Hmm you think a class action suit filed by Blockbuster Gamecrazy game rental and Games Stop used games is in da works? Or just a matter of time?
What could they sue over? New media and forms of enjoying it are killing off old models all the time. Can newspapers sue blogs because they are ruining their subscriber rates?
What could they sue over? New media and forms of enjoying it are killing off old models all the time. Can newspapers sue blogs because they are ruining their subscriber rates?
Well, I'm sure you have seen the silly things companies do to one another when they feel threatened.
But your example isnt quite right. This isn't a conversion of a media. This is media with new "safe guards" that now would interfere with the business practices of others.
How many of you really have problems with internet access, rather than enjoying a nice strawman?
Why would I possibly want to play a game when my Internet is up? I can talk to friends, read forums, find reference for 3D models, and so on when I have Internet. It's the moments when it drops that I load up games.
Hmm you think a class action suit filed by Blockbuster Gamecrazy game rental and Games Stop used games is in da works? Or just a matter of time?
it's not secondhand games they are targeting, its piracy. its STILL PC-games, not console. Retailers want piracy do drop just as much as the developers.
What about online validation on game startup only?
BTW steam is not the dream solution either. I bought GTAIV pc off it over christmas, thinking I would benefit of the latest updates and great compatibility. Result : I had to launch the game through another launcher (Rockstar club something) and patch it manually. And still it started ONCE out of 4 tries.
Got Assassins Creed PC the same day for cheap. Crash to desktop after 10 minutes of play. Woooo! I think there are a few other issues related to PC gaming to be solved before switching to crazy protection systems!
I love how ubisoft's auth server went down recently. I bet their customers love not being able to play the game they bought. Certainly didn't take this long to happen...
BTW steam is not the dream solution either. I bought GTAIV pc off it over christmas...
I also got gta4 from steam at Christmas and had a lot of problems getting it started, but in fairness, that problem is most likely due to the stupid RGSC thing instead of Steam.
How would that be more instantly cracked that constant online validation ? It could very well include a small download using a completely new authorization paradigm every week or so... no?
I also got gta4 from steam at Christmas and had a lot of problems getting it started, but in fairness, that problem is most likely due to the stupid RGSC thing instead of Steam.
Yep, not really steam/valve's fault. Shit gets real when a second layer of protection is forced on top of steam. Every other game was smooth sailing, especially my copy of Mass Effect 2
pior: because once its cracked, its cracked forever. Pirates wont notice if you have a new paradigm next week, cause they have already patched away the online authentication. Basically, that is what many games have now as DRM. Being online constantly is very different.
True I guess!!
It's funny too, I'm okay with always on activation for games I purchased online. But as soon as it comes in a retail box but still requires that ... it just feels wrong somehow? I remember being unable to play HL2 for years because of that - even the demo required Steam and I simply had no connection at all.
Entity - to me that indeed proves that Steam is not yet what it could be. As an end user I don't need to know nor care about who is to blame for the defect - all I know is that a game I bought off this online platform, simply doesn't work. As a matter of fact it's pretty bad that this extra crap launcher thingie is not even mentioned anywhere on the purchase page. If I had known this shit was there this would have been an instead dealbreaker.
True I guess!!
It's funny too, I'm okay with always on activation for games I purchased online. But as soon as it comes in a retail box but still requires that ... it just feels wrong somehow? I remember being unable to play HL2 for years because of that - even the demo required Steam and I simply had no connection at all.
Entity - to me that indeed proves that Steam is not yet what it could be. As an end user I don't need to know nor care about who is to blame for the defect - all I know is that a game I bought off this online platform, simply doesn't work. As a matter of fact it's pretty bad that this extra crap launcher thingie is not even mentioned anywhere on the purchase page. If I had known this shit was there this would have been an instead dealbreaker.
Do you blame the manufacturer or the reseller I guess Pior? Thats what in effect you are saying. They do mention on the requirements pages any extra notification/hoop jumping that needs to be done. You still would have ended up with the same issue. Just not steam inbetween.
I had an issue with a game I bought off steam where it would reboot my machine. It was an older Ubisoft game that was sold basically as is. It had never been patched or fixed for the numerous bugs that had been found. I can see blaming Steam partially in that they allowed this. At the same time, Valve is making games, not QA'ing to make sure a company putting their backlog of older games actually works. Its not their job per say. I can see your stance Pior, but more, I blame Ubisoft for putting a game on Steam with problems known and not having any support . So you should more than Valve, be blaming Rockstar.
Again, this is why IMO if consumers are going to mistakenly blame Valve. They should require any company that wants their product on steam to use the steam system versus allowing the individual publishers wants.
Well sure Valve is making games, but also makes Steam, a completely different thing requiring support as well.
But the average customer does not know that, and that's what matters! I think its cool that they are pioneering and leading the online purchase market, but its not there yet.
BTW speaking of online models, GoG is quite something! Try it out guys its a goldmine!
I am also very intrigued by the new tech David Perry is putting together - user inputs streamed to a server, and gameplay video streamed back to the player, meaning no need for hardware updates to play the latest games!! Obviously the video part of it is quite a big thing to accomplish, but instant online streaming of control inputs is already a reality, even for the most demanding twitch games (streetfighter3 TS over GGPO - certainly the most demanding kind of title in terms of input timing).
That would be the ultimate pirate protection for sure...
The be online play requirement only works until the pirates figure out how to trick the game into thinking it's online, that's all they have to do. Once they do the only ones that suffer are paying customers. Internet goes out for whatever reason I can't play my game. You get the problem? I paid for a game, a single player game. I expect to be able to play it whenever I want. That is what we, who are against this crappy drm are saying. Not only did we have to put up with the time to install the game, but now this. Oh their server goes down tooo! Are you kidding. Nice system. If you want to lose customers just keep doing things like that. Then turn around and blame it on the pirates! How many copies did Starcraft, Warcraft 3, Doom 3 sell? These games were pirated a lot correct. My point is they made money.
The reality is paying customers won't go download games either because it's hard, it takes a long time and it's risky. How about you guys get your tech monkies to spam torrent sites and comment how they got viruses on the torrent or comment how there is some tracking system in the drm and scare off people who would pirate the game. Use propaganda, it worked in the war. If it seems like it's too much of a hassle to download a game then more kids that cant' afford the game to buy it might not bother and just buy it once the price goes down.
The be online play requirement only works until the pirates figure out how to trick the game into thinking it's online, that's all they have to do. Once they do the only ones that suffer are paying customers. Internet goes out for whatever reason I can't play my game. You get the problem? I paid for a game, a single player game. I expect to be able to play it whenever I want. That is what we, who are against this crappy drm are saying. Not only did we have to put up with the time to install the game, but now this. Oh their server goes down tooo! Are you kidding. Nice system. If you want to lose customers just keep doing things like that. Then turn around and blame it on the pirates! How many copies did Starcraft, Warcraft 3, Doom 3 sell? These games were pirated a lot correct. My point is they made money.
.
You're assuming that's all the game uses the online portion for, is to check if it's online. If it needs input back from the server, the pirate fake server would have to emulate that. That's a lot more difficult than just saying, YOU ARE ONLINE PROGRAM.
" you have xbox whit XNA making big profits in indie community" XNA games don't turn a big profit. I think there has been two games sofar that has pulled in more than 5000 $ :P
I made a game with Zombies came out near the end of the year. $112,000.
No one saw that coming? Tell me that didn't come up in a meeting? Even before I got down to Snefers post I thought, "if you can't crack, attack".
This happened to Gas Powered a year ago, you even have a case to study and they still fuck it up. It makes me feel better their crack team is on the job... I'm on your side Ubi but you're not thinking 3 steps down the road.
Sometimes its about power, and Ubi tried to unrest it from the pirates, they won't take that sitting down.
Again, path of least resistance, this is not it. But its the only path so customers MUST suffer it, for now. But as soon as something easier comes out more people are going to stop paying, or worse stop playing all together.
There isn't a pirate copy out, yet. Awesome, its doing its job.
No one can play, everyone is pissed off. Problem.
It's pretty frustrating to be a PC gamer even before you get to the DRM. First there are the system specs which are normally a lie and need to be doubled before a game can be enjoyed (yes talking about min and rec). Normally because they decided to include some unnecessary effect in a real-time cinematic or they didn't have time to do a scalable game for the non-bleeding edge gamers. For those that make it through, they are met with this new brick wall.
According to past cracks "crack the DRM you've cracked all the games, they need new DRM" so then it only helped in those few weeks that they pissed off all the loyal customers trying to do the right thing? Do they stay loyal or do they harbor that frustration and sit on it until its time to make another purchase. Then next time they'll wait for the crack. PC gamers are used to waiting anyway they always fuck around with the release dates and delay the PC titles, thanks to their little war... again.
Innocent law abiding customers caught in the cross fire unable to play games, this is a problem. The more civilians you injure the more pirates you make, or worse you drive them out of our industry and turn them off to playing. Get the laws changed go after their distribution networks and take the fight to the pirates.
Stop using the paying customers as guinea pigs and proxy soldiers.
The next part are the Ransom threats of a continuous organized DNS attack unless they pay up to foreign accounts.
Soo,, Ubisoft has to spend much more to hire experienced Administrators and security experts. As well as more robust bandwidth and networks. The cost eventually goes up for the games. Not because of the piracy. Because of the above.
ofc they saw it coming, but there is not very much to do against attacks like that. But I think the media is extremely biased in this case. The longest wait to get into the game was approx 30 minutes, and how long do you have to wait for a game of BF:BC2 when the servers go on the fritz? Or when they went down entirely? I dont see a public outcry about that :P
Take the fight to the pirates you say? Kind of hard, since the goverment dictates the laws, and the pirates ARE the people. Here in sweden almost no one dared to step up against the pirates. Stepping up against the pirates meant MASSIVE harassment, threats, etc. That is how we got a party of freeloaders big enough to be a serious force to be reckoned with. No one can stand up against them, since people get pissed when you want to take away their free games/music/games. And it's not like the film/music industry have been opting for harder laws, meeting enormous resistance for every step.
oXYnary: the DRM is attacked by pirates, who wants to break it, so they can pirate it. The DRM is there to protect against piracy first and foremost. How is this not because of piracy?
Fact remains: without pirates: no DRM. Massive piracy: DRM.
oXYnary: the DRM is attacked by pirates, who wants to break it, so they can pirate it. The DRM is there to protect against piracy first and foremost. How is this not because of piracy?
I think you miss understand. The Pirates I refer to are organized web criminal rings. Whom have botnets of computers they can control for an attack. Not the Pirate hackers whom are pissed and use the DNS attack to make a point. The criminals/mob types basically threaten companies with attacks unless they get paid. Not because they are "game pirates", more because they see that Ubisoft requires these to be 24/7 and constantly up.. Mission critical.
I admit most times they go after smaller companies whom they can bully easier. But I still can see it happening here.
Now. The question I present. The added cost of keeping these servers up 24/7 to even play single player games. Does the reduced piracy offset the new cost this adds to a companies revenue? Adding in again, the upkeep and having to constantly stay ones step ahead of the criminal organizations. Personally, I don't think it does, but I have no data to back that up one way or another other than my own experiences working in a Noc and seeing DDoS first hand.
Yeah, and I guess that is a question that will be properly answered when the sales-figures drop in. Time will tell I suppose. Pirates and people defending them makes me sad.
The public in general. And many of the issues with DRM are just waiting for a new answer. There is no way without DRM that even remotely works against piracy, this has been proven time after time, and still people keep coming with the same arguments.
I think you have one pirate type. A whiny bitch that wants everything for free.
I stopped respecting your opinion right here. You put on a pretty good show though, for the entire thread up to this post I thought you might have known what you were talking about (despite the lack of any facts to back up your points).
ofc they saw it coming, but there is not very much to do against attacks like that.
IF they saw it coming then they knew it would effect them this way and they've failed to address the issue. Ignore it and hope it goes ok, isn't proper planning. If they can't combat the hardware problem then they needed to be prepared for the PR nightmare which is why they attacked... So far they're caught with their pants around their ankles.
But I think the media is extremely biased in this case. The longest wait to get into the game was approx 30 minutes, and how long do you have to wait for a game of BF:BC2 when the servers go on the fritz? Or when they went down entirely? I dont see a public outcry about that :P
This would be why some people like single player games, no online assholes to deal with, no remote hardware to interact with.
Take the fight to the pirates you say? Kind of hard, since the goverment dictates the laws, and the pirates ARE the people. Here in sweden almost no one dared to step up against the pirates. Stepping up against the pirates meant MASSIVE harassment, threats, etc. That is how we got a party of freeloaders big enough to be a serious force to be reckoned with. No one can stand up against them, since people get pissed when you want to take away their free games/music/games.
I seem to remember the gov won, the pirates where jailed and they had massive fines to pay. They didn't succeed in shutting down the site because that wasn't their goal. If its a PR nightmare they fear, then this doesn't seem like the way to garner support...
And it's not like the film/music industry have been opting for harder laws, meeting enormous resistance for every step.
Music Piracy is pretty much solved or at least been minimized to the point people can turn a profit. Apple did it right, they gave people a path of least resistance. I'm not saying itunes for games is the key (that was the solution for music going digital, game have always been digital) but a solution like that need to be found. First one that does is fuckin rich. What they're doing now isn't it.
The DRM is attacked by pirates, who wants to break it, so they can pirate it. The DRM is there to protect against piracy first and foremost. How is this not because of piracy?
It's not protecting, if they aren't playing. This is because the pirates are on a power trip. Ubi stood up and the pirates what to put them back in line. The attack probably isn't about breaking the DRM, its about making a PR nightmare for Ubi. It's sad that they saw it coming and did nothing to combat it, even on the PR side. They went from offensive right back to defensive really quick. Sadly Ubi will probably have to blink and slink away to fight another day, since they didn't put anything in motion to combat this.
They didn't win, they escalated it. When that happens you always have to wait and see what the other side does. It's up to you Ubi, do you give up and live to fight another day learning your lesson about proper planning and in doing so let the pirates win this round. Or do you drag this out and make it a worse PR nightmare than it already is?
It doesn't really matter who attacked the servers, or that the servers were attacked at all. At the end of the day, servers were down and paying customers got a big f*ck you from ubisoft.
I stopped respecting your opinion right here. You put on a pretty good show though, for the entire thread up to this post I thought you might have known what you were talking about (despite the lack of any facts to back up your points).
What facts can't I back up? Statistics about piracy? Also, I don't understand what is wrong with that opinion of pirates. What other reason is there to pirate? It's not like its a political statement. Sticking it to the man, etc etc. People usually list a number of reasons for pirating, most of them sound good in theory but they don't hold up when you look at what is actually happening. Like try-before-you-by. Cracking legal copies to remove DRM. Those are two of the most common arguments, and neither hold up when you look at the statistics. People pirate cause they want stuff for free. And they get REALLY angry when you take away that "right".
DRM is still stupid, instead of trying to deny pirates the focus should be on promoting sales.
DLC, achievements, other incentives to play the game that pirates don't get to benefit from.
Or alternatively fight poison with poison. Introduce a risk to being a pirate, because right now, there really isn't. People can safely download pretty much anything and be certain that there will be no consequences at all. I won't elaborate on this idea but I'm sure you can assume what I mean.
If the goal is to prevent people from playing your game for free, then this trick could work. But if the goal is to boost sales then it will hardly be worth it, you're just denying them the fun of trying your game. The majority of pirates won't buy the game anyway. Sure they don't "deserve" to play it, but if the alternative is not playing it at all then why deny them from enjoying your work?
Its more publicity for the game and the company at least and saves time and money designing and implementing all these fancy DRM stuff - not to mention the bad press games and companies get from having stupid DRM.
So yea... promote sales instead of deterring pirates. Its the path of least resistance.
And for those pirates who do it to try games that dont have a demo available, its simple, give them a demo. Every game should have one, especially "AAA" ones. Providing demos is another method of promoting sales~
"The majority of pirates won't buy the game anyway. " are you sure? It's kind of hard to tell since we simply don't know. If people knew a game would not have a pirate version, how many would buy it then? We simply don't know that yet.
"And for those pirates who do it to try games that dont have a demo available, its simple, give them a demo. Every game should have one, especially "AAA" ones. Providing demos is another method of promoting sales~"
Part of the problem there is that try-before-you-buy is just a fancy argument for pirates to justify pirating a game "i was just trying it, not gonna buy it anyway" regardless of if they like it or not. Heard it countless times as an argument, even when talking about games that do have a demo.
Modern Warfare 2, apparently, was the most pirated game of 2009. It also brought in over a billion dollars in sales. I don´t think profit depends on low piracy rates.
Then again, considering the outcry against MW2´s lack of dedicated servers, profit doesn´t seem to depend on building a relationship with your customers either.
Show me these statistics. I have never seen any studies that show this.
Well, if a game have 90% piracy (average number for a PC title) and everyone who bought that game cracked it to remove the DRM, the piracy is still 80%. As for the try-before-you-buy statistics, in one of the piracy articles linked earlier, a game company (don't remember the name) kept track of who on their scoreboards etc who where playing a pirate copy and who were playing a legal copy. The didnt have a single user bying the game after playing the pirate version. Not even the ones on the scoreboards, who were evidentaly enjoying the game very much. Also I have seen internal statistics that show another aspect of try-before-buy piracy. Pirates have the same completion rate in games as legal customers.
Zwebbie: And how many of those 15 million copies were on the PC? Also, using one of the best-selling games of all time as an example doesn't really help. Ofcourse they turned a profit. How stupid of every other game developer... they should just make a game like that and problem is solved.
Snefer: Even if coupling games with such harmful DRM is a way to stay afloat (which is debatable), it is not the only way. It's also not a very moral way, to restrict access to games to paying customers, and that's why I won't support it.
I hate pirates as much as you do, but I refuse to become the victim of the battle that the pirates and publishers have decided to fight. I buy my games from people who have me in the back of their mind, not a bunch of pirates.
We've had a bunch of games now that have had ridiculous DRM like this. I can't recall any of them being marvelous success stories because of it.
Yeah, I'm not very fond of DRM myself. I'm mostly looking at this from a developers perspective, which in the long run is good for PC gamers aswell. There are alot of "if"s. We dont know the conversion rate of pirates. If the conversionrate of pirates is 10%, we will double sales on PC, if sales on PC would soar without piracy, then PC gaming is on the rise again, and WILL spawn more PC-titles, better ports, etc. That is what I hope for.
I see this as a very interesting experiment on piracy and versus sales. PC game quality is declining (due to focus on console development) and is dying as it is, there is a lot of pc gamers with good internet and pcs that are not buying their games for whatever reason. I think the drm has proven being very tough for both silent 5 and ac2 for the pirates altough no one is saying they will never get working cracks.
VIG you cannot do anything against such an attack, its impossible to do anything when you are trying to launch what seems so far to become a pretty awesome service. My friend was playing games fine with his computer hooked up to his crappy mobile phone internet, no problem at all. I think its been a pretty impressive launch from Ubisoft so far.
I have learned a lot more about people on the internet and news sites spreading false information than what I really wanted but its an interesting ride. Destination unknown.
1. I have no problem with drm - in a way it is required, yet at the same time it isn't. Yes drm gets cracked all the time, sometimes the drm is just fooled into believing something that is false.
Oblivion had zero drm - it only required the disk to be in to start the game - and it was hugely successful. I could've copied the game off a friend, but i went out and paid the full retail price. A pirate pirates a game regardless if he has the money, or if the store is nearby - pirates are just not seriously about the industry, or the games they play, they play, then toss it aside.
Arma2, and ofp, have really good drm - fade - i haven't heard of it being cracked yet(correct me if i'm wrong), all you need to avoid fade activating is an original serial.
2. I don't think it is correct to say this is from the developers point of view - this is my opinion, there is no fact to back this up - you would have to ask a dev his opinion(that worked on the titles).
I think this is more of a publishers point of view, as you have to remember that the publisher makes a lot the decisions.
3. I believe that EA has it right, release dlc for loyal customers - and if u are a serious gamer(not read leet - just someone who values a good gaming experience) you will buy the game. I pirate wouldn't, they just want something to play and toss away.
Another nice thing they are doing with battlefield - your serial key is linked to an online login - i can see this possibly working for singleplayer games, everyone has internet, but you would only require a single login upon game startup. Then you can disconnect - and this can easily be done using the internet connection on ones cell phone - once it's in, pull the plug.
I barely have broadband, so i stay away from games that require constant connection - especially for single player. As i already have to monitor my usage very heavily.
In SA we have very limited capping, and limited speed(hopefully both will increase with the world cup)
VIG you cannot do anything against such an attack, its impossible to do anything when you are trying to launch what seems so far to become a pretty awesome service.
I agree its hard to defend against. Soo... maybe building a system around an obvious weakness isn't a good idea?
um, not to promote piracy, but isn't an online heartbeat thing kinda.. simpler to crack than local DRM? I mean packet sniffer, a few legit copies, and a PC acting as a proxy server and you could just create an authorization program to run on a local machine (the proxy server), and have it route all packets destined for the online auth server to a port on the proxy where that app listens and answer with 'OK" repeatedly? I'm sure the actual encryption and heartbeat method are convoluted by necessity, but it sounds like just the thing a net and code savvy set of hackers would find as "Finally some FUN!" to crack.
I am all against piracy of games but having to be able to be on-line to play your games is ridiculous (it's almost like they are mimicking wow but you don't have to pay to play, yet!).
If something were to happen to let's say your net line or you wanted to bring your system over to a friends house to kill sometime but he doesn't have Internet or limited Internet your screwed (I for one don't like the idea).
I remember the good old days, packing your system into a schoolbag or duffel to bring to my cousins house, those days are long gone.
Damn Game Pirates! :poly127:
Yeah thats exactly how Battle.net 2.0 is going to be, starting with WoW and StarCraft II, then Diablo III and future Blizzard games. I also heard the older "legacy" Blizzard titles may also transfer to the new Battle.net later.
Replies
What could they sue over? New media and forms of enjoying it are killing off old models all the time. Can newspapers sue blogs because they are ruining their subscriber rates?
Well, I'm sure you have seen the silly things companies do to one another when they feel threatened.
But your example isnt quite right. This isn't a conversion of a media. This is media with new "safe guards" that now would interfere with the business practices of others.
it's not secondhand games they are targeting, its piracy. its STILL PC-games, not console. Retailers want piracy do drop just as much as the developers.
Steam allows you to play offline. You just have to install the games first, there's some games that don't allow offline play for some reason.
BTW steam is not the dream solution either. I bought GTAIV pc off it over christmas, thinking I would benefit of the latest updates and great compatibility. Result : I had to launch the game through another launcher (Rockstar club something) and patch it manually. And still it started ONCE out of 4 tries.
Got Assassins Creed PC the same day for cheap. Crash to desktop after 10 minutes of play. Woooo! I think there are a few other issues related to PC gaming to be solved before switching to crazy protection systems!
I also got gta4 from steam at Christmas and had a lot of problems getting it started, but in fairness, that problem is most likely due to the stupid RGSC thing instead of Steam.
Yep, not really steam/valve's fault. Shit gets real when a second layer of protection is forced on top of steam. Every other game was smooth sailing, especially my copy of Mass Effect 2
It's funny too, I'm okay with always on activation for games I purchased online. But as soon as it comes in a retail box but still requires that ... it just feels wrong somehow? I remember being unable to play HL2 for years because of that - even the demo required Steam and I simply had no connection at all.
Entity - to me that indeed proves that Steam is not yet what it could be. As an end user I don't need to know nor care about who is to blame for the defect - all I know is that a game I bought off this online platform, simply doesn't work. As a matter of fact it's pretty bad that this extra crap launcher thingie is not even mentioned anywhere on the purchase page. If I had known this shit was there this would have been an instead dealbreaker.
Do you blame the manufacturer or the reseller I guess Pior? Thats what in effect you are saying. They do mention on the requirements pages any extra notification/hoop jumping that needs to be done. You still would have ended up with the same issue. Just not steam inbetween.
I had an issue with a game I bought off steam where it would reboot my machine. It was an older Ubisoft game that was sold basically as is. It had never been patched or fixed for the numerous bugs that had been found. I can see blaming Steam partially in that they allowed this. At the same time, Valve is making games, not QA'ing to make sure a company putting their backlog of older games actually works. Its not their job per say. I can see your stance Pior, but more, I blame Ubisoft for putting a game on Steam with problems known and not having any support . So you should more than Valve, be blaming Rockstar.
Again, this is why IMO if consumers are going to mistakenly blame Valve. They should require any company that wants their product on steam to use the steam system versus allowing the individual publishers wants.
But the average customer does not know that, and that's what matters! I think its cool that they are pioneering and leading the online purchase market, but its not there yet.
BTW speaking of online models, GoG is quite something! Try it out guys its a goldmine!
I am also very intrigued by the new tech David Perry is putting together - user inputs streamed to a server, and gameplay video streamed back to the player, meaning no need for hardware updates to play the latest games!! Obviously the video part of it is quite a big thing to accomplish, but instant online streaming of control inputs is already a reality, even for the most demanding twitch games (streetfighter3 TS over GGPO - certainly the most demanding kind of title in terms of input timing).
That would be the ultimate pirate protection for sure...
The reality is paying customers won't go download games either because it's hard, it takes a long time and it's risky. How about you guys get your tech monkies to spam torrent sites and comment how they got viruses on the torrent or comment how there is some tracking system in the drm and scare off people who would pirate the game. Use propaganda, it worked in the war. If it seems like it's too much of a hassle to download a game then more kids that cant' afford the game to buy it might not bother and just buy it once the price goes down.
You're assuming that's all the game uses the online portion for, is to check if it's online. If it needs input back from the server, the pirate fake server would have to emulate that. That's a lot more difficult than just saying, YOU ARE ONLINE PROGRAM.
but if it takes a week instead of a day to reverse-engineer it, then thats a win for the companies I guess.
http://kotaku.com/5456703/no-1-xbox-live-indie-game-made-six-figures
http://www.gamerbytes.com/2010/01/indepth_xbox_live_indie_games.php
yeah, i mixed up the terms, xbla, xna, and then that other thing, whatiscalled? xnasdas something
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/03/08/ubisofts-drm-servers-broken-all-day/#more-26585
I commend them on trying but they have no hope in stopping piracy.
http://www.incgamers.com/News/21338/
This happened to Gas Powered a year ago, you even have a case to study and they still fuck it up. It makes me feel better their crack team is on the job... I'm on your side Ubi but you're not thinking 3 steps down the road.
Sometimes its about power, and Ubi tried to unrest it from the pirates, they won't take that sitting down.
Again, path of least resistance, this is not it. But its the only path so customers MUST suffer it, for now. But as soon as something easier comes out more people are going to stop paying, or worse stop playing all together.
There isn't a pirate copy out, yet. Awesome, its doing its job.
No one can play, everyone is pissed off. Problem.
It's pretty frustrating to be a PC gamer even before you get to the DRM. First there are the system specs which are normally a lie and need to be doubled before a game can be enjoyed (yes talking about min and rec). Normally because they decided to include some unnecessary effect in a real-time cinematic or they didn't have time to do a scalable game for the non-bleeding edge gamers. For those that make it through, they are met with this new brick wall.
According to past cracks "crack the DRM you've cracked all the games, they need new DRM" so then it only helped in those few weeks that they pissed off all the loyal customers trying to do the right thing? Do they stay loyal or do they harbor that frustration and sit on it until its time to make another purchase. Then next time they'll wait for the crack. PC gamers are used to waiting anyway they always fuck around with the release dates and delay the PC titles, thanks to their little war... again.
Innocent law abiding customers caught in the cross fire unable to play games, this is a problem. The more civilians you injure the more pirates you make, or worse you drive them out of our industry and turn them off to playing. Get the laws changed go after their distribution networks and take the fight to the pirates.
Stop using the paying customers as guinea pigs and proxy soldiers.
Heh. Just like Vig, I was expecting this.
The next part are the Ransom threats of a continuous organized DNS attack unless they pay up to foreign accounts.
Soo,, Ubisoft has to spend much more to hire experienced Administrators and security experts. As well as more robust bandwidth and networks. The cost eventually goes up for the games. Not because of the piracy. Because of the above.
Take the fight to the pirates you say? Kind of hard, since the goverment dictates the laws, and the pirates ARE the people. Here in sweden almost no one dared to step up against the pirates. Stepping up against the pirates meant MASSIVE harassment, threats, etc. That is how we got a party of freeloaders big enough to be a serious force to be reckoned with. No one can stand up against them, since people get pissed when you want to take away their free games/music/games. And it's not like the film/music industry have been opting for harder laws, meeting enormous resistance for every step.
oXYnary: the DRM is attacked by pirates, who wants to break it, so they can pirate it. The DRM is there to protect against piracy first and foremost. How is this not because of piracy?
Fact remains: without pirates: no DRM. Massive piracy: DRM.
I think you miss understand. The Pirates I refer to are organized web criminal rings. Whom have botnets of computers they can control for an attack. Not the Pirate hackers whom are pissed and use the DNS attack to make a point. The criminals/mob types basically threaten companies with attacks unless they get paid. Not because they are "game pirates", more because they see that Ubisoft requires these to be 24/7 and constantly up.. Mission critical.
I admit most times they go after smaller companies whom they can bully easier. But I still can see it happening here.
http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/42289
Now. The question I present. The added cost of keeping these servers up 24/7 to even play single player games. Does the reduced piracy offset the new cost this adds to a companies revenue? Adding in again, the upkeep and having to constantly stay ones step ahead of the criminal organizations. Personally, I don't think it does, but I have no data to back that up one way or another other than my own experiences working in a Noc and seeing DDoS first hand.
I stopped respecting your opinion right here. You put on a pretty good show though, for the entire thread up to this post I thought you might have known what you were talking about (despite the lack of any facts to back up your points).
Ubi: |
Pirates: ||
Balls in your court Ubi.
This would be why some people like single player games, no online assholes to deal with, no remote hardware to interact with.
I seem to remember the gov won, the pirates where jailed and they had massive fines to pay. They didn't succeed in shutting down the site because that wasn't their goal. If its a PR nightmare they fear, then this doesn't seem like the way to garner support...
Music Piracy is pretty much solved or at least been minimized to the point people can turn a profit. Apple did it right, they gave people a path of least resistance. I'm not saying itunes for games is the key (that was the solution for music going digital, game have always been digital) but a solution like that need to be found. First one that does is fuckin rich. What they're doing now isn't it.
It's not protecting, if they aren't playing. This is because the pirates are on a power trip. Ubi stood up and the pirates what to put them back in line. The attack probably isn't about breaking the DRM, its about making a PR nightmare for Ubi. It's sad that they saw it coming and did nothing to combat it, even on the PR side. They went from offensive right back to defensive really quick. Sadly Ubi will probably have to blink and slink away to fight another day, since they didn't put anything in motion to combat this.
They didn't win, they escalated it. When that happens you always have to wait and see what the other side does. It's up to you Ubi, do you give up and live to fight another day learning your lesson about proper planning and in doing so let the pirates win this round. Or do you drag this out and make it a worse PR nightmare than it already is?
DRM done wrong: massively upset paying customers.
Who's defending piracy? If you're not with Ubi's ill thought out plan then you must be pro piracy?
What facts can't I back up? Statistics about piracy? Also, I don't understand what is wrong with that opinion of pirates. What other reason is there to pirate? It's not like its a political statement. Sticking it to the man, etc etc. People usually list a number of reasons for pirating, most of them sound good in theory but they don't hold up when you look at what is actually happening. Like try-before-you-by. Cracking legal copies to remove DRM. Those are two of the most common arguments, and neither hold up when you look at the statistics. People pirate cause they want stuff for free. And they get REALLY angry when you take away that "right".
DLC, achievements, other incentives to play the game that pirates don't get to benefit from.
Or alternatively fight poison with poison. Introduce a risk to being a pirate, because right now, there really isn't. People can safely download pretty much anything and be certain that there will be no consequences at all. I won't elaborate on this idea but I'm sure you can assume what I mean.
If the goal is to prevent people from playing your game for free, then this trick could work. But if the goal is to boost sales then it will hardly be worth it, you're just denying them the fun of trying your game. The majority of pirates won't buy the game anyway. Sure they don't "deserve" to play it, but if the alternative is not playing it at all then why deny them from enjoying your work?
Its more publicity for the game and the company at least and saves time and money designing and implementing all these fancy DRM stuff - not to mention the bad press games and companies get from having stupid DRM.
So yea... promote sales instead of deterring pirates. Its the path of least resistance.
And for those pirates who do it to try games that dont have a demo available, its simple, give them a demo. Every game should have one, especially "AAA" ones. Providing demos is another method of promoting sales~
"And for those pirates who do it to try games that dont have a demo available, its simple, give them a demo. Every game should have one, especially "AAA" ones. Providing demos is another method of promoting sales~"
Part of the problem there is that try-before-you-buy is just a fancy argument for pirates to justify pirating a game "i was just trying it, not gonna buy it anyway" regardless of if they like it or not. Heard it countless times as an argument, even when talking about games that do have a demo.
Then again, considering the outcry against MW2´s lack of dedicated servers, profit doesn´t seem to depend on building a relationship with your customers either.
It´s all in the marketing, probably.
Well, if a game have 90% piracy (average number for a PC title) and everyone who bought that game cracked it to remove the DRM, the piracy is still 80%. As for the try-before-you-buy statistics, in one of the piracy articles linked earlier, a game company (don't remember the name) kept track of who on their scoreboards etc who where playing a pirate copy and who were playing a legal copy. The didnt have a single user bying the game after playing the pirate version. Not even the ones on the scoreboards, who were evidentaly enjoying the game very much. Also I have seen internal statistics that show another aspect of try-before-buy piracy. Pirates have the same completion rate in games as legal customers.
Zwebbie: And how many of those 15 million copies were on the PC? Also, using one of the best-selling games of all time as an example doesn't really help. Ofcourse they turned a profit. How stupid of every other game developer... they should just make a game like that and problem is solved.
I hate pirates as much as you do, but I refuse to become the victim of the battle that the pirates and publishers have decided to fight. I buy my games from people who have me in the back of their mind, not a bunch of pirates.
We've had a bunch of games now that have had ridiculous DRM like this. I can't recall any of them being marvelous success stories because of it.
VIG you cannot do anything against such an attack, its impossible to do anything when you are trying to launch what seems so far to become a pretty awesome service. My friend was playing games fine with his computer hooked up to his crappy mobile phone internet, no problem at all. I think its been a pretty impressive launch from Ubisoft so far.
I have learned a lot more about people on the internet and news sites spreading false information than what I really wanted but its an interesting ride. Destination unknown.
1. I have no problem with drm - in a way it is required, yet at the same time it isn't. Yes drm gets cracked all the time, sometimes the drm is just fooled into believing something that is false.
Oblivion had zero drm - it only required the disk to be in to start the game - and it was hugely successful. I could've copied the game off a friend, but i went out and paid the full retail price. A pirate pirates a game regardless if he has the money, or if the store is nearby - pirates are just not seriously about the industry, or the games they play, they play, then toss it aside.
Arma2, and ofp, have really good drm - fade - i haven't heard of it being cracked yet(correct me if i'm wrong), all you need to avoid fade activating is an original serial.
2. I don't think it is correct to say this is from the developers point of view - this is my opinion, there is no fact to back this up - you would have to ask a dev his opinion(that worked on the titles).
I think this is more of a publishers point of view, as you have to remember that the publisher makes a lot the decisions.
3. I believe that EA has it right, release dlc for loyal customers - and if u are a serious gamer(not read leet - just someone who values a good gaming experience) you will buy the game. I pirate wouldn't, they just want something to play and toss away.
Another nice thing they are doing with battlefield - your serial key is linked to an online login - i can see this possibly working for singleplayer games, everyone has internet, but you would only require a single login upon game startup. Then you can disconnect - and this can easily be done using the internet connection on ones cell phone - once it's in, pull the plug.
I barely have broadband, so i stay away from games that require constant connection - especially for single player. As i already have to monitor my usage very heavily.
In SA we have very limited capping, and limited speed(hopefully both will increase with the world cup)
[ame]
Also, as expected, Ubisofts verification servers have been attacked again with a DNS based method.
Yeah thats exactly how Battle.net 2.0 is going to be, starting with WoW and StarCraft II, then Diablo III and future Blizzard games. I also heard the older "legacy" Blizzard titles may also transfer to the new Battle.net later.