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Situation at 38 Studios

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  • Dan!
  • bounchfx
    The real story is so fucked, vic makes it look pretty tame. hopefully the truth comes out sooner than later (or never). :(

    It should have never happened like this.
  • Soul_of_Solace
    Both Big Huge and the Providence teams are all gone. This sucks. What is up with so many studios being so horribly mismanaged? Are any lessons being learned in this industry?

    And man, Amalur: Reckoning had so much potential. Sucks that the studio lost most money on the MMO. I wish studios would just stop trying to hope they can somehow recreate World of Warcrafts success and stay away from MMO's.
  • Bigjohn
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    Bigjohn polycounter lvl 11
    bounchfx wrote: »
    The real story is so fucked, vic makes it look pretty tame. hopefully the truth comes out sooner than later (or never). :(

    It should have never happened like this.

    Can you guys talk about what really happened? Or are you not allowed to?
  • bounchfx
    I don't know if we are so I'm going to stay silent right now, outside of voicing my extreme displeasure about how it all went down. It really is unfortunate, for everyone. I am hoping Curt can/will say things soon.
  • AlecMoody
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    AlecMoody ngon master
    Are any lessons being learned in this industry?

    No.
  • 3DKnight
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    3DKnight polycounter lvl 17
    :( good luck to all those, Montreal is 9 hour drive away from big huge and always hiring here!
  • [HP]
  • praetus
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    praetus interpolator
    38 Studios has sold 1.2 million units of its first game, "Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning," since its release in February, according to Schilling. Chafee said experts told him "Reckoning" needed to sell more than 3 million units to keep the company financially health. "The game failed," he said. "The game failed."

    This is really hard for me to read. Maybe I'm naive but 1.2 million units feels like it should be successful. I really feel for all the workers and families put out by this. Especially any of them that are in need of insurance or medical care. I saw in the Kotaku article they mentioned someone found out from their doctor during a check up on their pregnancy that the insurance would be running out today. That is awful.
  • Eric Chadwick
    The insurance running out thing was an issue before the layoffs occurred, when it was still in the gray area of furloughs. But now COBRA is kicking in, so people should be covered. Unless bankruptcy gets in the way, but I'm not sure that this would actually prevent COBRA payments.
  • JasonLavoie
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    JasonLavoie polycounter lvl 18
    Very very sorry to hear everyone. I'm very interested to really hear what happened, but happy to hear they allowed their team to get back into the studio to get some stuff for their portfolios.

    As said before, we at Digital Extremes have some positions opened - http://www.digitalextremes.com/careers/postings

    We're based in London, Ontario Canada.

    Good luck to everyone, I know all of you will land on your feet in no time!
  • Zyloh
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    Zyloh polycounter lvl 8
    Positive energy and good luck to anyone affected by this. :(
  • Eric Chadwick
    Yo, Blankslatejoe spotted!

    f8g2O.jpg

    Yes indeed you guys are in demand.
  • Ghostscape
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    Ghostscape polycounter lvl 13
    praetus wrote: »
    This is really hard for me to read. Maybe I'm naive but 1.2 million units feels like it should be successful. I really feel for all the workers and families put out by this. Especially any of them that are in need of insurance or medical care. I saw in the Kotaku article they mentioned someone found out from their doctor during a check up on their pregnancy that the insurance would be running out today. That is awful.

    It's a bit naive, yes - depending on the development team size and length of development, a AAA game can cost anywhere from 20-100m easily, and the net from a sale is probably somewhere closer to $10-$20 for the development side of things, and a lot of that is paid preemptively by the publisher, meaning that even if you are successful you are not getting money in the coffers after it ships. Kingdom of Amalur was an expensive development before Big Huge got bought out and I'm sure it sunk a lot of money afterwards, too, I'd be very surprised if it made any significant money for the studio.

    38 Studios Folks - Ready At Dawn is hiring a ton of positions!

    "Are you ready to work on an exciting new AAA IP for a Next-Generation home console game system? Ready At Dawn is working on a 3rd Person Action Adventure and is looking for talented, motivated and self-directed developers to join our team.

    Industry experience is a plus but not a requirement. All our positions are full-time.

    Although resumes are required, all candidates for artist positions must also submit reels or portfolios of work, along with exact breakdown of contributions to the materials submitted. All artists should also expect to take a test."

    http://www.readyatdawn.com/jobs.php

    We're looking for:

    + Senior Concept Artist
    + Senior Level Designer
    + Graphics Programmer
    + Tools Programmer
    + Senior Digital Matte Artist
    + Senior Shading Artist
    + UI / Motion Graphics Designer
    + Texture Artist
    + Senior Character Concept Artist
    + Environment Texture Artist
    + Senior Environment Artist
    + FX Artist
    + Concept Artist
    + Lighting Artist
    + Gameplay Programmer
    + Senior Animator
    + Senior Character Artist
    + Animator
    + Character Artist

    We've got a kick-ass team, a sweet project, and we're growing.
  • mjl86
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    mjl86 polycounter lvl 11
    Sorry to hear this, as I knew several people who worked there and they are very talented. Good luck to everyone affected.

    Wandake Studios in neighboring Connecticut is looking for an Art Director and would be interested to hear from other applicants as well.

    http://jobs.gamasutra.com/jobseekerx/ViewCompanyProfile.asp?CompanyProfileID=4997
  • Hazardous
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    Hazardous polycounter lvl 17
    vcortis wrote: »
    Well now that I'm a little more free to talk about this Jesse. The million dollar + payment that went to Rhode Island was in assurance we would receive the tax credits of 8 million. We even had buyers lined up for the credits and the government was sitting there telling us "You give us the million, we give you the tax credits."

    We gave them the million. They did not give us the tax credits, which would've not only payed the employees, but saved the studio most likely as we had several publishing deals in the works. The government flat out lied to us (big surprise).

    I don't fault upper-managemenet too much, they've actually been pretty open about what's going on and really thought the studio was going to pull through this. They've even been allowing us access to the building to obtain as many assets as we need to build our portfolios back up. I'm sure the full story will eventually come out.

    This is horrible man. Literally makes me sick in the stomach to read. Im sure if someone could see my face right now, theyd halt, and then back away slowly. One eye is twitching and the veins in my head are popping.

    I really feel for you guys, I'm glad you have been allowed access to assets etc to rebuild folios and whatnot!

    You guys made awesome stuff, I dont think it will be long before your all snapped up again! :)
  • Leodido
    This really sucks, good luck to everyone impacted :(
  • iniside
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    iniside polycounter lvl 6
    Seriously, not the place for this. Especially since these are just your opinions. Many people, including myself, loved Reckoning.


    Sad to hear. I was looking forward to seeing the Amalur universe expand.

    I'm simply pointing the fact. Look at sales. Something went wrong. You may like it or not. But.. It's better to know what and learn for future, than repeating the same mistake again.

    Guys lost jobs. Crap. Unfortunetly I can't help, but I'd like to know why that happen. And I'm 98% my speculation is pretty close.
  • Joopson
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    Joopson quad damage
    I really hope you all hit the ground running, and end up working someplace else super soon. This really sucks. Makes me lose even more faith in the government
  • eld
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    eld polycounter lvl 18
    iniside wrote: »
    I'm simply pointing the fact. Look at sales. Something went wrong. You may like it or not. But.. It's better to know what and learn for future, than repeating the same mistake again.

    Guys lost jobs. Crap. Unfortunetly I can't help, but I'd like to know why that happen. And I'm 98% my speculation is pretty close.

    It sold great, but the whole thing and budget used up depended on it to sell abnormally good, that was the main problem.

    Such a big shame though with the jobs lost, and the people who enjoyed working at the studios.

    Here's to hoping everyone gets back on their feet as quick as possible!
  • Kurry
    Sad to hear. Hope you all land on your feet again. I loved Reckoning and Copernicus looked amazing, real shame it has come to this.

    But, Guerrilla is hiring so come to Amsterdam instead !

    http://www.guerrilla-games.com/jobs/job-openings
  • poopinmymouth
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    poopinmymouth polycounter lvl 19
    vcortis wrote: »
    Well now that I'm a little more free to talk about this Jesse. The million dollar + payment that went to Rhode Island was in assurance we would receive the tax credits of 8 million. We even had buyers lined up for the credits and the government was sitting there telling us "You give us the million, we give you the tax credits."

    We gave them the million. They did not give us the tax credits, which would've not only payed the employees, but saved the studio most likely as we had several publishing deals in the works. The government flat out lied to us (big surprise).

    I don't fault upper-managemenet too much, they've actually been pretty open about what's going on and really thought the studio was going to pull through this. They've even been allowing us access to the building to obtain as many assets as we need to build our portfolios back up. I'm sure the full story will eventually come out.

    While a bait and switch (if it went down exactly like that) is deceitful, the company was already in trouble financially to necessitate those tax credits. A state that has never dabbled in videogame funding before has every right to be wary of sinking more tax payer dollars into a production that in all likelihood (to them) is going to be more lost money. In fact those are the exact words of the state official.

    praetus wrote: »
    This is really hard for me to read. Maybe I'm naive but 1.2 million units feels like it should be successful. I really feel for all the workers and families put out by this. Especially any of them that are in need of insurance or medical care. I saw in the Kotaku article they mentioned someone found out from their doctor during a check up on their pregnancy that the insurance would be running out today. That is awful.

    1.2 million is not a successful number for a major title. GUN sold 1.9 mil just in North American and another 1 mil+ globally, it was the most successful original IP of the year, and Activision considered it a loss. And that was back in 2006. For a major title with a huge dev team, you're looking to need 4-7 mil just in NA for publishers to be happy with their investments.
  • ambershee
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    ambershee polycounter lvl 17
    For a PC-only title, 1.2 million is exceptional. The list of titles that have broken the million barrier is not very long.
  • crazyfingers
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    crazyfingers polycounter lvl 10
    Sorry to hear Victor,

    Sounded like an amazing project while it lasted, hopefully with this outpouring of support you guys are able to find a new gig soon :/, the released screenshots looked amazing.

    http://www.joystiq.com/2012/05/24/industry-rallies-to-get-former-38-studios-big-huge-games-staff/

    Did you do the tileable stone textures? Reminds me of your art test, they came out awesome!
  • poopinmymouth
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    poopinmymouth polycounter lvl 19
    ambershee wrote: »
    For a PC-only title, 1.2 million is exceptional. The list of titles that have broken the million barrier is not very long.

    The point is that the list of studios who have recently made a PC only, non MMO (which brings in extra revenues) with a huge team is also not very long. Because a team that size is expensive, and needs a huge return to make it profitable.

    I agree that 1.2 million is a great number, having reached a huge audience, but I have no trouble believing it wasn't *enough* sales to recoup the cost of development.
  • dii
    That's pretty surprising about GUN, was it just considered a loss because it didn't meet the investors expectations or was it actually a loss as in it couldn't recoup the cost of development?
  • yodude87
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    yodude87 polycounter lvl 5
    wow guys, im so sorry to hear this... just in case, www.gamedevmap.com is a good resource, hope you guys land alright. wish you guys the best, really, can only imagine how hard this must be.
  • Parnell
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    Parnell polycounter lvl 18
    ambershee wrote: »
    For a PC-only title, 1.2 million is exceptional. The list of titles that have broken the million barrier is not very long.

    Reckoning wasn't a PC only title.
    It shipped on PS3, 360, and PC.
  • doc rob
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    doc rob polycounter lvl 19
    This whole situation sucks, really sorry guys.

    Bethesda is hiring and we'd love to have some of you folks apply over here.
  • blankslatejoe
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    blankslatejoe polycounter lvl 19
    While a bait and switch (if it went down exactly like that) is deceitful, the company was already in trouble financially to necessitate those tax credits. A state that has never dabbled in videogame funding before has every right to be wary of sinking more tax payer dollars into a production that in all likelihood (to them) is going to be more lost money. In fact those are the exact words of the state official.


    It's not quite that simple, Ben. The 'exact' words of a lot of state officials need to be taken with a grain of salt here. But yeah, there's no shortage of blame to spread around, and a lot of interesting, if embittering, stuff I learned about politics. Exciting days.

    Anyway, the Dev team was amazing. We had an awesome game that not only looked beautiful but was beginning to get really fun. I wish we'd had the opportunity to stay on course and finish it.

    also, eric -- YOU FOUND ME!
  • Em.
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    Em. polycounter lvl 17
    If there are any BHG folks around(or any 38 people that don't mind a drive), ZeniMax is having an open house next Wednesday the 30th at one of our offices in Hunt Valley, MD. Reps from ZeniMax Online as well as Bethesda will be there. Current job openings are listed at http://jobs.zenimax.com/ and Resume and RSVP’s to attend our open house can be sent directly to Jobs1(at)zenimax.com

    If you have any questions or anything, feel free to PM me. Best of luck guys, been there/done that. Makes me sad that the world will never see what you were working on, looked pretty sweet to me.
  • Alberto Rdrgz
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    Alberto Rdrgz polycounter lvl 15
    Ghostscape wrote: »
    http://www.readyatdawn.com/jobs.php

    We're looking for:

    + Senior Concept Artist
    + Senior Level Designer
    + Graphics Programmer
    + Tools Programmer
    + Senior Digital Matte Artist
    + Senior Shading Artist
    + UI / Motion Graphics Designer
    + Texture Artist
    + Senior Character Concept Artist
    + Environment Texture Artist
    + Senior Environment Artist
    + FX Artist
    + Concept Artist
    + Lighting Artist
    + Gameplay Programmer
    + Senior Animator
    + Senior Character Artist
    + Animator
    + Character Artist

    We've got a kick-ass team, a sweet project, and we're growing.

    Feel free to PM me your info or send it in directly on our site.

    yea son, Apply APPLY! :smokin:
  • BlvdNights
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    BlvdNights polycounter lvl 8
    This just seems to get worse.
    http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/5/25/3043282/38-studios-downfall-leads-to-second-mortgages-for-some-employees
    Some of the hundreds of 38 Studios employees laid off yesterday were hit with a second round of bad news this week when they were told by banks that homes they thought the company had sold for them hadn't been and that they may be stuck with a second mortgage, Polygon has learned.
    Several sources directly impacted by the mortgage issue confirmed the news today and a 38 Studios official, who asked to not be named, said the company is working to try and get to the bottom of the notifications and find a resolution.
    One former employee said they discovered this week that their Massachusetts home, which they had been told was sold last year, actually hadn't been. The bank contacted them this week to ask why they mortgage wasn't being paid.
  • alexk
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    alexk polycounter lvl 12
    BlvdNights wrote: »

    wow.. wtf! sorry for all the artist who got laid off, but that is fucked up
  • ae.
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    ae. polycounter lvl 12
    alexk wrote: »
    wow.. wtf! sorry for all the artist who got laid off, but that is fucked up

    mind = blown
  • Bigjohn
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    Bigjohn polycounter lvl 11
    I don't get that one. Why is the studio buying and selling homes? I never heard of an arrangement like that. Is it some benefit the studio was offering with mortgage payments or something?
  • Jason Young
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    Jason Young polycounter lvl 14
    Bigjohn wrote: »
    I don't get that one. Why is the studio buying and selling homes? I never heard of an arrangement like that. Is it some benefit the studio was offering with mortgage payments or something?

    It was part of the move from MA to RI I imagine.
  • ambershee
  • poopinmymouth
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    poopinmymouth polycounter lvl 19
    Bigjohn wrote: »
    I don't get that one. Why is the studio buying and selling homes? I never heard of an arrangement like that. Is it some benefit the studio was offering with mortgage payments or something?

    I'd imagine it would go something like, Company offers to employ a real estate agent for the employee to help sell their house to facilitation the move. Employee agrees and signs over power of attorney etc to this real estate agent or company to take care of sales. Further communication is now done from Real estate agent > Company > employee.

    It's possible either the real estate agency, or the company then lied or misled the employee to believe their house had sold when it hadn't.
  • Ghostscape
  • Eric Chadwick
    A couple more links for jobs.
    Twitter #38jobs
    Facebook 38Jobs

    We're hiring at Tencent Boston, in Design and Programming, but no Art spots unfortunately. :(

    Man, this is still hitting me hard. So much shit hitting the fan. I can't tell if the health insurance thing is really an issue, or just being blown out of proportion. And the relocation fiasco itself is just mind blowing.
  • RyanB
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQRxxd74yCk"]Curt Schilling Wants Government Bailout - YouTube[/ame]
  • CareersatCA
    Hey all you bold ex 38Studios and Big Huge staffers. We're on the hunt for artists across several disciplines for roles on our Total War and Alien projects at The Creative Assembly. Get in touch with our in house talent specialist Alex - he's a cool guy and will guarantee to get back to everyone who expresses even the most passing of interests.

    alex.wright-manning@creative-assembly.com
  • kaze369
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    kaze369 polycounter lvl 8
    RyanB wrote: »

    Darn you beat me to the punch. I was going to post this after I watched it.
  • Knomad
    vcortis wrote: »
    Well now that I'm a little more free to talk about this Jesse. The million dollar + payment that went to Rhode Island was in assurance we would receive the tax credits of 8 million. We even had buyers lined up for the credits and the government was sitting there telling us "You give us the million, we give you the tax credits."

    We gave them the million. They did not give us the tax credits, which would've not only payed the employees, but saved the studio most likely as we had several publishing deals in the works. The government flat out lied to us (big surprise).

    I don't fault upper-managemenet too much, they've actually been pretty open about what's going on and really thought the studio was going to pull through this. They've even been allowing us access to the building to obtain as many assets as we need to build our portfolios back up. I'm sure the full story will eventually come out.

    I think it's important on this to do the math, and be a little more objective (though I know it's difficult).

    38 studios had a monthly nut of 4-5 million for payroll. the tax credits were for 8, (you'd have sold them for less but for arguments sake let's use 8 ) . That's then two months (games due out in June 2013) till you default and RI is out another 8 million.

    I fault RI for not being on top of their investment and scrutinizing books to potentially avoid this. But 38 studios management was negligent in the extreme as they MUST have seen their reserves were dwindling and instead of getting out in front of it, and negotiating for more capitalization from a position of strength (ie. 8 months ago going to EA, or Hasbro, or? and saying we have something great and the state of RI behind us but we're undercapitalized) they let the situation explode by getting to a point where they didn't have enough money for a payment, or even half a pay cycle.

    I am sorry for your troubles, but in essence the taxpayers and the state of RI have been paying the employees of 38 studios for the last two years. Blaming the State now when they finally realized that they we're in bed with an ill equipped management team is easy, but I think it's near sighted and unfair.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 19
    Actially the tax payers have not put a dime in yet, that was all political spin from when the current govermer was running for office. I saw an article that said there may be new studios formed from this but hearing from all of my 38 buddies, Rhode Island can go fuck itself, any new studios will be in Massachusetts or elsewhere...
  • Knomad
    Actially the tax payers have not put a dime in yet, that was all political spin from when the current govermer was running for office. I saw an article that said there may be new studios formed from this but hearing from all of my 38 buddies, Rhode Island can go fuck itself, any new studios will be in Massachusetts or elsewhere...

    Technically you're correct. RI co-signed the loan so they will be paying those salaries + interest for years to come since the company is in its death throes.

    The ex-employees have every right to be angry, and they may even choose to believe what their supervisors tell them and vilify the governor who's trying to look after his constituents ( and admittedly he's said some stupid stuff). But RI isn't the real villain in this piece, it was a under capitalized, poorly managed company, that let the situation come to a head where the politicians were blindsided and had no options but be unsympathetic.

    Of course 38s leadership is gonna put it on the State, so as to avoid looking bad to their employees. But the calamity was set off when they had about 1million in bank before anyone knew anything. That is half what they needed for their semi monthly pay run yet they framed it as having to pay state instead of workers..... they feel bad, don't want the ire of their employees, but they are not being truthful.

    I am sympathetic to the plight of the employees, and the taxpayers of RI. Both were poorly used in this process, it'd be great if both could identify the failings of their "superiors" instead of taking it out on each other.
  • giles
    Actially the tax payers have not put a dime in yet, that was all political spin from when the current govermer was running for office. I saw an article that said there may be new studios formed from this but hearing from all of my 38 buddies, Rhode Island can go fuck itself, any new studios will be in Massachusetts or elsewhere...

    I'd hope you and your buddies would be smart enough to know that the loan will be put back on RI taxpayers. It doesn't matter if they've put a dime in "yet". 100+ million on the hook no? When has this scenario ever happened in the industry? To say go fuck RI just shows how immature y'all are. MA told Schilling & company to go fuck off no? RI has 11% unemployment btw, 2nd in the nation right?

    Screens looked great. I'm sure all the developers/artists are more than competent. But please, don't act like the average RI taxpayer can go fuck off. First time a massive game has been funded this way and RI politicians & 38 management appear to be ones who dropped the ball.
  • Jason Young
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    Jason Young polycounter lvl 14
    Knomad wrote: »

    But 38 studios management was negligent in the extreme as they MUST have seen their reserves were dwindling and instead of getting out in front of it, and negotiating for more capitalization from a position of strength (ie. 8 months ago going to EA, or Hasbro, or? and saying we have something great and the state of RI behind us but we're undercapitalized) they let the situation explode by getting to a point where they didn't have enough money for a payment, or even half a pay cycle.

    My guess is they saw the money running out awhile in advance and shopped it around behind the scenes, looked for private investment, etc. You don't just wake up one day and go "oh shit guys we can't make a payment or payroll". It's doubtful anyone wanted to invest in it especially after Amalur didn't do really great.
  • Justin Meisse
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    Justin Meisse polycounter lvl 19
    giles: The Rhode Island government could have given them the 8 million, which was part of the money with-held from the loan. From what I heard earlier in this thread, i believe they said they would give them that 8 million if 38 made that loan payment, then they pulled a fast-one and changed their mind. Withholding that $8 million is going to put the taxpayers on the line for that $100+ million hook, hope they remember that when Chafee's re-election comes up.

    Ok, I shouldn't have said Rhode Island can fuck off, the Rhode Island politicians can fuck off for playing politics with people's lives.

    P.S. - I never worked at 38
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