You just illustrated what a horrible human being you are that women can only fill the role of scantily clad sex objects in games.
I've avoided this thread for a while but when I saw Blaizer was the last post, I figured it would be choice.
You maked me LOL very hard Justin, seriously. Are you an obese and petty guy with a fetish taste for morbid women? that's what i imagine from your reaction.
Where did you leave your common sense? Where do i say that "women can only fill the role of scantily clad sex objects in games". Are you drunk? or what?
And whats wrong if we want to see beauty things in games? All the animes/games/films do not reflect reality at all (and that's what i like the most), and what's the problem if we are after something beautiful?. If you don't like to see beautiful things, you may have a HUGE PROBLEM. I remember you that almost all the female characters from occidental games are ugly, and they fall in the uncanny valley.
Do you think that making games with "average" characters, or worse... with morbid obesity like the one that snader posted, with an illness, eh man... will make the game better? sorry, but no... Fuck off with you hypocrisy!
And you dare to say me that i'm a horrible human being cuz i can't stand a morbid character? You are totally nuts and you are a total hypocrite.
Who's the horrible human being here?. If you think i am, you are the worst with no doubt.
Come on, go on vacation to miami and do some excercise, you'll see too many great females with perfect bodies.
BTW, watch well the Bless teaser video. One thing is to put chubby characters, but other thing is to put characters with an illness. Think better what you say me the next time dude.
Lets just face it. The market for games only has a few segments, and "AAA" games are bought by players who are obsessed with juvenile power fantasies and escapism. These people (mostly males who have never had a girlfriend) have had more experience with media than they have had with reality, to the point where they couldn't even tell if a game was realistic or not.
If you don't aim your game at slack-jawed morons, you are probably going to fail.
I have been reading comments from Blaizer for years -- don't you guys realize by now he gets off on trolling you?
Anyway. My point was not about YAY FAT PEOPLE. My point was about bringing MORE VARIATION and BALANCE. There are plenty of fat guys in games, but hardly any fat women. There are long short, skinny, average, muscular, fat, ugly, and sexy men in games. There are hardly any non-sexy women in games; this is a rare example and I felt it worthwhile to point out.
This one is a case I want to support wholeheartedly. It's clear to me Gearbox are showing this character as a satirical response to this topic (that's doing the rounds feverishly this last few months) as well as a fleshed out sensible character for the Borderlands universe.
Personally I will hold off until I see her in the game, in one of the interviews they said she kill a guy seconds into meeting her.....I don't know how I feel about that. I think the personality they give her will really make it a right or wrong choice. Because she obviously needs to hold her own in the world but I think the motives she has, and the personality they give her will define her much more than this. I think it's a step in the right direction though more variation in the females is always good imo.
really Blaizer, the Korean character design process is like this:
Blacksmith
Male - a grizzled barrel chested man
Female - 17 year old girl dressed as a slutty blacksmith
Shopkeeper
Male - a wise old man
Female - a 17 year old girl dressed as a slutty shopkeeper, or a slutty maid
Cook
Male - a jolly fat man
female - a 17 year old girl dressed as a slutty chef
really, if the Borderlands character was a man nobody would give a shit if he was fat, everyone expects mechanics to be big fatsos but if it's a woman all the cavemen come out of the woodwork and start shouting "UGGA BUGGA SHE UGGGGGLY!"
Sadly, this is what people want to see in a game, teenagers the most because they are the main customers. It's not the average woman.. ok, but there are women very well proportiened and with pretty curves/faces. And... If you buy any playboy issue you will not see "normal" women.
I'm sure you have plenty of photos of hot girls in your ref folder. With that you should get the idea.
What do you think about the female work on Bioshock Infinite? that's like an anime character, and she's slender... and with a pretty face imho, the perfect doll?. Do they do a bad thing to women creating such character? i don't think so.
And with the new Tomb Raider, more of the same. The newer look of Lara is very.. very different, and there should not be any problem with her.
And for God's sake, they are only characters, they are not real.
And just another thing, i'm not trolling anyone, because i don't have any problem with chubby characters in games (i have created a lot!). If i said something in this fucking thread was because i was horrified with that character with morbid obesity from borderlands. I don't understand the reasons behind it, because if they wanted a strong woman:
look, both are real and strong women...
And err... more. This is what really damages women.
I don't understand the reasons behind it, because if they wanted a strong woman:
...
This is what really damages women.
Totally ripped ladies are great, totally huge ones are too, as are rail thin and completely average. What's damaging to women, more than depicting the super thin* or impossibly hot, is sticking to the same formula, and lumping all women into the same basic design.
I really like diversity in silhouettes, both from an artist's perspective and from a woman's, and if Valve can squeeze that many shapes out of the characters in TF2, I'm willing to bet you could get at least that many shapes for women, including, but not limited to, the go-to pin up.
None of those examples particularly interest me, personal preference greatly informs our values, but is a terrible puzzle for the creators of characters, I mean they could make what I like, they could make what you like, or they could stuff us both and make what they like, or even better what's interesting and makes sense in the universe they've created.
This Ellie from Borderlands is clearly created in this way, and at that nobody has to like every character they meet. If you don't like fat women then that's ok, but they do exist so don't hate on her or on the developers for such a reason.
really, if the Borderlands character was a man nobody would give a shit if he was fat, everyone expects mechanics to be big fatsos but if it's a woman all the cavemen come out of the woodwork and start shouting "UGGA BUGGA SHE UGGGGGLY!"
Good things they aren't then, the main player cast of borderlands 2 is still three cool/funny guys + a vixen.
I'm not saying that is a trope though, but I'm not the one to decide that.
It's the Sumo's fault, otherwise I reckon all the male characters would be rippling beefcakes. What I mean is that it often makes sense to create attractive strong characters because those physical traits tend to go hand in hand in real life, but it's beef proven with the sumo as a stereotype for fat strong people to be realistic.
Not to mention, but once again it's a Japanese game. And hasn't this thread already gone over the "sexy is sexist" problem with a conclusion that it's the depth and variety of the characters that's failing?
Anyway. My point was not about YAY FAT PEOPLE. My point was about bringing MORE VARIATION and BALANCE. There are plenty of fat guys in games, but hardly any fat women. There are long short, skinny, average, muscular, fat, ugly, and sexy men in games. There are hardly any non-sexy women in games; this is a rare example and I felt it worthwhile to point out.
I mut be the odd one here then since there is TONS of variety/nonsexy chick in games i've played -_-'
If you think Roll is sexy ( as in OMG i wanna have sex with her!! )
then i have a very bad news for you
Blaizer I think you secretly desire really fat women, that's why you are protesting so much. or perhaps they just scare you becuase they might beat you up
seriously ythough you have an odd attitude to women , it's one thing to go for an ideal doll kind of woman, but fat girls are not evil or repulsive in any way.
love this from 2000 ad
i really like the borderlands design... HOWEVER, i can also instantly see what the trolls out there will say about it:
if they make her a slightly aggressive personality - typical angry fatty.
if they make her a soft and loving personality - typical "lovely person" fatty.
if they make her a slightly feminist personality - lol typical lesbo fatty.
Is it really so wrong to assume that women in a fighting game will largely have physiques that suggest they are capable fighters; i.e taller and more athletic? I don't disagree that more variety could be present however, but you'd be unlikely to have a 5'1" obese woman.
Is it really so wrong to assume that women in a fighting game will largely have physiques that suggest they are capable fighters; i.e taller and more athletic? I don't disagree that more variety could be present however, but you'd be unlikely to have a 5'1" obese woman.
Those rules do not in any way apply to fighting games.
Edit: nothing is wrong with having a large amount of physically perfect fighters, but you never get the female rufus.
both are pretty interesting, the second in particular (from an artists perspective). sure, the guys drawing isn't the best in the world, but i don't see anything WRONG with it from an anatomical point of view. so i think he's entirely right to be pissed that he's essentially been told "stop drawing fat chicks" by the comic book industry.
I understand this is a forum, so i forgive all your stupid nonsense assumptions about me . Ruz, rest assured, fat girls are not evil or repulsive for me.
Like all of us, i have my preferences, and i dislike to see an ugly female character, that's all. I prefer cute, slender, hot girls instead of a morbid woman, like all of us... i think. Do you understand that? it's simple.
In too many fighting games we can see the "muscled woman"... in other games, chubby women. So this rant is pointless imho, i find it pretty stupid, and more coming from a jealous woman that only pretends to brainwash as many people as possible. Don't say me you ended brainwashed...
Why the heck there aren't men ranting about games and its stereotypical male characters with perfect and muscled bodies?. I remember you that in polycount there's a belly club.
With the Borderlands concept, I think they have had a very bad taste using a disease, morbid obesity, just to create a character. That's gross.
Blaizer - I don't think it's so much a "obesity isn't beautiful, how dare they" but rather that not everyone is a supermodel or muscle man or just a "beautiful" archetype. I don't know what type of character that character will be in borderlands, but I am interested to find out because it is a different approach. While I don't find her to be "oh god so hot" I am more excited to see what type of character she'll be than I am of another girl in an unbelievable armored bikini.
They not made sexy, just a female version of the same of class. The heavy is not fat, but is built like the body builder from last page. Just because a character has tits doesn't mean they have to be all curves. Yes we make games for guys who want to see TnA but you can still have "hot" female characters that are not naked or curvier than a playboy bunny.
That said we have teems that we have to sell to, and they want the TnA and the uber hot chicks, but that doesn't mean that every character has to look like that.
A good guideline for character design is this, would someone want to dress up like this character?
Why the heck there aren't men ranting about games and its stereotypical male characters with perfect and muscled bodies?.
Man have you been following this thread since the beginning? One of the major arguments against the argument that there are so many unrealistic women in games is that there are definitely as many poorly made unrealistic super buff space marine types to almost balance it out, and 'nobody complains about them.'
With the Borderlands concept, I think they have had a very bad taste using a disease, morbid obesity, just to create a character. That's gross.
But you could make that argument about any character. I mean aren't we just exploiting race, social status, age, mental development, religion and many other factors of human life to create interesting characters? Also the only reason that Gearbox are making are showing off this character and pointing out how she's fat and all is to apply satire to this entire topic: it's not her character that's exploiting fat people, it's the developers exploiting the current media spotlight with a fat person.
edit: one of my lecturers said something similar about the character: Joker, from Mass Effect. He has a debilitating bone disease that practically immobilises him, but you don't feel bad for him because he's the best spaceship pilot in the galaxy! A Super-Cripple! While that clearly panders to disabled character tropes, he was still an effective and quality character, with the only major failing being a scene where he has to help his shipmates and at best is burdened with a limp.
Men in real life come in all shapes, sizes, and fitness levels.
Men in video games come in all shapes, sizes and fitness levels.
Women in real life come in all shapes, sizes, and fitness levels.
Women in videogames come in one singular shape, size and fitness level: perfect.
This makes it patently obvious to anyone with even an ounce of intellectual honestly that there is a problem in the portrayal of women in media and especially videogames, and also makes it quite obvious to the earlier point that games are largely made by straight men for straight men, and any enjoyment women/lesbians/gays get out of it is tangential.
Bobo has made over 30 male models with similar levels of body fat as that wrench wielding borderlands female and people line up to post and cheer and texture them, but a singular women is put into a mainstream, fully-funded game with over 10% bodyfat and it's the travesty of the year for some.
Makes me want to start posting in every single thread with a screenshot or wip of a guy with less than flawless abs about how disgusting obese and sickly he is. If there were 500 more posters on every single message board, ratings site, video sharing site, and social network doing the exact same thing, all you guys would probably be anorexic or at least have a major complex... Oh wait, no that's exactly what is happening to the world's female population as a result of the monopoly on portrayal of women in media as flawless slut-bombs.
"Women in videogames come in one singular shape, size and fitness level: perfect."
I'm not agree, because... ehem, just take a look over L4D series, the female characters are average women, and real women that valve picked up for its game. Dead island is more of the same, you don't play with the "mega hot chick".
And with the koreans mmos such as Aion or Tera, you can play with a slender female or a fat female, or the most ugly character ever created.
Saints Row: The Third is another example. You are the one who chose to play with a fat/slender/ugly/muscled/etc. girl or not.
Amd another example, the Diablo 3 female Barbarian. I'm fed up of seeing fighting games such as street fighter with muscled women.
Anyone saw the women in skyrim? i can't create anything pretty... or cute...
If you look better at games, you'll find that all this rant is to generalize a lot.
Maybe you meant more realistic in terms of how many heads tall they are? These women are in no way "average" in body type. Mario is average. These women are fit as a fiddle.
First of all, there is a ton of research being done on females and video games. If you've got access to scientific magazines, you can find dozens of studies in minutes. This, in combination with the Tropes vs. women project, raises a problem, namely that Sarkeesian's work up to this point has been completely opinion piece without any scientific merit or grounding whatsoever. She does research into the subjects' background (how well that's done is another issue entirely), but the final conclusions she draws are her opinion and nothing more, regardless of which degree she may hold or how much background she has absorbed. And while I wouldn't want to silence any vocal minority - anyone has the right to free speech - it is important to realise that Anita Sarkeesian and likeminded people are, in all likelihood, a vocal minority. Her opinion is as valid as anyone's, but it's not a good 'representative' opinion (if any can be). Just be careful, and maybe read some science next to the art (considering YouTube videos to be 'art' here) while you're at it.
Secondly, it is worth asking if we're not either dodging the point or projecting our own likes and dislikes on others here as men who 'stand up' for the cause of decent portrayals of females. I quote part of the summary of a study on why girls don't play as many games as men do: "Study 1 applied conjoint analysis to female respondents (N = 317) ratings of fictional video games and demonstrated that lack of meaningful social interaction, followed by violent content and sexual gender role stereotyping of game characters, were the most important reasons why females disliked the games. Study 2, an online survey (N = 795), revealed that female respondents were less attracted to competitive elements in video games, suggesting an explanation for gender-specific game preferences."*
It also states that "In fact, respondents were not repelled by the game versions that portrayed a gender-stereotyped protagonist with sexually revealing (leather) clothing. To experience enjoyment on some dimensions, at least a portion of women interviewed were apparently ready to accept such role stereotyping (see Bryce & Rutter, 2002; Yates & Littleton, 1999)."**
My point with this being, in part, a reinforcement of my earlier argument that people such as Sarkeesian or the author of the abovementioned TF2 picture, who focus on sexuality exclusively, do (if these statistics are taken to be representative) constitute a vocal minority. Most girls and women don't play video games because they don't enjoy competition and prefer rich social interaction, a factor that's far more important than the portrayal of female bodies. Theoretically, in any case, a girl would rather play The Sims managing a house full of sluts than TF2 with female characters. Recall also, if you will, the LEGO dichotomy and the girl version drawing attention to friendship. Everything points at it just being a difference of character. You can argue that females might be more inclined to give Gears of War a chance if it featured more women (and that seems like a true observation) but yet more would give it a chance if it weren't about shooting and chainsawing monsters.
In that regard, it's worth asking yourself if you are really trying to imrpove things for women, or if you're projecting your own preferences on women. And maybe disdain for non-competitive video games is more harmful than mere visuals. I'm just a tad baffled at the argument against chainmail bikinis. A female knight with a hauberk instead is still an archetype that most women, apparently, do not aspire to, and it's silly to think that females are only 'strong' when they can break through in a more traditionally (and I'd argue biologically) male sphere such as combat. Wanting women to be portrayed more like men is admitting female inferiority from the beginning, isn't it?
Third point: stylising females is hard. Much harder than with men. I mentioned this before in the speed modeling thread, but have a look at Pixar's Brave; the men have wonderfully shaped faces, the females would be instantly forgettable if not for their hair and the way they wear it. The angular, sharp, and sometimes ugly lines of men are easily exaggerated. Subtlety and softness is hard to exaggerate. Shaylyn Hamm, who has posted on Polycount in the past under the alias ChemicalAlia, did extensive research and made plenty of concepts for a set of female TF2 characters, but they don't simply don't work as well (bless her for trying, though). The females have a weaker stylisation than the male versions. If you disagree, I can elaborate, but since you're all artists I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. (Another argument against these skins is that TF2 thrives on stereotypes, being hardly a fair depiction of Germans and Russians either, and the stereotypical mercenary simply has a Y-chromosome.)
(I dislike APA style annotation, certainly for forum posts, so here's one I'm more familiar with)
* Hartmann and Klimmt, Gender and Computer Games: Exploring Females Dislikes, Journal of Computer-Mediated Communication, 11 (2006) 910-931, there 910. It is however, worth noting that the survey, study 2, was taken by only 18 girls out the total of N = 795.
** Ibidem 920.
Maybe you meant more realistic in terms of how many heads tall they are? These women are in no way "average" in body type. Mario is average. These women are fit as a fiddle.
So you think we should make female characters in games fatter and fatter as time progresses because obesity is becoming more common? Sounds like a plan.....
Edit: I should probably clarify i mean all characters no just female, however females are what we are mainly talking about here.
First of all, there is a ton of research being done on females and video games. If you've got access to scientific magazines, you can find dozens of studies in minutes. This, in combination with the Tropes vs. women project, raises a problem, namely that Sarkeesian's work up to this point has been completely opinion piece without any scientific merit or grounding whatsoever.
Excellent post, but do you really think she managed to get a masters on this topic, (the subject of her thesis) with an "opinion piece without any scientific merit or grounding whatsoever"?
"The females have a weaker stylisation than the male versions."
Just wanted to say that that might also have to do with the skill level of the artist and the time spent and trying to stick to the male caricatures (which limits freedom).
Excellent post, but do you really think she managed to get a masters on this topic, (the subject of her thesis) with an "opinion piece without any scientific merit or grounding whatsoever"?
yes.
however, that's just my opinion (see what i did there?).
i have to ask this: how relevant in any way is her having a masters in the subject, if she doesn't actually use it in her arguments/videos?
if they're her opinion, and not just a collation of facts, then her masters is entirely irrelivent.
...do you really think she managed to get a masters on this topic, (the subject of her thesis) with an "opinion piece without any scientific merit or grounding whatsoever"?
Let's just say there's a reason college degrees these days don't mean nearly as much as they did 20-30 years ago.
Excellent post, but do you really think she managed to get a masters on this topic, (the subject of her thesis) with an "opinion piece without any scientific merit or grounding whatsoever"?
Just to clarify, then, I was talking about her YouTube videos, and assumed the Tropes vs. Women project would take a similar shape. It hasn't, in any case, shown a scientific background on its Kickstarter page, so regardless of her academic background, I have no reason to assume anything other than an opinion piece.
However, since you prompted me to, I gave her Master's thesis a read (she has it downloadable on her website). I am obviously unaware of standards in her field of studies (I'm a historian), so it's really hard to form an opinion. Sentences that start with "I dream of the day when..." aren't something I could get away with. In short, it's not meritless or unscientific, but it is too much of an opinion piece in my opinion, with the caveat that I study History and have been taught to work with Max Weber's model in which the scientist can not do other than express his person and opinion through the choice of his subject, but has to try to remain as neutral as possible on his actual findings.
That being said, it's an interesting thesis regardless that is remarkably like the argument I just made at the end of my second paragraph; I quote her: "female roles that are viewed as strong and empowered embody many masculine identified traits"* I have no idea how to reconcile her suggestion that cooperation, expression, intuition and nurture be valued as positive traits (as opposed to the current climate where (masculine) rationalism, violence and stoicism are the desirable traits for heroes)** with her distaste for LEGO Friends, though.
Well that's basically what I was saying all along. We can (and will) sit here and argue about how much attention this issue needs and how to fix it, while meanwhile the industry (and world) will just slowly get there, after all: all the guys here who are irritated with complaints about the depiction of women have always managed to find a growing pile of examples.
What makes it hard to me (and I assume the industry as a whole) is that there is no line and no rules and no way of being sure that what we're doing is better or effective. The audience always does a terrible job of telling us what they want, and in this case it is greatly coloured by personal preference, social standing, and difference between games and other media.
So apparently:
we can't fix it by just making characters that are realistically unattractive
we can't just mirror sexy women with sexy men to try and balance the sexism
we can't just make specifically targeted "games for women"
but also
we can't just leave it alone because we'll just continue to make sexist games
we can't just change everything in a big f u to current audience
we can't just make references claiming that the audience is sexist
I am surprised by how this thread shows an overall trend in trying to find the universal golden rule regarding the appropriate portrayal of all men and woman in games (and in all medias, really). Because, guess what : there is no such thing. In advertising the rule is : whatever sells (not that it is a good thing - that's just the way it is, sadly). In game design it is : whatever plays well. In storytelling it is : whatever serves the story. Now everyone is free to like or dislike what comes out of all this - but it only gets us that far.
We can easily complain and try to convince others that there is a "proper" way to do things, but that will never work. That's just not the way society works, and that's not the way artistic mediums work either.
Sure, Street Fighter has fat, skinny and muscular guys in its lineup but only fit girls. But there is actually a very good reason for it : this is what the creators wanted to do!!! Because it is their product, their design, and their universe. You cannot take that away from them just because a few like to think that "it doesn't show a wide enough spread of women body types".
Not every game needs to be an exact mirror of our society. However it's actually really cool to sit down and think about ways to do things differently than the boring stereotypes in terms of gender equity. We just have to also remember that it does not necessarily apply to everything. (the LEGO trope video was a great example of this kind of pointless criticism).
Complaining won't do much about it. What really makes the discussion progress is to *do* stuff -successfully or not! I think the Borderlands 2 fat chick design is not that great actually (looks more like a fat guy's body with a somehow female face stitched on top) but that's okay - it could work very well with good animation and voice acting. Or fail totally. Who knows!
What's funny about this image is that for some it is a good portrayal of a different kind of women ... while for others (myself included) I think it is a very smart critique (trolling ?) of the whole We Need Strong Woman argument. It shows how absurd it can be when there is no meaningful context being provided.
We could always argue that : "We really need to put fat chicks in games!! Because they exist in the real world!"
or we could argue that : "We should never put fat characters in games!! It would depict a very unhealthy, morbid lifestyle and we don't want such characters for role models! Someone think of the children!!"
At the end of the day these two justifications are both equally pointless. Every game and movie are different. We as gamers are not responsable for the lack of originality of many dev studios using always the same character archetypes ; and we as devs are not responsable for the stupidity of people trying to find offensive stuff everywhere.
It's simply all about genuinely caring for what we do on a daily basis. That's how things get to evolve and change!
But there is actually a very good reason for it : this is what the creators wanted to do!!! Because it is their product, their design, and their universe.
And there's totally no problem with this. If a developer is really into an idea, by all means, make it and make it awesome. Stick with an idea if it's something you feel strongly about or would really enjoy making. In fact, that's the only way things should ever be made.
Where I feel left out - and I do some of the time - is that there are other universes, characters and themes that are rarely explored, and might appeal more to different demographics. Not everyone's into the current body of social games, and if that's what I'm handed, thank you, but I'll sit this one out.
What's frustrating is that when these issues were discussed in the past, it seemed like they were rarely given any serious consideration. Users who complain loudly about DRM, on-disc DLC, slow load times and a plethora of other subjects are often listened to, even if it's not always acted upon. There's a large group of gamers who are bringing up something that's a pretty big issue for them, and I think developers ignore them at their peril.
I totally agree and I can relate to it - for instance, my own personal problem with a lot of games today is that many follow the exact same gameplay formula and very few games feel fresh.
I guess the real question is about finding the proper outlet for such complains (or, even better : suggestions). For instance I don't think that anyone would be able to turn a sexist/racist/douchebag yet successful scriptwriter into a better person by merely telling him that he is doing things wrong. But I do think that putting the effort into finding the good ones out there, praising their work, supporting them and trying to reproduce their success is a solid way to tackle the problem.
That's my issue with the Tropes girl in a nutshell. Her work would be more successful if she managed to give it a proactive spin, searching for the good examples and showing why they work, instead of focusing on why the bad ones don't.
A practical example of this way of looking at things would be the following : everyone on the internet can easily complain about how CoD sucks and is made for XBox retards, or scream and shout that Diablo deserves a 0 metacritic score despite playing it for 200 hours. But the ones making true, researched points about succesful game design are the ones worth paying attention to. Like this guy :
After such a video I do not feel bitter and angry about the shitty games out there - I feel elevated and empowered knowing that good ones exist and that I am lucky to play them and maybe even one day contribute to them. Yay!!
Where I feel left out - and I do some of the time - is that there are other universes, characters and themes that are rarely explored, and might appeal more to different demographics. Not everyone's into the current body of social games, and if that's what I'm handed, thank you, but I'll sit this one out.
That's what makes games such a weird product. On one hand we've got the passionate developers just making what they want to play, and they're mostly men.
Then there's what businesses making games they want to sell, for maximum profits, and they're also mostly men.
First of all, there is a ton of research being done on females and video games. If you've got access to scientific magazines, you can find dozens of studies in minutes. This, in combination with the Tropes vs. women project, raises a problem, namely that Sarkeesian's work up to this point has been completely opinion piece without any scientific merit or grounding whatsoever. She does research into the subjects' background (how well that's done is another issue entirely), but the final conclusions she draws are her opinion and nothing more, regardless of which degree she may hold or how much background she has absorbed. And while I wouldn't want to silence any vocal minority - anyone has the right to free speech - it is important to realise that Anita Sarkeesian and likeminded people are, in all likelihood, a vocal minority. Her opinion is as valid as anyone's, but it's not a good 'representative' opinion (if any can be). Just be careful, and maybe read some science next to the art (considering YouTube videos to be 'art' here) while you're at it.
Secondly, it is worth asking if we're not either dodging the point or projecting our own likes and dislikes on others here as men who 'stand up' for the cause of decent portrayals of females. I quote part of the summary of a study on why girls don't play as many games as men do: "Study 1 applied conjoint analysis to female respondents (N = 317) ratings of fictional video games and demonstrated that lack of meaningful social interaction, followed by violent content and sexual gender role stereotyping of game characters, were the most important reasons why females disliked the games. Study 2, an online survey (N = 795), revealed that female respondents were less attracted to competitive elements in video games, suggesting an explanation for gender-specific game preferences."*
It also states that "In fact, respondents were not repelled by the game versions that portrayed a gender-stereotyped protagonist with sexually revealing (leather) clothing. To experience enjoyment on some dimensions, at least a portion of women interviewed were apparently ready to accept such role stereotyping (see Bryce & Rutter, 2002; Yates & Littleton, 1999)."**
My point with this being, in part, a reinforcement of my earlier argument that people such as Sarkeesian or the author of the abovementioned TF2 picture, who focus on sexuality exclusively, do (if these statistics are taken to be representative) constitute a vocal minority. Most girls and women don't play video games because they don't enjoy competition and prefer rich social interaction, a factor that's far more important than the portrayal of female bodies. Theoretically, in any case, a girl would rather play The Sims managing a house full of sluts than TF2 with female characters. Recall also, if you will, the LEGO dichotomy and the girl version drawing attention to friendship. Everything points at it just being a difference of character. You can argue that females might be more inclined to give Gears of War a chance if it featured more women (and that seems like a true observation) but yet more would give it a chance if it weren't about shooting and chainsawing monsters.
In that regard, it's worth asking yourself if you are really trying to imrpove things for women, or if you're projecting your own preferences on women. And maybe disdain for non-competitive video games is more harmful than mere visuals. I'm just a tad baffled at the argument against chainmail bikinis. A female knight with a hauberk instead is still an archetype that most women, apparently, do not aspire to, and it's silly to think that females are only 'strong' when they can break through in a more traditionally (and I'd argue biologically) male sphere such as combat. Wanting women to be portrayed more like men is admitting female inferiority from the beginning, isn't it?
Third point: stylising females is hard. Much harder than with men. I mentioned this before in the speed modeling thread, but have a look at Pixar's Brave; the men have wonderfully shaped faces, the females would be instantly forgettable if not for their hair and the way they wear it. The angular, sharp, and sometimes ugly lines of men are easily exaggerated. Subtlety and softness is hard to exaggerate. Shaylyn Hamm, who has posted on Polycount in the past under the alias ChemicalAlia, did extensive research and made plenty of concepts for a set of female TF2 characters, but they don't simply don't work as well (bless her for trying, though). The females have a weaker stylisation than the male versions. If you disagree, I can elaborate, but since you're all artists I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. (Another argument against these skins is that TF2 thrives on stereotypes, being hardly a fair depiction of Germans and Russians either, and the stereotypical mercenary simply has a Y-chromosome.)
(I dislike APA style annotation, certainly for forum posts, so here's one I'm more familiar with)
* Hartmann and Klimmt, Gender and Computer Games: Exploring Females Dislikes, Journal of Computer-Mediated Communication, 11 (2006) 910-931, there 910. It is however, worth noting that the survey, study 2, was taken by only 18 girls out the total of N = 795.
** Ibidem 920.
Replies
You maked me LOL very hard Justin, seriously. Are you an obese and petty guy with a fetish taste for morbid women? that's what i imagine from your reaction.
Where did you leave your common sense? Where do i say that "women can only fill the role of scantily clad sex objects in games". Are you drunk? or what?
And whats wrong if we want to see beauty things in games? All the animes/games/films do not reflect reality at all (and that's what i like the most), and what's the problem if we are after something beautiful?. If you don't like to see beautiful things, you may have a HUGE PROBLEM. I remember you that almost all the female characters from occidental games are ugly, and they fall in the uncanny valley.
Do you think that making games with "average" characters, or worse... with morbid obesity like the one that snader posted, with an illness, eh man... will make the game better? sorry, but no... Fuck off with you hypocrisy!
And you dare to say me that i'm a horrible human being cuz i can't stand a morbid character? You are totally nuts and you are a total hypocrite.
Who's the horrible human being here?. If you think i am, you are the worst with no doubt.
Come on, go on vacation to miami and do some excercise, you'll see too many great females with perfect bodies.
BTW, watch well the Bless teaser video. One thing is to put chubby characters, but other thing is to put characters with an illness. Think better what you say me the next time dude.
If you don't aim your game at slack-jawed morons, you are probably going to fail.
I have been reading comments from Blaizer for years -- don't you guys realize by now he gets off on trolling you?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Fb1yZmruHFk/Tp2xxrwWf5I/AAAAAAAAFmw/vICywWSQViw/s1600/ncloudBless.jpg
Anyway. My point was not about YAY FAT PEOPLE. My point was about bringing MORE VARIATION and BALANCE. There are plenty of fat guys in games, but hardly any fat women. There are long short, skinny, average, muscular, fat, ugly, and sexy men in games. There are hardly any non-sexy women in games; this is a rare example and I felt it worthwhile to point out.
[ame="
Damnit i hate these stereotypical hot women in hot costumes.
Personally I will hold off until I see her in the game, in one of the interviews they said she kill a guy seconds into meeting her.....I don't know how I feel about that. I think the personality they give her will really make it a right or wrong choice. Because she obviously needs to hold her own in the world but I think the motives she has, and the personality they give her will define her much more than this. I think it's a step in the right direction though more variation in the females is always good imo.
Blacksmith
Male - a grizzled barrel chested man
Female - 17 year old girl dressed as a slutty blacksmith
Shopkeeper
Male - a wise old man
Female - a 17 year old girl dressed as a slutty shopkeeper, or a slutty maid
Cook
Male - a jolly fat man
female - a 17 year old girl dressed as a slutty chef
really, if the Borderlands character was a man nobody would give a shit if he was fat, everyone expects mechanics to be big fatsos but if it's a woman all the cavemen come out of the woodwork and start shouting "UGGA BUGGA SHE UGGGGGLY!"
...spit my drink out. Thanks.
Sadly, this is what people want to see in a game, teenagers the most because they are the main customers. It's not the average woman.. ok, but there are women very well proportiened and with pretty curves/faces. And... If you buy any playboy issue you will not see "normal" women.
I'm sure you have plenty of photos of hot girls in your ref folder. With that you should get the idea.
What do you think about the female work on Bioshock Infinite? that's like an anime character, and she's slender... and with a pretty face imho, the perfect doll?. Do they do a bad thing to women creating such character? i don't think so.
And with the new Tomb Raider, more of the same. The newer look of Lara is very.. very different, and there should not be any problem with her.
And for God's sake, they are only characters, they are not real.
And just another thing, i'm not trolling anyone, because i don't have any problem with chubby characters in games (i have created a lot!). If i said something in this fucking thread was because i was horrified with that character with morbid obesity from borderlands. I don't understand the reasons behind it, because if they wanted a strong woman:
look, both are real and strong women...
And err... more. This is what really damages women.
Which one would you pick?
Totally ripped ladies are great, totally huge ones are too, as are rail thin and completely average. What's damaging to women, more than depicting the super thin* or impossibly hot, is sticking to the same formula, and lumping all women into the same basic design.
I really like diversity in silhouettes, both from an artist's perspective and from a woman's, and if Valve can squeeze that many shapes out of the characters in TF2, I'm willing to bet you could get at least that many shapes for women, including, but not limited to, the go-to pin up.
*Some women are also just born naturally thin.
None of those examples particularly interest me, personal preference greatly informs our values, but is a terrible puzzle for the creators of characters, I mean they could make what I like, they could make what you like, or they could stuff us both and make what they like, or even better what's interesting and makes sense in the universe they've created.
This Ellie from Borderlands is clearly created in this way, and at that nobody has to like every character they meet. If you don't like fat women then that's ok, but they do exist so don't hate on her or on the developers for such a reason.
Good things they aren't then, the main player cast of borderlands 2 is still three cool/funny guys + a vixen.
I'm not saying that is a trope though, but I'm not the one to decide that.
Look at the variety in body types among men, women and creatures Blaizer. Isn't it odd that all women have the same physique?
Not to mention, but once again it's a Japanese game. And hasn't this thread already gone over the "sexy is sexist" problem with a conclusion that it's the depth and variety of the characters that's failing?
I mut be the odd one here then since there is TONS of variety/nonsexy chick in games i've played -_-'
If you think Roll is sexy ( as in OMG i wanna have sex with her!! )
then i have a very bad news for you
seriously ythough you have an odd attitude to women , it's one thing to go for an ideal doll kind of woman, but fat girls are not evil or repulsive in any way.
love this from 2000 ad
personally I love the borderlands concept
if they make her a slightly aggressive personality - typical angry fatty.
if they make her a soft and loving personality - typical "lovely person" fatty.
if they make her a slightly feminist personality - lol typical lesbo fatty.
Aww but they are of different ethnicities and hair colours right?
Those rules do not in any way apply to fighting games.
Edit: nothing is wrong with having a large amount of physically perfect fighters, but you never get the female rufus.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/jtes/the-strongest-woman-in-america-lives-in-poverty
http://my.deviantart.com/messages/#/d57qco9
both are pretty interesting, the second in particular (from an artists perspective). sure, the guys drawing isn't the best in the world, but i don't see anything WRONG with it from an anatomical point of view. so i think he's entirely right to be pissed that he's essentially been told "stop drawing fat chicks" by the comic book industry.
That's not what I was talking about. All my posts in here have been about proportions, fat, build, amount of muscle.
Like all of us, i have my preferences, and i dislike to see an ugly female character, that's all. I prefer cute, slender, hot girls instead of a morbid woman, like all of us... i think. Do you understand that? it's simple.
In too many fighting games we can see the "muscled woman"... in other games, chubby women. So this rant is pointless imho, i find it pretty stupid, and more coming from a jealous woman that only pretends to brainwash as many people as possible. Don't say me you ended brainwashed...
Why the heck there aren't men ranting about games and its stereotypical male characters with perfect and muscled bodies?. I remember you that in polycount there's a belly club.
With the Borderlands concept, I think they have had a very bad taste using a disease, morbid obesity, just to create a character. That's gross.
My last words:obesity is not beauty.
I love this take on female versions of TF2 because they still have the same look as the male versions but with slight changes to make them no all dudes.
http://www.gamer.ru/system/attached_images/images/000/003/901/original/2471-59830-1197780961897jpg-noscale.jpg?1241707397
They not made sexy, just a female version of the same of class. The heavy is not fat, but is built like the body builder from last page. Just because a character has tits doesn't mean they have to be all curves. Yes we make games for guys who want to see TnA but you can still have "hot" female characters that are not naked or curvier than a playboy bunny.
That said we have teems that we have to sell to, and they want the TnA and the uber hot chicks, but that doesn't mean that every character has to look like that.
A good guideline for character design is this, would someone want to dress up like this character?
But you could make that argument about any character. I mean aren't we just exploiting race, social status, age, mental development, religion and many other factors of human life to create interesting characters? Also the only reason that Gearbox are making are showing off this character and pointing out how she's fat and all is to apply satire to this entire topic: it's not her character that's exploiting fat people, it's the developers exploiting the current media spotlight with a fat person.
edit: one of my lecturers said something similar about the character: Joker, from Mass Effect. He has a debilitating bone disease that practically immobilises him, but you don't feel bad for him because he's the best spaceship pilot in the galaxy! A Super-Cripple! While that clearly panders to disabled character tropes, he was still an effective and quality character, with the only major failing being a scene where he has to help his shipmates and at best is burdened with a limp.
Men in real life come in all shapes, sizes, and fitness levels.
Men in video games come in all shapes, sizes and fitness levels.
Women in real life come in all shapes, sizes, and fitness levels.
Women in videogames come in one singular shape, size and fitness level: perfect.
This makes it patently obvious to anyone with even an ounce of intellectual honestly that there is a problem in the portrayal of women in media and especially videogames, and also makes it quite obvious to the earlier point that games are largely made by straight men for straight men, and any enjoyment women/lesbians/gays get out of it is tangential.
Bobo has made over 30 male models with similar levels of body fat as that wrench wielding borderlands female and people line up to post and cheer and texture them, but a singular women is put into a mainstream, fully-funded game with over 10% bodyfat and it's the travesty of the year for some.
Makes me want to start posting in every single thread with a screenshot or wip of a guy with less than flawless abs about how disgusting obese and sickly he is. If there were 500 more posters on every single message board, ratings site, video sharing site, and social network doing the exact same thing, all you guys would probably be anorexic or at least have a major complex... Oh wait, no that's exactly what is happening to the world's female population as a result of the monopoly on portrayal of women in media as flawless slut-bombs.
I love how the pyro is identical to the original version, hahahah.
I'm not agree, because... ehem, just take a look over L4D series, the female characters are average women, and real women that valve picked up for its game. Dead island is more of the same, you don't play with the "mega hot chick".
And with the koreans mmos such as Aion or Tera, you can play with a slender female or a fat female, or the most ugly character ever created.
Saints Row: The Third is another example. You are the one who chose to play with a fat/slender/ugly/muscled/etc. girl or not.
Amd another example, the Diablo 3 female Barbarian. I'm fed up of seeing fighting games such as street fighter with muscled women.
Anyone saw the women in skyrim? i can't create anything pretty... or cute...
If you look better at games, you'll find that all this rant is to generalize a lot.
First of all, there is a ton of research being done on females and video games. If you've got access to scientific magazines, you can find dozens of studies in minutes. This, in combination with the Tropes vs. women project, raises a problem, namely that Sarkeesian's work up to this point has been completely opinion piece without any scientific merit or grounding whatsoever. She does research into the subjects' background (how well that's done is another issue entirely), but the final conclusions she draws are her opinion and nothing more, regardless of which degree she may hold or how much background she has absorbed. And while I wouldn't want to silence any vocal minority - anyone has the right to free speech - it is important to realise that Anita Sarkeesian and likeminded people are, in all likelihood, a vocal minority. Her opinion is as valid as anyone's, but it's not a good 'representative' opinion (if any can be). Just be careful, and maybe read some science next to the art (considering YouTube videos to be 'art' here) while you're at it.
Secondly, it is worth asking if we're not either dodging the point or projecting our own likes and dislikes on others here as men who 'stand up' for the cause of decent portrayals of females. I quote part of the summary of a study on why girls don't play as many games as men do: "Study 1 applied conjoint analysis to female respondents (N = 317) ratings of fictional video games and demonstrated that lack of meaningful social interaction, followed by violent content and sexual gender role stereotyping of game characters, were the most important reasons why females disliked the games. Study 2, an online survey (N = 795), revealed that female respondents were less attracted to competitive elements in video games, suggesting an explanation for gender-specific game preferences."*
It also states that "In fact, respondents were not repelled by the game versions that portrayed a gender-stereotyped protagonist with sexually revealing (leather) clothing. To experience enjoyment on some dimensions, at least a portion of women interviewed were apparently ready to accept such role stereotyping (see Bryce & Rutter, 2002; Yates & Littleton, 1999)."**
My point with this being, in part, a reinforcement of my earlier argument that people such as Sarkeesian or the author of the abovementioned TF2 picture, who focus on sexuality exclusively, do (if these statistics are taken to be representative) constitute a vocal minority. Most girls and women don't play video games because they don't enjoy competition and prefer rich social interaction, a factor that's far more important than the portrayal of female bodies. Theoretically, in any case, a girl would rather play The Sims managing a house full of sluts than TF2 with female characters. Recall also, if you will, the LEGO dichotomy and the girl version drawing attention to friendship. Everything points at it just being a difference of character. You can argue that females might be more inclined to give Gears of War a chance if it featured more women (and that seems like a true observation) but yet more would give it a chance if it weren't about shooting and chainsawing monsters.
In that regard, it's worth asking yourself if you are really trying to imrpove things for women, or if you're projecting your own preferences on women. And maybe disdain for non-competitive video games is more harmful than mere visuals. I'm just a tad baffled at the argument against chainmail bikinis. A female knight with a hauberk instead is still an archetype that most women, apparently, do not aspire to, and it's silly to think that females are only 'strong' when they can break through in a more traditionally (and I'd argue biologically) male sphere such as combat. Wanting women to be portrayed more like men is admitting female inferiority from the beginning, isn't it?
Third point: stylising females is hard. Much harder than with men. I mentioned this before in the speed modeling thread, but have a look at Pixar's Brave; the men have wonderfully shaped faces, the females would be instantly forgettable if not for their hair and the way they wear it. The angular, sharp, and sometimes ugly lines of men are easily exaggerated. Subtlety and softness is hard to exaggerate. Shaylyn Hamm, who has posted on Polycount in the past under the alias ChemicalAlia, did extensive research and made plenty of concepts for a set of female TF2 characters, but they don't simply don't work as well (bless her for trying, though). The females have a weaker stylisation than the male versions. If you disagree, I can elaborate, but since you're all artists I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. (Another argument against these skins is that TF2 thrives on stereotypes, being hardly a fair depiction of Germans and Russians either, and the stereotypical mercenary simply has a Y-chromosome.)
(I dislike APA style annotation, certainly for forum posts, so here's one I'm more familiar with)
* Hartmann and Klimmt, Gender and Computer Games: Exploring Females Dislikes, Journal of Computer-Mediated Communication, 11 (2006) 910-931, there 910. It is however, worth noting that the survey, study 2, was taken by only 18 girls out the total of N = 795.
** Ibidem 920.
So you think we should make female characters in games fatter and fatter as time progresses because obesity is becoming more common? Sounds like a plan.....
Edit: I should probably clarify i mean all characters no just female, however females are what we are mainly talking about here.
Excellent post, but do you really think she managed to get a masters on this topic, (the subject of her thesis) with an "opinion piece without any scientific merit or grounding whatsoever"?
Just wanted to say that that might also have to do with the skill level of the artist and the time spent and trying to stick to the male caricatures (which limits freedom).
yes.
however, that's just my opinion (see what i did there?).
i have to ask this: how relevant in any way is her having a masters in the subject, if she doesn't actually use it in her arguments/videos?
if they're her opinion, and not just a collation of facts, then her masters is entirely irrelivent.
Let's just say there's a reason college degrees these days don't mean nearly as much as they did 20-30 years ago.
However, since you prompted me to, I gave her Master's thesis a read (she has it downloadable on her website). I am obviously unaware of standards in her field of studies (I'm a historian), so it's really hard to form an opinion. Sentences that start with "I dream of the day when..." aren't something I could get away with. In short, it's not meritless or unscientific, but it is too much of an opinion piece in my opinion, with the caveat that I study History and have been taught to work with Max Weber's model in which the scientist can not do other than express his person and opinion through the choice of his subject, but has to try to remain as neutral as possible on his actual findings.
That being said, it's an interesting thesis regardless that is remarkably like the argument I just made at the end of my second paragraph; I quote her: "female roles that are viewed as strong and empowered embody many masculine identified traits"* I have no idea how to reconcile her suggestion that cooperation, expression, intuition and nurture be valued as positive traits (as opposed to the current climate where (masculine) rationalism, violence and stoicism are the desirable traits for heroes)** with her distaste for LEGO Friends, though.
* ii
** 46, 47
What makes it hard to me (and I assume the industry as a whole) is that there is no line and no rules and no way of being sure that what we're doing is better or effective. The audience always does a terrible job of telling us what they want, and in this case it is greatly coloured by personal preference, social standing, and difference between games and other media.
So apparently:
- we can't fix it by just making characters that are realistically unattractive
- we can't just mirror sexy women with sexy men to try and balance the sexism
- we can't just make specifically targeted "games for women"
but alsoProject Mirai
WoW
Blaz Blue
.....
yawn~
Yep! definetely singular shape allright!
We can easily complain and try to convince others that there is a "proper" way to do things, but that will never work. That's just not the way society works, and that's not the way artistic mediums work either.
Sure, Street Fighter has fat, skinny and muscular guys in its lineup but only fit girls. But there is actually a very good reason for it : this is what the creators wanted to do!!! Because it is their product, their design, and their universe. You cannot take that away from them just because a few like to think that "it doesn't show a wide enough spread of women body types".
Not every game needs to be an exact mirror of our society. However it's actually really cool to sit down and think about ways to do things differently than the boring stereotypes in terms of gender equity. We just have to also remember that it does not necessarily apply to everything. (the LEGO trope video was a great example of this kind of pointless criticism).
Complaining won't do much about it. What really makes the discussion progress is to *do* stuff -successfully or not! I think the Borderlands 2 fat chick design is not that great actually (looks more like a fat guy's body with a somehow female face stitched on top) but that's okay - it could work very well with good animation and voice acting. Or fail totally. Who knows!
What's funny about this image is that for some it is a good portrayal of a different kind of women ... while for others (myself included) I think it is a very smart critique (trolling ?) of the whole We Need Strong Woman argument. It shows how absurd it can be when there is no meaningful context being provided.
We could always argue that : "We really need to put fat chicks in games!! Because they exist in the real world!"
or we could argue that : "We should never put fat characters in games!! It would depict a very unhealthy, morbid lifestyle and we don't want such characters for role models! Someone think of the children!!"
At the end of the day these two justifications are both equally pointless. Every game and movie are different. We as gamers are not responsable for the lack of originality of many dev studios using always the same character archetypes ; and we as devs are not responsable for the stupidity of people trying to find offensive stuff everywhere.
It's simply all about genuinely caring for what we do on a daily basis. That's how things get to evolve and change!
And there's totally no problem with this. If a developer is really into an idea, by all means, make it and make it awesome. Stick with an idea if it's something you feel strongly about or would really enjoy making. In fact, that's the only way things should ever be made.
Where I feel left out - and I do some of the time - is that there are other universes, characters and themes that are rarely explored, and might appeal more to different demographics. Not everyone's into the current body of social games, and if that's what I'm handed, thank you, but I'll sit this one out.
What's frustrating is that when these issues were discussed in the past, it seemed like they were rarely given any serious consideration. Users who complain loudly about DRM, on-disc DLC, slow load times and a plethora of other subjects are often listened to, even if it's not always acted upon. There's a large group of gamers who are bringing up something that's a pretty big issue for them, and I think developers ignore them at their peril.
I guess the real question is about finding the proper outlet for such complains (or, even better : suggestions). For instance I don't think that anyone would be able to turn a sexist/racist/douchebag yet successful scriptwriter into a better person by merely telling him that he is doing things wrong. But I do think that putting the effort into finding the good ones out there, praising their work, supporting them and trying to reproduce their success is a solid way to tackle the problem.
That's my issue with the Tropes girl in a nutshell. Her work would be more successful if she managed to give it a proactive spin, searching for the good examples and showing why they work, instead of focusing on why the bad ones don't.
A practical example of this way of looking at things would be the following : everyone on the internet can easily complain about how CoD sucks and is made for XBox retards, or scream and shout that Diablo deserves a 0 metacritic score despite playing it for 200 hours. But the ones making true, researched points about succesful game design are the ones worth paying attention to. Like this guy :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM
After such a video I do not feel bitter and angry about the shitty games out there - I feel elevated and empowered knowing that good ones exist and that I am lucky to play them and maybe even one day contribute to them. Yay!!
That's what makes games such a weird product. On one hand we've got the passionate developers just making what they want to play, and they're mostly men.
Then there's what businesses making games they want to sell, for maximum profits, and they're also mostly men.
This is a really fantastic post.