How do Americans reconcile the concept of bootstraps with being a nation of fatasses?
polycounter lvl 19
Despite the fact that America has the lowest class mobility of any developed nation, Americans believe in the concept of bootstraps (it comes from the phrase, pick yourself up by your own bootstraps, which is actually physically impossible anyway). It's the idea that America is somehow a meritocracy, that just working hard will get you ahead. France, Germany, Japan, Canada, Sweden, etc all have higher percentages of people being born poor and working their way into a higher income than the US, but the "American Dream" is that anyone can make it.
So how comes it's the fattest nation in the world? If anything is 100% under your control, it's what you put in your mouth. Society, mostly the western world, has enforced the idea of physical beauty being thin and lean, with some decent muscle definition. So even if it wasn't healthy (and it is), being thin = being beautiful, and being perceived as beautiful has testable results in higher wages, better job opportunities, better chance at finding an attractive mate, etc.
I'm just curious how people reconcile the idea that your personal success is completely under your control, but the same people are more than likely obese in a physically unattractive way?
So how comes it's the fattest nation in the world? If anything is 100% under your control, it's what you put in your mouth. Society, mostly the western world, has enforced the idea of physical beauty being thin and lean, with some decent muscle definition. So even if it wasn't healthy (and it is), being thin = being beautiful, and being perceived as beautiful has testable results in higher wages, better job opportunities, better chance at finding an attractive mate, etc.
I'm just curious how people reconcile the idea that your personal success is completely under your control, but the same people are more than likely obese in a physically unattractive way?
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Of course this could be a deliberate and obvious pun.
I might come back and post more, I had a lot going but i didn't want to come off as a total unamerican dick. But this is something i think about a lot. Too many people in this nation fuck each other over trying to get ahead and in the end everyone loses.
This is why i think so many people gravitate towards trying to make video games, your job is to just try to make people happy doing something relatively cool, no one loses, well unless they run out of lives of course
and the government
and Israel.
wait for 0:22
[ame]
That said, you can be an ambitious, driven, and personally responsible person without being thin and attractive. For some people that just isn't very high on their list of priorities. Just like being a friendly and sympathetic person isn't very high on yours.
LOL
But it's clear that not everyone does, and since it's hypocrisy to believe your weight is somehow outside your control while simultaneously believing poor people are just lazy, I wanted to hear them rationalize it in some way.
I think that the idea that you remember was replaced after 9/11 with righteous entitlement. Or at least that's what i have noticed.
BTW i love how you were gone for a while yet have a few more posts than me...
Edit:
"poor people are just lazy"
That comes from the fact that a majority of the poor are depressed, and common symptom of depression is not wanting to do anything AKA laziness.
But all the posts are from before my hiatus, why should they be wiped? You can find them all via search, and the vast majority are critics, art posts, or paintovers (all of which I keep up for archiving purposes, no broken image links even in my posts from 2001).
And I left in 2005, not 9/11, Plus I keep up with the political landscape of America. I think you are giving your fellow Americans too much credit if you think the bootstraps mentality is gone.
I'm going to make a hate on straight male whitey thread for every homophobic thread we get. Gotta spread the love around.
Anyways thats about enough about fat people, the problem is not with them, but with the whole American go getter attitude. For the longest time American attitude towards jobs was, create a climate for the go getters and they will succeed and take care of everybody. Well guess what, not everyone is a go getter, some people are born geniuses and some aren't, thats just how it goes, I'm sure there is some go getter gene out there and some people just don't have it. Is that bad? No, your typical society will probably have the majority of regular populace and then a minority of the go getters and as long as everyone has something to do and can lead a meaningful existence then everything's alright, the US has been focusing on the go getters and trying to create an environment for them to succeed for a long time, while completely ignoring everyone else, and now that those people aren't working and aren't making money guess what... your economy is going down the shitter. 40% of the manufacturing jobs that have been outsourced are never coming back, did you imagine those people and all their kids would somehow magically turn into lawyers? The point is you need everybody, its not oh I'm this great go getter and I'm successful, why aren't you? If you do that then the vast majority of the populace gets left out to dry and everybody ends up worse off.
As far as the bootstrap mentality I haven't played into that idealism since high school. That ideal pretty much vanished for me when I got to college and found 150 other "honor" or "advance" students sitting next to me.
I don't think the mentality is gone because I know plenty of people who say well if you just worked a little harder you would have gotten the A. Or if you would have filled out x more apps you would have gotten a job.
So in that regard you bring up a valid point. I think a good majority of Americans figure they can take the shit now and hope that one day they will be on top as the fan spreading it.
As far as obesity and meritocracy being exclusive I wouldn't necessarily say that. There were plenty of poor, thin, even starving, immigrants in the early 1900s who were staunch believers in the policy. I think the difference now is the people who are successful in that policy usually start from the bottom so its harder for them to justify over spending or over eating once they get to the top. Where as the least successful are those who cannot make the transition from mommy and daddy's fat farm to the outside world's merit system. If you are raised a certain way to be completely dependent on gorging and excess than you are gonna still practice that when you are on your own
-=Edit=-
Had to address the original premise
Or maybe it's more like there is a ratio of good people, to average people, to absolute shit artists, many who post quite frequently in the discussion threads.
People mention any political thread they can count on my barging in, I can count on the reverse, any time that unintelligence in small minded country folk is brought up, I know I can count on the country bumpkin crew to come in and make peanut gallery non points as if it's real contributions, when it's more like hearing a 2 year old noisily shit his diaper.
http://itn.co.uk/9ad80ee325a2cbaf213b740c2fa210f7.html
Its actually a catch 22. There was a recent link to processed food possibly causing depression.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8334353.stm
Poor people cannot afford to spend the money that less processed foods cost (backwards this may be with our economic system.). So they are stuck with the more processed crap.
Its sad really, the poor in the US are fatter than the poor in other countries, which people use to point how well we have it, but the fat is because of empty calories. Have you all looked at just how many products add corn syrup and such to products that dont require it? Its disgusting. Farmers here get government paychecks to raise corn, even though we don't need it. So that corn in turn costs less, allowing for this processed food as one example.
As far as genetics. That only works so far. A healthy diet and exercise trumps a person becoming overly fat. Unless one has a glandular disorder, fat is fat. I agree, that a person might not eat as much and get fat, but to me that requires better education about how our bodies work, and to read the labels of food. The Multinational Food companies would be afraid of this education though. No more sugar waters in example.
I will say there is also lack of education and ignorance of management at game companies. They should allow more time for people to exercise every day. Instead of pushing people for insane hours and trying to get them by with Pops and coffees. Give them free memberships to a local health center, and time set aside during the day if the person plans on working more than 8 hours, to go out and get some exercise.
What is this! an Oxynary post that I agree with 100%? pigs are flying and hell hath frozen over.
Its pretty fucked up, plus obese people make me feel ill
First: I think this is a failure of imagination and bigger-picture thinking.
What is going on here has very little to do with America's "go-getter" attitude(which can only be a good thing, btw) and much more to do with an entitlement attitude, and the fact that we're all nothing more than very large noisy talkative mammals who think very highly of themselves.
If there is one thing I've noticed in life it is that the most important attribute of any individual is drive or determination if you prefer. You could be Einsteinx10 in the IQ department, mozart in creativity, but if you lack motivation, drive and the will/ability to act, you're unlikely to excel in life. Nor should you.
Many of the attributes that are dooming us now in a "civilized" setting are ones that assured our survival as animals, and hence the propagation of those behaviors and desires. Greed, gluttony, betrayal, infidelity. In a civilized sense these are negative traits, but in a survival sense, they are pretty much all virtues.
I've been having this question tumble around in my head for ages but...what economy, society or world will there be, what jobs will exist when the ONLY jobs that aren't automated are creative ones(and even many of them)? Because within the next several decades(50-60 years tops), software/robotics will dominate nearly all aspects of production & service, globally. Sales clerks? robots. Fast food joints? Robots. Customer service? Software/AI. Shipping? Self driving vehicles, etc etc.
It's rapidly approaching the point of a Singularity(thanks Ray Kurzweil) wherein the fruit of labor from the top 1% of us makes the rest of the populace irrevocably obsolete. What job will exist for the guy whose capabilities max out at managing a Taco Bell, when a mass produced machine will do it cheaper, better, faster? Yeah, its sad, he's got kids, a mortgage, etc etc but people fail to realize....the universe/world doesn't give a shit. He needs to produce in a competitive fashion otherwise he and his offspring will perish. Now if Kurzweil is right, we'll all become brain networked nano-cyborgs(thus upping our capabilities) and it wont be a problem(well, not the same problem), but I foresee that only happening for the smartest and wealthiest and the rest of us dying in the cold like starved dogs.
Ben: Your language and response to opposing viewpoints betrays your bias, your thought processes and your real motivations for your statements. You know I love ya and we've been friends for years, but I keep saying... You need to re-read yourself and really analyze what you say, why you said it really and how vitriolic and mean-spirited it so often sounds...before clicking submit.
America isn't a country built only for "go getters" or motivated people. The universe is. The ultimate Hubris and the purpose of civilization and societies seems to be the defeat of Darwinian evolution, the support of those less aggressive and fit by those who are. This is an unworkable and unmaintainable fantasy.
As for the fat thing? The fattest person in the world CAN exercise, eat correctly and control their weight. It IS a matter of discipline, action and knowledge. Genetics plays a part yes, but nobody on the planet is 100% genetically fat and helpless to change their body. Stupid or untalented people cannot do anything, but toil in a life of mediocrity. And here's me looping back around to my previous point...Stupidity and talent are relative, just like weight. Pretty soon the bar for those attributes will be above the heads of 99% of us.
AI-run nanny matrix-state of apathy, indulgence and slow decay here we come!
What? Sorry, you are saying processed food is cheaper? This is a myth.
Fresh healthy food isn't more expensive at all, providing you source fresh and healthy food from small local businesses, that takes time to prepare (and learn to prepare) than you can eat extremely cheap as well as support your local community.
People tend to get sucked into the consumer lazyness and go to a big multi national super store (a la tesco/asda), the convenience of it all under one roof, get dazzled by the big red signs that delude you with offers, that actually make you spend more money (hey it happens to me too).
The problem is the mentality and the lazyness in educating oneself on how to eat properly. It really shouldn't be up to our government to hold our hands and teach us this.
There is an extreme problem with the downward spiral of obese families that are brought up to eat a certain way, find comfort in food, and their children are likely to carry on this way. It's like abuse that gets handed down through generations.
Education seems to be the key but it needs to come from within our society not guidelines from the government.
Whoa, rant, don't know where that came from.
Yes some frozen chicken breast and rice is dirt cheap, but you have to know how to cook it, have the utensils and appliances to do so, the knowledge of how to do it quickly and easily, and the time in which to do it.
This is yet another case of someone who knows nothing about the nutrition problems that poor people of western countries face, thinking their opinion will somehow have any bearing. There have been tons of research into this area, and poor health and poverty are closely linked. It's easy to say put down the burger and pick up the lettuce, but that's what we've been saying for years, and it's not working, America (and the Uk) are getting fatter.
second of all - ppl eat crap fat food bcz they r lazy AND poor. these 2 factors are complimentary AND exclusive.
and third of all - i dunno why so srs. the q of why ppl r fat and lazy in america is obvious. this country is huge, so everything goes up in scale. fat & cheap food production is maximized. since america was rich, people had a lot of lavity, and a lazy lifestyle became a feasible reality to many americans. u didnt have to do much to get by enuf and still live better than, say, 50% of world population (think about all the poor starving bastards everywhere). so this mentality was rooted down, politics and capitalism kept it fed to the vien, and there you go
in a different way, i can see it in israel too. israel was founded by holocaust survivors / escapers, real hard-working people who came to work a shitty land into a place worth living at. nearly annhiliated by sorrounding enemies and stuff, these people were lean and mean (emphasis on lean). now things have - **somewhat** - quieted down where a part of the population can indulge itself with bullshit. u put prosperity anywhere and a couple of generations down the line u've got ppl filling their minds or bodies with shit.
Many houses and people I visited here, they lack of cleaning their homes, offices, etc. Make my nose really bad sometimes.
I know the cost of service for that is pretty high, but at least in Brazil if we can't pay we clean ourselves. Me and my wife culturally we are used to clean our house every single week, depending the case we clean twice per week.
And that sometimes affect in the food as well..
Now coming back to the subject - my wife now says everything taste fake here, even lettuce, tomatos. And she's right! First time we got here in the grocery we saw the "quality", everything very green, red, full color fruits etc. Not sure why, but after awhile you really get thinking the fruit is not that natural.
I can't say I don't like a VERY FAT BURGER, but yeah, american food is making my sh*t smell baaaaaaaaaad because of so many products built on it.
Since I got in the US I got 20 pounds
Sorry for changing the subject anyway....
I lived 5 months in the US (between Salt Lake City and Park City) and had a bit of a cultural shock when I got there. SLC is a completely flat city and people have no excuse to not ride bikes (which I don't think it's a valid one, but that's another topic) or even walk anywhere, but no one did. I was pretty much the only pedestrian around, and it felt weird. Lots of big SUVs with a single occupant driving past me though.
And the food problem - Non-processed food was REALLY expensive, specially fruits and vegetables, which are the cheapest thing you can buy in Brazil and the base of our nutrition. I had to struggle a bit to keep my diet there, eating rice and beans and a lot of fruit and bread everyday. My roommates had lunch at burger king and had oreos+ice cream for dinner, because it was cheaper and more convenient. And they were impressed on how I was able to work 16 hours a day and commute 25 miles on a bike, because they were always feeling sick, so I guess you really are what you eat.
Edit: What Bugo said - I too had a bit of a shock on the 'cleaning' part too. Everyone used dishwashers which, to me, don't clean anything at all. We wash them by hand here. And shower at least once a day, and brush our teeth three times a day. I lived with a bunch of different people and I was pretty much the only one that did that.
In theory, this is true. In practice however. If you go to the supermarket, they have researched ways to make the processed food the most accessible. Front of store display of sales, the food right at mid waist height. Shelf space, is bought by companies. Also, as said, good fruit stands, or healthy stores are not easily accessible in poorer neighborhoods.
So yes, in theory you are right. In practice, getting the healthfood is not. I should know, being a vegan trying to shop at local grocery stores, is not fun. Every other label has hydrogenated this, or corn syrup that. The food I can eat is the most pricey.
That and raw food takes time to prepare, where we have an entire culture where such time is seen as a waste. Even on here, we talk about dedication. A person whose piece isn't as polished because they spent that extra hour a day preparing food, versus the person who just got something they could eat right away. We would call the person whose work isn't as finalized, not as good as the other. So say what you will, we reinforce the idea that a person isn't as dedicated if they decide to take care of themselves.
I think using laziness is an excuse used by each of us to bypass any responsibility for the system we are part of and use. That since you can do something, someone else is just as capable. Capable of what? Are we robots like you? Do you know the past and the other person inside and out to call laziness?
Example: There is this MASSIVE Poor Woman I jog past sometimes when I go to work. She simply sits on the sidewalk. Rain or shine. I have heard her ranting to her self sometimes when I go past or yelling into the air, so she isn't mentally competent (Oh how I love our mental institutions and lack of funding). The closest store that she can afford is this silly convenience store across from her that only has crap food. This is smack downtown, any grocery stores are at least 1- 1 1/2 mile away. They are also the "uppity" grocery stores that serve the elite downtown, so not only would she be kicked out, she couldn't afford whats in them.
I came past her one time in the rain. What did she have to eat? A fucking thing of maple syrup. Yes, thats right. The fake kind as well. It was raining and all she has was this little umbrella while the rain soaked her underneath while she cussed to herself.
It has nothing directly to do with people now generally being overweight. It's indirectly related, since American's current lousy diet was shaped by capitalists selling people cheap lousy food for a few generations. The typical American is addicted to sugary drinks for no good reason, for example....they are consuming utter junk because they were raised to consume utter junk, and it's hard to change to a healthy diet.
As I see it, the main American problem is that it's an out-of-control capitalism, and has become something of a cautionary tale for other countries.
Amen, the problem is that many countries are racing to copy it, instead of learn from it.
It's all well and good playing the victim and blaming the evil supermarkets for tempting us with their MSG-loaded synthetic insta-burgers, but people need to take some responsibility for their own decisions. That's not to say that food manufacturers shouldn't be held accountable for their production processes - far from it, especially given the ludicrously-high sugar and salt content of things like loaves of bread - but they are not forcing you to eat their crap.
Yeah ok, let's say we all agree. That's the same message that's been preached forever. and yet, people are still getting fatter, the world over (it's just Americans leading the charge). So, what can be done to combat it?
How are 8 year olds supposed to know that the cheap fast food their parents feed them is unhealthy, and that they should cook lean meats and bran flakes instead of french pastries (lol)?
Also, are you fat? how physically attractive are you shirtless? I mean clearly this is an example right here of someone that believes in personal choices uber alles.
As the OP of the thread, I think anyone espousing the viewpoint that it's all up to the individual to eat healthy despite upbringing, society and cultural pitfalls, and genetics, to post shirtless photos. Anyone with rippling abs and bulging biceps get to leave their flawed arguments up. The slightest sign of chub or a frail physique, and we'll know it to be the fluff piece it is.
80% of people in Brasil love this plate and eat that weekly! Considering that in Brazil a plate like that if in a restaurant costs 2-3 dollars and in US 10-15 dollars.
This sums up my feelings perfectly.
For me healthy is bran flakes and skim milk for breakfast, apples, bananas, plums and figs during the day as snacks, random lunch foods from whereever we go out, and dinner is normally a portion of lean meat, eggs, sometimes dinner pastries like quiches, or even frozen pizzas.
Unhealthy would generally be 1.5-2x the needed calories needed to maintain your current weight, and comprised mostly of processed foods, starches from breads pastas and potatoes, with relatively little veggies or fruits. Sprinkle generously with sugary drinks and candy.
This is all stuff I had to learn on my own as an adult, as I was raised with poor nutritional habits and as such was quite overweight when younger. I had the luxury of working a single 40 hour job with enough salary to have the time to work out, the money to buy raw ingredients, the appliances to cook it, and the free time to cook it and learn what good nutrition is. I also had the benefit of working/living with other educated people with varying levels of nutritional knowledge other than "eat when it's meal time from whatever is closest and cheapest" which is how many more impoverished people treat nutrition.
Eating healthily is largely a bourgeois privilege in the US.
Well, that's a difficult one. Not only do you have to take most childrens' natural gravitation towards candy into account, but also how responsible the parents in question are.
I'm happy to say that I'm not fat. A little overweight? Yeah, probably, but then again most people aren't at their perfect, ideal weight according to their height or BMI. I'm okay with where I'm at right now, and so is my wife. And even if I were, that wouldn't change the fact that people are still responsible for what they eat. I actually used to be heavier than I am now, but that doesn't change the fact that I was overweight because I drank way too much beer, ate too much fried chicken and didn't exercise.
Supermarkets, advertising and packaging all help to make sugary, fatty foods more attractive, but they are not solely to blame and people can still make a conscious, educated lifestyle choice to lose weight if they want to.
Fact is, most people are too lazy to do anything about it because all that exercise and eating decent food is too much like hard work.
Well yes, I agree with you here. It's not 100% their fault, and they aren't 100% blameless either. The idea of the thread is that it's a systematic problem that's hard to escape from. American people and the American government have allowed the system to spiral out of control in the name of capitalism to where the few benefit from taking advantage of the masses.
Kind of like.... poverty.
There's a little too much sauce for one plate, I agree.