Advices needed: overdone muscular character
polycounter lvl 14
So here is my current Project:
So any helpful advice how to get this kind of character done is much appreciated.
Welcome dude! You're going to look a shit ton here compared to Deviantart!
For your current problem.. I'd honestly say you would be best off starting again and building your model up in all 3 dimensions! Extrude edges by shift dragging, but don't be afraid about working in the perspective viewport. You shouldnt need to work in such detail right away either. Build up the large shapes, then add in more edges to create more detail. Theres a great example of this earlier in WAYWO:
Thanks in advance, Mop!
THE 5 wrote:Hmmm... That .gif sequence already starts with a basic, body-like shape.
How should I possibly start? Creatign a 4x4x4 steps box and pulling it into the torsos shape? Or probably stat with a cylinder or cone without caps?
I still got some problems with edge-draging in perspective, the Max pivot tends to go creazy for me, movign at y = -9999.. when I drag in XY plane
Also most tutorials on the web only show how to create default human characters, I have never seen anythign abbout such overdone musculature.
After I would have formed the base shape and proboprtons how would I create the muscles while maintaining a natural edgeflow?
Can somebody provide wireframes or more of those (verry usefull) .gifs?
And another short question that I might post in the GD too:
Is it a good investion to purcase a space navigaror for polygonal modelling?
In CAD it's the hardware of choice, but how abbout modelling, does it help?
So any helpful advice how to get this kind of character done is much appreciated.
Replies
I'd suggest starting with cylinders for the torso, legs and arms, and cubes for the head, feet and hands (fingers will be cylinders). Just block in the shapes and keep the polycount low so you can figure out how to connect each piece to the other.
Remember, build up the shape...
More detail, less detail, shading, draft edgeloops... ?
Or better understandign of anatomy, is the anatomy wrong in this concept?
I would not like to use others concepts, since I got to practice that too.
Yet my problem remains finding a sufficient workflow for characers which are not covered with clothes or armour and got significant body structures.
I've seen a tutorial video where a head was built like that, forming the shilouette first. But im not shure if that is actualy a practical technique.
Yes, I stardet into details way to fast.
Forming a base shape first seems more relaible. Thanks
Edit: blocked try
any critical mistakes so far?
@ZacD
Still waiting for reply :S
To join objects together, go into the element part of the edit poly modifier and use the attach button to add one object to another. then you can weld verts or use bridge to connect edges.
You probably know half of these (or more!) but I just want to cover all the basics!
As for your concept - the clearer, more anatomically correct your concept, the better you're model. At the moment your own concept isn't the best 2d art, and if you follow it to the letter you're going to inherit the same problems in your model.
Of course you will probably want to make YOUR model, not someone elses concept. to get around this start stockpiling images from anything that reflects what you want to make. you might have a ton of pictures from comics and movies of a predators legs so when you come to modelling them, you can relax on your concept and match something more natural. (ha, predator, natural.)
Try hiding the ortho, and start blocking out again, now, thinking about the curve of the spine etc.
I know all of that, hehe
As I said in my other "Yet another newcomer" thread, I'm with max since 1 year now and I think I know most of the tools necessary.
I should realy have a basic understanding how to create a model, forming a base mesh was obvious but I hoped the traceing method would be faster.
If youre intrested how much I can do so far check these:
http://the-5.deviantart.com/art/1st-of-THE5-V1-0-151418861
http://the-5.deviantart.com/art/Pulse-Blaster-3-Parts-Render-137845413
http://the-5.deviantart.com/art/Revolver-three-parts-render-137639857
http://the-5.deviantart.com/art/Brotherguard-making-of-152063503
This concept is actualy only for illsutrating the proportions while modelling.
Most of the characters overall look is in my head.
I don't know if experiaced people create a concept thats 100% what they get later, im not good enougt jet to create such a concept im affraid.
As for stock images.
My "References" Folder on my disc so far contains 2,135 images sorted in 73 folders ;p Categorys from anatomy over weapons to animals and lanscapes.
Thanks for your help anyhow ;D
My problem in this case is realy onle the one:
I need tutorials, wireframes or gif sequences that illustrate the likes:
"how to form a upper arm out of a cylinder" and then aggain not like a natural biceps like a slight bump, a well defined, stilizised one.
Hard surface modelling and the tools ain't quite my problem.
I am completely shure several people in this community created such tutorials or can tell me of their experiance, I just wait for them to get here ;p
Originally your first mistake was when you made your reference planes, you didn't include a side profile, which you're continuing to do. You're having trouble getting depth out of your model because you have no depth markers. You have a set of two width markers.
Personally I wouldn't use reference planes but would eyeball the modeling while looking at the ref, preferably a 3/4 shot with a front and side orthographic views that line up, or at the bare min just a 3/4 shot or something that conveys the style and character pretty well.
For example I'm not sure what you're characters default posture is, what his demeanor is or his level of intelligence which is all great info to have from the concept, the more of that stuff you can model in the better job you'll do of conveying the character as a whole.
You might think "oh that's for the animator to do", but honestly they can only do so much with what they're given, they can't wrangle a sphere into a star without a great deal of effort, its better to start off with a star, if that makes any sense.
It's more important to convey the overall feeling of the piece and block in the forms in all aspects, than it is to place a vert exactly where it should be on the concept, because there are going to be vast differences between your side and your front orthographic views. Even the best concept artist in the world will be off in some small way and you'll need to fill in the gaps. The more comfortable you get with filling in those gaps the less you'll use reference planes literally like blue prints and view them more as a style guide.
I created only the torsos shilouette in ortho. adn several cylinder in top view. Then I went to perspective and started dragging the verts.
For my case I think I can't add more deffinition with the given amount of verts. I could refine it now but first I'd like to stick the parts togeher, or at least prepare the torso for sticking.
I defined the leg musculature and the ribcage a lil, is that approximately what you ment?
Giving the character a hunch to illustrate his heavyness and size.
I dint create a side view cuz I thought I could get the depth jsut by eye measurement. Just as you state below.
I made the experiance that, as a beginner like me, it is way easier to create nice models with propper concept planes.
As for a pro like you, shure a 3/4 shot is enought, but sadly not for me
Well, I know abbout this so that shouldnt be the problem.
Its jsut abbout you understanding what I actualy want I gues.
intelligence: high, spaceage, want to give him some futuristic armour later on.
The default pose is rather humanoid, straight standing, maybe a lil bitobviated to illustrate heavyness.
I do that jsut for my own entertainment, I do not at all think whats a other ones job. I want to model, sculpt, lopoly model, bake, rig and animate this one. So I actualy only make my own job easier when I do it right the first time, huh? ;p
The final result is in my head, at least a aproximately result.
I am aware that concept planes are a guide, not more.
It was never my intention to follow the concept 100%, it's jsut easier for me to work with. Also I finaly practiced some drawing when creatign the concepts
To illustrate his size and proporions
It's gonna be a intelligent alien race to be used in some futuristic theme.
The goal is something like that. Work by insomiainc.deviantart.com
The Spine, is it ok?
also, in a neutral pose, the temples should be exactly above the ankles.
As for the general flow, take a peek at this:
Verry nice, thanks!
So for my neutral pose with the hunch the temples are a little of.
I just see that my legs are totaly straight.
I will post new results in a few mintutes.
That drawing just went into my anatomic references folder, thanks bbob
Update:
with a little delay due to lunch:
I have set te plevis slightly higher, but I'd like to keep this length for the legs for now and increase it bevore I start sculpting the details.
So, any thoughts on the current state or shall I start refining now?
Hehe
The front view looked so good, I was REALY happy with it.
But then it turned out there is no chnace to get a propper depth with it, sad ;p
But so far I am happy with the current block model too, with the help of you pros here I coud be able to create that thing.
when you're triing to flatmodel (which is very common too) start making it 3d before it comes to detailing ^^
Oh yeh, I realy start the details way to early, I notice that myself but just can't stand it
Still need some hints for common techniques that help me with something like that:
"I got a cylinder and wat to create a muscular upper arm out of it and then attach it to the body"
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common techniques to create clean organic edgloops fom primitives
I know the basics and tools but would like to see how pros do it.
-
n-gon/triangle ellemination (if neccesary) while maintaining edgeflows
I have read alot abbout that but most was for mecanic modelling.
For organic modeling there are often triangles that just create the edge you need.
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all this in a verry overdosed way, not just a slight bump for the biceps like in most tutorials
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anything else to take care of
Just link me up to your favourite totorials if you don't feel like posting much ;p
UPDATE:
I just starded detailing rigt off
I got the feeilng im doing something terribly wrong... it doesn't look right at all
UPDATE:
Second try, still wrong... any help with that? Someone? :S
It looks like you might be starting down clutter road again, that arm is looking pretty busy and not a lot of detail is popping out for the amount of edges that are there. If you find yourself with a lot of edges packed close together in areas you don't really need them, you can re-route and optimize some of them like this:
Instead of continuing the loops down and trying to micro manage, you transition 3 strips back up to 1.
You can expand on this idea a little and cap certain loops like this:
This way you get some extra loops right where you need them but they don't carry on forever. This method comes in handy when you get down to the hands and find that the fingers need a lot of loops but the arm doesn't need so many.
Applied to some areas of your model they might work like this:
Note: These aren't the best places to do this, but it's the easiest place to show given the screenshot. Hopefully it gets the point across.
Thanks for the input Vig!
Yeh I notice that there is way to less detail for the hight poly ammount.
I gave it another try (see post above) but still can't get a decent result.
Cleaning up isn't a bad idea, graphites "build end" should do the trick.
I somehow got the feeling that with simply adding loops and "pinch-ing" edges I can't get a good result. How would you create such a upper arm, any extrude, bevel or cutting? I cant think of anything else than extra loops that would maintanin a aorganic look, but I need more definition :S
Also in the first image I crated a muscle that does not exist... geez... what am I doing?
EDIT:
Thanks, saw your edit for adding extra loops that don't carry on.
Is adding lops like that all I can do? Im still thinkign about cuting the shape of the biceps and then (somehow) refining it to quads.
Already got my two anatomy books ant hand, I neet to work out how to make that breast-to-shoulder area at the front.
Starting with the blocked model aggain.
Gota know the rules before you can bend them.
That being said, stop using connect or what ever max calls it, when it makes a cut across the entire models poly flow. Toss poly flow out the window just for a moment and get out the cut tool and do it old school making the shapes you want and need. From there you can worry about getting it all to flow back together nicely. When you make connects all over the place, you get tons of useless edges that only add to the confusion. Your new, so make it very very simple for yourself. Overtime your eye will develop for polygons and you will be able to anticipate where rings and loops will need to go. Also breaking off each limb is an easier way to control what your doing. Once you get the limb how you want it, then worry about stitching it back onto the rest of the model.
Ofcouse you are right, and I thought so myself, but I think I got a basic understanding of anatomy, I think the skeches kinda prove that.
Also so far the lizard is nothign else than a broad human, don't ya think?
I do not worry about scales, claws or anything rigt now, good old muscle system, not more. So I think it does not matter weather I try it on a fat, broad shouldered monster guy or on a thin default human.
Alright! After failign two times with connect I'll try cutting
As long as you people keep supporting me when I comes to cleanup, hehe.
I think for the shoulder party it's easier to work with when it's stiched, but you are the experiance one not me, I will see what I get from it.
UPDATE:
Third try, cutting (still with triangles)
hmm... not good either. Gonna google for some more character tutorials tomorrow.
I will try to sketch some edgeloops for the arm n shoulder.
and I actually do believe there is a difference in humans and broad lizard people, but again its just my personal opinion.
Also, bbob, source on that? What's the original artist? Just curious.
I don't think I can add much more than what has already said. I'm not sure if the intention for this particular model is to be a base mesh for a sculpt that you will do in ZB, like your quality bar image, or if this IS the high poly model and your doing it the old school way. I assume it's the first of the two... A problem that I am seeing is that you are focusing too much on certain muscle groups and not allowing them to flow dynamically. With the weird edges going on the shoulder area, you are going to have problems with both deformation and subdivision when it comes to sculpting.
I try to model a 'cape' that has support lines running from the bottom of the pecs - to the bottom of the delts and, more or less, ending with the shoulder blade.
Avoid triangles unless you are utilizing what they do, if you need a pinch in the model for example, just try to keep it clean so that when the model subdivides there is no weird lighting errors. If you absolutely need to use tris, keep them in unnoticeable places or in areas where the model benefits from their effects. That being said, focus on the big forms first and then go in to cleanup mode. If you focus on a super tidy mesh right away you'll spend a lot of time doing, undoing and redoing.
You do have a basic understanding of anatomy, but don't fool yourself into thinking you don't need to look at reference. Even in the example pic that you posted, as cool as it may be, isn't THAT anatomically correct. It's based on human anatomy and taking a lot of liberties with what would look cool on the model and I can see that this project would be going the same route. I think that's fine but I also think you should learn to crawl before you can walk. Being based on human anatomy, study very muscular men to know what to do and what not to do. You'll need to consider many different things as your character isn't just a 'broad human.' Still consider how the bones would be placed in the model, how the muscles and skin would be created based on the creatures size and habits.
More this:
Less this:
You've obviously learned a lesson from working too flat, just always keep the different views in mind and eventually you'll get it.
If you WERE planning on taking this to ZBrush or Mudbox, I would really keep it simple and reserve the details for sculpting. Too dense of a mesh + unclean mesh = headaches and sadness.
Keep it up!
Gav
If you had not seen the concept you would problably not notice that I'm doing something un-human, you would probably just think I messed up the proportions a lot, hehe ;P
Some here said it works even without planes, I got the box-mesh done without side plane, and for the detail work I think I only need my anatomy books.
But yeh, in general all 3 view would be the better coice, especialy for beginners.
Since I got the block mesh done the concept planes are hidden. So no, no front view for quite a while. Is my block mesh realy THAT bad o.O
(and the legs don't come out 90°)
Most people now tell me that he is to stiff and such, my problem is how to create the muscles :S To be honest I think I can tweak the pose a lot at any time in modeling bevore I start the sculpting.
I want to get forward a bit, not revise the block mesh all the time ;P
Oh yeah! I am collectig wireframe renders since i starded with modelling, yet it's hat do find usable ones. I got all the low and high poly wire renders from DW4 saved in my references folder for example.
Of couse startign small is always good, but if yo utake a look at my Signature link I think I'm experianced enought not to start with 1k triangel stuff aggain.
At least I feel like beeing experianced enough, but you pros gotta tell me, hehe ;p
And once aggain:
What I'd realy love to see in here are wireframes, Tutorials, or .gif sequences of how to create a nice biceps.
I want to get forward a bit ;p
An guys, pleas don't feel like I reject all your suggestions.
Have a look at my DeviantArt and see what I did so far, ist nothing breathtaking, maybe not even decent, but that way you see what I can do and what not yet
http://wiki.polycount.net/Limb_Topology
also...
http://images.google.ca/images?q=shoulder%20topology&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi
Man, if you can't punch a few words into google - I'm not sure how much help I can be. I really don't think there's 'one' tutorial that you need to follow, what you need to do is pay more attention to reference and follow the forms that you see.
Thats why I joined this community, and I am thankfull for this, even if I might not sound like I am
I'd love to see some wireframes at this point. I know what I want, I know what u mean, but how to achieve it? Take some wireframe images of your works people, please!
Im still in the noob state "Quad = good | Tri = bad"
Have not yet learned to use tris fro my purpose, what is a matter of experiance I think.
I tried to avoid them here:
And to ignore them here:
Neither was a succes, becaus IMO I don't know what edgesloops I want to have.
I dont even think abbout going into that detail right now. People dont focus to much on my lizard now. I don't focus on it either.
Just see it as a practice of modelling muscles, and for a better focus on them I wanted some muscular character.
...and I liek dragons so -> lizard monster :P
cut the head, hands and feet off and what you see? A human of verry wrong proportions with too big muscles. So help me to create a human with no focus on proportions or anything, but with focus on muscles modelling.
It was the frist time i tried that flat technuqe, yeah I lreand my lesson, hehe^^
I wanted to model as much detail as possible, then just imprint scales, outstanding veins and the likes. It's mainly a modellign practice, I just planed to retouche it with mudbox afterwards.
I am not much of a sculpter. And yet not much of a modeller either :S
I DID punch words into google, and received small, undefined, bumpy schoulders.
The best thing I found during my research was this:
Yet this is for a static sculpt and not quite suitable for game art.
Nor it gives insight of the modelling proces.
And I don't want to follow one tutorial.
I was hoping to get insightfull images like in the "How u model dem shapes?" Thread, but for organics. I am aware that probably noone is going to do something liek that for every noob that comes along with the question "how do I do awesome stuff" so I asked for some links to stuff liek in "How u model dem shapes?"
I hope that call for wireframes did not make me sound like I wanted the golden key to the ultimate character, I want to know about the techniques of professionals like you people.
I got lots of helpful tips in here, how to improve my overal workflow and make my characters more beleivable, but I did not yet get what I hoped for.
And I am not complainign at this point, don't get me wrong. Every bit helps me!
EDIT:
Looking at your portfolio gav, I find sone nice wireframes too.
But none of them helps me either :S (NOT that it is not helpful, it's just not what I hope to find either)
Do you know any person on this forum who could have created such a overdone character? Purely by modeling and not much sculpting?
zack pretroc's human anatomy sculpting in zbrush part 1 and part 2
this will help you get a feel for how to "get them shapes quickly" as you say. Tho this is using zbrush..
you could also take a look at ben mathis old school tutorials.
My understandign of anatomy (at least of muscles, not of pose and dynamic)
is ... ok. I dont want to create a character for a profesional protfolio.
I just want to create this charakter fo no other reasont than creating him.
Im not intrested into sculpting at this point, though thanks for the links, bookmarked them for future use
*taking a look*
You can see how he uses flow and edges to define forms. Where the mesh is denser or lighter depending on the detail needed. It's a beautifl example of sub_D modelling.
As for your model. I've been keeping track of this thread, and your progress is pretty much amazing.
BUT, I think you're moving way too early into a too detailed state of modelling. The model has no defined forms, not even matching up to the concept you drew up.
Try to get as much shape out of as little geometry as possible. This even goes for all the fancy highpoly modelling.
In fact, I would say toss out the idea of doing a highpoly model out of the window and make it a lowpoly model. You won't get distracted by all the specific rules that apply to sub_D modeling while building up a tremendous understanding about modelling organics.
I read all the things you want to do with this model, but I say, take it one step at a time, and focus on that step till you master it.
http://www.subdivisionmodeling.com/forums/showthread.php?t=907
http://www.subdivisionmodeling.com/forums/showthread.php?t=482
I'd imagine with the way games are now, most of what you'll find will be zbrush work, if you're going to model out every single detail you might want to look more into what they do in film- check out cgtalk, or try looking for old models people would make. Maybe look at stuff like Steven Stahlberg does
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=4254455&postcount=7
Thanks fro the comment!
My problem with the ref above is that the lower arm is "weld into the biceps" changing the edgeflow a full 90°. I were not able to translate that into a straight arm.
It seems more and more obvious that i should start with a easier model.
So what would you people suggest?
Shall I take my blocked basemesh, refine it as good as i can and then go to sculpting? Shall I start a small lowpoly char like a goblin? Or Shall I "just" create a default human model?
I'd realy like to finish my dragon here as good as possible, since I can't quite see what difference it makes practicing organic modelling with a half human rather than a human character.
From what I have seen here today is that noone actualy models the mesh to the degree of detail I want to go to, which makes my aim even more "rediculous".
Yet I wanna show you my current attempt at the musculature.
Tell me if you think I could refine the model at abbout this level and finsih it as good as I can, or if I shall try something different and more suitable for a beginner.
Back to the basics huh? Guess you are right
I have seen those articles bevore and bookmarked them, but I fell like I lack of experiance to actualy make use of the tips provided there. I need to encounter these problems first bevore understanding the methods of solving them.
I will frequend the two links you provided the next days, aswell as some character modelling tutorials.
I decided to go with polycount (or game art forums in general) since film are got way to much detail in it, at least for my taste.
I am somewhat in between, have not found my style and workflow yet.
Thanks, that wireframe looks nice! Could help some
Ok guys, thank you all for your kind attention and the lots of tips and tricks you blessed me with. I'll go get soem sleep now.
Hopefully you are still patient enought to check my wips tomorrow;)
Any thoughts? Does it still suck? Should I give up this one?
Although, I would advice you to start out smaller, and study anatomy WAY more, because this is terrible. Don't let it dishearten you though, but you gotta study a lot. You just cannot get away with hands like that.
UPDATE:
ToDo (mainly when sculpting)
-hands
-triceps
-ulna muscles
-those little fleshy bumps on the back
-the neck looks like a tree so far :S
I'll now work my way down the hips
I got 2 more weeks of semester hollidays, my anatomy books will accompany me
They're blocks yeh, and need quite a bit of bending. I thought I'll leave them how they are and try to correct them when sculpting. Im not shure if adding more edgeloops would be good at this point.
Look at your own hands, when you relax them. Notice how the thumb is below the rest of the fingers. Also, they are all boxy and weird. Redo them.
Also, that mesh is not something you would want to sculpt. You want evenly sized quads and you dont start with defining muscles untill you are sculpting..
Alright bbob, you finaly managed to convince me ;p
I'll put that project down for now and start practicing simple.
I thought it would be smart to model as much detail as possible and then sculpt all the tiny details, just like some sort of exact mesh-smoothing.
I have nearly zero experiance with sculpting, so I am not quite shure how to practice now.
Should I take the blockmesh form this project to mudbox and just try something?
Or should I follow a tutorial and model a human character as detailed as possible.
I'd say I practice modelling bevore I go to sculpting, but seeing that todays heavy focus on the sculpting I am not shure abbout that.
BTW, I still have enormous problems with faces.
I do not quite know where to begin now :S
typing face modeling tutorials into google will yeild some good results no doubt
So you assume I shal start with face modelling?
Getting the resources (via google) isn't the real problem now ;P
Shall I take the mudbox head and sculp, or shall I follow one of these turorials that start with a box and result in a head that got almost no need for sculpting anymore?
I don't go to a art school or a animation school or something, I'd like how one starts learning this. But consider I am not completely new to 3D.
I don't want to over do it for my current skill level, but neiter I want to go back to zero. I got two free weeks agead and I want to get the most out of it bevore uni starts aggain.
EDIT:
Wow sam! Goes straight in my Reference folder
Thanks, thats a startingpoint!
But model what, a human or somethign more simple?
Shall I draw concept planes aggain this time, or use existing concept?
Or shall I try it with ref. pics only like Vig said.
I am asking for a bit to much I fear, someting liek a personal training plan
Then when you have some condition we can start the training plan giving
you instructions on the right technique
Im looking for some good low poly start examples will be back if i find good ones.
Thankyou
I'm currently creatign a basic human with the help of this Tutorial by poopinmymouth.
For the conept I use some front, back and side views from my googled refferences folder.
That tutorial is verry nice
Followed your advices and partly the tutorial and got this:
[IMG][/img]
Anything good to say about this?
Careful when you get to the face part of that tutorial, that topology looks pretty messy and would probably animate poorly or at least be a bit of a nightmare to rig up. You can get the exact same shapes with the same number of tris and preserve proper edge loops. I'm not saying Poops method won't work, I just think its a little old school and some general accepted principles have been laid down and put into practice by a lot of artists, since then.
Dave King has some great video tutorials about speed modeling. Some good tips and a pretty solid workflow that centers around proper edge flow and topology.
The polycount wiki has some good info and examples on the subject also. The links at the top of the page are particularly useful.
The muscle on the forearm and the lower legs could need some adjustment right
now thats looking a little extreme.
Are you aiming for a sculptable mesh or a low poly with textures?
But IMO, the fastest way to improve your 3d modeling is by using a pencil and a piece of paper. Do studies everyday until you have the right proportions, shapes, volumes, forms imprinted into your brain. Then is just a matter to sync the 3d model with what your brain thinks is right. If you are able to see what's wrong, then you are can fix it.
Just quickly checked them, also might be a bit to advanced.
That seems like some nice stuff, I should finaly check polycounts wiki myself ;P
The legs are bent to much, but whats with the forearm?
Im still trying to go for a "blopy" biceps, if thats what u mean ;P
I don't realy know yet :S I just practice, and since I got no experiance in sculpting I tink I am going for a lowpoly.
Yeh, thought about relaxing stuff bevore skulpting it earlier.
Yet im not shure i want to start sculpting the henxt time, as you say, my anatomy knowledge needs soem tuning.
I were doodling arm sketches today and yesterday.
I got the basic knowledge, so I will try to mix modeling and drawing a bit.
A in depth study of human anatomy shure would be the better way, but I don't realy feel like it. I try to keep it fun ;p
Added some loops and refined several areas.
Next thing will be hands 'n' feet.
...then the head ... :S