Just hope these chinese eventually wake up and demand the same kind of labor laws and work ethics we have in Europe and the US, that's the best way to balance out outsourcing... Who knows when and if that will happen.
Just hope these chinese eventually wake up and demand the same kind of labor laws and work ethics we have in Europe and the US, that's the best way to balance out outsourcing... Who knows when and if that will happen.
They are a communist country with a terrible human rights track record.....so I wouldn't hold my breath.
strongly disagree with that. How does one get out of debt (which is largely a factor in this recession) by spending more than you produce? which is what got the united states into so much trouble in the first place
Not to get off track but thats tracking "economic growth" which has nothing to do with debt or the unemployment rate.
Enter the Jobless recovery like we had after the .com bubble burst 10-12 years ago. We rebound on paper but not a lot changes. Places also use the opportunity to trim their overhead (staff) which boosts profits and makes the graph go up.
At least this time people are getting wise and not calling it a recovery until more people are back to work. Hopefully instead of finding a new bubble and pumping it up, we'll get back to reasonable business and step away from the get rich quick BS that always gets us in trouble.
Right now we are in the same boat the animation industry was in the 70's-80's when the undercutting started for them. It was also the death of their industry in a lot of ways. I think we have a few more options than what the had back then.
At least we have ways of making games in small teams and getting them to paying customers. Thats something they didn't have.
While not racism, I have to say Blenderhead has a point (phrased in a blenderhead-like way though it may be), and there's quite a lot of anger and xenophobia in the air here. I'm not happy to have lost my job and to have trouble finding a new one. I'm not happy to see work go to cheap labour. But 'some fucker in China'?
On the other hand, if sending labour to Chinese artists is fair game, then I say publishers allow us to buy our games in 'low-income' markets as well, as they routinely sell games for much less in countries with less disposable income.
Agreed MightyPea. I work with India(n) outsourced help, which they keep a portion on campus. I use to have the 'fucker in ****" attitude, but working with these guys makes me realize, they are just trying to earn a living too. They aren't the bad guys, just someone using an opportunity to make their life better. In my scenario, I think the work is inferior to local/American talent, but that's the company's choice.
I now direct my attitude towards the companies that feel they need to continue a steady growth, no matter what the cost on our economy. They don't see the bottom line/long term effect of this, because they are looking for the immediate results. Eventually, when our whole country is unemployed, who do they expect to sell their products to? The third world, underpaid, countries?
Yea its easy to get angry and play the xenophobia card and claim that outside forces are stealing our jerbs. But honestly its a companys choice to find a cheaper labor pool. If you want to be mad about anything be mad about the cost of living, the cost of a house/rent or the cost of a car. I paid more for my condo than my parents first 3 houses combined and it was a hell of deal.
We need to work on getting those things back under control so we can compete. But its easier to get mad and smash stuff than it is to fix things... But I guess no one person can fix this so we're better off setting fire to china town and beating up Asian looking kindergarteners, because thats the road were on.
Thing is, the Chinese who work for western studios actually earn okay money here. They have their cars, game consoles, iPods, PSPs, flatscreen TVs, etc. Their work environment is in a quite different league than that of the people who assemble ipods and other electronics.
There's quite a gap here - there's enough people driving nice BMWs and Audis, but there's also many who still ride a rusty old bicycle and live from collecting paper or plastic bottles for recycling. And then there's a quite broad middle class inbetween.
Sure that's just the coastal towns, but that alone is a whole lot of people who are doing quite okay...and who are and will be customers of games we make. Hopefully western games too!
They are a communist country with a terrible human rights track record.....so I wouldn't hold my breath.
The chinese actually have quite good labour laws compared to india or even the USA. Human rights have nothing to do with labour laws.
But the reason why it's so cheap there is because the government is artificially holding their exchange rate down to a low level. If they didn't regulate their currency so strictly they'd soon be costing the same amount as everyone else.
There's quite a gap here - there's enough people driving nice BMWs and Audis, but there's also many who still ride a rusty old bicycle and live from collecting paper or plastic bottles for recycling. And then there's a quite broad middle class inbetween.
Sure that's just the coastal towns, but that alone is a whole lot of people who are doing quite okay...and who are and will be customers of games we make. Hopefully western games too!
What's it like working in Shanghai? Did you have much mandarin before you went over? Or is there english spoken in the work environment? How many games studios would you say are in Shanghai? I'd say its really cool living in Shanghai if you got the cash...like living in Tokyo except in China
I work for Virtuos in Shanghai, a Chinese company founded by ex Ubi Shanghai people. Right now it's Chinas biggest outsourcer and we do have some high profile clients. Maybe we're just working on stuff for YOUR company
Actually living costs are quite cheap, except for rent.... although american work mates told me that's cheap too. E.g. I can take a taxi for less than a tramway ticket at home. I can eat at a proper restaurant at lunch (with service, no cafeteria style thing) for the same I paid at the company cantina at my last work place (Funcom/Oslo/Norway). So cost of living is not an issue unless you want western food every day - that's expensive. But real chinese food has so much variety and it's so yummy that I have no problem eating it every day.
Western brand electronics are also expensive - they cost the same as in Europe.
Shopping: there's H&M, C&A, Ikea, Best Buy, Walmart, 7-Eleven, Apple stores, Nike shops, etc. everything you find at home too.
There's other drawbacks though - the internet can be sometimes funny. English books are hard to get. You really live in a BIG city (21 mio). Language can be a problem. But Chinese are very friendly (if you look western) and helpful. Crime involving foreigners is also not an issue. In fact the crime rate is very low. I also feel much safer than let's say London or even Berlin.
In the studio many Chinese artists speak english. The majority speaks a little bit, but the leads and seniors speak more. The company provides training for the artists and offers english courses. However often a Chinese guy acts as translator, to make sure everyone really understands what's to be done.
The work place is also pretty good too and clean. I've definitely seen worse in the west.
Other studios...as far as I know there's Ubi Shanghai, Massive Black, Blizzard has an office there - not sure how much art they do...probably removing all the skeletons from WoW ,. I think Epic is here too. They have another "lower cost" studio in Warshaw.
So it's not just China. Eastern Europe is also quite attractice. Closer mentality wise, easier to travel to and also cheaper than western Europe.
So cost of living is not an issue unless you want western food every day - that's expensive. But real chinese food has so much variety and it's so yummy that I have no problem eating it every day.
Yeah I was gonna say lol... if I had a choice it would far eastern food everytime. I eat sushi about 3 times a week as it is
poverty in Shanghai... there is. But it's unlike other developing countries or anything I've seen anywhere else. You'd expect slums, massive unemployment, people hanging out without anything to do, high crime, vandalism, etc.
Yet even in really poor areas you see shops, small "restaurants", small workshops, people doing some kind of trade (you with western standards would never think of buying or eating stuff there though). You see kids and old people. People just live like the class above them who has more money, except they have much lesser standards to be content.
I accidentially stumbled into some of those areas in Beijing. While they're not beautiful, they're not slummy either. They're just extremely simple and basic. Yet while wandering through them I felt quite safe and not in any way threatened by the people there. They were just doing their everyday business not really minding me.
But if I were in Miami in an area like those, I would have gotten the hell outta there
Poor people here usually do have jobs. They're no bums. But they live very simple existences. For example, those are the people who have a beaten up bicycle and collect cardboard or plastic bottles from household trash and sell a kilogram for a few cents to a recycling place.
Yet there's even poorer people - the migrant workers - who come from central China's rural areas. Those are really poor. They work at construction sites. basically unskilled manual labor. They can also expelled of the town if the local government choses to. That's what happened in Beijing during the Olympics.
Those guys can only dream of the money I make. And yet there's more than enough local Chinese people here in Shanghai who earn a lot more than me.
In a way China strikes me as more capitalist than most parts of the world. Everyone works and works to get ahead. Money is considered a good thing. There are certain rituals for good business, gods to whom you can worship in temples so you make more money. There's lots of LCD advertisement screens everywhere. Like at the elevators at work or even in my apartment's elevators.
This place is pure capitalism minus democracy imho.
but bear in mind, I'm no china expert. those are just my subjective impressions
While i have a very limited amount of experience from china (I was only there for a few weeks) i can say that the taxi's absolutely own big time. I loved taking the cab. Problem is making them understand where you want to go though. If they (at least more than 5% of the population) spoke english i would be all over china.
It's pure awesome and all of you should go there as soon as you can.
Thanks for the info Kwramm...I heard Beijing has its dodgy areas though, no? I definitely look forward to spending some time in Shanghai and Beijing someday...I saw this only the other day (I detest Anthony Bourdain but it's a good watch nonetheless)
yeah, some areas can appear dodgy. yet as foreigner you're pretty safe. at most you'll get pickpocketed, yet that can happen in any big city anywhere in the world. But it's unlikely you get mugged or people on bikes stealing your bags. that won't happen. Only other trick is that people chat you up an wanna be friendly, then invite you to a tea house and present you a horrendous bill. Just ignore the "Hello Mister! Hello! You speak English?!?" girls who love to hang out in luxury mega malls, waiting for foreigners who're looking lost.
So overall for a city of 14 million Beijing is pretty darn safe.
Chinese used to get punished twice as hard if they harm a foreigner. Also there's no gangs or anything like that. Crime here happens somewhere else - corruption, bribery, dangerous products, copyright violations, tax fraud, etc.
and yesthe food! fantastic! I'm hooked on those dumplings! oh and restaurants here are usually busy, loud and bright. no romantic dining here
P.S. sorry for de-railing this thread. I hope nobody minds?
Blenderhead. Well. Depends on what you call dodgy. I'm from a relatively safe country with no real slum areas. Sure we have dodgy areas with lots of crime, rape and such but not really any areas where people live in huts built out of metal plates and where the roads are just dried sand. (Maybe some hidden hobo-ville out in the woods somewhere but i doubt it)
When i was in china i lived in a four star hotel or was it five? Eh five for china maybe. Anyway. If i looked out the window from my hotel room i could see families struggling to get by, living in small huts and people riding on broken rusty bikes piled with plastic bottles and misc items.
It was a pretty big contrast and you felt kinda guilty. We also took a cab through one of those areas a few times. It literally felt like you were in a newscast/national geographic documentary in some unknown poor third world country in a forgotten country... and then 5 minutes later you're in a fancy restaurant eating food that cost more than they earn in a week... or month.
So there's areas that are dodgy like that but according to my chinese workmates there's not really alot of crime. At least not directed towards foreigners. I felt quite safe in beijing to be honest. Here in sweden i feel quite unsafe in some areas.
BTW: Kwramm, Aren't you supposed to be sleeping now! Bah!
My parents live in shanghai, and always come back to the states during Chinese new year. In the past when they have been there, they say the fireworks are insane!
smoke from fireworks... just think how many rockets you have to fire for that :P the guys were busy from 5 am onwards. 1st photo: ca 9 pm. 2nd: midnight. 3rd: 1:30 am
OK I need to ask this being a person currently still feeling the sting of unemployment. Its been around I say 4 months ive been living this life or so. And I check every single day of every single moment every online feed/website/blog etc.
And within the last 1/2 year or so Ive seen studios shutting down left and right. And ive seen some hirings here and there. But for every 1 job I see spring up I see around 20-100 lay off's.
Where are all these people going now? And Are things really going to pick up? I was told before that things would be turning around by the new year but It sadens my heart to hear that there more layoffs instead.
Am I not looking at the right feeds or something or are thing still steadily going down right now? Or are people getting jobs somewhere else and Im overlooking it?
Yeah man, I've been looking for almost 7 months now after getting laid off here in Raleigh. I've had a couple of things almost work out, and then completely fall through at the last minute, it's been pretty frustrating. Some of it has to do with wanting to relocate and a couple places not being interested in spending the money to relocate me. What's really frustrating though is having worked at a studio for almost 3 years, and having zero credits on my resume, through no fault of my own...other than maybe attempting to be loyal to the studio and wanting to finish the project. I really think that the "published title" credential is a bit bogus these days. If you worked on an MMO you might work for 3 or 4 years, and IF the project makes it to ship then you've got 1 title for your time. Meanwhile someone working on casual games might have 3 or 4 titles in one year. I just don't think it's really an accurate gauge of experience anymore. Sorry.../rant
Yeah it sucks looking for work in this climate,but you cant just sit down and expect people to give you a job just because you've worked at a different studio you have to show them your worth it! evaluate your portfolio and see what needs to either be taken out or changed.
The industry is always changing and bright young talent is always popping up! either work hard and improve your art skills or just sit there and hope someone gives you a job just because. I always see industry artist(s) post on these boards because when they get home form there 9-5 studio jobs they work on there own personal art or are learning new techniques that will help them in the future.
Yes it gets hard when your not getting any job leads, I hope you guys have better luck with your job searches but my best advice is to evaluate yourself(s) and the portfolio that you have then start working on some new stuff!
Yeah it sucks looking for work in this climate,but you cant just sit down and expect people to give you a job just because you've worked at a different studio you have to show them your worth it! evaluate your portfolio and see what needs to either be taken out or changed.
The industry is always changing and bright young talent is always popping up! either work hard and improve your art skills or just sit there and hope someone gives you a job just because. I always see industry artist(s) post on these boards because when they get home form there 9-5 studio jobs they work on there own personal art or are learning new techniques that will help them in the future.
Yes it gets hard when your not getting any job leads, I hope you guys have better luck with your job searches but my best advice is to evaluate yourself(s) and the portfolio that you have then start working on some new stuff!
Keep it real,
Arman
Good advice, and I agree completely. That's what I've been trying to channel my frustration into doing is working on new stuff, trying to really push myself, my skills, and the resulting artwork to an ever higher standard, both personally and professionally. I've actually gotten a number of leads, and interviews even, but so far it's always turned into a "we decided to go with someone who had more experience/is local" or the positions turned out to be sort of phantom to begin with. Sorry if I came off a little bitchy in my rant about "published titles," just venting some frustration. I'm not really trying to be like "OOOH POOR ME!" or anything, I've just never been without a job this long. It starts to shake your belief that hard work and a good attitude will eventually pay off.
OK I need to ask this being a person currently still feeling the sting of unemployment. Its been around I say 4 months ive been living this life or so. And I check every single day of every single moment every online feed/website/blog etc.
And within the last 1/2 year or so Ive seen studios shutting down left and right. And ive seen some hirings here and there. But for every 1 job I see spring up I see around 20-100 lay off's.
Where are all these people going now? And Are things really going to pick up? I was told before that things would be turning around by the new year but It sadens my heart to hear that there more layoffs instead.
Am I not looking at the right feeds or something or are thing still steadily going down right now? Or are people getting jobs somewhere else and Im overlooking it?
I've posted this link before but thought I would share it again.
Increasingly, the push at EA is to shift development to cheaper facilities. At the end of fiscal year 09, we expect to have 19 per cent of our employees in low-cost locations versus 13 per cent a year ago, EAs CFO Eric Brown announced in February this year.
The reality is that digital art can be sent over a wire. Any work that can be sent over a wire is being devalued.
I guess you could move to China or wherever necessary to do that work. For younger people it could be a great experience.
Tax breaks for corporations help a bit but that doesn't change the fact that the work is being devalued IMO.
Things won't pick up any time soon. It takes too long to start new studios and franchises. Maybe iPhone apps could be pumped out but that's not going to cover the thousands of people being laid off (plus the kids coming out of the training schools.)
Recommended reading: "Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry Into the Value of Work"
Good advice, and I agree completely. That's what I've been trying to channel my frustration into doing is working on new stuff, trying to really push myself, my skills, and the resulting artwork to an ever higher standard, both personally and professionally. I've actually gotten a number of leads, and interviews even, but so far it's always turned into a "we decided to go with someone who had more experience/is local" or the positions turned out to be sort of phantom to begin with. Sorry if I came off a little bitchy in my rant about "published titles," just venting some frustration. I'm not really trying to be like "OOOH POOR ME!" or anything, I've just never been without a job this long. It starts to shake your belief that hard work and a good attitude will eventually pay off.
Hey Cthogua,
I totally see where your coming from, eventually all of the hard work pays off even if it takes a little longer than expected.
Yeah it sucks looking for work in this climate,but you cant just sit down and expect people to give you a job just because you've worked at a different studio you have to show them your worth it! evaluate your portfolio and see what needs to either be taken out or changed.
The industry is always changing and bright young talent is always popping up! either work hard and improve your art skills or just sit there and hope someone gives you a job just because. I always see industry artist(s) post on these boards because when they get home form there 9-5 studio jobs they work on there own personal art or are learning new techniques that will help them in the future.
Yes it gets hard when your not getting any job leads, I hope you guys have better luck with your job searches but my best advice is to evaluate yourself(s) and the portfolio that you have then start working on some new stuff!
Keep it real,
Arman
I say Dear boy!
A.E. as I know you mean this as a good pat on the back saying "go go go make better art". And I understand your saying this all with good attentions. If you have looked at my work from 4 months ago to now you can see I have completely changed focus and work and I have been working every single day on both freelance and for new art pieces to obtain a new job. I am far from expecting anything. Those days are much in the past after being dropped kick in the face by foreign nations. I do have to say before you go saying such things to really pay attention to whats going on around right now.This entire situation caused me to evaluate myself as both as a person and as a professional in my career.
I know some people here personally who are in the same boat or if not worse but do not wish to speak since its the same tune many of us are suffering right now. Its very easy to say "make better art" when you dont have a clear answer. I by no means say I am a fantastic artist nor deserving but on the other hand with that said I dont expect to evolve into "Exceptionally Talented" as many people who have that title can easily spew off. I am very grateful many of my friends and mentors are such people but at the same time its a complete frustration that people such as this do not know what its like being a middle man artist and can not understand the frustrations of little or no things.
I am doing the best I can in this troubled times to be in my career and be positive so I am very grateful to god I atleast have a chance to freelance with some talented individuals. My times I had spent in game studios were some of the best times of my life being around fantastic positive and exciting people. And I believe that no person should be denied that by being forced to evaluate wither or not they should leave there country. (No offense I was offered 3 times to move to china and I still said no.) Theres a Difference between being some rookie who needs to get his knees scuffed versus someone whos done this quite a number of times.
Let us hope things pick up for every single person!
EDIT: Looking at my wall of Txt response later I'll sum it up quick
I want good things for everyone , I dont think anyone should make such a difficult choice in there life/profession to move far from there country and be so far from friends family and loved ones. (states are one thing but from America to china for example) Nor do I think its fair this is happening to anyone and I pray for every single person makes it back on there feet and finds there bit of happiness. If anything Ive learned this last year that , that is the most important thing you can ever hope for.
I guess you could move to China or wherever necessary to do that work. For younger people it could be a great experience.
That's actually more easily said than done. India, China, Eastern Europe, they already have their fair share of very good artists that can fill mid to senior levels. What they need is people who worked in western studios at AAA titles and who are suited to fill senior/lead positions because they need the experience of those people!
So there's little opportunity here for young artists.
Even if you say, heck I just want a job, I work for a chinese or indian wage, I don't care - even then you're out of luck unless you speak Chinese/Hindi/whatever to fit in their team
Even if you say, heck I just want a job, I work for a chinese or indian wage, I don't care - even then you're out of luck unless you speak Chinese/Hindi/whatever to fit in their team
Yet another reason why- they can all rott in hell. And throw Blenderhead in there with them for being a tottal pussy sellout.
The guys working there have no fault. They try to make a living as you do and they are exploited by the government and by corporations. They would give an arm and a leg to be in your place, to live and raise their children in a modern western society, no matter how hard it would be. Don't underestimate the value of freedom of thought, freedom of movement and basic human rights.
What is happening now is what happened in production years ago. The only difference is that nobody gives a damn about 20yo kids, there are no unions, and the governments only care about the health of the corporations.
Wishful thinking doesn't help much in this situation.
Exactly undoz. Its something I thought of long ago. Soon the only positions left will be management in western societies. All other positions would have been shifted elsewhere.
So unless your going for a MBA.. Your screwed these days. Across the board. Not just games.
The industry is always changing and bright young talent is always popping up! either work hard and improve your art skills or just sit there and hope someone gives you a job just because. I always see industry artist(s) post on these boards because when they get home form there 9-5 studio jobs they work on there own personal art or are learning new techniques that will help them in the future.
Sounds Dog eat Dog to me. Instead of becoming a better artist naturally,and I don't know.. Having a Life. You have to PUSH yourself to be accepted, else there is always someone younger and more talented than you to work for less. So we fight one another for the few positions available versus working together (why do I suddenly feel like I'm preaching like Lamb in Bioshock 2 .
This is the same shit that has been going on for decades. Instead of saying "oh well thats the way things are". I ask, do you try to make it different at your workspace?
the alternative to outsourcing is hiring a ton of people at the beginning of a project and then laying them off when the project is finished. It sucks to get chopped due to the old way of working, I know, I think Mythic was about 250+ people at it's peak.
When the game industry was young you had teams of 10 people or less turning out AAA games, now it looks like the industry is going back to the small sizes and instead of hiring "disposable" work forces they are using outsourcers.
When the game industry was young you had teams of 10 people or less turning out AAA games, now it looks like the industry is going back to the small sizes and instead of hiring "disposable" work forces they are using outsourcers.
Agreed. Though, outsourcers are still disposable, they just cost less per head. With them it's quick n easy to ramp up headcount to work on assets, then ramp back down when the bulk work is done.
Makes $ense to me. Just have to trick experienced art lead types into spending all their time reviewing/training/reviewing/training, and you're set. :poly142:
RE: Layoffs - Sucks balls. There are tallented people there, hopefully they get picked up soon/form a start-up and enjoy life again.
RE: Outsourcing - I got the nice email two weeks ago that my rates are too much "at this time", so my job was sent to a small firm overseas in India. Cost of living in this side of Japan is like dirt cheap (unlike Tokyo), but it's still was too much for these people I guess. The feeling never feels good, but those people need to eat and take care of their families too, besides, I don't have the luxury to be bitter and pissed off, there's work to looks for.
Exactly undoz. Its something I thought of long ago. Soon the only positions left will be management in western societies. All other positions would have been shifted elsewhere.
So unless your going for a MBA.. Your screwed these days. Across the board. Not just games.
There are huge opportunities in the skilled trades.
Ryan: Curious. What? Union works is down. I can see home repair so electricians and such doing well. But they all will eventually be effected as well if there is no one that can afford their services.
Any manufacturing jobs except for a few spots here and there are gone. So other than service positions and farming. What do we have left?
I was talking to my neighbor the other day, he runs his own plumbing business. He says work is way down because people are holding out until the last minute in an effort to not spend money rather than doing regular maintenance and small repairs.
I was just about to go to bed... and dream of flying majestic unicorns and cookies that are in the shape of hamburgers... but I decided to read this thread and to offer my condolences...
But jeeezzee, you guys have really got me worried. Now I'm an up-beat kinda guy, and when I have my mind focused on something, I can usually obtain it (with a shit ton of effort) but reading through these last couple pages, I'm getting a bit worried now.
Either way, I hope the people at Radical who were laid off find a way to get back on their feet in no time...
And as for the rest of you who are saying these horrible horrible (but sadly true) things...
Too much doom and gloom in here. There will always be positions for artists who can think and work with the rest of the team. Outsourcing is for generic stuff that can be summed up in a couple of paragraphs, not complicated things that involve multiple departments, are heavily gameplay-dependent, or have other special requirements that change as the project develops. You value as a first-world artist is your brain (your delicious, delicious brain), not your wacom pen.
If you're the company's 'barrel and crate' guy, you should maybe be getting worried. If you're the guy that takes a major blocker or gray area in the game and takes charge of it, involving others as necessary, communicating etc, you'll be fine.
Ryan: Curious. What? Union works is down. I can see home repair so electricians and such doing well. But they all will eventually be effected as well if there is no one that can afford their services.
Any manufacturing jobs except for a few spots here and there are gone. So other than service positions and farming. What do we have left?
It's true that the skilled trades are suffering big time during this recession (aren't we all?). USA is harder hit than Canada right now. There is a massive glut of housing that needs to be cleared out. This is affecting union and non-union trades equally.
But, once the recession is over AND the inventory is cleared out, the need for tradespeople will be strong.
Here's why I think skilled trades are a good option for some people:
1) Cost of school
VFS tuition $53,250
AI tuition $45,465
BCIT 1st year trades $1147
Private school 1st year trades $4,200
$1,000 for 2nd year, $1,000 for 3rd year, and $2,000 for completing apprenticeship.
The government sees value in getting more people into the trades.
3) Paid overtime
You are paid time and a half for working past eight hours a day and double time for anything past ten hours a day. Working on Saturday is time and a half and Sunday is double time.
So, let's compare a first year artist with a first year electrician.
Hourly rate for 1st term apprentice $18.27 (IBEW electrician, plumbers are about the same)
If you are working 40 hours a week:
electrician is making $38,001.60
artist is making $41,500
If you are working 50 hours a week:
electrician is making $51,704.10
artist is making $41,500
If you are working 60 hours a week:
electrician is making $69,974.10
artist is making $41,500
This is just a first year comparison. Something to consider the next time you are crunching.
This does not include benefits such as medical, dental, and pension plans.
You will also receive regular raises and training as you work towards becoming a journeyman.
4) Long term future
The work of skilled trades can't be shipped overseas. When your toilet breaks, you need a plumber. When you want to add on to your house, you need a carpenter.
Keep in mind that skilled trades work in a lot of areas beyond building houses. For example, electricians can work in residential, commercial and industrial settings. They can work with motors, lighting, power, data and green energy.
You could even combine your art skills with your trades skills. Furniture making? Metalwork?
Just don't become a drywaller :poly124:
The baby boomers will be hitting retirement soon. There will be a shortage of skilled tradespeople in the next ten years. Perfect time to get in.
There's plus and minus with every career. Just thought I'd outline some of the positives of the trades.
The work of skilled trades can't be shipped overseas. When your toilet breaks, you need a plumber. When you want to add on to your house, you need a carpenter.
Keep in mind that skilled trades work in a lot of areas beyond building houses. For example, electricians can work in residential, commercial and industrial settings. They can work with motors, lighting, power, data and green energy.
You could even combine your art skills with your trades skills. Furniture making? Metalwork?
I'd argue this. Anything anything that doesn't have to be done locally can be outsourced, especially furniture and metalwork
However even though companies like outsourcing, the western governments slowly realize that this isn't as good as they thought in the early 2000's.
Because right now the service sector, crumbles and without industrial manufacturing there's very little to sell to other countries, so money comes back into the country.
That's why China is doing well. Lots of exports, not so many imports.
Fortunately games can be exported, and they required skilled labour, so I think there'll be always room for games and entertainment businesses. Especially since entertainment is a highly cultural product and linked to certain regions.
Imagine ALL of hollywood would be outsourced to inda? Sharukh Khan would then probably play the next James Bond
I'd argue this. Anything anything that doesn't have to be done locally can be outsourced, especially furniture and metalwork
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I meant that an artist could be creative and still be a tradesperson. Furniture and metalwork design are just two examples where trades skills can be combined with art skills. This would be more high-end custom work. I could have been clearer.
@ RayanB : I am not really sure where are you going with all of those numbers... I can list probably 20 other industries that you can become RICH very quick. I don't have a job in the game industry yet but I love it even when just thinking about it. I have no idea why are you talking about becoming rich and profits after I am sure that 80 % of the people here just do it because they love it and we all know many other ways to become rich.
And let me just ask you : how much loving are you gonna give to that wire or that pipe ...?
Replies
http://www.nlcnet.org/article.php?id=613
They are a communist country with a terrible human rights track record.....so I wouldn't hold my breath.
Enter the Jobless recovery like we had after the .com bubble burst 10-12 years ago. We rebound on paper but not a lot changes. Places also use the opportunity to trim their overhead (staff) which boosts profits and makes the graph go up.
At least this time people are getting wise and not calling it a recovery until more people are back to work. Hopefully instead of finding a new bubble and pumping it up, we'll get back to reasonable business and step away from the get rich quick BS that always gets us in trouble.
Right now we are in the same boat the animation industry was in the 70's-80's when the undercutting started for them. It was also the death of their industry in a lot of ways. I think we have a few more options than what the had back then.
At least we have ways of making games in small teams and getting them to paying customers. Thats something they didn't have.
On the other hand, if sending labour to Chinese artists is fair game, then I say publishers allow us to buy our games in 'low-income' markets as well, as they routinely sell games for much less in countries with less disposable income.
I now direct my attitude towards the companies that feel they need to continue a steady growth, no matter what the cost on our economy. They don't see the bottom line/long term effect of this, because they are looking for the immediate results. Eventually, when our whole country is unemployed, who do they expect to sell their products to? The third world, underpaid, countries?
We need to work on getting those things back under control so we can compete. But its easier to get mad and smash stuff than it is to fix things... But I guess no one person can fix this so we're better off setting fire to china town and beating up Asian looking kindergarteners, because thats the road were on.
There's quite a gap here - there's enough people driving nice BMWs and Audis, but there's also many who still ride a rusty old bicycle and live from collecting paper or plastic bottles for recycling. And then there's a quite broad middle class inbetween.
Sure that's just the coastal towns, but that alone is a whole lot of people who are doing quite okay...and who are and will be customers of games we make. Hopefully western games too!
The chinese actually have quite good labour laws compared to india or even the USA. Human rights have nothing to do with labour laws.
But the reason why it's so cheap there is because the government is artificially holding their exchange rate down to a low level. If they didn't regulate their currency so strictly they'd soon be costing the same amount as everyone else.
Nope...anyone who says things like 'some fucker in china'. Best read the thread before posting
What's it like working in Shanghai? Did you have much mandarin before you went over? Or is there english spoken in the work environment? How many games studios would you say are in Shanghai? I'd say its really cool living in Shanghai if you got the cash...like living in Tokyo except in China
Actually living costs are quite cheap, except for rent.... although american work mates told me that's cheap too. E.g. I can take a taxi for less than a tramway ticket at home. I can eat at a proper restaurant at lunch (with service, no cafeteria style thing) for the same I paid at the company cantina at my last work place (Funcom/Oslo/Norway). So cost of living is not an issue unless you want western food every day - that's expensive. But real chinese food has so much variety and it's so yummy that I have no problem eating it every day.
Western brand electronics are also expensive - they cost the same as in Europe.
Shopping: there's H&M, C&A, Ikea, Best Buy, Walmart, 7-Eleven, Apple stores, Nike shops, etc. everything you find at home too.
There's other drawbacks though - the internet can be sometimes funny. English books are hard to get. You really live in a BIG city (21 mio). Language can be a problem. But Chinese are very friendly (if you look western) and helpful. Crime involving foreigners is also not an issue. In fact the crime rate is very low. I also feel much safer than let's say London or even Berlin.
In the studio many Chinese artists speak english. The majority speaks a little bit, but the leads and seniors speak more. The company provides training for the artists and offers english courses. However often a Chinese guy acts as translator, to make sure everyone really understands what's to be done.
The work place is also pretty good too and clean. I've definitely seen worse in the west.
Other studios...as far as I know there's Ubi Shanghai, Massive Black, Blizzard has an office there - not sure how much art they do...probably removing all the skeletons from WoW
So it's not just China. Eastern Europe is also quite attractice. Closer mentality wise, easier to travel to and also cheaper than western Europe.
Yeah I was gonna say lol... if I had a choice it would far eastern food everytime. I eat sushi about 3 times a week as it is
I'm surprised at that, I guess there isn't much poverty in Shanghai then...
Thanks for the info!
Yet even in really poor areas you see shops, small "restaurants", small workshops, people doing some kind of trade (you with western standards would never think of buying or eating stuff there though). You see kids and old people. People just live like the class above them who has more money, except they have much lesser standards to be content.
I accidentially stumbled into some of those areas in Beijing. While they're not beautiful, they're not slummy either. They're just extremely simple and basic. Yet while wandering through them I felt quite safe and not in any way threatened by the people there. They were just doing their everyday business not really minding me.
But if I were in Miami in an area like those, I would have gotten the hell outta there
Poor people here usually do have jobs. They're no bums. But they live very simple existences. For example, those are the people who have a beaten up bicycle and collect cardboard or plastic bottles from household trash and sell a kilogram for a few cents to a recycling place.
Yet there's even poorer people - the migrant workers - who come from central China's rural areas. Those are really poor. They work at construction sites. basically unskilled manual labor. They can also expelled of the town if the local government choses to. That's what happened in Beijing during the Olympics.
Those guys can only dream of the money I make. And yet there's more than enough local Chinese people here in Shanghai who earn a lot more than me.
In a way China strikes me as more capitalist than most parts of the world. Everyone works and works to get ahead. Money is considered a good thing. There are certain rituals for good business, gods to whom you can worship in temples so you make more money. There's lots of LCD advertisement screens everywhere. Like at the elevators at work or even in my apartment's elevators.
This place is pure capitalism minus democracy imho.
but bear in mind, I'm no china expert. those are just my subjective impressions
It's pure awesome and all of you should go there as soon as you can.
[ame]
So overall for a city of 14 million Beijing is pretty darn safe.
Chinese used to get punished twice as hard if they harm a foreigner. Also there's no gangs or anything like that. Crime here happens somewhere else - corruption, bribery, dangerous products, copyright violations, tax fraud, etc.
and yesthe food! fantastic! I'm hooked on those dumplings! oh and restaurants here are usually busy, loud and bright. no romantic dining here
P.S. sorry for de-railing this thread. I hope nobody minds?
When i was in china i lived in a four star hotel or was it five? Eh five for china maybe. Anyway. If i looked out the window from my hotel room i could see families struggling to get by, living in small huts and people riding on broken rusty bikes piled with plastic bottles and misc items.
It was a pretty big contrast and you felt kinda guilty. We also took a cab through one of those areas a few times. It literally felt like you were in a newscast/national geographic documentary in some unknown poor third world country in a forgotten country... and then 5 minutes later you're in a fancy restaurant eating food that cost more than they earn in a week... or month.
So there's areas that are dodgy like that but according to my chinese workmates there's not really alot of crime. At least not directed towards foreigners. I felt quite safe in beijing to be honest. Here in sweden i feel quite unsafe in some areas.
BTW: Kwramm, Aren't you supposed to be sleeping now! Bah!
btw, Happy New Year of the Tiger!
A cool-looking bat with tiger-stripes, mind you!
http://boards.polycount.net/showpost.php?p=1078072&postcount=1119
Is that smog, fog or a weird photo?
Yeah man, I've been looking for almost 7 months now after getting laid off here in Raleigh. I've had a couple of things almost work out, and then completely fall through at the last minute, it's been pretty frustrating. Some of it has to do with wanting to relocate and a couple places not being interested in spending the money to relocate me. What's really frustrating though is having worked at a studio for almost 3 years, and having zero credits on my resume, through no fault of my own...other than maybe attempting to be loyal to the studio and wanting to finish the project. I really think that the "published title" credential is a bit bogus these days. If you worked on an MMO you might work for 3 or 4 years, and IF the project makes it to ship then you've got 1 title for your time. Meanwhile someone working on casual games might have 3 or 4 titles in one year. I just don't think it's really an accurate gauge of experience anymore. Sorry.../rant
Hey guys,
Yeah it sucks looking for work in this climate,but you cant just sit down and expect people to give you a job just because you've worked at a different studio you have to show them your worth it! evaluate your portfolio and see what needs to either be taken out or changed.
The industry is always changing and bright young talent is always popping up! either work hard and improve your art skills or just sit there and hope someone gives you a job just because. I always see industry artist(s) post on these boards because when they get home form there 9-5 studio jobs they work on there own personal art or are learning new techniques that will help them in the future.
Yes it gets hard when your not getting any job leads, I hope you guys have better luck with your job searches but my best advice is to evaluate yourself(s) and the portfolio that you have then start working on some new stuff!
Keep it real,
Arman
Good advice, and I agree completely. That's what I've been trying to channel my frustration into doing is working on new stuff, trying to really push myself, my skills, and the resulting artwork to an ever higher standard, both personally and professionally. I've actually gotten a number of leads, and interviews even, but so far it's always turned into a "we decided to go with someone who had more experience/is local" or the positions turned out to be sort of phantom to begin with. Sorry if I came off a little bitchy in my rant about "published titles," just venting some frustration. I'm not really trying to be like "OOOH POOR ME!" or anything, I've just never been without a job this long. It starts to shake your belief that hard work and a good attitude will eventually pay off.
I've posted this link before but thought I would share it again.
http://www.bcbusinessonline.ca/bcb/top-stories/2009/06/03/rough-play-vancouver-video-games
Hey Cthogua,
I totally see where your coming from, eventually all of the hard work pays off even if it takes a little longer than expected.
Cheers,
Arman
I say Dear boy!
A.E. as I know you mean this as a good pat on the back saying "go go go make better art". And I understand your saying this all with good attentions. If you have looked at my work from 4 months ago to now you can see I have completely changed focus and work and I have been working every single day on both freelance and for new art pieces to obtain a new job. I am far from expecting anything. Those days are much in the past after being dropped kick in the face by foreign nations. I do have to say before you go saying such things to really pay attention to whats going on around right now.This entire situation caused me to evaluate myself as both as a person and as a professional in my career.
I know some people here personally who are in the same boat or if not worse but do not wish to speak since its the same tune many of us are suffering right now. Its very easy to say "make better art" when you dont have a clear answer. I by no means say I am a fantastic artist nor deserving but on the other hand with that said I dont expect to evolve into "Exceptionally Talented" as many people who have that title can easily spew off. I am very grateful many of my friends and mentors are such people but at the same time its a complete frustration that people such as this do not know what its like being a middle man artist and can not understand the frustrations of little or no things.
I am doing the best I can in this troubled times to be in my career and be positive so I am very grateful to god I atleast have a chance to freelance with some talented individuals. My times I had spent in game studios were some of the best times of my life being around fantastic positive and exciting people. And I believe that no person should be denied that by being forced to evaluate wither or not they should leave there country. (No offense I was offered 3 times to move to china and I still said no.) Theres a Difference between being some rookie who needs to get his knees scuffed versus someone whos done this quite a number of times.
Let us hope things pick up for every single person!
EDIT: Looking at my wall of Txt response later I'll sum it up quick
I want good things for everyone , I dont think anyone should make such a difficult choice in there life/profession to move far from there country and be so far from friends family and loved ones. (states are one thing but from America to china for example) Nor do I think its fair this is happening to anyone and I pray for every single person makes it back on there feet and finds there bit of happiness. If anything Ive learned this last year that , that is the most important thing you can ever hope for.
That's actually more easily said than done. India, China, Eastern Europe, they already have their fair share of very good artists that can fill mid to senior levels. What they need is people who worked in western studios at AAA titles and who are suited to fill senior/lead positions because they need the experience of those people!
So there's little opportunity here for young artists.
Even if you say, heck I just want a job, I work for a chinese or indian wage, I don't care - even then you're out of luck unless you speak Chinese/Hindi/whatever to fit in their team
Yet another reason why- they can all rott in hell. And throw Blenderhead in there with them for being a tottal pussy sellout.
-Buddikaman
wait, wut?
What is happening now is what happened in production years ago. The only difference is that nobody gives a damn about 20yo kids, there are no unions, and the governments only care about the health of the corporations.
Wishful thinking doesn't help much in this situation.
So unless your going for a MBA.. Your screwed these days. Across the board. Not just games.
Viva La Juegos Independientes !
Sounds Dog eat Dog to me. Instead of becoming a better artist naturally,and I don't know.. Having a Life. You have to PUSH yourself to be accepted, else there is always someone younger and more talented than you to work for less. So we fight one another for the few positions available versus working together (why do I suddenly feel like I'm preaching like Lamb in Bioshock 2
This is the same shit that has been going on for decades. Instead of saying "oh well thats the way things are". I ask, do you try to make it different at your workspace?
When the game industry was young you had teams of 10 people or less turning out AAA games, now it looks like the industry is going back to the small sizes and instead of hiring "disposable" work forces they are using outsourcers.
Agreed. Though, outsourcers are still disposable, they just cost less per head. With them it's quick n easy to ramp up headcount to work on assets, then ramp back down when the bulk work is done.
Makes $ense to me. Just have to trick experienced art lead types into spending all their time reviewing/training/reviewing/training, and you're set. :poly142:
RE: Outsourcing - I got the nice email two weeks ago that my rates are too much "at this time", so my job was sent to a small firm overseas in India. Cost of living in this side of Japan is like dirt cheap (unlike Tokyo), but it's still was too much for these people I guess. The feeling never feels good, but those people need to eat and take care of their families too, besides, I don't have the luxury to be bitter and pissed off, there's work to looks for.
There are huge opportunities in the skilled trades.
Any manufacturing jobs except for a few spots here and there are gone. So other than service positions and farming. What do we have left?
But jeeezzee, you guys have really got me worried. Now I'm an up-beat kinda guy, and when I have my mind focused on something, I can usually obtain it (with a shit ton of effort) but reading through these last couple pages, I'm getting a bit worried now.
Either way, I hope the people at Radical who were laid off find a way to get back on their feet in no time...
And as for the rest of you who are saying these horrible horrible (but sadly true) things...
NA NA NA I'M NOT LISTENING! :P
If you're the company's 'barrel and crate' guy, you should maybe be getting worried. If you're the guy that takes a major blocker or gray area in the game and takes charge of it, involving others as necessary, communicating etc, you'll be fine.
It's true that the skilled trades are suffering big time during this recession (aren't we all?). USA is harder hit than Canada right now. There is a massive glut of housing that needs to be cleared out. This is affecting union and non-union trades equally.
But, once the recession is over AND the inventory is cleared out, the need for tradespeople will be strong.
Here's why I think skilled trades are a good option for some people:
1) Cost of school
AI tuition $45,465
BCIT 1st year trades $1147
Private school 1st year trades $4,200
I'll use the student loan calculator here:
http://tools.canlearn.ca/cslgs-scpse/cln-cln/40/crp-lrc/calculer-calculate-eng.do
Total cost of 1 year at VFS = $76,507.45
Total cost of 1st year trades training (Private school) = $6,034.39
Prime rate is very low right now. If the prime rate goes up to 5%, you can add on another $10,000 to the cost of VFS and $800 to trade school.
You'll be working for a long time before your student loans are paid off if you go to VFS or AI.
$1,000 for 2nd year, $1,000 for 3rd year, and $2,000 for completing apprenticeship.
The government sees value in getting more people into the trades.
So, let's compare a first year artist with a first year electrician.
Average salary for 1st year games artist $41,500
http://www.animationarena.com/video-game-salary.html
(I think it's a bit high but I will use it)
or $42,672
http://www.gamecareerguide.com/features/416/the_game_industry_salary_survey_2007.php?page=3
Hourly rate for 1st term apprentice $18.27 (IBEW electrician, plumbers are about the same)
If you are working 40 hours a week:
electrician is making $38,001.60
artist is making $41,500
If you are working 50 hours a week:
electrician is making $51,704.10
artist is making $41,500
If you are working 60 hours a week:
electrician is making $69,974.10
artist is making $41,500
This is just a first year comparison. Something to consider the next time you are crunching.
This does not include benefits such as medical, dental, and pension plans.
You will also receive regular raises and training as you work towards becoming a journeyman.
Keep in mind that skilled trades work in a lot of areas beyond building houses. For example, electricians can work in residential, commercial and industrial settings. They can work with motors, lighting, power, data and green energy.
You could even combine your art skills with your trades skills. Furniture making? Metalwork?
Just don't become a drywaller :poly124:
The baby boomers will be hitting retirement soon. There will be a shortage of skilled tradespeople in the next ten years. Perfect time to get in.
That's a very strange article. It says an EP's average salary is $50k? And talks about "entry-level" TD's and leads.
I'd argue this. Anything anything that doesn't have to be done locally can be outsourced, especially furniture and metalwork
However even though companies like outsourcing, the western governments slowly realize that this isn't as good as they thought in the early 2000's.
Because right now the service sector, crumbles and without industrial manufacturing there's very little to sell to other countries, so money comes back into the country.
That's why China is doing well. Lots of exports, not so many imports.
Fortunately games can be exported, and they required skilled labour, so I think there'll be always room for games and entertainment businesses. Especially since entertainment is a highly cultural product and linked to certain regions.
Imagine ALL of hollywood would be outsourced to inda? Sharukh Khan would then probably play the next James Bond
First Google hit I found. Like I said, it sounded wrong to me.
Added another link that gives a similar figure. Again, I think it's a bit too high.
I meant that an artist could be creative and still be a tradesperson. Furniture and metalwork design are just two examples where trades skills can be combined with art skills. This would be more high-end custom work. I could have been clearer.
And let me just ask you : how much loving are you gonna give to that wire or that pipe ...?