn't gonna get into it but I think if you actually read my posts I didn't give out any advice. I didn't 'advise' the OP to do or not do anything, I just gave my opinion on what he was asking in all cases. Now my opinion may be totally worthless, and I apologize for that, but I would never think to actually advise someone on what to do because of course I know I have zero experience and would just be wasting both my time, and the OP's.
Another thing is that while I may have no experience in the games industry, you know nothing about my employment background and what experience I may have in other sectors. Working in Architecture, I have dealt with plenty of high end schemes, and been pitched very ambitious ideas from clients with suspicious financial plans. I've supplied work which I've never been paid for on more than one occasion and I deal with people looking to get cheap labour without understanding the workload involved on almost a daily basis. As I said, not game industry experience but some of the principles are very similar.
I hold my hands up man, I am in no place whatsoever to give advice, and I take back what I said, geez.
I don't have an industry job myself, I'm nearing the end of school, but i'm in the nearly the same boat you are, anomandarius. I'm putting together an art team for a mod i'll be working on and i'm totally stoked with the guys I have lined up. None of them are "professionals" but they're talented guys at the end of their school career, a couple of them have actaully graduated and have jobs. These are the kind of guys you gotta look out for, right out of school, or just getting to the point that they're looking for work and they have more than enough artistic energy to do what they need to do like building a portfolio as well as a side project. Another major reason i was able to get some good artists is the artistic style we're going for is very applicable to the industry. Working on this mod, wether it fails or not, is beneficial to everyone building their portfolios.
I guess what i'm trying to say, is look at it from the artist's point of view. These guys spend months working on art they know is going to be thrown into a portfolio that's not going to do anything other than get them a job. These guys would LOVE to be part of a team working for something greater, that's why they're in this to begin with. But you need to understand, most everyone at this point is in this for themselves. They need their portfolio pieces just as you need your awesome "game". Be willing to make concessions. Besides they're artists, they know what's going to sell a visual style anyway!
P.S.
When you're ready the pimping and previews section is a great place to snoop around and maybe recruit some raw talent.
My last post articulated would lay out some specific and god willing insightful flaws in your comments to the requester.
I think the reason some people here may have been "rubbed the wrong way" by you, myself included, is that you've "burst" onto the scene and are in danger of "plianging" it up ( i.e. posting what you think about everything all the time-no-matter-what-no-matter-where-no-matter-who).
Now, please note that I personally LOVE PLIANG'S BALD HEAD and wonderful tie collection; so I mostly poke him in jest. I'd like to do the same with you because I think your user icon is funny as hell and you're generally a nice fellow; but in the meantime, stop spamming the forum my lovely
Mind you, if either of you are interested in game biz information, art information/techniques, how to run a game team, so on, you're more than welcome to PM me any specific questions.
You're right though I guess, I've only been a member of PC for a short time and it looks like I've chalkedup a fair few posts, some of which have indeed been of the opinionated, 'nose where it's not wanted' variety. I'll take a back seat from now on with the discussions that don't concern me!
Thanks again.
and crazy it wasnt a situation of "let the experienced people talk" it was more of the fact that creationtwentytwo (be it on purpose or not, clearly not after his last few posts) did come off as if he knew from first hand experience and was the authroity on the subject.
water under the bridge now though for everyone hopefully
~ QUOTED FOR ITS SEVERE TRUTH.
I went GDC last month, and me and my friend met the some great artists from naughty dog, blue castele, and art directors from places like insomniac games, and even animators that worked on things like arkham asylum.
many had one thing in common: they had a great dislike for someone we knew that appeared on online forums. None of them had ever met him, but the mere mention of him pissed them off. I'm not going to call the person out, but be very very careful how you portray yourself online. Even if your a great artist (and this person im using as an example IS good), you don't want your online persona to precede you. You'd be amazed who knows you exist.
Hang on though, I need to make sure there's room in my inbox.
Am i the only one that enjoys when someone shoots their mouth off and crashes and burns in a giant blaze of stupidity? That's always been part of the draw of polycount for me, a bunch of guys clowning around about game art. I'm not singling anyone out, hell I'm half inclined to think I'm the guy Dreamer's talking about.
I'm not exactly sure what i'm getting at here, and sorry for derailing this thread. Just seems every month the mentality is to "behave" more and more. You see less and less interesting posts and overall the site just kinda seems to be withering as a result of all this... Or maybe this is just all a sign of the times. Everyone's growing up, has a paycheck, these online communities have been supplanted by the company work environment. Bah, I'm going to shut up before i dig myself any deeper.
Still enjoy the forum, maybe i'm just thinking too deep into all this stuff and need to start making more art :P