I don't see how that makes it not fair. that's like saying that it is unfair to show a high poly-mesh in-game because it may have to many triangles to be a realistic expectation of a real time model and it slows a viewer engine down to 5/6 fps. its not unfair, just different .
I don't see how that makes it not fair. that's like saying that it is unfair to show a high poly-mesh in-game because it may have to many triangles to be a realistic expectation of a real time model and it slows a viewer engine down to 5/6 fps. its not unfair, just different .
Different? Depending on what was established as guidelines. Does it look good in a portfolio to have something like that, then list the triangle count? At that point, why not just keep it in the 3d program to use vray and or other, and list that under your high poly work versus game work.
Otherwise, have the art director laugh at that point when they see "oh cool!", but then notice the actual polycount. Shut your website down, and go unto the next one. Which may not be as fine tuned, but meets a realistic PC for a game.
Different? Depending on what was established as guidelines. Does it look good in a portfolio to have something like that, then list the triangle count? At that point, why not just keep it in the 3d program to use vray and or other, and list that under your high poly work versus game work.
Otherwise, have the art director laugh at that point when they see "oh cool!", but then notice the actual polycount. Shut your website down, and go unto the next one. Which may not be as fine tuned, but meets a realistic PC for a game.
I didn't say it was a good idea. i was just trying to use an extreme scenario to illustrate the point that it isn't any more unfair than rendering low-poly art in v-ray.
Good art holds up even in a viewport grab on two rocks and a paper clip.
Unfortunately in the Real World. If you had a viewport grab versus a rendered radiosity, lighting, etc. of the same item. Whom do you think is going to be the winner to the viewer 9 out of 10 times? (Not dissing, just pointing out, its a bit more complicated than "good art").
this is a silly conversation...Obviously an AD can look at a rendered piece and see that it has all the fancy bells and whistles(one would hope)...and if it's a contest...then the burden is left to the judges to make sure the contestants play within the rules......beyond that, what does it matter...if someone is getting their asshole blown more on a forum because they cheated refraction or caustics...so what, get over it..make more art.....it's not more complicated than that...there are no rules
Unfortunately in the Real World. If you had a viewport grab versus a rendered radiosity, lighting, etc. of the same item. Whom do you think is going to be the winner to the viewer 9 out of 10 times? (Not dissing, just pointing out, its a bit more complicated than "good art").
Of course the same object will look better. The problem is people start thinking "oh that vray its a magic bullet to make my crap look like gold!" Then spend the next 3mo wondering why their stuff still looks like crap even with Vray. "But I'm using Vray and breathing oxygen, just like the pros!"
"Unfortunately in the Real World. If you had a viewport grab versus a rendered radiosity, lighting, etc. of the same item. Whom do you think is going to be the winner to the viewer 9 out of 10 times?."
I would hope the person viewing the reel could tell the difference. :P
Vray etc renders are nice but does anyone in games development really fall for pretty renders and hire for a role just due to that? I hope not, they will be disappointed. :P
"Unfortunately in the Real World. If you had a viewport grab versus a rendered radiosity, lighting, etc. of the same item. Whom do you think is going to be the winner to the viewer 9 out of 10 times?."
I would hope the person viewing the reel could tell the difference. :P
HR Heads? Whom look at incoming Resumes and such before anyone else?
As far as I know HR heads aren't making artistic calls just checking requirements and passing them on?
I work at a pretty small company and our HR person sends the resumes we get right to the art and creative directors. The ones that get bounced are because they obviously don't meet the requirements or even the mighty vray couldn't polish their turds. She is qualified to make the artistic call and wouldn't have a problem doing it but thats the way the company is set up.
If you would get hired off a viewport screen grab, you'll get double hired if you use Vray?
If you won't get hired off a viewport screen grab, then you probably won't get hired if you use Vray.
As far as I know HR heads aren't making artistic calls just checking requirements and passing them on?
Right, but the requirements coming to them might be "x" skill level minimum. Which leaves what to forward up to them before reaching you. You ever attempted to apply to say, oh M$? Unless you know the person/director of the area your attempting to get hired in, its not a straight forward process with Bureaucratics to reach theirs AFAIK.
After all it is completely not fair to those who does not do it :poly127:
Sounds like your just bitter that you cant achieve a good render with VRay/MR etc
There is no such thing as fair or rules for this. End result is what matters.
UNLESS ofcourse whoever is trying to pass a vray render as a realtime capture.
Besides that problem it doesnt matter how it was done as long as the end result is awesome and facts are states.
An artist that achieves an awesome result rendering a lowpoly in vray wins any day over an artist who gets mediocre results capturing a realtime viewport..presentation!
I do my screens ingame or in the viewport. I'd think an AD would respect and understand that more than a super rendered awesome-pic. That and it's way more awesome to actually use your stuff. (These days it looks pretty awesome ingame anyway)
to the OP :I don't really get the point ? how is this unfair? are you talking about contest entries using vray ?? or portfolio ? if the later, I really don't see your point ? I suppose using vray is just to get a nicer posed render, illustration like than pimping off a model, plus for a lowpoly you'd get pretty similar realtime results, especially with the awesome solutions out these days ? so yeah really I don't see the point...even for enviros, since you now can bake radiositylightmaps with beast and the like...just have a look at mirror's edge or at peris' entry for the unhearthly, or the scenes from a movie renders...seems like you're trying to make up for a lack of skill/motivation to do proper renders ? I may be wrong though, but a good render is a good render, be it realtime or not.
I think its unfair that some people know how to use Unreal Engine 3! They can show their stuff in like... a game and stuff! :-P
I render most of my stuff. Not anything fancy at all, just some point lights etc, nothing that cant be done in any current gen top-tier engine. I render them simply because I'm too stressed/busy to put them in an engine. It's hardly cheating. Both real-time engines vs prerendered have their pros and cons.
yeah I myself used vray instead of marmoset for instance to be able to go at 3.5k*5k resolutions for print, other than that, results are pretty close nowadays
Who needs vray when you have mray for free godammit!!? The same quality is achievable in either renderer.
afaik the only difference between the best possible quality game engine and an in application photon rendering system like vray is that you have full anti-aliasing, maybe better shadows.
Anyway as said you can achieve the same quality in scanline with the right shaders and lighting rig for static images.
Scanline does not bounce lighting by default you'll have to use radiosity or Light Tracer to get it to bounce. It's the lack of bounce lighting that gives it speed and also is a telltale hallmark of it looking retro 3D-ish.
Photon emitting systems are not all that friendly to animation unless you really crank the settings up and even then you'll probably get flickering. Something to keep in mind if you decide to do turn arounds or animation. MR Vray and even Scanline set to Radiosity suffer from flickering.
lets be honest. If I have me some Vray, and I have me some low poly models, and I believe me some rendering will help me get a job, I be rendering me some low poly models yessir
Scanline does not bounce lighting by default you'll have to use radiosity or Light Tracer to get it to bounce. It's the lack of bounce lighting that gives it speed and also is a telltale hallmark of it looking retro 3D-ish.
Photon emitting systems are not all that friendly to animation unless you really crank the settings up and even then you'll probably get flickering. Something to keep in mind if you decide to do turn arounds or animation. MR Vray and even Scanline set to Radiosity suffer from flickering.
mray and vray both allow caching of photon emission/luminance calculation/pre-whatever, so they this information can be distributed to slave machines, or be the same for multi-frame renders. It also has the nice benefit of being faster per frame.
That depends on the settings and what is happening in the scene. You will never get flickering in a animation rendered in default scanline, its going to be a lot faster than default MR and Vray. Distributed luminance maps or not.
Vray's luminance map are great as long as nothing is really moving around in the scene. If you're animating a camera through a scene it should render relatively quick with next to no flickering. If you start moving things around the light map needs to be recalculated, which leads to flickering and longer render times.
You can, render your background minus moving bits. Then render your moving bits using something much faster and more stable and comp the two together.
My main point wasn't really which is better at doing what, they all have their place and there isn't really one render engine to rule them all unless you're talking about Renderman.
My main point was that a person will probably get a job reguardless of how their models are rendered. But like Roo pointed out its not going to hurt only help so might as well. Just don't expect Vray alone to land any jobs...
I may be wrong though, but a good render is a good render, be it realtime or not.
you are wrong. It look like "i play with AIM and Wall Hack but nice headshot is a nice headshot".
I have skills and motivation for make nice beauty shots. (see my site) I good know scanline, vRay, MR and Maxwell but make raw screenshots of lopoly it is my own rule.
I may be wrong though, but a good render is a good render, be it realtime or not.
you are wrong. It look like "i play with AIM and Wall Hack but nice headshot is a nice headshot".
I have skills and motivation for make nice beauty shots. (see my site) I good know scanline, vRay, MR and Maxwell but make raw screenshots of lopoly it is my own rule.
so you're upset that people who use vray for low poly rendering are using vray, because you know how to use vray but choose not to use vray to render your low poly art and by them using vray when you choose not to use vray, it makes everyone else cheaters?
Vray.
so you're upset that people who use vray for low poly rendering are using vray, because you know how to use vray but choose not to use vray to render your low poly art and by them using vray when you choose not to use vray, it makes everyone else cheaters?
Vray.
Everyone else become cheaters always when use vray/mr for render l-p for portfolio. Together with those who retouch screenshots for sell better his crap-game.
Vray/mr/scanline.
Use whatever you want mray/vray/whatever ray, just don't pretend you didn't use it...I've stuff render in mental ray in my portfolio and it's written on it u.u (and I never heard an employer said omgwtfbbq you're a cheater).
As it was said before anyway, both have their pros and cons but it's useless to point out others' stuff as cheat or not, just focus on your work and make it look how you would like it look depending on the technology you use to render it (realtime or not)
Neither Zbrush nor VRay have a magic 'make art' button. You put more effort into something and get more out of it. Seems like a proper comparison to me.
Following your line of argument I could complain that using Unity is cheating when I restrict myself to using the Q3 engine...
Lolz thread,,i cherish the days when software was a limiting factor, what a young hungry energetic time..now are the scary times where creativity and myself are the only limiting factors.
Replies
Different? Depending on what was established as guidelines. Does it look good in a portfolio to have something like that, then list the triangle count? At that point, why not just keep it in the 3d program to use vray and or other, and list that under your high poly work versus game work.
Otherwise, have the art director laugh at that point when they see "oh cool!", but then notice the actual polycount. Shut your website down, and go unto the next one. Which may not be as fine tuned, but meets a realistic PC for a game.
I didn't say it was a good idea. i was just trying to use an extreme scenario to illustrate the point that it isn't any more unfair than rendering low-poly art in v-ray.
Unfortunately in the Real World. If you had a viewport grab versus a rendered radiosity, lighting, etc. of the same item. Whom do you think is going to be the winner to the viewer 9 out of 10 times? (Not dissing, just pointing out, its a bit more complicated than "good art").
I would hope the person viewing the reel could tell the difference. :P
Vray etc renders are nice but does anyone in games development really fall for pretty renders and hire for a role just due to that? I hope not, they will be disappointed. :P
And as for fair..pfft, learn Vray. :P
HR Heads? Whom look at incoming Resumes and such before anyone else?
I work at a pretty small company and our HR person sends the resumes we get right to the art and creative directors. The ones that get bounced are because they obviously don't meet the requirements or even the mighty vray couldn't polish their turds. She is qualified to make the artistic call and wouldn't have a problem doing it but thats the way the company is set up.
If you would get hired off a viewport screen grab, you'll get double hired if you use Vray?
If you won't get hired off a viewport screen grab, then you probably won't get hired if you use Vray.
Right, but the requirements coming to them might be "x" skill level minimum. Which leaves what to forward up to them before reaching you. You ever attempted to apply to say, oh M$? Unless you know the person/director of the area your attempting to get hired in, its not a straight forward process with Bureaucratics to reach theirs AFAIK.
Sounds like your just bitter that you cant achieve a good render with VRay/MR etc
There is no such thing as fair or rules for this. End result is what matters.
UNLESS ofcourse whoever is trying to pass a vray render as a realtime capture.
Besides that problem it doesnt matter how it was done as long as the end result is awesome and facts are states.
An artist that achieves an awesome result rendering a lowpoly in vray wins any day over an artist who gets mediocre results capturing a realtime viewport..presentation!
Oh and highpolies, Those I render of course.
I render most of my stuff. Not anything fancy at all, just some point lights etc, nothing that cant be done in any current gen top-tier engine. I render them simply because I'm too stressed/busy to put them in an engine. It's hardly cheating. Both real-time engines vs prerendered have their pros and cons.
I'd def. use Mental ray if I wasn't so lazy, renders look great. That's all that matters.
afaik the only difference between the best possible quality game engine and an in application photon rendering system like vray is that you have full anti-aliasing, maybe better shadows.
Anyway as said you can achieve the same quality in scanline with the right shaders and lighting rig for static images.
Photon emitting systems are not all that friendly to animation unless you really crank the settings up and even then you'll probably get flickering. Something to keep in mind if you decide to do turn arounds or animation. MR Vray and even Scanline set to Radiosity suffer from flickering.
one of the high-end render tool
that far inferior to marmoset when about to render mirrored Normal Map
(ps, flat shaded, unfiltered ftw)
mray and vray both allow caching of photon emission/luminance calculation/pre-whatever, so they this information can be distributed to slave machines, or be the same for multi-frame renders. It also has the nice benefit of being faster per frame.
Vray's luminance map are great as long as nothing is really moving around in the scene. If you're animating a camera through a scene it should render relatively quick with next to no flickering. If you start moving things around the light map needs to be recalculated, which leads to flickering and longer render times.
You can, render your background minus moving bits. Then render your moving bits using something much faster and more stable and comp the two together.
My main point wasn't really which is better at doing what, they all have their place and there isn't really one render engine to rule them all unless you're talking about Renderman.
My main point was that a person will probably get a job reguardless of how their models are rendered. But like Roo pointed out its not going to hurt only help so might as well. Just don't expect Vray alone to land any jobs...
you are wrong. It look like "i play with AIM and Wall Hack but nice headshot is a nice headshot".
I have skills and motivation for make nice beauty shots. (see my site) I good know scanline, vRay, MR and Maxwell but make raw screenshots of lopoly it is my own rule.
sure i meant pictures in portfolios. Rendering LP for printing or web promotion it is normal
so you're upset that people who use vray for low poly rendering are using vray, because you know how to use vray but choose not to use vray to render your low poly art and by them using vray when you choose not to use vray, it makes everyone else cheaters?
Vray.
Vray/mr/scanline.
(also : using the phrase "needs more wear and tear")
As it was said before anyway, both have their pros and cons but it's useless to point out others' stuff as cheat or not, just focus on your work and make it look how you would like it look depending on the technology you use to render it (realtime or not)
This comparison is incorrect.
I have found a way to show the models better than vray render
http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=72811
Neither Zbrush nor VRay have a magic 'make art' button. You put more effort into something and get more out of it. Seems like a proper comparison to me.
Following your line of argument I could complain that using Unity is cheating when I restrict myself to using the Q3 engine...