HR / Higher Ups - Is talking about salary online frowned on?
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What the title says. Is talking about salaries online frowned on by HR and those those in hiring positions? I've seen a couple of salary threads around here, and there is one going on over at 11secondclub.com about it as well, about if cheap, fresh talent is killing the industry. I've shared my experience in different threads, and I certainly don't want to ruin my chances with any company, but at the same time, I feel it's better to talk about it. Salaries are apart of every job, and if more and more companies are paying less and less because more people are willing to accept that. I dunno, I think conversations need to be had.
Obviously trash talking a company isn't good. But saying hey, I make this much, I feel im being underpaid and taken advantage of. How does that look to employers? I feel if they don't like you say that, it kinda goes to show they know it's true, but don't want people to know about it.
Thoughts? I'd love to hear from the recruiters / supervisors out there. Kenny, I know you use to be one. Feel free to jump in.
Feel free to let me know if you think what I wrote in the linked thread is crossing a line.
Cheers
Obviously trash talking a company isn't good. But saying hey, I make this much, I feel im being underpaid and taken advantage of. How does that look to employers? I feel if they don't like you say that, it kinda goes to show they know it's true, but don't want people to know about it.
Thoughts? I'd love to hear from the recruiters / supervisors out there. Kenny, I know you use to be one. Feel free to jump in.
Feel free to let me know if you think what I wrote in the linked thread is crossing a line.
Cheers
Replies
Sorry, not what I make, but what I started at. What I broke into the industry with. I stay away from the salary convo with coworkers. That might be a little messy if I make more but started after them. I know to stay away from that stuff.
I mention that sometimes, when it's relevant or helpful. I don't go into any real specifics though.
Isn't that what the Game Developer Salary Survey is all about? Gathering data from across the board and straining out all the names.
I think its important for companies to be straight forward with their pay scales and to even be open about it. It's the companies that get someones salary requirements and if its lower they go with what was requested not what they'll pay that tend to be a little shady and strongly discourage cross talk about salary.
Personally I'm not going to talk about it online, I'm much more willing to talk about it in IM with people I know pretty well or offline but you never really know how you're employer or future employers will view it. Since its so specific to areas its not really worth taking the risk.
Some employers see people who talk about salary as rabble rousers trying to eat into their profits and that its your job to negotiate effectively when offered the job. They end up with people all over the pay scale and don't like it when someone who is happy with what they make being told that the guy next to them is making a lot more doing the same thing. Those places tend to be more on the mismanaged side and fall apart. But it can save a company a lot of cash.
So having transparency on salary expectations helps with being more realistic about what kind and where accommodation is best to look for.
like im sure wages in say a montreal studio would be cheaper than a austin or vancouver studio.
it's basically this, isn't it?
With that in mind, I think posting as yourself publicly about how much you make is a bad idea.
I think anonymous postings are fine and I heartily encourage folks to both submit information to and consult the Game Developer/Gamasutra salary survey.
I would never share specifics online, but saying somethings like "If you're a level artist in Vancouver with a few shipped titles under your belt, expect to earn in the $60k range, +/- $10k." Thats informative, non-specific and gives a rough idea of what to expect. It also isn't personal to the person saying it.
Same here. I've never wrapped my brain around the whole taboo of discussing incomes.
It definitely helps not caring how much money you make though, to initiate those conversations. I'm at that happy point in my life where as long as I have a roof over my head and food in my belly, making art as a day job ... I'm pretty much happy regardless of the amount of disposable income I have.
I see it everywhere. Back when I used to work at some small firm just doing data prep stuff I was speaking to a supervisor who was pretty laid back about everything but he did tell us once that its a sackable offence to talk about salaries.
Of course he was probably talking rubbish given how hard it was to fire people back then but it just goes to show how your main fuel to live and play a part in society is a taboo subject in many places.
But you know I'v worked in a bank since and people there basically greet you talking about salaries. Guess it depends where you are.
In general, it is OK to talk about them, barring making people jealous. It's gauche to volunteer your salary to someone who didn't ask, but if someone asks I have no problem telling them.
Personally I think it's ridiculous if companies tell you "you cannot talk about how much you earn to anyone". It can make sense inside the company since it can bring out jealousy among employees (although you could argue it's the company's fault). Also there's the issue of "talents". People who get higher salaries because the company wants to keep them, and so on. It can become messy higher up. And for yourself, sometimes ignorance is bliss - you're perfectly happy until you find out about everyone else. It gets messy higher up I think
But outside the company I see no reason.
If companies are afraid that people find out they're underpayed and leave, it's their own damn fault. If they're overpaid, then what's the problem mentioning a figure?
If people are curious about ballparks for salaries, they could always check the surveys each year.
http://www.gamecareerguide.com/features/980/game_developer_salary_survey_2011.php
Wow! I haven't seen this in a while.
Now I'm not too thrilled with what I'm making.
In sweden you can request the information about anyones salary through paperwork from the government, but otherwise most companies are the same as anywhere else, no talking.
Not their salaries but their yearly income which can include a numbers of things(salary, stocks, real estate etc.)
after my last job interview i briefly talked to 2 devs smoking outside of the studio.
one of them seemed curious about how much i asked for. he didn't seem to expect that i would tell him but i did, precisely to get some data.
when asked whether amount was too high, too low or okeyish they said it seemed like a fitting starting amount.
"i see, so i asked for too low" i said jokingly, accusing them of not being honest
then they said that they really think it was good starting salary and explained factors that in their opinion contributed to the fact that it wasn't really "too low" or too high.
so yeah, talking to people can help.
Yeah what? it says an artist with 6+ years experience should be making 86,000 USD is that true??
Then at the end its got average salary USA being 71k and europe being 41k (both usd). Is it really that much of a jump?
Like, I tell people my foot in the door story because I think its good for people to know that just because everyone tells you you should be making 35-40k straight outta school, doesn't mean all companies will pay that. And some companies will take advantage of your willingness to work for cheeap.
But will it ward off employers? I try to be very careful and not sound like I'm bitching about my company. Try to stick to just how I feel about it all. Here is what I wrote in the other thread. I'm curious what you guys think.
However, as someone who is being honest about your employer's poor practices, you are (regardless as to good intentions and careful wording) still helping to create a negative image. I don't think it is beneficial to you in the abstract. I think you're doing everything right in how you put things (not directly mentioning your employer, etc) but the reality is your employer looks shitty because their practices are shitty, and having your name associated with something that makes your employer look bad, even if you're the victim, is inviting trouble, and in your particular post, offering no real benefit, in my opinion - you're putting forth an argument that you're being taken advantage of, but other people have been even more abused, so your story isn't so bad after all, which isn't a story that benefits anyone.
Ultimately, when publishing something to the internet, you're making it available to anyone - maybe you aren't important enough to have everyone take note, but once you release something into the wild, you are making it available, anonymously, to anyone.
If someone wants to talk salary with me (and like I said, I have talked about salaries with a number of people) I would rather do it in private.
The only time you should be publicly posting about your employer is to celebrate something great about them. I've posted before about how awesome Volition is as an employer, both here, on other websites, and on facebook, (and they are, and they pay competitive wages in a place with relatively low cost of living - when I started as a junior I was certainly not in the predicament you are in). There are bad days and downsides to any job, but I would never post about any of those publicly, no matter how objectively or fairly I was talking about them, because there is no benefit to that.
Good things deserve to be shouted from the rooftops, bad things deserve to be bitched about over beers after work.
For what it's worth, I think as we approach next-gen we're going to see another wave of mass hiring across the industry to staff up, and probably a lot more outsourcing studios as well.
I love that positive ending