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Advices needed: overdone muscular character

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polycounter lvl 14
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THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
So here is my current Project:
myproblem.jpg

fearian wrote: »
Welcome dude! You're going to look a shit ton here compared to Deviantart! :D

For your current problem.. I'd honestly say you would be best off starting again and building your model up in all 3 dimensions! Extrude edges by shift dragging, but don't be afraid about working in the perspective viewport. You shouldnt need to work in such detail right away either. Build up the large shapes, then add in more edges to create more detail. Theres a great example of this earlier in WAYWO:

pawn_wip01.gif
Thanks in advance, Mop! :)
THE 5 wrote:
Hmmm... That .gif sequence already starts with a basic, body-like shape.
How should I possibly start? Creatign a 4x4x4 steps box and pulling it into the torsos shape? Or probably stat with a cylinder or cone without caps?
I still got some problems with edge-draging in perspective, the Max pivot tends to go creazy for me, movign at y = -9999.. when I drag in XY plane
Also most tutorials on the web only show how to create default human characters, I have never seen anythign abbout such overdone musculature.
After I would have formed the base shape and proboprtons how would I create the muscles while maintaining a natural edgeflow?
Can somebody provide wireframes or more of those (verry usefull) .gifs?

And another short question that I might post in the GD too:
Is it a good investion to purcase a space navigaror for polygonal modelling?
In CAD it's the hardware of choice, but how abbout modelling, does it help?

So any helpful advice how to get this kind of character done is much appreciated.

Replies

  • ZacD
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    ZacD ngon master
    Work on the concept art some more, or use someone else's concept.
  • vcortis
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    vcortis polycounter lvl 9
    You need to build your character up more. You're getting into detail way too fast, your mesh is already unmanageable and you haven't even blocked out the head, forearems/hands or feet.

    I'd suggest starting with cylinders for the torso, legs and arms, and cubes for the head, feet and hands (fingers will be cylinders). Just block in the shapes and keep the polycount low so you can figure out how to connect each piece to the other.

    Remember, build up the shape...
  • THE 5
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    THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
    ZacD wrote: »
    Work on the concept art some more, or use someone else's concept.
    What specific do you mean?
    More detail, less detail, shading, draft edgeloops... ?
    Or better understandign of anatomy, is the anatomy wrong in this concept?
    I would not like to use others concepts, since I got to practice that too.
    Yet my problem remains finding a sufficient workflow for characers which are not covered with clothes or armour and got significant body structures.
    vcortis wrote: »
    You need to build your character up more. You're getting into detail way too fast, your mesh is already unmanageable and you haven't even blocked out the head, forearems/hands or feet.
    I'd suggest starting with cylinders for the torso, legs and arms, and cubes for the head, feet and hands (fingers will be cylinders). Just block in the shapes and keep the polycount low so you can figure out how to connect each piece to the other.
    Remember, build up the shape...
    I've seen a tutorial video where a head was built like that, forming the shilouette first. But im not shure if that is actualy a practical technique.
    Yes, I stardet into details way to fast.
    Forming a base shape first seems more relaible. Thanks ;)


    Edit: blocked try
    blaocked.jpg
    any critical mistakes so far?

    @ZacD
    Still waiting for reply :S
  • fearian
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    fearian greentooth
    In terms of building, you should get to know the tools you are working with. Assuming your in max, hit up the help files for the cut tool, connect, ring and loop buttons. Target weld is pretty straightforward... If you don't know these already look em up because they are the base of alot of poly modeling. Create shapes like vcortis said, convert to editable poly, push and pull verts to match the shape. select edges and use connect to add more loops to play with. In fact go wild with these tools on any standard primative to get a feel for them.

    To join objects together, go into the element part of the edit poly modifier and use the attach button to add one object to another. then you can weld verts or use bridge to connect edges.

    You probably know half of these (or more!) but I just want to cover all the basics! :)

    As for your concept - the clearer, more anatomically correct your concept, the better you're model. At the moment your own concept isn't the best 2d art, and if you follow it to the letter you're going to inherit the same problems in your model.

    Of course you will probably want to make YOUR model, not someone elses concept. to get around this start stockpiling images from anything that reflects what you want to make. you might have a ton of pictures from comics and movies of a predators legs so when you come to modelling them, you can relax on your concept and match something more natural. (ha, predator, natural.)
  • bbob
    The main mistake you did with that block is to follow your ortho too much, you forgot to give the shape a flow. The block has to convey character even though its just rough shapes put together.

    Try hiding the ortho, and start blocking out again, now, thinking about the curve of the spine etc.
  • THE 5
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    THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
    fearian wrote: »
    In terms of building, you should get to know the tools you are working with. Assuming your in max, hit up the help files for the cut tool, connect, ring and loop buttons. Target weld is pretty straightforward... If you don't know these already look em up because they are the base of alot of poly modeling. Create shapes like vcortis said, convert to editable poly, push and pull verts to match the shape. select edges and use connect to add more loops to play with. In fact go wild with these tools on any standard primative to get a feel for them.

    To join objects together, go into the element part of the edit poly modifier and use the attach button to add one object to another. then you can weld verts or use bridge to connect edges.

    You probably know half of these (or more!) but I just want to cover all the basics! :)

    I know all of that, hehe ;)
    As I said in my other "Yet another newcomer" thread, I'm with max since 1 year now and I think I know most of the tools necessary.
    I should realy have a basic understanding how to create a model, forming a base mesh was obvious but I hoped the traceing method would be faster.
    If youre intrested how much I can do so far check these:
    http://the-5.deviantart.com/art/1st-of-THE5-V1-0-151418861
    http://the-5.deviantart.com/art/Pulse-Blaster-3-Parts-Render-137845413
    http://the-5.deviantart.com/art/Revolver-three-parts-render-137639857
    http://the-5.deviantart.com/art/Brotherguard-making-of-152063503
    fearian wrote: »
    As for your concept - the clearer, more anatomically correct your concept, the better you're model. At the moment your own concept isn't the best 2d art, and if you follow it to the letter you're going to inherit the same problems in your model.

    Of course you will probably want to make YOUR model, not someone elses concept. to get around this start stockpiling images from anything that reflects what you want to make. you might have a ton of pictures from comics and movies of a predators legs so when you come to modelling them, you can relax on your concept and match something more natural. (ha, predator, natural.)

    This concept is actualy only for illsutrating the proportions while modelling.
    Most of the characters overall look is in my head.
    I don't know if experiaced people create a concept thats 100% what they get later, im not good enougt jet to create such a concept im affraid.
    As for stock images.
    My "References" Folder on my disc so far contains 2,135 images sorted in 73 folders ;p Categorys from anatomy over weapons to animals and lanscapes.
    Thanks for your help anyhow ;D


    My problem in this case is realy onle the one:
    I need tutorials, wireframes or gif sequences that illustrate the likes:
    "how to form a upper arm out of a cylinder" and then aggain not like a natural biceps like a slight bump, a well defined, stilizised one.
    Hard surface modelling and the tools ain't quite my problem.
    I am completely shure several people in this community created such tutorials or can tell me of their experiance, I just wait for them to get here ;p
  • Mark Dygert
    I totally agree with everything that's been said.

    Originally your first mistake was when you made your reference planes, you didn't include a side profile, which you're continuing to do. You're having trouble getting depth out of your model because you have no depth markers. You have a set of two width markers.

    Personally I wouldn't use reference planes but would eyeball the modeling while looking at the ref, preferably a 3/4 shot with a front and side orthographic views that line up, or at the bare min just a 3/4 shot or something that conveys the style and character pretty well.

    For example I'm not sure what you're characters default posture is, what his demeanor is or his level of intelligence which is all great info to have from the concept, the more of that stuff you can model in the better job you'll do of conveying the character as a whole.

    You might think "oh that's for the animator to do", but honestly they can only do so much with what they're given, they can't wrangle a sphere into a star without a great deal of effort, its better to start off with a star, if that makes any sense.

    It's more important to convey the overall feeling of the piece and block in the forms in all aspects, than it is to place a vert exactly where it should be on the concept, because there are going to be vast differences between your side and your front orthographic views. Even the best concept artist in the world will be off in some small way and you'll need to fill in the gaps. The more comfortable you get with filling in those gaps the less you'll use reference planes literally like blue prints and view them more as a style guide.
  • THE 5
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    THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
    bbob wrote: »
    The main mistake you did with that block is to follow your ortho too much, you forgot to give the shape a flow. The block has to convey character even though its just rough shapes put together.

    Try hiding the ortho, and start blocking out again, now, thinking about the curve of the spine etc.

    I created only the torsos shilouette in ortho. adn several cylinder in top view. Then I went to perspective and started dragging the verts.
    For my case I think I can't add more deffinition with the given amount of verts. I could refine it now but first I'd like to stick the parts togeher, or at least prepare the torso for sticking.

    I defined the leg musculature and the ribcage a lil, is that approximately what you ment?
    blaocked2.jpg
  • THE 5
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    THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
    Vig wrote: »
    Originally your first mistake was when you made your reference planes, you didn't include a side profile, which you're continuing to do.
    "Spine profile", I've never heard abbout that in any totorial, buy yes I get what you mean, thanks! so I gonna create a spline jsut in max, I'd say.
    Giving the character a hunch to illustrate his heavyness and size.
    Vig wrote: »
    You're having trouble getting depth out of your model because you have no depth markers. You have a set of two width markers.
    I dint create a side view cuz I thought I could get the depth jsut by eye measurement. Just as you state below.

    Vig wrote: »
    Personally I wouldn't use reference planes but would eyeball the modeling while looking at the ref, preferably a 3/4 shot with a front and side orthographic views that line up, or at the bare min just a 3/4 shot or something that conveys the style and character pretty well.
    I made the experiance that, as a beginner like me, it is way easier to create nice models with propper concept planes.
    As for a pro like you, shure a 3/4 shot is enought, but sadly not for me :/
    Vig wrote: »
    For example I'm not sure what you're characters default posture is, what his demeanor is or his level of intelligence which is all great info to have from the concept, the more of that stuff you can model in the better job you'll do of conveying the character as a whole.
    Well, I know abbout this so that shouldnt be the problem.
    Its jsut abbout you understanding what I actualy want I gues.
    intelligence: high, spaceage, want to give him some futuristic armour later on.
    The default pose is rather humanoid, straight standing, maybe a lil bitobviated to illustrate heavyness.
    Vig wrote: »
    You might think "oh that's for the animator to do", but honestly they can only do so much with what they're given, they can't wrangle a sphere into a star without a great deal of effort, its better to start off with a star, if that makes any sense.
    I do that jsut for my own entertainment, I do not at all think whats a other ones job. I want to model, sculpt, lopoly model, bake, rig and animate this one. So I actualy only make my own job easier when I do it right the first time, huh? ;p
    Vig wrote: »
    It's more important to convey the overall feeling of the piece and block in the forms in all aspects, than it is to place a vert exactly where it should be on the concept, because there are going to be vast differences between your side and your front orthographic views. Even the best concept artist in the world will be off in some small way and you'll need to fill in the gaps. The more comfortable you get with filling in those gaps the less you'll use reference planes literally like blue prints and view them more as a style guide.
    The final result is in my head, at least a aproximately result.
    I am aware that concept planes are a guide, not more.
    It was never my intention to follow the concept 100%, it's jsut easier for me to work with. Also I finaly practiced some drawing when creatign the concepts ;)

    To illustrate his size and proporions
    It's gonna be a intelligent alien race to be used in some futuristic theme.
    size.jpg
    The goal is something like that. Work by insomiainc.deviantart.com
    dragon_soldier_by_InsomiaInc.jpg

    The Spine, is it ok?
    spine.jpg
  • bbob
    Move the pelvis up, or lengthen the legs..

    also, in a neutral pose, the temples should be exactly above the ankles.

    As for the general flow, take a peek at this:

    1521501257_9448df51be.jpg?v=0
  • THE 5
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    THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
    bbob wrote: »
    Move the pelvis up, or lengthen the legs..

    also, in a neutral pose, the temples should be exactly above the ankles.

    As for the general flow, take a peek at this:

    [img][/img]

    Verry nice, thanks!
    So for my neutral pose with the hunch the temples are a little of.
    I just see that my legs are totaly straight.
    I will post new results in a few mintutes.
    That drawing just went into my anatomic references folder, thanks bbob ;)

    Update:
    with a little delay due to lunch:
    blaockedconnected3.jpg
    I have set te plevis slightly higher, but I'd like to keep this length for the legs for now and increase it bevore I start sculpting the details.

    So, any thoughts on the current state or shall I start refining now?
  • Andreas
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    Andreas polycounter lvl 11
    Good effort...man I actually almost spat out my coffee when I saw that first W.I.P from the persp view!!! :D:D:D
  • THE 5
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    THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
    Good effort...man I actually almost spat out my coffee when I saw that first W.I.P from the persp view!!! :D:D:D

    Hehe ;)
    The front view looked so good, I was REALY happy with it.
    But then it turned out there is no chnace to get a propper depth with it, sad ;p

    But so far I am happy with the current block model too, with the help of you pros here I coud be able to create that thing.
  • arrangemonk
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    arrangemonk polycounter lvl 17
    there is, but it needs as long as redoing it ^^
    when you're triing to flatmodel (which is very common too) start making it 3d before it comes to detailing ^^
  • THE 5
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    THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
    there is, but it needs as long as redoing it ^^
    when you're triing to flatmodel (which is very common too) start making it 3d before it comes to detailing ^^

    Oh yeh, I realy start the details way to early, I notice that myself but just can't stand it ;) Gota work on my discipline too ;P

    Still need some hints for common techniques that help me with something like that:
    "I got a cylinder and wat to create a muscular upper arm out of it and then attach it to the body"
    -
    common techniques to create clean organic edgloops fom primitives
    I know the basics and tools but would like to see how pros do it.
    -
    n-gon/triangle ellemination (if neccesary) while maintaining edgeflows
    I have read alot abbout that but most was for mecanic modelling.
    For organic modeling there are often triangles that just create the edge you need.
    -
    all this in a verry overdosed way, not just a slight bump for the biceps like in most tutorials
    -
    anything else to take care of

    Just link me up to your favourite totorials if you don't feel like posting much ;p


    UPDATE:
    I just starded detailing rigt off
    refining1.jpg
    I got the feeilng im doing something terribly wrong... it doesn't look right at all

    UPDATE:
    refining2.jpg
    Second try, still wrong... any help with that? Someone? :S
  • Mark Dygert
    I think you've made some great progress, nice work on blocking it out.

    It looks like you might be starting down clutter road again, that arm is looking pretty busy and not a lot of detail is popping out for the amount of edges that are there. If you find yourself with a lot of edges packed close together in areas you don't really need them, you can re-route and optimize some of them like this:
    BE.gif
    Instead of continuing the loops down and trying to micro manage, you transition 3 strips back up to 1.

    You can expand on this idea a little and cap certain loops like this:
    EL.gif
    This way you get some extra loops right where you need them but they don't carry on forever. This method comes in handy when you get down to the hands and find that the fingers need a lot of loops but the arm doesn't need so many.

    Applied to some areas of your model they might work like this:
    OptimizeLoops.gif
    Note: These aren't the best places to do this, but it's the easiest place to show given the screenshot. Hopefully it gets the point across.
  • THE 5
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    THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
    Vig wrote: »
    I think you've made some great progress, nice work on blocking it out.

    It looks like you might be starting down clutter road again, that arm is looking pretty busy and not a lot of detail is popping out for the amount of edges that are there. If you find yourself with a lot of edges packed close together in areas you don't really need them, you can re-route and optimize some of them like this. instead of continuing them down and trying to micro manage a bunch of loops you transition 3 strips back up to 1.

    Applied to some areas of your model they might work like this:
    OptimizeLoops.gif
    Note: These aren't the best places to do this, but it's the easiest place to show given the screenshot. Hopefully it gets the point across.

    Thanks for the input Vig!
    Yeh I notice that there is way to less detail for the hight poly ammount.
    I gave it another try (see post above) but still can't get a decent result.
    Cleaning up isn't a bad idea, graphites "build end" should do the trick.
    I somehow got the feeling that with simply adding loops and "pinch-ing" edges I can't get a good result. How would you create such a upper arm, any extrude, bevel or cutting? I cant think of anything else than extra loops that would maintanin a aorganic look, but I need more definition :S

    Also in the first image I crated a muscle that does not exist... geez... what am I doing?


    EDIT:
    Thanks, saw your edit for adding extra loops that don't carry on.
    Is adding lops like that all I can do? Im still thinkign about cuting the shape of the biceps and then (somehow) refining it to quads.

    Already got my two anatomy books ant hand, I neet to work out how to make that breast-to-shoulder area at the front.
    Starting with the blocked model aggain.
  • stimpack
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    stimpack polycounter lvl 10
    This is just my opinion on the subject.... If your going to learn proper anatomy on the fly, then you should attempt it on a human form, not a fantasy creature. There is no real life reff for a lizard space man but there is a ton for humans. Once you learn it on humans, transfer what you know onto fantasy.

    Gota know the rules before you can bend them.

    That being said, stop using connect or what ever max calls it, when it makes a cut across the entire models poly flow. Toss poly flow out the window just for a moment and get out the cut tool and do it old school making the shapes you want and need. From there you can worry about getting it all to flow back together nicely. When you make connects all over the place, you get tons of useless edges that only add to the confusion. Your new, so make it very very simple for yourself. Overtime your eye will develop for polygons and you will be able to anticipate where rings and loops will need to go. Also breaking off each limb is an easier way to control what your doing. Once you get the limb how you want it, then worry about stitching it back onto the rest of the model.
  • THE 5
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    THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
    Thanks for the comment stimpack.
    stimpack wrote: »
    This is just my opinion on the subject.... If your going to learn proper anatomy on the fly, then you should attempt it on a human form, not a fantasy creature. There is no real life reff for a lizard space man but there is a ton for humans. Once you learn it on humans, transfer what you know onto fantasy.

    Gota know the rules before you can bend them.

    Ofcouse you are right, and I thought so myself, but I think I got a basic understanding of anatomy, I think the skeches kinda prove that.
    Also so far the lizard is nothign else than a broad human, don't ya think?
    I do not worry about scales, claws or anything rigt now, good old muscle system, not more. So I think it does not matter weather I try it on a fat, broad shouldered monster guy or on a thin default human.

    stimpack wrote: »
    That being said, stop using connect or what ever max calls it, when it makes a cut across the entire models poly flow. Toss poly flow out the window just for a moment and get out the cut tool and do it old school making the shapes you want and need. From there you can worry about getting it all to flow back together nicely. When you make connects all over the place, you get tons of useless edges that only add to the confusion. Your new, so make it very very simple for yourself. Overtime your eye will develop for polygons and you will be able to anticipate where rings and loops will need to go. Also breaking off each limb is an easier way to control what your doing. Once you get the limb how you want it, then worry about stitching it back onto the rest of the model.

    Alright! After failign two times with connect I'll try cutting ;)
    As long as you people keep supporting me when I comes to cleanup, hehe.

    I think for the shoulder party it's easier to work with when it's stiched, but you are the experiance one not me, I will see what I get from it.


    UPDATE:
    Third try, cutting (still with triangles)
    refining3.jpg
    hmm... not good either. Gonna google for some more character tutorials tomorrow.
    I will try to sketch some edgeloops for the arm n shoulder.
  • stimpack
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    stimpack polycounter lvl 10
    Dont worry about triangles. Triangles are fine for now, you are just trying to develope the shapes and forms. After all is established, you can go back with a basic geometry and retopo. Mesh smooth is not necesary either till then.

    and I actually do believe there is a difference in humans and broad lizard people, but again its just my personal opinion.
  • cadyw
    I really appreciate the fact that you went so far from that first image, yeep! not sure if someone mentioned this already but you should always flesh out a front and SIDE view, not just front and back. then position your front and side image planes and keep turning them on and off to check your accuracy.
  • Joseph Silverman
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    Joseph Silverman polycounter lvl 17
    Hey man. The main problem with this is that it is very stiff and awkawrd -- it looks like you're modeling it primarily from the front, and only thinking about the front. This is 3d, it needs depth -- not just in he shapes of the muscles and roundness of the limbs, but in body structure. Pay attention to bbob's picture -- dynamicism! How are this guys' shoulders set? How do his legs come out of his hips? I doubt the answer is dead center in the torso and 90 degree angles out. Bobotheseal is a master at getting solid, 3d forms out of lowpoly models -- http://www.bobotheseal.com/personal_work/Bliz_BoBo_Orc01.jpg

    Also, bbob, source on that? What's the original artist? Just curious.
  • man_o_mule
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    man_o_mule polycounter lvl 18
    another idea here that used to work for me was to find wires of models your trying to make yours look like. then try to match the poly flow and edges you find in the wires. I would highly suggest working much much lower poly to start with though, like sub 1k triangles. it takes less time and helps build a foundation for creating more detailed models.
  • Gav
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    Gav quad damage
    Whoa man, this is definitely becoming a learning experience for you - getting better :)

    I don't think I can add much more than what has already said. I'm not sure if the intention for this particular model is to be a base mesh for a sculpt that you will do in ZB, like your quality bar image, or if this IS the high poly model and your doing it the old school way. I assume it's the first of the two... A problem that I am seeing is that you are focusing too much on certain muscle groups and not allowing them to flow dynamically. With the weird edges going on the shoulder area, you are going to have problems with both deformation and subdivision when it comes to sculpting.

    I try to model a 'cape' that has support lines running from the bottom of the pecs - to the bottom of the delts and, more or less, ending with the shoulder blade.

    406cd55c3e05f-61-1.jpg

    Avoid triangles unless you are utilizing what they do, if you need a pinch in the model for example, just try to keep it clean so that when the model subdivides there is no weird lighting errors. If you absolutely need to use tris, keep them in unnoticeable places or in areas where the model benefits from their effects. That being said, focus on the big forms first and then go in to cleanup mode. If you focus on a super tidy mesh right away you'll spend a lot of time doing, undoing and redoing.

    You do have a basic understanding of anatomy, but don't fool yourself into thinking you don't need to look at reference. Even in the example pic that you posted, as cool as it may be, isn't THAT anatomically correct. It's based on human anatomy and taking a lot of liberties with what would look cool on the model and I can see that this project would be going the same route. I think that's fine but I also think you should learn to crawl before you can walk. Being based on human anatomy, study very muscular men to know what to do and what not to do. You'll need to consider many different things as your character isn't just a 'broad human.' Still consider how the bones would be placed in the model, how the muscles and skin would be created based on the creatures size and habits.

    More this:
    bodybuilder.jpg

    Less this:
    Bodybuilder.jpg

    You've obviously learned a lesson from working too flat, just always keep the different views in mind and eventually you'll get it.

    If you WERE planning on taking this to ZBrush or Mudbox, I would really keep it simple and reserve the details for sculpting. Too dense of a mesh + unclean mesh = headaches and sadness.

    Keep it up!
    Gav
  • THE 5
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    THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
    stimpack wrote: »
    Dont worry about triangles. Triangles are fine for now, you are just trying to develope the shapes and forms. After all is established, you can go back with a basic geometry and retopo. Mesh smooth is not necesary either till then.
    Yeh. But I don't think it looks good even with triangles right now, not taking smooth into account.
    stimpack wrote: »
    and I actually do believe there is a difference in humans and broad lizard people, but again its just my personal opinion.
    If you had not seen the concept you would problably not notice that I'm doing something un-human, you would probably just think I messed up the proportions a lot, hehe ;P
    cadyw wrote: »
    I really appreciate the fact that you went so far from that first image, yeep! not sure if someone mentioned this already but you should always flesh out a front and SIDE view, not just front and back. then position your front and side image planes and keep turning them on and off to check your accuracy.
    Some here said it works even without planes, I got the box-mesh done without side plane, and for the detail work I think I only need my anatomy books.
    But yeh, in general all 3 view would be the better coice, especialy for beginners.
    SupRore wrote: »
    Hey man. The main problem with this is that it is very stiff and awkawrd -- it looks like you're modeling it primarily from the front, and only thinking about the front. This is 3d, it needs depth -- not just in he shapes of the muscles and roundness of the limbs, but in body structure. Pay attention to bbob's picture -- dynamicism! How are this guys' shoulders set? How do his legs come out of his hips? I doubt the answer is dead center in the torso and 90 degree angles out. Bobotheseal is a master at getting solid, 3d forms out of lowpoly models -- http://www.bobotheseal.com/personal_work/Bliz_BoBo_Orc01.jpg

    Since I got the block mesh done the concept planes are hidden. So no, no front view for quite a while. Is my block mesh realy THAT bad o.O
    (and the legs don't come out 90°)
    Most people now tell me that he is to stiff and such, my problem is how to create the muscles :S To be honest I think I can tweak the pose a lot at any time in modeling bevore I start the sculpting.
    I want to get forward a bit, not revise the block mesh all the time ;P

    man_o_mule wrote: »
    another idea here that used to work for me was to find wires of models your trying to make yours look like. then try to match the poly flow and edges you find in the wires.
    Oh yeah! I am collectig wireframe renders since i starded with modelling, yet it's hat do find usable ones. I got all the low and high poly wire renders from DW4 saved in my references folder for example.
    man_o_mule wrote: »
    I would highly suggest working much much lower poly to start with though, like sub 1k triangles. it takes less time and helps build a foundation for creating more detailed models.
    Of couse startign small is always good, but if yo utake a look at my Signature link I think I'm experianced enought not to start with 1k triangel stuff aggain.
    At least I feel like beeing experianced enough, but you pros gotta tell me, hehe ;p


    And once aggain:
    What I'd realy love to see in here are wireframes, Tutorials, or .gif sequences of how to create a nice biceps.
    I want to get forward a bit ;p

    An guys, pleas don't feel like I reject all your suggestions.
    Have a look at my DeviantArt and see what I did so far, ist nothing breathtaking, maybe not even decent, but that way you see what I can do and what not yet ;)
  • Gav
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    Gav quad damage
    http://wiki.polycount.net/Shoulder_Topology
    http://wiki.polycount.net/Limb_Topology

    also...

    http://images.google.ca/images?q=shoulder%20topology&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi

    Man, if you can't punch a few words into google - I'm not sure how much help I can be. I really don't think there's 'one' tutorial that you need to follow, what you need to do is pay more attention to reference and follow the forms that you see.
  • THE 5
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    THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
    Gav wrote: »
    Whoa man, this is definitely becoming a learning experience for you - getting better :)

    Thats why I joined this community, and I am thankfull for this, even if I might not sound like I am ;)
    Gav wrote: »
    I don't think I can add much more than what has already said. I'm not sure if the intention for this particular model is to be a base mesh for a sculpt that you will do in ZB, like your quality bar image, or if this IS the high poly model and your doing it the old school way. I assume it's the first of the two... A problem that I am seeing is that you are focusing too much on certain muscle groups and not allowing them to flow dynamically. With the weird edges going on the shoulder area, you are going to have problems with both deformation and subdivision when it comes to sculpting.

    I try to model a 'cape' that has support lines running from the bottom of the pecs - to the bottom of the delts and, more or less, ending with the shoulder blade.
    I'd love to see some wireframes at this point. I know what I want, I know what u mean, but how to achieve it? Take some wireframe images of your works people, please!
    Gav wrote: »
    Avoid triangles unless you are utilizing what they do, if you need a pinch in the model for example, just try to keep it clean so that when the model subdivides there is no weird lighting errors. If you absolutely need to use tris, keep them in unnoticeable places or in areas where the model benefits from their effects. That being said, focus on the big forms first and then go in to cleanup mode. If you focus on a super tidy mesh right away you'll spend a lot of time doing, undoing and redoing.
    Im still in the noob state "Quad = good | Tri = bad"
    Have not yet learned to use tris fro my purpose, what is a matter of experiance I think.
    I tried to avoid them here:
    refining2.jpg?t=1267038966

    And to ignore them here:
    refining3.jpg?t=1267038966

    Neither was a succes, becaus IMO I don't know what edgesloops I want to have.

    Gav wrote: »
    You do have a basic understanding of anatomy, but don't fool yourself into thinking you don't need to look at reference. Even in the example pic that you posted, as cool as it may be, isn't THAT anatomically correct. It's based on human anatomy and taking a lot of liberties with what would look cool on the model and I can see that this project would be going the same route. I think that's fine but I also think you should learn to crawl before you can walk. Being based on human anatomy, study very muscular men to know what to do and what not to do. You'll need to consider many different things as your character isn't just a 'broad human.' Still consider how the bones would be placed in the model, how the muscles and skin would be created based on the creatures size and habits.

    I dont even think abbout going into that detail right now. People dont focus to much on my lizard now. I don't focus on it either.
    Just see it as a practice of modelling muscles, and for a better focus on them I wanted some muscular character.
    ...and I liek dragons so -> lizard monster :P
    cut the head, hands and feet off and what you see? A human of verry wrong proportions with too big muscles. So help me to create a human with no focus on proportions or anything, but with focus on muscles modelling.
    Gav wrote: »
    You've obviously learned a lesson from working too flat, just always keep the different views in mind and eventually you'll get it.
    It was the frist time i tried that flat technuqe, yeah I lreand my lesson, hehe^^
    Gav wrote: »
    If you WERE planning on taking this to ZBrush or Mudbox, I would really keep it simple and reserve the details for sculpting. Too dense of a mesh + unclean mesh = headaches and sadness.
    Keep it up!
    Gav

    I wanted to model as much detail as possible, then just imprint scales, outstanding veins and the likes. It's mainly a modellign practice, I just planed to retouche it with mudbox afterwards.
    I am not much of a sculpter. And yet not much of a modeller either :S
  • THE 5
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    THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
    Gav wrote: »
    http://wiki.polycount.net/Shoulder_Topology
    http://wiki.polycount.net/Limb_Topology

    also...

    http://images.google.ca/images?q=shoulder%20topology&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi

    Man, if you can't punch a few words into google - I'm not sure how much help I can be. I really don't think there's 'one' tutorial that you need to follow, what you need to do is pay more attention to reference and follow the forms that you see.

    I DID punch words into google, and received small, undefined, bumpy schoulders.

    The best thing I found during my research was this:
    2vi85-7zumb-txerf-ux82m:760x0.jpg
    Yet this is for a static sculpt and not quite suitable for game art.
    Nor it gives insight of the modelling proces.

    And I don't want to follow one tutorial.
    I was hoping to get insightfull images like in the "How u model dem shapes?" Thread, but for organics. I am aware that probably noone is going to do something liek that for every noob that comes along with the question "how do I do awesome stuff" so I asked for some links to stuff liek in "How u model dem shapes?"

    I hope that call for wireframes did not make me sound like I wanted the golden key to the ultimate character, I want to know about the techniques of professionals like you people.

    I got lots of helpful tips in here, how to improve my overal workflow and make my characters more beleivable, but I did not yet get what I hoped for.
    And I am not complainign at this point, don't get me wrong. Every bit helps me!

    EDIT:
    Looking at your portfolio gav, I find sone nice wireframes too.
    But none of them helps me either :S (NOT that it is not helpful, it's just not what I hope to find either)
    Do you know any person on this forum who could have created such a overdone character? Purely by modeling and not much sculpting?
  • raul
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    raul polycounter lvl 11
    im problably going to sound like a broken record for saying this, but look at reference. Also, anatomy is not someting you can just teach or learn in a week. It takes years and years to master. Which is i prefer doing props to character, the tension is less. I suggest you take a look at this training.

    zack pretroc's human anatomy sculpting in zbrush part 1 and part 2

    this will help you get a feel for how to "get them shapes quickly" as you say. Tho this is using zbrush..

    you could also take a look at ben mathis old school tutorials.
  • THE 5
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    THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
    raul wrote: »
    im problably going to sound like a broken record for saying this, but look at reference. Also, anatomy is not someting you can just teach or learn in a week. It takes years and years to master. Which is i prefer doing props to character, the tension is less.
    So far I only created props, I finaly want to try some characters.
    My understandign of anatomy (at least of muscles, not of pose and dynamic)
    is ... ok. I dont want to create a character for a profesional protfolio.
    I just want to create this charakter fo no other reasont than creating him.

    raul wrote: »
    I suggest you take a look at this training.

    zack pretroc's human anatomy sculpting in zbrush part 1 and part 2

    this will help you get a feel for how to "get them shapes quickly" as you say. Tho this is using zbrush..
    Im not intrested into sculpting at this point, though thanks for the links, bookmarked them for future use ;)
    raul wrote: »
    you could also take a look at ben mathis old school tutorials.

    *taking a look* ;)
  • pestibug
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    pestibug polycounter lvl 18
    That last image you found is a beautiful example. You can get so much info out of it.

    You can see how he uses flow and edges to define forms. Where the mesh is denser or lighter depending on the detail needed. It's a beautifl example of sub_D modelling.

    As for your model. I've been keeping track of this thread, and your progress is pretty much amazing.
    BUT, I think you're moving way too early into a too detailed state of modelling. The model has no defined forms, not even matching up to the concept you drew up.

    Try to get as much shape out of as little geometry as possible. This even goes for all the fancy highpoly modelling.

    In fact, I would say toss out the idea of doing a highpoly model out of the window and make it a lowpoly model. You won't get distracted by all the specific rules that apply to sub_D modeling while building up a tremendous understanding about modelling organics.

    I read all the things you want to do with this model, but I say, take it one step at a time, and focus on that step till you master it.
  • OrganizedChaos
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    OrganizedChaos polycounter lvl 17
    If you want insightful images- just spend the time looking around. Browse the archives of the entries to the dominance wars- it's a character modeling contest geared towards game entries with some really fantastic entries. I'm sure you can still look through some of the entries people made- check out the thread they had and how they modeled theirs. Browse the forums here- or even explore others. Read up on poles (to understand edgeloops and how to control them) and form
    http://www.subdivisionmodeling.com/forums/showthread.php?t=907
    http://www.subdivisionmodeling.com/forums/showthread.php?t=482

    I'd imagine with the way games are now, most of what you'll find will be zbrush work, if you're going to model out every single detail you might want to look more into what they do in film- check out cgtalk, or try looking for old models people would make. Maybe look at stuff like Steven Stahlberg does
    http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=4254455&postcount=7
  • THE 5
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    THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
    pestibug wrote: »
    That last image you found is a beautiful example. You can get so much info out of it.

    You can see how he uses flow and edges to define forms. Where the mesh is denser or lighter depending on the detail needed. It's a beautifl example of sub_D modelling.

    As for your model. I've been keeping track of this thread, and your progress is pretty much amazing.
    BUT, I think you're moving way too early into a too detailed state of modelling. The model has no defined forms, not even matching up to the concept you drew up.

    Try to get as much shape out of as little geometry as possible. This even goes for all the fancy highpoly modelling.

    In fact, I would say toss out the idea of doing a highpoly model out of the window and make it a lowpoly model. You won't get distracted by all the specific rules that apply to sub_D modeling while building up a tremendous understanding about modelling organics.

    I read all the things you want to do with this model, but I say, take it one step at a time, and focus on that step till you master it.

    Thanks fro the comment!
    My problem with the ref above is that the lower arm is "weld into the biceps" changing the edgeflow a full 90°. I were not able to translate that into a straight arm.

    It seems more and more obvious that i should start with a easier model.
    So what would you people suggest?
    Shall I take my blocked basemesh, refine it as good as i can and then go to sculpting? Shall I start a small lowpoly char like a goblin? Or Shall I "just" create a default human model?
    I'd realy like to finish my dragon here as good as possible, since I can't quite see what difference it makes practicing organic modelling with a half human rather than a human character.

    From what I have seen here today is that noone actualy models the mesh to the degree of detail I want to go to, which makes my aim even more "rediculous".
    Yet I wanna show you my current attempt at the musculature.
    Tell me if you think I could refine the model at abbout this level and finsih it as good as I can, or if I shall try something different and more suitable for a beginner.
    wip1.jpg


    If you want insightful images- just spend the time looking around. Browse the archives of the entries to the dominance wars- it's a character modeling contest geared towards game entries with some really fantastic entries. I'm sure you can still look through some of the entries people made- check out the thread they had and how they modeled theirs. Browse the forums here- or even explore others. Read up on poles (to understand edgeloops and how to control them) and form
    http://www.subdivisionmodeling.com/forums/showthread.php?t=907
    http://www.subdivisionmodeling.com/forums/showthread.php?t=482
    Back to the basics huh? Guess you are right ;)
    I have seen those articles bevore and bookmarked them, but I fell like I lack of experiance to actualy make use of the tips provided there. I need to encounter these problems first bevore understanding the methods of solving them.
    I will frequend the two links you provided the next days, aswell as some character modelling tutorials.

    I'd imagine with the way games are now, most of what you'll find will be zbrush work, if you're going to model out every single detail you might want to look more into what they do in film- check out cgtalk,...
    I decided to go with polycount (or game art forums in general) since film are got way to much detail in it, at least for my taste.
    I am somewhat in between, have not found my style and workflow yet.

    ...or try looking for old models people would make. Maybe look at stuff like Steven Stahlberg does
    http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=4254455&postcount=7

    Thanks, that wireframe looks nice! Could help some ;)



    Ok guys, thank you all for your kind attention and the lots of tips and tricks you blessed me with. I'll go get soem sleep now.
    Hopefully you are still patient enought to check my wips tomorrow;)
  • THE 5
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    THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
    I hope it is ok to bump this thread.
    wip3.jpg
    Any thoughts? Does it still suck? Should I give up this one?
  • bbob
    Ofcourse its okay to bump your own thread with an update O.o

    Although, I would advice you to start out smaller, and study anatomy WAY more, because this is terrible. Don't let it dishearten you though, but you gotta study a lot. You just cannot get away with hands like that.
  • THE 5
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    THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
    bbob wrote: »
    Ofcourse its okay to bump your own thread with an update O.o
    Good thing, thnx ;)

    UPDATE:
    wip4.jpg
    ToDo (mainly when sculpting)
    -hands
    -triceps
    -ulna muscles
    -those little fleshy bumps on the back
    -the neck looks like a tree so far :S

    I'll now work my way down the hips
    bbob wrote: »
    Although, I would advice you to start out smaller, and study anatomy WAY more, because this is terrible.
    I got 2 more weeks of semester hollidays, my anatomy books will accompany me :D
    bbob wrote: »
    Don't let it dishearten you though, but you gotta study a lot. You just cannot get away with hands like that.
    They're blocks yeh, and need quite a bit of bending. I thought I'll leave them how they are and try to correct them when sculpting. Im not shure if adding more edgeloops would be good at this point.
  • bbob
    dude, they are all wrong.

    Look at your own hands, when you relax them. Notice how the thumb is below the rest of the fingers. Also, they are all boxy and weird. Redo them.

    Also, that mesh is not something you would want to sculpt. You want evenly sized quads and you dont start with defining muscles untill you are sculpting..
  • THE 5
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    THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
    bbob wrote: »
    Also, that mesh is not something you would want to sculpt. You want evenly sized quads and you dont start with defining muscles untill you are sculpting..

    Alright bbob, you finaly managed to convince me ;p
    I'll put that project down for now and start practicing simple.
    I thought it would be smart to model as much detail as possible and then sculpt all the tiny details, just like some sort of exact mesh-smoothing.
    I have nearly zero experiance with sculpting, so I am not quite shure how to practice now.
    Should I take the blockmesh form this project to mudbox and just try something?
    Or should I follow a tutorial and model a human character as detailed as possible.
    I'd say I practice modelling bevore I go to sculpting, but seeing that todays heavy focus on the sculpting I am not shure abbout that.
    BTW, I still have enormous problems with faces.
    I do not quite know where to begin now :S
  • samgriffiths
    Thats what polycount is for, some advice may be harsh but it's all in your best intererst.

    typing face modeling tutorials into google will yeild some good results no doubt ;)
  • THE 5
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    THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
    Thats what polycount is for, some advice may be harsh but it's all in your best intererst.
    I've been following polycout for approx a month now, I registered here cuz I know people are willingly to give usable advices, weather they seem harsh or not, I'm thankfull for every bit ;)

    typing face modeling tutorials into google will yeild some good results no doubt ;)

    So you assume I shal start with face modelling?
    Getting the resources (via google) isn't the real problem now ;P
    Shall I take the mudbox head and sculp, or shall I follow one of these turorials that start with a box and result in a head that got almost no need for sculpting anymore?
    I don't go to a art school or a animation school or something, I'd like how one starts learning this. But consider I am not completely new to 3D.
    I don't want to over do it for my current skill level, but neiter I want to go back to zero. I got two free weeks agead and I want to get the most out of it bevore uni starts aggain.

    EDIT:
    torso.png
    Wow sam! Goes straight in my Reference folder :D
  • Zwebbie
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    Zwebbie polycounter lvl 18
    I hate to be a one-liner party pooper, but I honestly think that you're better off leaving the whole highpoly thing for now. You can model a lowpoly mesh in a day or so and spend all your attention on the shapes and silhouette, without having to worry much about musculature and edge flow.
  • THE 5
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    THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
    Zwebbie wrote: »
    I hate to be a one-liner party pooper, but I honestly think that you're better off leaving the whole highpoly thing for now. You can model a lowpoly mesh in a day or so and spend all your attention on the shapes and silhouette, without having to worry much about musculature and edge flow.

    Thanks, thats a startingpoint!
    But model what, a human or somethign more simple?
    Shall I draw concept planes aggain this time, or use existing concept?
    Or shall I try it with ref. pics only like Vig said.

    I am asking for a bit to much I fear, someting liek a personal training plan :D
  • Disco Stu
    First thing well do as personal trainers is force you to do sports every day.
    Then when you have some condition we can start the training plan giving
    you instructions on the right technique :D

    Im looking for some good low poly start examples will be back if i find good ones.
  • THE 5
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    THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
    Disco Stu wrote: »
    First thing well do as personal trainers is force you to do sports every day.
    Then when you have some condition we can start the training plan giving
    you instructions on the right technique :D

    Im looking for some good low poly start examples will be back if i find good ones.

    Thankyou :D

    I'm currently creatign a basic human with the help of this Tutorial by poopinmymouth.
    For the conept I use some front, back and side views from my googled refferences folder.
    That tutorial is verry nice ;)
  • THE 5
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    THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
    /bump
    Followed your advices and partly the tutorial and got this:
    [IMG][/img]Wip01.jpg

    Anything good to say about this? :D
  • Mark Dygert
    Off to a good start! I like all the improvement you've made in this thread.

    Careful when you get to the face part of that tutorial, that topology looks pretty messy and would probably animate poorly or at least be a bit of a nightmare to rig up. You can get the exact same shapes with the same number of tris and preserve proper edge loops. I'm not saying Poops method won't work, I just think its a little old school and some general accepted principles have been laid down and put into practice by a lot of artists, since then.

    Dave King has some great video tutorials about speed modeling. Some good tips and a pretty solid workflow that centers around proper edge flow and topology.

    The polycount wiki has some good info and examples on the subject also. The links at the top of the page are particularly useful.
  • Disco Stu
    Yeah big improvement already.
    The muscle on the forearm and the lower legs could need some adjustment right
    now thats looking a little extreme.
    Are you aiming for a sculptable mesh or a low poly with textures?
  • undoz
    Run a relax onto that mesh and you have a good base model for sculpting.

    But IMO, the fastest way to improve your 3d modeling is by using a pencil and a piece of paper. Do studies everyday until you have the right proportions, shapes, volumes, forms imprinted into your brain. Then is just a matter to sync the 3d model with what your brain thinks is right. If you are able to see what's wrong, then you are can fix it.
  • THE 5
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    THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
    Vig wrote: »
    Off to a good start! I like all the improvement you've made in this thread.

    Careful when you get to the face part of that tutorial, that topology looks pretty messy and would probably animate poorly or at least be a bit of a nightmare to rig up. You can get the exact same shapes with the same number of tris and preserve proper edge loops. I'm not saying Poops method won't work, I just think its a little old school and some general accepted principles have been laid down and put into practice by a lot of artists, since then.
    I planed to search for some different face tutorials, the way poop does it is a bit to high for me. I'd like to start with base shapes aggain and then refine step by step.
    Vig wrote: »
    Dave King has some great video tutorials about speed modeling. Some good tips and a pretty solid workflow that centers around proper edge flow and topology.
    Just quickly checked them, also might be a bit to advanced.
    Vig wrote: »
    The polycount wiki has some good info and examples on the subject also. The links at the top of the page are particularly useful.
    That seems like some nice stuff, I should finaly check polycounts wiki myself ;P


    Disco Stu wrote: »
    Yeah big improvement already.
    The muscle on the forearm and the lower legs could need some adjustment right
    now thats looking a little extreme.
    The legs are bent to much, but whats with the forearm?
    Im still trying to go for a "blopy" biceps, if thats what u mean ;P

    Disco Stu wrote: »
    Are you aiming for a sculptable mesh or a low poly with textures?
    I don't realy know yet :S I just practice, and since I got no experiance in sculpting I tink I am going for a lowpoly.

    undoz wrote: »
    Run a relax onto that mesh and you have a good base model for sculpting.
    Yeh, thought about relaxing stuff bevore skulpting it earlier.
    Yet im not shure i want to start sculpting the henxt time, as you say, my anatomy knowledge needs soem tuning.
    undoz wrote: »
    But IMO, the fastest way to improve your 3d modeling is by using a pencil and a piece of paper. Do studies everyday until you have the right proportions, shapes, volumes, forms imprinted into your brain. Then is just a matter to sync the 3d model with what your brain thinks is right. If you are able to see what's wrong, then you are can fix it.
    I were doodling arm sketches today and yesterday.
    I got the basic knowledge, so I will try to mix modeling and drawing a bit.
    A in depth study of human anatomy shure would be the better way, but I don't realy feel like it. I try to keep it fun ;p
  • THE 5
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    THE 5 polycounter lvl 14
    Wip02.jpg
    Added some loops and refined several areas.
    Next thing will be hands 'n' feet.
    ...then the head ... :S
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