I personally found the situation to be pretty fair and logical. If there's something I learned it's that being an asshole could backfire in the most unexpected of ways.
If a someone comes up to you on the street and asks for a light and you just flip him off, chances are someday it'll be someone with a nervous breakdown who'll end up stabbing you.
The only way to stay safe is to never be an asshole. As simple as this.
I don't see no remorse in this guy, he still doesn't get what a child he is.
I also don't think penny arcade done anything wrong posting this. Even further so I think the whole "private conversation thing" is a bit unnecessary.
If you ever-ever say something that, turned public could backfire at you, you don't go around complaining and people posting stuff - you just DON'T TALK SHIT instead. You are the one to blame no matter how things go. And having a bad day is nowhere near a decent excuse.
The harassments will stop eventually and I just hope no one goes out of their way and does more then foul-mouth him back.
Changing a few e-mails would be a good idea for him.
anyway, that's a very peculiar case. Who would've thought 20 years ago...
If you ever-ever say something that, turned public could backfire at you, you don't go around complaining and people posting stuff - you just DON'T TALK SHIT instead. You are the one to blame no matter how things go.
Bingo.
“Our character is what we do when we think no one is looking.” - H. Jackson Brown Jr.
Dunno, reading his first 3 replies to the Ocean Marketing, he was very polite, and simply eager about receiving the product. After the guy kept being extremely dismissive he replied with a completely logical point about how he could get a refund, then buy the same product for a cheaper price.
<WARNING, INCOMING TERRIBLE ANALOGY>
Now imagine you go to Waffle House around 5:50, and you order a waffle.
5:51: You order a tasty waffle.
6:00: A special starts where customers get waffles half off.
6:02: Two hipsters walk in, and order delicious waffles.
6:20: Miffed that you have to eat cold waffles next to hipsters you politely ask your waitress if you can also get your waffles half off.
6:20: Waitress swears at, and murders you.
6:21: ????????
Personally, if I pay for some service that turns out not to be adequate, or as advertised, and the person providing the service is being dismissive, I will flip my shit. Sometimes if you're polite to people providing you service for payment, they're either dismissive, or polite. Other times, they're dicks, and you really shouldn't have to deal with it.
My only real problem with this is that internet mob mentality ends up with people abusing those peripherally related to the victim. Also, the fact that the entire product is sinking in value because of this is total bullshit. Even as a baby trolling innocuous forums like OC Remix, I've seen totally illogical madness happen, over completely normal shit that people do. And the worst part about it is that the same people indignant about someone's questionable internet etiquette don't seem to give 1/3rd of a fuck about something that matters.
Anyway, that's my take.
(how funny would it be if everyone here started a nuclear arms race about this issue, and got eachother fired it'd be hilarious)
I understand how the customer was right and how he was treated very unfairly. He was, as you say, polite at the beginning and I would have been pretty pissed at that point too. He brought up some good points in his complaint. However, this is just unnecessary;
"You look really douchy be having one youtube video complaining about the noise of traffic next to your home and then another video showing off your obnoxiously loud rice rocket (which is nice, I gotta hand it ya)." and "Welcome to the internet, bitch. Thats how I roll.".
The customer was a bit over the top, however anyone working in customer service should expect to hear from angry people when products that they paid for are late and there is no word on when they will arrive. (and he wasn't even rude in the initial email) So while the customer might have been a dick... the PR rep is for sure the worst offender here. It's his job to try to get everyone on good terms and offer to do the best he can to fix things or get the information requested.
The dudes comment about AAA titles is ridiculous too.
Yes no one complains when blizzard pushes back a release date... but that is what we expect. There's a knowledge at preorder time that pretty much everything they make besides WoW expansions will be delayed. However this company set a ship date and failed to make it and never made an announcement... the company now owes the customer for breaking a promise not saying a word about it during holiday season (the worst time of the year to miss a ship date.)
I understand how the customer was right and how he was treated very unfairly. He was, as you say, polite at the beginning and I would have been pretty pissed at that point too. He brought up some good points in his complaint. However, this is just unnecessary;
"You look really douchy be having one youtube video complaining about the noise of traffic next to your home and then another video showing off your obnoxiously loud rice rocket (which is nice, I gotta hand it ya)." and "Welcome to the internet, bitch. Thats how I roll.".
True, the internet justice is the last outpost of any kind of justice. I just think that he had several chances to fix this both with Mike and then with the internet itself.
Instead of first trying to sue penny arcade and then pleading in a way just to save his own face and still be able to look cool in the end of the day he should've come clean in a none douchy way,
Yet in every following mail to Mike he failed at doing so, just further showing how this wasn't just a bad day but the core of his person, and then his interviews yet furthers the issue.
"I didn't know who that guy at Penny Arcade was. If I had known, I would have treated the situation a little better."
Shows pretty well that he's not getting it, he truly is sorry that he got caught.
Mike doesn't have the power, he has.
My only real problem with this is that internet mob mentality ends up with people abusing those peripherally related to the victim.)
Yep, that's the sad part of it, internet and non internet. Even the bad guys of the world will have innocent families, that have been treated just as the bad guy has.
...Yes no one complains when blizzard pushes back a release date...
Go check the diablo 3 official forums. There are plenty of people complaining they preordered and dont even get a release date. They "gave their money to blizzard, and deserve a release date". Which I think is BS, seeing as it was their choice to pre-order flat out knowing there was no release date.
Apparently Paul is a 1 man PR firm. So an email to his employer would do no good. He is his own boss. And in that interview with him, linked on the first page of this thread, he said he hasnt lost any business over this yet. Clients have asked him about it, but they dont seem to care, and most of them just laugh it off. Which could be completely false as well, but who knows.
I think the customer was wrong as well for sending the lengthy lengthy bitch fest email. He could have been more professional and calm about it. Yes, Paul initiated with the whole "grow up and wait for your stuff like everyone else" comment, but lets be honest here.... Paul is just an idiot that should never have gotten into PR.
His latest "apology" is pretty fucking bad. Easily the worst I've seen. It actually made me care even less about him than after I read the shit on Penny-Arcade.
The whole situation is just dumb.
haha this guy is completely bonkers. literally every apology/compliment is followed with an insult.
"I still love the gaming community....... but I don't know what kind of lives these people have."
"Not that I don't have respect for anybody..... but if someone's being a little punk they don't deserve respect"
It reminds me of south park when Cartman's memory is completely skewed from reality
Apparently Paul is a 1 man PR firm. So an email to his employer would do no good. He is his own boss. And in that interview with him, linked on the first page of this thread, he said he hasnt lost any business over this yet. Clients have asked him about it, but they dont seem to care, and most of them just laugh it off. Which could be completely false as well, but who knows.
Yer, because he's not going to say "oh I'm ruined because of this" is he? He can't even manage an apology properly without insulting more people, I wouldn't trust him to tell the truth on anything (especially with his previous form).
I really love what the Penny Arcade guys do, but as soon as I saw word "bully" being thrown around my eyes started rolling. C'mon now, the guy is just a jackass. Nothing less and nothing more.
I know the Penny Arcade guys have gone through a lot of adversity in their past but this whole attention seeking, chip on the shoulder attitude gets tired.
The fact that he banned them from PAX is a good, strong and effective statement about maintaining good customer relations, but when he made it about himself all of a sudden was just not necessary.
I totally understand the passion and emotion on the side of Mike when it comes to something like this, but what Penny Arcade accomplished in the nerd/geek culture is a larger testament. It needn't more.
I haven't read this whole thread yet, but did read those emails. Sounds like everyone is acting a little childish in my opinion.
I would agree that everyone acted a 'little childish', though some alot more then others. I think the point being made is the childish behavior started with the customer service rep. As someone who has done customer service and IT, rule #1 is like don't EVER do or say anything that would be seen as antagonistic to the customer. Because they will escalate that shit quicker then you can blink. Why wouldn't they? They're not the one being paid to be professional.
I think Penny Arcade might even have jumped on the wagon a little too hard as well. It's like he was watching the fight from the outside looking in, and was just itching for the first opportunity to jump in and make it personal. I don't have any problem with any of the actions they took, but more of the words they expressed. But hey go to their site, they have a blog post about semen week, so whatcha gonna do. And this is coming from someone who loves Penny Arcade.
Putting this discussion aside, whos side are you guys on?
Customer's side? You know 90% of the customers are selfish jerks.
Customer service side? That is useless because no matter what, eventually customer service rep takes the blame and walks with many insults. (regardless of what he has done) It is his job to take shit from the customers and utter nothing but a thank you or an apology. And on top of it, do whatever he can to keep customer happy. Keeping a customer happy will keep the CEO's of the company he represents, happy. So, practically, if he loses his cool with any customer, it will cost him his job.
No point in taking sides unless you're real invested in what's going on, from my point of view. It's an interesting read but at the end of the day it's just one instance of many, this one just happened to go viral.
I disagree Goraaz. Remember that one guy paid to be abused, and the other was paid to abuse him, in principle with his money. This isn't a position of two douchebags going off on each other, this is a customer interaction. Even if the customer is acting like an asshole, you are making money, and he is giving money for proper treatment. Here, PR Bro is absolutely in the wrong, is absolutely the most disrespectful of the two, and when you add in his job position it's inexcusable.
And just because he got exposed it's oh so sad for him? After he kept acting worse and worse and worse to two different people for no particular reason other than to feel good about himself? What should happen? We should let a baboon like this sit in a chair and pretend to be a businessman? Let the internet crucify him and hopefully the next guy like him will think twice.
To me this is refreshing, personal information is so easily accessible these days that you can't just hide behind your computer and be a total cunt. Does this disturb me? Not in the slightest, don't be a total fuckwit, and for christ sake do not be a total fuckwit with your real name while representing multiple companies. If you want to be a fuckwit go to 4chan and do it anonymously.
The guy has absolutely noone to blame but himself in this instance. He isn't some innocent victim here, he should know full well how easy it is to track people down as he says:
Son Im 38 I wwebsite as on the internet when you were a sperm in your daddys balls and before it was the internet,".
Just because you're hiding behind your computer screen being a jackass and you won't be punched directly in the face doesn't mean you're free from the repercussions of your own idiotic actions. This is a good lesson for humanity.
A sad day when people sit around feeling sorry for internet toughguys who finally get what was long coming to them.
Putting this discussion aside, whos side are you guys on?
Customer's side? You know 90% of the customers are selfish jerks.
Customer service side? That is useless because no matter what, eventually customer service rep takes the blame and walks with many insults. (regardless of what he has done) It is his job to take shit from the customers and utter nothing but a thank you or an apology. And on top of it, do whatever he can to keep customer happy. Keeping a customer happy will keep the CEO's of the company he represents, happy. So, practically, if he loses his cool with any customer, it will cost him his job.
So, whoz side you are exactly on. =\
It's just a case of a dude being a douche. Nothing new. The only reason we're talking about it is because Penny Arcade got involved. Maybe a little too much.
To me this is refreshing, personal information is so easily accessible these days that you can't just hide behind your computer and be a total cunt. Does this disturb me? Not in the slightest, don't be a total fuckwit, and for christ sake do not be a total fuckwit with your real name while representing multiple companies. If you want to be a fuckwit go to 4chan and do it anonymously.
The guy has absolutely noone to blame but himself in this instance. He isn't some innocent victim here, he should know full well how easy it is to track people down as he says:
Just because you're hiding behind your computer screen being a jackass and you won't be punched directly in the face doesn't mean you're free from the repercussions of your own idiotic actions. This is a good lesson for humanity.
A sad day when people sit around feeling sorry for internet toughguys who finally get what was long coming to them.
Who is the bigger cunt here - the PR douche or the guy that decided to launch an online lynching campaign against an individual for being an unfriendly ass (knowing perfectly well how ugly things can get on the net)? Also: the fact that its easy to track down a person does not matter until somebody puts a bull's eye on that person's forehead.
A sad day when people sit around feeling sorry for internet toughguys who finally get what was long coming to them.
Aren't the guys phoning him at home and threatening him more of the same 'internet toughguys'.I don't disagree that the guy needed a smack but no one deserves internet mob justice.
Two Listen: the customer is right ESPECIALLY when they are obviously wrong and upset. I never said it's easy, good customer support is social engineering with the goal of keeping your customer happy.
It's a shame about the internet mob attack but he should of known the risks that come with the job.
Aren't the guys phoning him at home and threatening him more of the same 'internet toughguys'.I don't disagree that the guy needed a smack but no one deserves internet mob justice.
psychotic opportunists, there's really no point to it, especially when the best weapons against him has been his own words, tweets and facts.
It's pretty much the same as the people who will smash things and steal stuff during much needed protests.
Two Listen: the customer is right ESPECIALLY when they are obviously wrong and upset. I never said it's easy, good customer support is social engineering with the goal of keeping your customer happy.
Exactly, the term "the customer is always right" isn't meant to be by the word, it's a saying incorporating the means to properly handle a customer and how to end up with a pleased one, and therefor a properly positive PR image for your company or the one you are representing.
Two Listen: the customer is right ESPECIALLY when they are obviously wrong and upset.
...I think we might not be seeing eye to eye on the meaning of the word "right". If by "the customer is always right" you mean "the customer deserves your patience and best efforts", then you and I are in agreement.
But then it seems to me you might as well just say it. It's not like it takes a lot more effort to say so.
Who is the bigger cunt here - the PR douche or the guy that decided to launch an online lynching campaign against an individual for being an unfriendly ass (knowing perfectly well how ugly things can get on the net)? Also: the fact that its easy to track down a person does not matter until somebody puts a bull's eye on that person's forehead.
Again, I point out. How HYPOCRITICAL using that logic is.
Mike had no way of knowing how far some would take it. While at the same time, how the MAJORITY have simple just read it and moved on. All he did was spread information. He cannot be held responsible in any degree for those that misuse it.
Its like releasing a violent game and someone misuses it for real life violence. Now, is the company that released the violent game at fault? Or the person who thinks said game gives them the ok to go out and hurt others?
If you say the game company, then WTF are you doing in game development?
Aren't the guys phoning him at home and threatening him more of the same 'internet toughguys'.I don't disagree that the guy needed a smack but no one deserves internet mob justice.
Certainly, but just because one asshole meets another even bigger asshole, doesn't mean I'm going to start feeling bad for the "lesser" asshole.
Two Listen: the customer is right ESPECIALLY when they are obviously wrong and upset. I never said it's easy, good customer support is social engineering with the goal of keeping your customer happy.
It's a shame about the internet mob attack but he should of known the risks that come with the job.
Exactly right...
your customer is right even when he is wrong is part of what makes the job "work".
And a skill. Anyone working with the public has to find the positive solution under the same circumstances.
However, in this economy...
There seems to be more people in customer services that would have never have taken such jobs than ever before. And they obviously do not feel obligated to be positive in a job that is beneath them. There are a lot of unhappy people out there.
Sometimes in the US I feel it's as if we will never be able to return to anything resembling service or polite professionalism. The idea that some here really believe that everyone is a bully to some one and that everyone is that asshole on a bad day is very depressing. That there is a large jaded sarcastic group that truley believes as much is obvious. ( jes turn on the internet ). But there is a huge group of delicate panseys out there that would prefer a positive and polite society. The older you get it seems that most people feel that way... It might not seem that way because bullying is louder.
I wish I could say that I achieved as much myself but I am still learning to control my temper and my ego. I would like to think I am winning. But I know enough not to take that customer related job anymore. ( customer related jobs are not beneath me... I am not good enough for them )
Speaking of "it being to late for the US" to return to professional customer service...
One good case in point is the local McDonalds drive through ( not the same corporate comparison but just as valid an example )
In parts of the country they have pre-recorded opening recordings specifically to accomplish all the customer related tasks that can not be accomplished by employable humans ( not only promoting specials in a professional and polite manner that would make a positive sale but it becomes obvious when the human finishes the order how superior the recording is! )
Sad thing is, everytime I point this out before approaching the drive through...
Everyobe "gets it'! And just how bad things have gotten. Wasn't so bad in traditionally hard working blue collar cities and perhaps some polite red states where the population would make abusive service immpossible, but everyday there seems to be more assholes, slackers and deadbeats.
Ridiculous. Mike has done this before, multiple times!
Anyone 'in' the online community knows how far people take these things. Completely absurd to say otherwise.
Mike also knows that the majority did not by that same token. You are focusing on the minority who took it into their own hands to escalate things and attempt to blame Mike.
Like I said, then your a hypocrite if you work in our industry. By your logic. Someone somewhere will misconstrue a violent game. As such the publisher/developer is responsible for what happens. If you say this is true, then your being consistent. But I question why you would want to work in our industry then?
Except nobody misconstrued anything. If a publisher knowingly produced a game that was established to incite violence, that would be a bad thing to do. I defend violent games because they do no harm, as far as i can gather. If i learned they actually did incite violence i would turn against them instantly.
I think you're proposing a bit of a false dichotomy with the hypocrisy thing. It's possible to think mike's behavior was wrong because of his intent, or of his power, or of his results, without necessarily vilifying everyone who's ever done something similar.
Mike knowingly made a post that would incite harassment. And then made a comment and two news posts about how proud he was of it.
He's definitely not ignorant to that minority. It doesnt matter that the majority didnt, it matters that the minority DID, and that mike knew it was going to happen and publicly relishes in it.
I feel no sympathy for this asshole, i just also feel disgust with mike.
Again, I point out. How HYPOCRITICAL using that logic is.
Mike had no way of knowing how far some would take it. While at the same time, how the MAJORITY have simple just read it and moved on. All he did was spread information. He cannot be held responsible in any degree for those that misuse it.
Its like releasing a violent game and someone misuses it for real life violence. Now, is the company that released the violent game at fault? Or the person who thinks said game gives them the ok to go out and hurt others?
If you say the game company, then WTF are you doing in game development?
"Now, is the company...at fault?" - Ladies and gentlemen: we have a winner!
If we stick to your example, the question would be wether the murderous lunatic or John Carmack were at fault. That puts a slightly different perspective on things, doesnt it?
In other words: even if its a one-man show I dont see why he had to post personal details - just giving out the company's name/homepage would have been sufficient to take care of the professional/business/whateveryouwannacallit aspect of this. The fact that he went farther than that should tell you that this was not just about "getting the word out" on a shitty company.
As for hipocrisy: in the context of the situation, you dont post somebody's personal info on the net, in a little niche dedicated to videogames, and assume that it will be handled responsibly by any and all users...
I'm totally fine with how Mike at PA responded to this. He's not ruining this PR douche's name or rep or whatever - PR douche did that to himself. If you see a thief breaking into your neighbor's house and call the police, it's not your 'fault' that a pair of squad cars roll up and the thief gets arrested.
So, its not your fault if the thief is BnEing at neighbor's house and you call the police.
Well, technically its Neighbor's fault for not setting up the alarm system for his house and your fault, because you are stalking the neighbor. o.O How else would you know the thief is in his house.
Suprore: that's my point too. I think Mike made it a little about himself. I think PA is better than that.
It's also a bit of a bummer that the company responsible for the neat peripheral are having to do some major firefighting. Hopefully they make it through this. Lessons learned.
I'm usually a big fan of PA, however what Mike did was totally out of hand, and then defending the harassment that happened by saying "I was bullied as a kid, and therefor I'm allowed to be an asshole and a bully myself" was just disgusting...
I was being bullied as a kid, but I have enough self-respect and respect for others to just be the bigger man and turn away from crap like this. Sure the PR-man was an asshole, but by doing as Mike did, he turned himself into an even bigger one.
I'm disgusted by the PA actions and I feel sorry for the harassment the PR-guy's family has had as a result of the internet mob mentallity.
"I know you're just a guy doing a job and you don't know any better. I'm gonna ruin your life if I have to." - him threatening the new guy that was his replacement.
This guy's a con-man douche, if Mike didn't get involved he'd still be taking advantage of small companies and ruining their reputations.
Gooooooood... so fucking what?? There's million of con-man douches in the world. Korinkidink or whatever his name is has done far more damage to his own companies name than the damage he has supposedly 'prevented' befalling companies.
He sounds like a man who knows how to conduct his business, even to the point of going online and saying things that should normally not be said. But in the context of this case it's a brilliant move on his part to bring the dirty laundry out in the open along with all the rest. As long as he doesn't overdo it he'll come out smelling like roses with a secure job, and PR Asshat will eat shit in court.
Gooooooood... so fucking what?? There's million of con-man douches in the world. Korinkidink or whatever his name is has done far more damage to his own companies name than the damage he has supposedly 'prevented' befalling companies.
I'm pretty sure he's just pissing off people who didn't like Penny Arcade to begin with.
There was an incident in Sweden a while ago. A girl accused some guy of raping him. People thought this was a false accusation so they started terrorizing her, much like the way people have done here towards this PR guy. When people found out that the girl apparently HAD been raped they changed the direction of their terror towards the accused rapist and started making his life miserable instead. It was like they didn't learn anything from their incredibly ignorant mistake and continued doing it.
People laugh off the angry mobs from the old days as if it's some mentality that we've grown out of. The sad thing is that these mobs are just as bad as before and now they have better technology to perform their idiocy. I fully agree with your last post, Zpanzer. It's a shame that you changed your opinion so quickly. It shouldn't matter if the victim of these mobs are mean PR assholes or cocky 12 year old girls. I don't think any of them deserve it, guilty or not.
With all of that being said I'm not really sure how this thread helps us any further? It's not exactly relevant to game art and it's just bringing out hate.
Replies
If a someone comes up to you on the street and asks for a light and you just flip him off, chances are someday it'll be someone with a nervous breakdown who'll end up stabbing you.
The only way to stay safe is to never be an asshole. As simple as this.
I don't see no remorse in this guy, he still doesn't get what a child he is.
I also don't think penny arcade done anything wrong posting this. Even further so I think the whole "private conversation thing" is a bit unnecessary.
If you ever-ever say something that, turned public could backfire at you, you don't go around complaining and people posting stuff - you just DON'T TALK SHIT instead. You are the one to blame no matter how things go. And having a bad day is nowhere near a decent excuse.
The harassments will stop eventually and I just hope no one goes out of their way and does more then foul-mouth him back.
Changing a few e-mails would be a good idea for him.
anyway, that's a very peculiar case. Who would've thought 20 years ago...
Bingo.
“Our character is what we do when we think no one is looking.” - H. Jackson Brown Jr.
I understand how the customer was right and how he was treated very unfairly. He was, as you say, polite at the beginning and I would have been pretty pissed at that point too. He brought up some good points in his complaint. However, this is just unnecessary;
"You look really douchy be having one youtube video complaining about the noise of traffic next to your home and then another video showing off your obnoxiously loud rice rocket (which is nice, I gotta hand it ya)." and "Welcome to the internet, bitch. Thats how I roll.".
The dudes comment about AAA titles is ridiculous too.
Yes no one complains when blizzard pushes back a release date... but that is what we expect. There's a knowledge at preorder time that pretty much everything they make besides WoW expansions will be delayed. However this company set a ship date and failed to make it and never made an announcement... the company now owes the customer for breaking a promise not saying a word about it during holiday season (the worst time of the year to miss a ship date.)
True, the internet justice is the last outpost of any kind of justice. I just think that he had several chances to fix this both with Mike and then with the internet itself.
Instead of first trying to sue penny arcade and then pleading in a way just to save his own face and still be able to look cool in the end of the day he should've come clean in a none douchy way,
Yet in every following mail to Mike he failed at doing so, just further showing how this wasn't just a bad day but the core of his person, and then his interviews yet furthers the issue.
Shows pretty well that he's not getting it, he truly is sorry that he got caught.
Mike doesn't have the power, he has.
Yep, that's the sad part of it, internet and non internet. Even the bad guys of the world will have innocent families, that have been treated just as the bad guy has.
Wasn't it also a full payment up front with a shipment before christmas guarantee?
Go check the diablo 3 official forums. There are plenty of people complaining they preordered and dont even get a release date. They "gave their money to blizzard, and deserve a release date". Which I think is BS, seeing as it was their choice to pre-order flat out knowing there was no release date.
Apparently Paul is a 1 man PR firm. So an email to his employer would do no good. He is his own boss. And in that interview with him, linked on the first page of this thread, he said he hasnt lost any business over this yet. Clients have asked him about it, but they dont seem to care, and most of them just laugh it off. Which could be completely false as well, but who knows.
I think the customer was wrong as well for sending the lengthy lengthy bitch fest email. He could have been more professional and calm about it. Yes, Paul initiated with the whole "grow up and wait for your stuff like everyone else" comment, but lets be honest here.... Paul is just an idiot that should never have gotten into PR.
haha this guy is completely bonkers. literally every apology/compliment is followed with an insult.
"I still love the gaming community....... but I don't know what kind of lives these people have."
"Not that I don't have respect for anybody..... but if someone's being a little punk they don't deserve respect"
It reminds me of south park when Cartman's memory is completely skewed from reality
Yer, because he's not going to say "oh I'm ruined because of this" is he? He can't even manage an apology properly without insulting more people, I wouldn't trust him to tell the truth on anything (especially with his previous form).
I know the Penny Arcade guys have gone through a lot of adversity in their past but this whole attention seeking, chip on the shoulder attitude gets tired.
The fact that he banned them from PAX is a good, strong and effective statement about maintaining good customer relations, but when he made it about himself all of a sudden was just not necessary.
I totally understand the passion and emotion on the side of Mike when it comes to something like this, but what Penny Arcade accomplished in the nerd/geek culture is a larger testament. It needn't more.
I would agree that everyone acted a 'little childish', though some alot more then others. I think the point being made is the childish behavior started with the customer service rep. As someone who has done customer service and IT, rule #1 is like don't EVER do or say anything that would be seen as antagonistic to the customer. Because they will escalate that shit quicker then you can blink. Why wouldn't they? They're not the one being paid to be professional.
I think Penny Arcade might even have jumped on the wagon a little too hard as well. It's like he was watching the fight from the outside looking in, and was just itching for the first opportunity to jump in and make it personal. I don't have any problem with any of the actions they took, but more of the words they expressed. But hey go to their site, they have a blog post about semen week, so whatcha gonna do. And this is coming from someone who loves Penny Arcade.
Customer's side? You know 90% of the customers are selfish jerks.
Customer service side? That is useless because no matter what, eventually customer service rep takes the blame and walks with many insults. (regardless of what he has done) It is his job to take shit from the customers and utter nothing but a thank you or an apology. And on top of it, do whatever he can to keep customer happy. Keeping a customer happy will keep the CEO's of the company he represents, happy. So, practically, if he loses his cool with any customer, it will cost him his job.
So, whoz side you are exactly on. =\
To me this is refreshing, personal information is so easily accessible these days that you can't just hide behind your computer and be a total cunt. Does this disturb me? Not in the slightest, don't be a total fuckwit, and for christ sake do not be a total fuckwit with your real name while representing multiple companies. If you want to be a fuckwit go to 4chan and do it anonymously.
The guy has absolutely noone to blame but himself in this instance. He isn't some innocent victim here, he should know full well how easy it is to track people down as he says: Just because you're hiding behind your computer screen being a jackass and you won't be punched directly in the face doesn't mean you're free from the repercussions of your own idiotic actions. This is a good lesson for humanity.
A sad day when people sit around feeling sorry for internet toughguys who finally get what was long coming to them.
It's just a case of a dude being a douche. Nothing new. The only reason we're talking about it is because Penny Arcade got involved. Maybe a little too much.
Who is the bigger cunt here - the PR douche or the guy that decided to launch an online lynching campaign against an individual for being an unfriendly ass (knowing perfectly well how ugly things can get on the net)? Also: the fact that its easy to track down a person does not matter until somebody puts a bull's eye on that person's forehead.
Aren't the guys phoning him at home and threatening him more of the same 'internet toughguys'.I don't disagree that the guy needed a smack but no one deserves internet mob justice.
It's a shame about the internet mob attack but he should of known the risks that come with the job.
psychotic opportunists, there's really no point to it, especially when the best weapons against him has been his own words, tweets and facts.
It's pretty much the same as the people who will smash things and steal stuff during much needed protests.
Exactly, the term "the customer is always right" isn't meant to be by the word, it's a saying incorporating the means to properly handle a customer and how to end up with a pleased one, and therefor a properly positive PR image for your company or the one you are representing.
...I think we might not be seeing eye to eye on the meaning of the word "right". If by "the customer is always right" you mean "the customer deserves your patience and best efforts", then you and I are in agreement.
But then it seems to me you might as well just say it. It's not like it takes a lot more effort to say so.
Again, I point out. How HYPOCRITICAL using that logic is.
Mike had no way of knowing how far some would take it. While at the same time, how the MAJORITY have simple just read it and moved on. All he did was spread information. He cannot be held responsible in any degree for those that misuse it.
Its like releasing a violent game and someone misuses it for real life violence. Now, is the company that released the violent game at fault? Or the person who thinks said game gives them the ok to go out and hurt others?
If you say the game company, then WTF are you doing in game development?
Ridiculous. Mike has done this before, multiple times!
Anyone 'in' the online community knows how far people take these things. Completely absurd to say otherwise.
Certainly, but just because one asshole meets another even bigger asshole, doesn't mean I'm going to start feeling bad for the "lesser" asshole.
Exactly right...
your customer is right even when he is wrong is part of what makes the job "work".
And a skill. Anyone working with the public has to find the positive solution under the same circumstances.
However, in this economy...
There seems to be more people in customer services that would have never have taken such jobs than ever before. And they obviously do not feel obligated to be positive in a job that is beneath them. There are a lot of unhappy people out there.
Sometimes in the US I feel it's as if we will never be able to return to anything resembling service or polite professionalism. The idea that some here really believe that everyone is a bully to some one and that everyone is that asshole on a bad day is very depressing. That there is a large jaded sarcastic group that truley believes as much is obvious. ( jes turn on the internet ). But there is a huge group of delicate panseys out there that would prefer a positive and polite society. The older you get it seems that most people feel that way... It might not seem that way because bullying is louder.
I wish I could say that I achieved as much myself but I am still learning to control my temper and my ego. I would like to think I am winning. But I know enough not to take that customer related job anymore. ( customer related jobs are not beneath me... I am not good enough for them )
One good case in point is the local McDonalds drive through ( not the same corporate comparison but just as valid an example )
In parts of the country they have pre-recorded opening recordings specifically to accomplish all the customer related tasks that can not be accomplished by employable humans ( not only promoting specials in a professional and polite manner that would make a positive sale but it becomes obvious when the human finishes the order how superior the recording is! )
Sad thing is, everytime I point this out before approaching the drive through...
Everyobe "gets it'! And just how bad things have gotten. Wasn't so bad in traditionally hard working blue collar cities and perhaps some polite red states where the population would make abusive service immpossible, but everyday there seems to be more assholes, slackers and deadbeats.
Mike also knows that the majority did not by that same token. You are focusing on the minority who took it into their own hands to escalate things and attempt to blame Mike.
Like I said, then your a hypocrite if you work in our industry. By your logic. Someone somewhere will misconstrue a violent game. As such the publisher/developer is responsible for what happens. If you say this is true, then your being consistent. But I question why you would want to work in our industry then?
I think you're proposing a bit of a false dichotomy with the hypocrisy thing. It's possible to think mike's behavior was wrong because of his intent, or of his power, or of his results, without necessarily vilifying everyone who's ever done something similar.
Mike knowingly made a post that would incite harassment. And then made a comment and two news posts about how proud he was of it.
He's definitely not ignorant to that minority. It doesnt matter that the majority didnt, it matters that the minority DID, and that mike knew it was going to happen and publicly relishes in it.
I feel no sympathy for this asshole, i just also feel disgust with mike.
"Now, is the company...at fault?" - Ladies and gentlemen: we have a winner!
If we stick to your example, the question would be wether the murderous lunatic or John Carmack were at fault. That puts a slightly different perspective on things, doesnt it?
In other words: even if its a one-man show I dont see why he had to post personal details - just giving out the company's name/homepage would have been sufficient to take care of the professional/business/whateveryouwannacallit aspect of this. The fact that he went farther than that should tell you that this was not just about "getting the word out" on a shitty company.
As for hipocrisy: in the context of the situation, you dont post somebody's personal info on the net, in a little niche dedicated to videogames, and assume that it will be handled responsibly by any and all users...
So, its not your fault if the thief is BnEing at neighbor's house and you call the police.
Well, technically its Neighbor's fault for not setting up the alarm system for his house and your fault, because you are stalking the neighbor. o.O How else would you know the thief is in his house.
It's also a bit of a bummer that the company responsible for the neat peripheral are having to do some major firefighting. Hopefully they make it through this. Lessons learned.
I was being bullied as a kid, but I have enough self-respect and respect for others to just be the bigger man and turn away from crap like this. Sure the PR-man was an asshole, but by doing as Mike did, he turned himself into an even bigger one.
I'm disgusted by the PA actions and I feel sorry for the harassment the PR-guy's family has had as a result of the internet mob mentallity.
Thought much more of them than I do now, anyways.
JUST... WOW?!?! Seriously... This guy is for real!
Yeah okay, any sympathy I had in my earlier post is now gone.
Where does avenger find these guys.
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/nw1vm/ama_the_guy_who_replaced_paul_christoforo_and_is/
Gooooooood... so fucking what?? There's million of con-man douches in the world. Korinkidink or whatever his name is has done far more damage to his own companies name than the damage he has supposedly 'prevented' befalling companies.
He sounds like a man who knows how to conduct his business, even to the point of going online and saying things that should normally not be said. But in the context of this case it's a brilliant move on his part to bring the dirty laundry out in the open along with all the rest. As long as he doesn't overdo it he'll come out smelling like roses with a secure job, and PR Asshat will eat shit in court.
I'm pretty sure he's just pissing off people who didn't like Penny Arcade to begin with.
People laugh off the angry mobs from the old days as if it's some mentality that we've grown out of. The sad thing is that these mobs are just as bad as before and now they have better technology to perform their idiocy. I fully agree with your last post, Zpanzer. It's a shame that you changed your opinion so quickly. It shouldn't matter if the victim of these mobs are mean PR assholes or cocky 12 year old girls. I don't think any of them deserve it, guilty or not.
With all of that being said I'm not really sure how this thread helps us any further? It's not exactly relevant to game art and it's just bringing out hate.
[quote=Mois
And dick moves and business are not mutually exclusive. Christoforo just didn't know when to be a dick and to whom.