I mean, I might be wrong, so take it with a grain of salt.
Why I say this though is that a normal map doesn't do anything to the geometry, it just helps to fake the lighting, so there is no geometry information for the renderer to take into account when calculating the SSS.
It might not be noticeable until you turn up the quality of the SSS, but I do think it is important, for instance you should b getting red hues inside your wrinkles and pores, but with a normal map, there is no pore/scratch there to calculate. The only time that pore or wrinkle shows up is when the normal map tells the calculated lighting to fake it.
Where-as displacement actually subdivides the geometry before render, and that geo gets taken into account for everything, SSS, lighting, etc.
So I definitely wouldn't suggest using a normal or bump map. Preferably I would not use them at all, since Vray and Mental ray both seem to have some trouble with them, and I know in the past they have given me lighting problems as well.
Here is a test render I did of the head a little while ago, I think this illustrates the point a bit.
The area I highlighted in a wrinkle done with displacement. Because the wrinkle is geometry, it gets its own SSS calculations.
Then you get a slight red hue to the upper edge of the wrinkle, but you also get the cool clue highlight underneath.
Had this been a normal map, I wouldn't have got either, and it would look more like a long dark scratch then a wrinkle in the skin.
The thing about tight wrinkles like that is it creates more surface area for the light to enter the skin, and when that happens you get more scattering and more sss.
Yeah, I suspected that. I tried it a little, and it does takes a huge amount of time to "start rendering", I guess it subdevides the mesh and loads it to memory. But, I couldn't get any decent results yet. Need to set all sorts of extrusion height and what not ptoperly. Also, I'm not sure it exportsa good enough displacement map from mudbox.. I feel like I need to use levels on it, at the moment it inflates my whole mesh.
If it is inflating your whole mesh , then it's probably the inverse " shift" value. You have to it to negative 1/2 of whatever your displacement is. So if you set displacement to 1, then shift needs to be -0.5 -- or if you're setting it to 0.16, then shift needs to be -0.08
And to save memory, don't give it more subdivisions then it needs. For instance I export my level 2 base mesh, and displace that. I have 8 subdivisions on my model ( in zbrush but same goes for mudbox) so the difference between my highest subdiv (-8-) and what I exported (level 2) is just six divisions. No point in setting it to subdivide more than 6 times, because that will get me back to what I have in zbrush, and there is no more detail in my displacement map than that.
Maybe but i would refine the transition to the other leg, the folds in the crotch on the third are pulling the eye way too much to that point while on the other ones the eyes are allowed to roam around the character a lot more.
My mind's telling me "jeans". But my heart is telling me drop crotch.
I'd bring the up the cuffs on the drop-crotch, though, or make them tighter towards the bottom. I've never really seen a pair that hangs loose like they seem to here.
Dustin - you necro'd my thread. Thanks, I appreciate it, your character was the inspiration for testing out the drop crotch, but I didn't succeed in making them as natural as yours.
Garriola - Thanks man.
Beefaroni - Thanks, thats a nice thing to say. I am having a pretty good time freelancing, but the right studio would be nice.
PyrZern - Yep, agreed.
__________________
Okay everyone, so this is something that needs to happen but I've been putting off, but I have finally thrown myself into learning to draw.
For now I am doing a lot of messing with values and trying compostion, although I have a TON to learn, it is seriously overwhelming.
Here is a weeks progress. I started on 7/24 with some landscape scratches while I was watching some gumroad tutorials.
I've also tried doing some portraits. The first of these was.... bad. The others are still bad but not at 'kill me now' level.
I bought the book 'drawing on the right side of the brain'. To be honest I think it is a lot of pseudoscience, but the actual exercises are gold and have merit, so I'm enjoying working my way through it.
I would love some critique, feel free to be level I have a long way to go and would really appreciate the straightness, no point otherwise.
I'm not worried about sucking, I imagine it will take me as long to absorb 2d as it took to do 3d, probably longer, but I am looking forward to the process.
Thanks a bunch guys - I definitely used stewarts facial planes as reference when I was modeling, but I tried to make it not look like her, I just wanted a couple of the features, I guess I failed to change things enough.
Nice stuff man ! Really like the pose. You should check your armpit though, the coracobrachialis is missing. Everything is there but this one muscle. Maybe you should try too giving the whole armpit more subtlety.
(sorry for the rough sketch, don't have my tablet.)
[Edit]
This picture shows it pretty clearly.
And i found some scan on my computer to show you what i mean by subtlety (plus the muscle, again):
Thanks a bunch guys - I definitely used stewarts facial planes as reference when I was modeling, but I tried to make it not look like her, I just wanted a couple of the features, I guess I failed to change things enough.
Haha, you didn't try very hard. Expect a DMCA from her agent soon.:)
Yeah Zeezee I always wondered what will inevitably happen when a cg artist makes a really convincing nude celebrity. Probably take-down notices and a front page reddit post about the controversy filled with horrific misunderstanding of cg by redditors who 'opened max a couple times' and totally think it needs more SSS.
I think I like the sculpt images more than the renders.
You are a master of skin dude. Also cool to see you start drawing, I recently started to focus on some drawing too
One question, the detail on the lips always looks amazing but I don't really see it in the sculpts. Is that all done with textures or is it just not clear in the sculpts because of sss or something?
Here is some more time into it (not much but some)
Zbrush and GMH2 for the hair, used an insert mesh brush to make the hair planes, and then converted them to hair with geomayahair2, just getting it started so looks 'okay'. Also went a different direction with the displacement than I had initially, layering everything in a map wasn't giving enough resolution so now there are tiling micro-displacement maps layered on top of the zbrush displacement, with masks to control them. I think the thickness map needs a lot of work, since the eyes are scattering too hard and too red right now, I will probably work on that next time.
its silly how good youre getting at this, its not even funny xD
you should do some male people persons though, so you dont get stuck in your comfort zone
Haha yeah it's true. This one actually didn't start out as another personal project, it's actually the model and texture from a (realtime) art test that I did (and I guess didn't get the job for), and I decided that I wanted to do a vray breakdown of it where I would eventually put the vray scene, the shader and the model out there, either for free or on Gumroad.
__________
The other thing is that I don't get to model women all that often.
Like if you read my anatomy thread here, it might look like all that I do is women, but the truth is pretty different. In freelance women are the most rare thing I do, most everything else is men, monsters, and fantasy creatures (more of that lately)
Actually if I break my modeling down by what projects I have done, the list looks something like this, from newest to oldest for the last couple of months:
1 - (current) Female
1 - (also current) black female, late 50s.
2 - Archangel (freelance)
3 - Elf ranger 1 (freelance)
4 - female anatomy sculpt (personal)
5 - Black male, late 50s, (freelance)
6 - Elf ranger 2 (freelance)
7 - Police Officer and Security guard (freelance)
8 - Black female, late 40s (freelance)
9 - Black male modular character set, 10 unique characters with swappable everything (freelance)
10 - A deer (art test)
11 - Black female modular character set, 3 unique characters with swappable everything (hair, bodies, clothes, textures, normals)
12 - Sci-fi female (freelance)
13 - a couple of children (freelance)
_____________
So yeah, while it might seem like that is most of what I do, really I am trying to move myself away (in my personal stuff) from what I do as a freelancer, which is mostly men and fantasy creatures. I get the least practice with women, especially younger women, since most of the freelance I have done, minus 2 projects, have been younger females, the rest of the females are older (40-50) and have been unattractive.
I don't mention unattractive to be mean or say I'm unhappy with that, I only mention it because there is such a divide between the skills needed to make an attractive face vs. an unattractive face, there isn't one I prefer.
I am not complaining about the lack of women either, I love being a freelancer because I get to touch a bunch of different projects, one of my favorite to date being the late 50's black male. I love the variety of types I get asked to work on, but I do try to use personal projects to balance things out a bit.
yeah, makes sense, all I do is monster and white guys with muscles too, both for work and private stuff, guess I haven't get tired of it just yet haha. Thanks for sharing
By the way lotet I wasn't trying to be mean or anything like that, if I came off dickish. I was just thinking it through and I was surprised by the number.
I calculated it all out from the beginning of this year, and 83% of all the work I have done for freelance is non-female, or if they are, then older female.
I was surprised by that number but it definitely makes sense I guess, not too many women in games these days, mostly fantasy creatures and muscular men.
I have had the good fortune of being the main artist for a game that avoids a lot of these tropes though, so my characters have been more varied (by age, race, and gender) than I think a lot lf people get the chance to work with.
But I definitely see your point. I'm thinking my next project might be a male erorche.
Here is this mornings render. Lots of changes to the shader, darkened the diffuse and let the SSS bring more warmth into it, but it helps me get some of the crazy scattering areas (like the eyelids) out of there. Changes to spec and gloss, the displacement, I guess just a bunch of little tweaks.
Looks great! And no, your not coming of as a dick
I guess what I meant was that I don't feel ready to move into more meaningful 3D yet, and that im kind of jealous with what you manage to achieve with these studies.
I feel they are more fine-art then anything else. and all im doing is "normal game art":poly122:
Replies
I mean, I might be wrong, so take it with a grain of salt.
Why I say this though is that a normal map doesn't do anything to the geometry, it just helps to fake the lighting, so there is no geometry information for the renderer to take into account when calculating the SSS.
It might not be noticeable until you turn up the quality of the SSS, but I do think it is important, for instance you should b getting red hues inside your wrinkles and pores, but with a normal map, there is no pore/scratch there to calculate. The only time that pore or wrinkle shows up is when the normal map tells the calculated lighting to fake it.
Where-as displacement actually subdivides the geometry before render, and that geo gets taken into account for everything, SSS, lighting, etc.
So I definitely wouldn't suggest using a normal or bump map. Preferably I would not use them at all, since Vray and Mental ray both seem to have some trouble with them, and I know in the past they have given me lighting problems as well.
The area I highlighted in a wrinkle done with displacement. Because the wrinkle is geometry, it gets its own SSS calculations.
Then you get a slight red hue to the upper edge of the wrinkle, but you also get the cool clue highlight underneath.
Had this been a normal map, I wouldn't have got either, and it would look more like a long dark scratch then a wrinkle in the skin.
The thing about tight wrinkles like that is it creates more surface area for the light to enter the skin, and when that happens you get more scattering and more sss.
And to save memory, don't give it more subdivisions then it needs. For instance I export my level 2 base mesh, and displace that. I have 8 subdivisions on my model ( in zbrush but same goes for mudbox) so the difference between my highest subdiv (-8-) and what I exported (level 2) is just six divisions. No point in setting it to subdivide more than 6 times, because that will get me back to what I have in zbrush, and there is no more detail in my displacement map than that.
__________
Yoga pants, jeans, or drop crotch?
Is that drop crotch a thing that real people actually wear? It kinda looks like she put on a sweater as pants. Fashion is weird.
But my heart is telling me drop crotch.
I'd bring the up the cuffs on the drop-crotch, though, or make them tighter towards the bottom. I've never really seen a pair that hangs loose like they seem to here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCC_b5WHLX0
Thanks guys, really appreciate it.
Dustin - you necro'd my thread. Thanks, I appreciate it, your character was the inspiration for testing out the drop crotch, but I didn't succeed in making them as natural as yours.
Garriola - Thanks man.
Beefaroni - Thanks, thats a nice thing to say. I am having a pretty good time freelancing, but the right studio would be nice.
PyrZern - Yep, agreed.
__________________
Okay everyone, so this is something that needs to happen but I've been putting off, but I have finally thrown myself into learning to draw.
For now I am doing a lot of messing with values and trying compostion, although I have a TON to learn, it is seriously overwhelming.
Here is a weeks progress. I started on 7/24 with some landscape scratches while I was watching some gumroad tutorials.
I've also tried doing some portraits. The first of these was.... bad. The others are still bad but not at 'kill me now' level.
I bought the book 'drawing on the right side of the brain'. To be honest I think it is a lot of pseudoscience, but the actual exercises are gold and have merit, so I'm enjoying working my way through it.
I would love some critique, feel free to be level I have a long way to go and would really appreciate the straightness, no point otherwise.
I'm not worried about sucking, I imagine it will take me as long to absorb 2d as it took to do 3d, probably longer, but I am looking forward to the process.
Basemesh was done a couple days ago for a project, made it into an anatomy project today and knocked out this pose.
She Reminds me a bit of Kristen Stewart
I agree, definitely seeing the Kristen Stewart in there. Bad ass work as usual Ysalex.
(sorry for the rough sketch, don't have my tablet.)
[Edit]
This picture shows it pretty clearly.
And i found some scan on my computer to show you what i mean by subtlety (plus the muscle, again):
Yeah Zeezee I always wondered what will inevitably happen when a cg artist makes a really convincing nude celebrity. Probably take-down notices and a front page reddit post about the controversy filled with horrific misunderstanding of cg by redditors who 'opened max a couple times' and totally think it needs more SSS.
I think I like the sculpt images more than the renders.
Here is a head sketch to round out the week, plus some polypaint.
needs work in areas, I really dont like the pelvis transitions and upper and lower back, critiques appreciated.
*creap back in the shadow*
One question, the detail on the lips always looks amazing but I don't really see it in the sculpts. Is that all done with textures or is it just not clear in the sculpts because of sss or something?
Zbrush and GMH2 for the hair, used an insert mesh brush to make the hair planes, and then converted them to hair with geomayahair2, just getting it started so looks 'okay'. Also went a different direction with the displacement than I had initially, layering everything in a map wasn't giving enough resolution so now there are tiling micro-displacement maps layered on top of the zbrush displacement, with masks to control them. I think the thickness map needs a lot of work, since the eyes are scattering too hard and too red right now, I will probably work on that next time.
you should do some male people persons though, so you dont get stuck in your comfort zone
Haha yeah it's true. This one actually didn't start out as another personal project, it's actually the model and texture from a (realtime) art test that I did (and I guess didn't get the job for), and I decided that I wanted to do a vray breakdown of it where I would eventually put the vray scene, the shader and the model out there, either for free or on Gumroad.
__________
The other thing is that I don't get to model women all that often.
Like if you read my anatomy thread here, it might look like all that I do is women, but the truth is pretty different. In freelance women are the most rare thing I do, most everything else is men, monsters, and fantasy creatures (more of that lately)
Actually if I break my modeling down by what projects I have done, the list looks something like this, from newest to oldest for the last couple of months:
1 - (current) Female
1 - (also current) black female, late 50s.
2 - Archangel (freelance)
3 - Elf ranger 1 (freelance)
4 - female anatomy sculpt (personal)
5 - Black male, late 50s, (freelance)
6 - Elf ranger 2 (freelance)
7 - Police Officer and Security guard (freelance)
8 - Black female, late 40s (freelance)
9 - Black male modular character set, 10 unique characters with swappable everything (freelance)
10 - A deer (art test)
11 - Black female modular character set, 3 unique characters with swappable everything (hair, bodies, clothes, textures, normals)
12 - Sci-fi female (freelance)
13 - a couple of children (freelance)
_____________
So yeah, while it might seem like that is most of what I do, really I am trying to move myself away (in my personal stuff) from what I do as a freelancer, which is mostly men and fantasy creatures. I get the least practice with women, especially younger women, since most of the freelance I have done, minus 2 projects, have been younger females, the rest of the females are older (40-50) and have been unattractive.
I don't mention unattractive to be mean or say I'm unhappy with that, I only mention it because there is such a divide between the skills needed to make an attractive face vs. an unattractive face, there isn't one I prefer.
I am not complaining about the lack of women either, I love being a freelancer because I get to touch a bunch of different projects, one of my favorite to date being the late 50's black male. I love the variety of types I get asked to work on, but I do try to use personal projects to balance things out a bit.
I calculated it all out from the beginning of this year, and 83% of all the work I have done for freelance is non-female, or if they are, then older female.
I was surprised by that number but it definitely makes sense I guess, not too many women in games these days, mostly fantasy creatures and muscular men.
I have had the good fortune of being the main artist for a game that avoids a lot of these tropes though, so my characters have been more varied (by age, race, and gender) than I think a lot lf people get the chance to work with.
But I definitely see your point. I'm thinking my next project might be a male erorche.
Here is this mornings render. Lots of changes to the shader, darkened the diffuse and let the SSS bring more warmth into it, but it helps me get some of the crazy scattering areas (like the eyelids) out of there. Changes to spec and gloss, the displacement, I guess just a bunch of little tweaks.
I guess what I meant was that I don't feel ready to move into more meaningful 3D yet, and that im kind of jealous with what you manage to achieve with these studies.
I feel they are more fine-art then anything else. and all im doing is "normal game art":poly122:
WIP of the face.