rejecting self destructive input
polycounter lvl 18
Hey guys, we've all had the experience of being subjected to input that we don't want. I used to be the type of guy to self sacrifice and accept everything, just to keep the peace. I have fortunately snapped and am this way no longer.
I'm finding that my strategy for rejecting shitty input, however, is very primitive, simply because i've never done it before. in my gut, i feel like saying "fuck you! eat shit!" but obviously that's ridiculous, and not at all tactful. I also suspect that in my recent state, i may be more prone to see insults when none exist. maybe they do though. It's hard for me to tell right now.
SO lets say i come to you and say "that painting that you did of that warrior with an axe is okay for young people, but you should paint something more befitting of your age. do up a illustration of some nice people playing cards out by the beach or something like that -- something more mature"
and then you say -- ??
in my gut, i want to say "take your shitty opinion about what's mature and what's not and stuff it up your conservative unenlightened so-and-so. hows about I do what i want and you shut the fuck up?"
this does NOT help anything, i think. I would like a new strategy.
I'm finding that my strategy for rejecting shitty input, however, is very primitive, simply because i've never done it before. in my gut, i feel like saying "fuck you! eat shit!" but obviously that's ridiculous, and not at all tactful. I also suspect that in my recent state, i may be more prone to see insults when none exist. maybe they do though. It's hard for me to tell right now.
SO lets say i come to you and say "that painting that you did of that warrior with an axe is okay for young people, but you should paint something more befitting of your age. do up a illustration of some nice people playing cards out by the beach or something like that -- something more mature"
and then you say -- ??
in my gut, i want to say "take your shitty opinion about what's mature and what's not and stuff it up your conservative unenlightened so-and-so. hows about I do what i want and you shut the fuck up?"
this does NOT help anything, i think. I would like a new strategy.
Replies
"Blow me."
Ok, maybe not. Possibly more along the lines of:
"Immature as you might view it, I enjoy painting warriors with axes, and that's really the whole point of my doing art. Enjoyment (well, that and personal betterment, but that's besides the point for the moment). Ergo, I'll continue to paint warriors with axes, thank you very much."
I'd probably still go with the former response, though, because let's face it, that's just a dick thing to say to you.
And then don't do it.
If they come back later, "Eh, I didn't feel like it".
Throw in a shrug for extra effect.
If they continue to bother you, then you tell them to go fuck themselves.
I suppose just generally... but really this would be important in the work place too
in general, I have a similar feeling as you. I am perhaps spiteful so I usually reply with something to remind the person that this doodling and painting and playing games is technically training for my job, and how is their shitty job designing kerb-stones going anyway, and what's that, I get paid more than you too, oh what a shame!? It's hard but trying to remember that being an artist is awesome and they probably have a much more boring life. In cases where this is not true its too hard to blag yourself, I guess then it is tough luck.
That's what it comes down to for me, convincing myself that im having so much fun that they cannot possibly be serious! It sounds silly but somehow works, stops me from blowing up at people really badly. Mostly anyway.
if it is in the workplace and the critique is unrequested or inappropriate then tell them so but nicely, if it continues yuo can go through channels to make it stop, but it's better to be straight with the people I find, they are probably trying to help in their own way. If you know for a fact they are being dicks then a straight up 'if I need your critique I will request it, thank you, good bye' would be fine I think.
it's interesting to consider these situations objectively, i haven't done that before, it has helped me I think replying to this, so for that, thanks!
Maybe this is irrelevant but it comes down to what you accept as something you do. As a professional there is always a hierarchy and when you get paid to do something you do the job as it is. When the nature of the job changes beyond what you get paid to do, you ask for a raise. I still got a bonus 4 months after I left since I did a great job, but my psyche wouldn't allow me to continue.
Pretty bizarre an argument I know. It was one person's view against another's.
I think it's a good exercise to let people crit your work. Once in awhile you get a nugget of truth in all the bullshit. And Bullshit washes off right off, no need to get in s tizzy if someone tells you you orc look more like a Unicorn, and in their opinion you should really do something less fantasy- Homo -Vamperotica is where it is at man.
Usually I find people who give opinions like this are people who have been put in the position where they can critique, but have no idea what they are doing. I got a lot of critiques like this from people who weren't artists, like the career service people at my school, they often told students to completely change their pieces, instead of telling them how to improve what they have, and their opinions were usually based on personal feelings and tastes. These critiques are usually pointless because if you listen to them, you only end up making that one person happy, and then the next person that comes along probably will have something else to say about it.
In the end you have to remember its your work, think back to why you are doing it, and who you want to reach and impress, and take each persons opinion with a grain of salt and only choose to listen to the people who you personally feel are trying to help you. If you are a good artist and you have a good enough artistic sense you will know who to listen to and who to not.
And as far as your response, just thank them for their opinion and tell them you will consider it. Then you have every right to consider it and not listen to it. Or ask them for a more specific critique on the art you have asked them to critique.
I go with "no." That's a pretty solid conversation ender.
If they ask why not, I follow up with "I don't want to." Problem solved!
The topic reminds me of a life drawing teacher I once had. She couldn't draw, or at least I never saw her do anything but scribble horizontal lines on the chalkboard, and was quite round, sporting a silver mullet (this bit is important). She was insistent on bright colours being "immature," comparing pastel and any other bright colour to children with crayons; I can see the value of deeper, richer colours, but it was clear she was a fraud. I've probably told this story before, but oh well.
As for how to respond to such idiocy, I say let your ego slide and just ignore them.
Shit. Seconded.
Personally, I would just nod my head and say something along the lines of... that sounds absolutely boring, then laugh and say maybe when I'm 65 and there are no longer any beaches in the world.
However, if its a job and your getting paid for it, then obviously you should do what your wallet says not what your ego says.
Just tell them that you were trying to accomplish something different than what they suggested. Not exactly hard to figure out...
I find the term "duely noted" spoken in an entirely neutral tone does wonders for dissuading people from bugging you with inane comments.
You just wrote the exact sentence I felt like writing after reading the first couple of posts.
Besides, everyone has a different idea of everything, why even let it insult you in the first place? Oh, and remember, this is someone taking their time to give you their opinion because you asked for it; if you do not like other peoples opinions, stop asking for it, or change your attitude.
My $0.02
Are you and your mature type people going to pay me the same amount of money the immature people pay me to do art they like?
[ame]
Warriors swinging axes on the other hand, at this rate of growth will account for 90% of the world GDP within 20 years.
Then again arts subjective so dealing with my opinion will be your problem.
beer by the boobs? soooooo meet you at the Cecil tonight then? is that what you're saying?
everyone's responces has been gold. thanks a bunch guys.
I also got some really great input on an NLP forum, all the way accross the internet. i liked these answers:
"thats an interesting way of looking at it" (this being a phrase that you can use to accept and reject input)
and
"
I am always amazed when someone communicates with me in this manner because they are actually taking the time to tell me about their internal map and how they view the world.
Also I tend to look for the positive in the communication from the other person and wonder what was the real message they wanted to give me and outcome they wanted to achieve and then ask myself did they get it? and did I?
At the end of it all of you don't like the message someone is giving you you can say "Wow! that is awesome, thank you very much, I will take on board what you have just said" turn around walk away and as you walk off you will know that behind you they get smaller and smaller and you may even notice if you listen carefully that at a distance the voice they speak with changes until it sounds like daffy duck and as you keep walking away eventually it all just fades into the distance like smoke on the wind.
"
and i very much like this :
"Well, there's your problem right there! You're on the defensive, explaining yourself. You're playing their game. As soon as you start playing someone's game--the game for which they set the rules--you've lost, and you'll never win because that possibility isn't built into their rule set."
""that painting that you did of that warrior with an axe is okay for young people, but you should paint something more befitting of your age. do up a illustration of some nice people playing cards out by the beach or something like that -- something more mature""
This appears to be rather polite, constructive criticism based on that person's personal opinions. Saying 'fuck you swan' is inappropriate. A constructive objection would be better, "I disagree with your opinion of what is mature art and that my warrior with axe is definitely displays... *stuff about why your stuff is good*"
if this happens you are fully justified in turning around and stabbing him in the eye with your wacom pen
This is particularly relevant if he says something like' i am going to need you to go ahead and change that'
Any other form of critique or criticism is cool:)
Seriously, you worked like at Relic or something right, plus you're a published indie dev? And shit like that actually still matters to you? I used to get it from my highschool art teacher 7 years ago, and it was like the last time I gave a fuck.
I hear the Penthouse has Ho Ho Hoe's!
this changes though if the art has a given topic (which i kinda find immature, in the meaning of .. cmon lets paint envy and if you dont get what i think should represent envy then you're a dick[michael jackson voice])
but its all matter of respect, if the one critisizing the art of the artist doesnt respect the artist, the critique is always bad and otehrwise the critique is worthless to the artist
so the people should at least know eachother and have a neutral relationship, so the critique might be focussed on the artwork itself and not the artist, and the artist is more likely to take the critique
(please tell me if im telling crap)
Sure man, give this strategy a shot sometime, because it's worked for me in the past
One tool for handling a situation like this would be
1-To agree with what their saying
avoid building a wall... THEN....
2-Direct their guidance to be more helpful for what your currently doing....
Everyone loves to be helpful and feel useful..
Soo I say let them, because they've obviously taken time to give some advice in the first place without asking for it.
If you'd like to, you could say.. 'yeah your right, the painting is a bit immature, but it actually is targeted for young people [Try to avoid rolling your eyes as you say this to them] .. Can you think of how I can make it more appealing for them?'
Being sincere about it, and using 'Their Words' might change the outcome of the encounter.
Sometimes, people are unconsciously blunt and come off as being rude, but give them a chance and you might be surprised at actually getting something good out of the situation
In Roman times, the axe was used by the bodyguards of high magistrates and served as a symbol of power, justice and the republic. They went on to conquer the world.
Then came along the Franks, who were so badass that they threw axes. They went on to become the largest Western European power after the diminishing of the Roman Empire.
That axeman on the painting in the first link is Charles Martel, Frankish Mayor of the Palace, who in 732 stopped the Moorish invasion of Europe dead in its tracks and preserved christianity and culture.
The rods on the side in this picture are axes. Can you argue with Abraham Lincoln?
In short, I'm all for drawing mature stuff, but card playing never created and maintained Western European civilisation.
Edit: though it did lead to the popularity of the sandwich.
Both sides just need to love it or leave it. If you agree great, if not just leave it. No use slugging it out and trying to force the other person to see your POV. When giving critiques just state it, and maybe clarify it if the person misses the point but don't belabor it.
It's their call not yours, and they can make all the mistakes they want at least you where kind enough to raise a flag. If they want to respectfully continue down that path who cares.
When getting critiques emotionally disconnect from your art and look at it objectionably.
Maybe sit on it for a day and come back to it before submitting it I suggest factoring that time into your schedule. For me there is always something to fix I just might not see it when I've been zoomed in working on it for a few hours.
this is mature too
Then absolutely slaughter their suggestion of what's cool as being completely irrelevant boring, and stupid.
(Yes I've said this to my parents).
te he he
As a matter of fact, i used to be fantastic at accepting critique.. in fact, up until very recently, i used to THRIVE on self deconstruction... you could even ask my old art director at relic. apparently i used to freak him out a bit, because when he came in to give me critqiues, i went crazy encouraging him to tear down my work, when he expected this BIG EGO to navigate around.
ANYWAY -- this isn't really about art for me, it's about abuse. the inciting indecent that made me write this post was being disrespected and condescended to by an old bitch who was 3 times my age at a party the other night. I wrote this out in art terms cuz i'm on an art forum.. oh, and if i wasn't open to critqiue, i wouldn't be posting here.
you see, I used to be very willing to destroy myself and accept ALL contrasting points of view, so that i could grow and change. Now, I've grown a lot, and I feel like it's about time i started sharing what i've built. Now a days, I'd much rather enter into some sort of intelligent discourse with someone who challenges me.. not to back down and run, or see from their point of view, but to meet them. "here's me. it's in contrast with you. lets put our heads together." -- sometimes that causes friction... but i SO dont want to just smile and nod and ignore what the person says -- that's sort of ignoring the value that they have to offer.
obviously a working situation is different, especialy when you're taking direction. that's all about being willing to be flexible.
anyway the challenge for me here is that i've never really ASSERTED myself in a forceful way, so lately i'm tending to see attacks coming in from like all fucking angles. It's starting to look like what i'm looking for is some way to take abuse and disrepsect, establish my boundary, and tell the person my values, so that we can have a discussion on that basis.. but me just ignoring my values to accept what ever that person says.. that's bullshit, and it doesn't help anyone.
cept for like child porn. and stuff.
if u want to be a smartass but still retain a measure of respect to your critic, keep asking them why until they blow up.
its ugly!
why?
i dont know i dont like it!
why?
i dont like this green color
why?
i dont know
well...
critic over.
truth is, if someone can't explain why something is wrong or is not working (which can be translated to mathematical equations) - and u can't see it for urself - its a moot critic.
I don't think this is always applicable. Sometimes people just have trouble explaining 'why' it looks bad/wrong/weird, it doesn't mean there's no potential issue with the piece/art/clothing/anything being critiqued/judged.