Second, I have a question. I know Radical hires on site contractors (around 6-month terms, for example). If layoff includes them does that mean the rest of their contract is still honored? Or is there a waiver before you get on board, i.e. "We owe you nothing in the event of an unforeseen layoff. Sign here to agree.." (This doesn't have to be Radical specific, but maybe focussing on Van devs in general).
Van seems to be rocking job offer wise (just going by what I see on job boards). Good luck though. Enjoy the Olympics hoopla, get more snow than rain, etc. etc.
I expect the layoffs will keep on coming. With the way the United states is spending and borrowing we'll soon see the recession get even worse. All these stimulus packages, and spending is only prolonging whats to come.
Way to bite the hand that feeds you Jesse. After reading Bobby's interview in Game Informer last month, I do have a respect for him.
This is horrible news but people had to expect that music games were going down in terms of sales. This was obviously a reaction of going from 20+ SKUs to 10 SKUs.
Once again, I am sorry for all those affected by these moves and I hope everyone lands on their feet. Hopefully more indie game studios form from all this and really push the industry forward with innovation.
Van seems to be rocking job offer wise (just going by what I see on job boards). Good luck though. Enjoy the Olympics hoopla, get more snow than rain, etc. etc.
...Really? Outside of BCG and UFG AND Relic (sorry adam) , is it really that great? EA just cut a bunch of people, small companies have made cuts, now Radical. Even if there are job offers, there's a shit ton of people fighting for that job. Same could be said about anywhere, sure, but Vancouver is really over saturated when it comes to that. And..fuck the Olympics, they're raping the city :P
I feel bad for those affected, I've always loved Radical - but, out of the ashes I hope new companies will form. Would be great to see some new indie companies here with fresh ideas.
Way to bite the hand that feeds you Jesse. After reading Bobby's interview in Game Informer last month, I do have a respect for him.
haha yeah but i was just playing around and I agree with you after I read the same interview. I was just trying to lighten the mood a bit. I know what it's like to be layed off like many people here and it sucks.
...Really? Outside of BCG and UFG, is it really that great?
If somebody already in Van is not picky and badly needs a 3d job, there's a lot of work between feature film, vfx, and seriousgames (3d training dev at BCIT for example). Lots of small paying 3d gigs too. Time in other similar industries can still count once you get back into gamedev and haggle your pay.
haha yeah but i was just playing around and I agree with you after I read the same interview. I was just trying to lighten the mood a bit. I know what it's like to be layed off like many people here and it sucks.
Damn, I should take back that email I sent to Bobby then. I will tell him I was just joking.
...Really? Outside of BCG and UFG, is it really that great? EA just cut a bunch of people, small companies have made cuts, now Radical. Even if there are job offers, there's a shit ton of people fighting for that job. Same could be said about anywhere, sure, but Vancouver is really over saturated when it comes to that. And..fuck the Olympics, they're raping the city :P
Damn that sucks. Looks like they just put off their layoff until much later and they really didn't weather the storm that much better than the other big players =/
It probably would have been a lot worse if they hadn't hitched their wagon to Blizzard.
I think Take2 is gearing up to do another round of 400+ layoffs this year also so we're not out of the woods yet...
...Really? Outside of BCG and UFG, is it really that great? EA just cut a bunch of people, small companies have made cuts, now Radical. Even if there are job offers, there's a shit ton of people fighting for that job. Same could be said about anywhere, sure, but Vancouver is really over saturated when it comes to that. And..fuck the Olympics, they're raping the city :P
I feel bad for those affected, I've always loved Radical - but, out of the ashes I hope new companies will form. Would be great to see some new indie companies here with fresh ideas.
Geez man, This is terrible. I hope everyone lands on their feet. It seems like every week there is a hundred layoffs here, a hundred there. And then you go look on the job boards like gamasutra there is only a handful of new positions a week. The competition is stiff, and things don't feel like they are getting better. After getting laid off I've been doing freelance work on small indie games until the local studios start to gain their funding back and hire again, but things aren't looking great.
I don't want to be all doom and gloom. After working on a few indie projects I'm really starting to see that market grow. It's something I would love to see because I'm starting to enjoy working with 5,10,15 other guys on a smaller game over working at a studio of 150-200. If smaller games like Torchlight start to become more popular I'm all for that!
Vancouver is going to be fine. Lets not forget what made vancouver a game development hub in the first place - - LAYOFFS / disgruntled EA employees. They started new companies and allowed it to flourish. I'm sure there are many other factors, but this is definitely one of the big reasons. I'm betting that many more studios pop up in Vancouver over the next couple of years, or they move out of BC to the east where the government will assist them.
...or they move out of BC to the east where the government will assist them.
This and I hope to see a lot more independent development. More contributions to the various current and up coming application stores. Down with publishers!
OK I need to ask this being a person currently still feeling the sting of unemployment. Its been around I say 4 months ive been living this life or so. And I check every single day of every single moment every online feed/website/blog etc.
And within the last 1/2 year or so Ive seen studios shutting down left and right. And ive seen some hirings here and there. But for every 1 job I see spring up I see around 20-100 lay off's.
Where are all these people going now? And Are things really going to pick up? I was told before that things would be turning around by the new year but It sadens my heart to hear that there more layoffs instead.
Am I not looking at the right feeds or something or are thing still steadily going down right now? Or are people getting jobs somewhere else and Im overlooking it?
OK I need to ask this being a person currently still feeling the sting of unemployment. Its been around I say 4 months ive been living this life or so. And I check every single day of every single moment every online feed/website/blog etc.
And within the last 1/2 year or so Ive seen studios shutting down left and right. And ive seen some hirings here and there. But for every 1 job I see spring up I see around 20-100 lay off's.
Where are all these people going now? And Are things really going to pick up? I was told before that things would be turning around by the new year but It sadens my heart to hear that there more layoffs instead.
Am I not looking at the right feeds or something or are thing still steadily going down right now? Or are people getting jobs somewhere else and Im overlooking it?
Combine everything you said with the rise in "good" Chinese outsourcing...
This sucks on multiple levels. In an indirect way, I am affected by this too. More job competition which means even less opportunity. Even applying outside of games, to animation and vfx is tough. I was kind of hoping Blackbox would have been the last of the big layoffs.
Hopefully all these layoffs have or will lead to new studios down the road, that would be one positive thing.:)
OK I need to ask this being a person currently still feeling the sting of unemployment. Its been around I say 4 months ive been living this life or so. And I check every single day of every single moment every online feed/website/blog etc.
And within the last 1/2 year or so Ive seen studios shutting down left and right. And ive seen some hirings here and there. But for every 1 job I see spring up I see around 20-100 lay off's.
Where are all these people going now? And Are things really going to pick up? I was told before that things would be turning around by the new year but It sadens my heart to hear that there more layoffs instead.
Am I not looking at the right feeds or something or are thing still steadily going down right now? Or are people getting jobs somewhere else and Im overlooking it?
I'm sorry for the guys at Radical
I've been following the job market for a while and your estimate is correct.
Even if the economy recovers (which will take a couple of years), outsourcing to China is becoming the norm. A guy there is payed with $2/hour, not to mention the rest of the operating costs compared to the west. If quality was a problem until now, their work is improving very fast year by year.
What the studios are looking now are leads to manage the outsourcing art.
I don't see the indie studios as a way out, because they need and do outsourcing even more.
You will always have a small core team of people working on the game, not just one lead and tons of guys from China. It doesn't matter if China is getting better. You will always need to have at least 6 - 12 artists on a game in house. I just cant see everything but the management getting outsourced.
Always very sad to see studios close, and others make huge cuts. Very scary right now. I would say 1 in 10 industry vets (3+ years) have never been layedoff. Hope everyone lands on there feet soon.
Yeah man, fuck outsourcing! I dont care how "beneficial" it might be financially, it is killing the jobs for western artists. I mean, i would seriously work for 10$ an hour if i had too, better me than some fucker in china. The one industry job i had, it was the whole environment teams job to essentially manage and TEACH the chinese outsources how to make proper game art. None of the environment artists created game art, which was very frustrating.
Besides that, as someone still trying to "break" into the industry and establish my foothold at a studio, im starting to wonder if this is really a viable career choice. Not only does the market seem to be saturated with competition, especially with the number of schools cranking out graduates these days, but even if you land a job, not only do you have to worry about the chinese, but once the game is released you might be without a job and back to were you started. Thats not exactly what i call job security. Am i missing something here?
Yeah man, fuck outsourcing! I dont care how "beneficial" it might be financially, it is killing the jobs for western artists. I mean, i would seriously work for 10$ an hour if i had too, better me than some fucker in china. The one industry job i had, it was the whole environment teams job to essentially manage and TEACH the chinese outsources how to make proper game art. None of the environment artists created game art, which was very frustrating.
It depends on what kind of outsorcing you're talking about.
There're a few good teams in the Eastern Europe that are providing really high-quality assets and deliver stuff in time, however, they don't work for $ 2/hr. (Plus, they still need management and art-direction)
As far as outsorcing in China goes... Some companies are apparently fine with 90 % of assets being non-usable rubbish, some companies just can't manage the workload ( like making over 9000 head models for a sport-sim or whatever).
I see no reason to be afraid of outsorcing, simply because there're not that much reliable outsorcers and the game market will recover from recession at some point. They will need new people quite soon.
You can't outsource game art like you can a simpsons episode. These foriegn companies are good at produce very generic art that they are trained to make. But why pay someone to make models that have been done before? It doesn't make sense, you pay artists to push the envelope technology wise, or to establish a new brand. These low priced over sees artists just don't compete in this realm.
Sure, if you want someone to model a barrel, or to model a combat dude that looks like he's out of counterstrike, i'm sure there are plenty of studios that can do it on the cheap.
I did QA once for art made in India a couple years ago. It was a joke. Turn around on bugs was forever and the assets weren't very good or complicated to begin with.
Just out of interest...why does china do all the outsourceing? why cant we just set up our own little outsourcing company and get on the bandwagon instead of complaining about less jobs?
Yeah man, fuck outsourcing! I dont care how "beneficial" it might be financially, it is killing the jobs for western artists. I mean, i would seriously work for 10$ an hour if i had too, better me than some fucker in china.
Out of order much? The whiff of racism off you is disguisting. If your work sucks don't blame other people. Why not move to China yourself? That way you will be able to live very comfortably on $8 an hour.
If I was to be afraid of any nations' people taking my jobs, it would be the russians. Them boys got skills.
You can't outsource game art like you can a simpsons episode. These foriegn companies are good at produce very generic art that they are trained to make. But why pay someone to make models that have been done before? It doesn't make sense, you pay artists to push the envelope technology wise, or to establish a new brand. These low priced over sees artists just don't compete in this realm.
Again with the nasty whiff of racist undertone. Read through Character Modeling 3 lately? The work Massive Black did on Killzone 2 is stellar...and certainly not 'generic'...no, that's what I'd call a lot of work I see on western games art boards unfortunately. Wonder how many armoured space marines show up on chinese boards...
Just out of interest...why does china do all the outsourceing? why cant we just set up our own little outsourcing company and get on the bandwagon instead of complaining about less jobs?
Again with the nasty whiff of racist undertone. Read through Character Modeling 3 lately? The work Massive Black did on Killzone 2 is stellar...and certainly not 'generic'...no, that's what I'd call a lot of work I see on western games art boards unfortunately. Wonder how many armoured space marines show up on chinese boards...
And there're lots of really talented artists in China, since their classical art schooling is really good
but your exaggerated political correctness when it comes to crappy game assets is quite intimidating.
because there's kickass artists in china. I kid you not and I'm not saying this because I work there. To be quite honest, I'm happy they can't leave their country easily and that their english isn't very good, or much more people in the west would have no jobs (yeah I know this sounds kinda wrong, but really, there's some talented folks here...and overall there's LOTS of people in China!)
There's talent, it's cheap, it's plentiful, there's a strong work ethic, and there are good schools and lots of books in Chinese about ZBrush, Max, Maya, you-name-it. However it's all in Chinese :P
Biggest problem is telling them what to do, due to mentality and language barrier. But once they know what you want, you get really good results. QA is also sometimes an issue, but that often also seems to boil down to understanding/mentality issues. Once you address stuff it most likely won't happen again. I have to say I'm quite happy to work with the Chinese artists here.
so do we as western artists just admit defeat? or do we come to some sort of compromise and fight back?
I imagine something like the guys at 3 point studios have done where some geniunely creative talented individuals band together to make impressive game art. Well Im guessing at a compromised/competitive cost - somewhere between inflated western prices and tiny eastern prices?
I know companies might still want to deal with the chinese/whatever because they are always going to be cheaper but Im sure there are benefits to working with western outsourcing? almost no language/cultural barrier for west studios etc.
A. Two cases of 'plagiarism' (read: not plagiarism) does not justify racism against a nation a billion strong.
B.Those are 'studies'...not plagiarism...can't see the point of it myself, but Slip himself says he doesn't mind people doing it (not that he sees the point either). Russians have done the same thing, for the record.
so do we as western artists just admit defeat? or do we come to some sort of compromise and fight back?.
I don't have any exact numbers, but how many studios rely on outsorcing? How much of their work is outsorced?
There's plenty of work for Westerners, and what's more important, there's a much more demanding market in the West.
The situation is remotely similar to what happened in electronics, where R&D is handled in US/Europe, and production is all China/Taiwan based;
but still, majority of studios work tend to hire in-house staff and there're no reasons for them to stop.
A. Two cases of 'plagiarism' (read: not plagiarism) does not justify racism against a nation a billion strong.
B.Those are 'studies'...not plagiarism...can't see the point of it myself, but Slip himself says he doesn't mind people doing it (not that he sees the point either). Russians have done the same thing, for the record.
Blenderhead, lead the supressed people of China and let the justice prevail.
You're right. We are bad and racist and probably pour salt on open wounds of your issues.
And within the last 1/2 year or so Ive seen studios shutting down left and right. And ive seen some hirings here and there. But for every 1 job I see spring up I see around 20-100 lay off's
This is why I keep suggesting to people looking for advice here, to go to college for an alternative career while working on a portfolio. It's sad to see, but I think the greed of game companies will continue to support outsourcing, and design jobs may never return.
That's also why, I wish if the government wants to offer incentives to companies, that they would make an incentive based on how many people the employ within our country. Giving them money for 'stimulation' won't automatically translate into more jobs here
Just hope these chinese eventually wake up and demand the same kind of labor laws and work ethics we have in Europe and the US, that's the best way to balance out outsourcing... Who knows when and if that will happen.
Replies
Second, I have a question. I know Radical hires on site contractors (around 6-month terms, for example). If layoff includes them does that mean the rest of their contract is still honored? Or is there a waiver before you get on board, i.e. "We owe you nothing in the event of an unforeseen layoff. Sign here to agree.." (This doesn't have to be Radical specific, but maybe focussing on Van devs in general).
Van seems to be rocking job offer wise (just going by what I see on job boards). Good luck though. Enjoy the Olympics hoopla, get more snow than rain, etc. etc.
I truly deeply hope this becomes a fascinating new beginning for you, guys.
I didn't know it ever stopped
a far more likely outcome: http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/11/news/economy/presidents_economic_report/index.htm?hpt=T2
This is horrible news but people had to expect that music games were going down in terms of sales. This was obviously a reaction of going from 20+ SKUs to 10 SKUs.
Once again, I am sorry for all those affected by these moves and I hope everyone lands on their feet. Hopefully more indie game studios form from all this and really push the industry forward with innovation.
...Really? Outside of BCG and UFG AND Relic (sorry adam) , is it really that great? EA just cut a bunch of people, small companies have made cuts, now Radical. Even if there are job offers, there's a shit ton of people fighting for that job. Same could be said about anywhere, sure, but Vancouver is really over saturated when it comes to that. And..fuck the Olympics, they're raping the city :P
I feel bad for those affected, I've always loved Radical - but, out of the ashes I hope new companies will form. Would be great to see some new indie companies here with fresh ideas.
haha yeah but i was just playing around and I agree with you after I read the same interview. I was just trying to lighten the mood a bit. I know what it's like to be layed off like many people here and it sucks.
If somebody already in Van is not picky and badly needs a 3d job, there's a lot of work between feature film, vfx, and seriousgames (3d training dev at BCIT for example). Lots of small paying 3d gigs too. Time in other similar industries can still count once you get back into gamedev and haggle your pay.
Damn, I should take back that email I sent to Bobby then. I will tell him I was just joking.
Sorry Radicalites!
Ditto
Well I guess it was a good run for me then. hahahaha
It probably would have been a lot worse if they hadn't hitched their wagon to Blizzard.
I think Take2 is gearing up to do another round of 400+ layoffs this year also so we're not out of the woods yet...
And Relic. We're doing awesome
I don't want to be all doom and gloom. After working on a few indie projects I'm really starting to see that market grow. It's something I would love to see because I'm starting to enjoy working with 5,10,15 other guys on a smaller game over working at a studio of 150-200. If smaller games like Torchlight start to become more popular I'm all for that!
Oh, and Next Level!
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/27125/British_Columbia_Proposes_Developer_Tax_Credits.php
Vancouver is going to be fine. Lets not forget what made vancouver a game development hub in the first place - - LAYOFFS / disgruntled EA employees. They started new companies and allowed it to flourish. I'm sure there are many other factors, but this is definitely one of the big reasons. I'm betting that many more studios pop up in Vancouver over the next couple of years, or they move out of BC to the east where the government will assist them.
This and I hope to see a lot more independent development. More contributions to the various current and up coming application stores. Down with publishers!
And within the last 1/2 year or so Ive seen studios shutting down left and right. And ive seen some hirings here and there. But for every 1 job I see spring up I see around 20-100 lay off's.
Where are all these people going now? And Are things really going to pick up? I was told before that things would be turning around by the new year but It sadens my heart to hear that there more layoffs instead.
Am I not looking at the right feeds or something or are thing still steadily going down right now? Or are people getting jobs somewhere else and Im overlooking it?
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/27213/Layoffs_Hit_Activision_Studios_Radical_Luxoflux_Neversoft_Affected.php
Combine everything you said with the rise in "good" Chinese outsourcing...
http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=69486
That quality for $8/hr. Awesomesauce. Hear that sound? It's the west crumbling.
Come on guy, you can charge a little more for your work.
This sucks on multiple levels. In an indirect way, I am affected by this too. More job competition which means even less opportunity. Even applying outside of games, to animation and vfx is tough. I was kind of hoping Blackbox would have been the last of the big layoffs.
Hopefully all these layoffs have or will lead to new studios down the road, that would be one positive thing.:)
Radical studio, i remember visited their place twice when i was in vanc.
I'm sorry for the guys at Radical
I've been following the job market for a while and your estimate is correct.
Even if the economy recovers (which will take a couple of years), outsourcing to China is becoming the norm. A guy there is payed with $2/hour, not to mention the rest of the operating costs compared to the west. If quality was a problem until now, their work is improving very fast year by year.
What the studios are looking now are leads to manage the outsourcing art.
I don't see the indie studios as a way out, because they need and do outsourcing even more.
Always very sad to see studios close, and others make huge cuts. Very scary right now. I would say 1 in 10 industry vets (3+ years) have never been layedoff. Hope everyone lands on there feet soon.
Besides that, as someone still trying to "break" into the industry and establish my foothold at a studio, im starting to wonder if this is really a viable career choice. Not only does the market seem to be saturated with competition, especially with the number of schools cranking out graduates these days, but even if you land a job, not only do you have to worry about the chinese, but once the game is released you might be without a job and back to were you started. Thats not exactly what i call job security. Am i missing something here?
-Buddikaman
It depends on what kind of outsorcing you're talking about.
There're a few good teams in the Eastern Europe that are providing really high-quality assets and deliver stuff in time, however, they don't work for $ 2/hr. (Plus, they still need management and art-direction)
As far as outsorcing in China goes... Some companies are apparently fine with 90 % of assets being non-usable rubbish, some companies just can't manage the workload ( like making over 9000 head models for a sport-sim or whatever).
I see no reason to be afraid of outsorcing, simply because there're not that much reliable outsorcers and the game market will recover from recession at some point. They will need new people quite soon.
Sure, if you want someone to model a barrel, or to model a combat dude that looks like he's out of counterstrike, i'm sure there are plenty of studios that can do it on the cheap.
I did QA once for art made in India a couple years ago. It was a joke. Turn around on bugs was forever and the assets weren't very good or complicated to begin with.
Out of order much? The whiff of racism off you is disguisting. If your work sucks don't blame other people. Why not move to China yourself? That way you will be able to live very comfortably on $8 an hour.
If I was to be afraid of any nations' people taking my jobs, it would be the russians. Them boys got skills.
Again with the nasty whiff of racist undertone. Read through Character Modeling 3 lately? The work Massive Black did on Killzone 2 is stellar...and certainly not 'generic'...no, that's what I'd call a lot of work I see on western games art boards unfortunately. Wonder how many armoured space marines show up on chinese boards...
http://www.vfxwages.com/news/2010/jan/11/working-in-china/
same with India, probably.
http://bbs.game798.com/showtopic-68580.html
http://bbs.game798.com/showtopic-72450.html
Not spacemarines, but I have zero respect for plagiarism.
And there're lots of really talented artists in China, since their classical art schooling is really good
but your exaggerated political correctness when it comes to crappy game assets is quite intimidating.
There's talent, it's cheap, it's plentiful, there's a strong work ethic, and there are good schools and lots of books in Chinese about ZBrush, Max, Maya, you-name-it. However it's all in Chinese :P
Biggest problem is telling them what to do, due to mentality and language barrier. But once they know what you want, you get really good results. QA is also sometimes an issue, but that often also seems to boil down to understanding/mentality issues. Once you address stuff it most likely won't happen again. I have to say I'm quite happy to work with the Chinese artists here.
so do we as western artists just admit defeat? or do we come to some sort of compromise and fight back?
I imagine something like the guys at 3 point studios have done where some geniunely creative talented individuals band together to make impressive game art. Well Im guessing at a compromised/competitive cost - somewhere between inflated western prices and tiny eastern prices?
I know companies might still want to deal with the chinese/whatever because they are always going to be cheaper but Im sure there are benefits to working with western outsourcing? almost no language/cultural barrier for west studios etc.
lol
A. Two cases of 'plagiarism' (read: not plagiarism) does not justify racism against a nation a billion strong.
B.Those are 'studies'...not plagiarism...can't see the point of it myself, but Slip himself says he doesn't mind people doing it (not that he sees the point either). Russians have done the same thing, for the record.
I don't have any exact numbers, but how many studios rely on outsorcing? How much of their work is outsorced?
There's plenty of work for Westerners, and what's more important, there's a much more demanding market in the West.
The situation is remotely similar to what happened in electronics, where R&D is handled in US/Europe, and production is all China/Taiwan based;
but still, majority of studios work tend to hire in-house staff and there're no reasons for them to stop.
Blenderhead, lead the supressed people of China and let the justice prevail.
You're right. We are bad and racist and probably pour salt on open wounds of your issues.
This is why I keep suggesting to people looking for advice here, to go to college for an alternative career while working on a portfolio. It's sad to see, but I think the greed of game companies will continue to support outsourcing, and design jobs may never return.
That's also why, I wish if the government wants to offer incentives to companies, that they would make an incentive based on how many people the employ within our country. Giving them money for 'stimulation' won't automatically translate into more jobs here