Even then though, I'm pretty sure if you asked any college student from China about Tiananmen square they wouldn't know what you were talking about.
flip side (playing the save my ass card here) Ask any HS grad here in the states about the Moro Crater Massacre or even something larger like the Mexican-American war and they'll have no clue either....
It's one thing to be blinded by propoganda. (I was actually in Beijing in the fall, and most people are VERY well aware of the Tienanmen square massacre).
But China has engineers, doctors, artists, programmers, and the worlds largest labor force etc.
North Korea has umm.. well, people who I guess have maybe picked up rocks for 40 years? Farmers who have used the tools and technologies from 50+ years ago. A few of the more privileged ones might have used the newest piece of technology: The typewriter!
But China has engineers, doctors, artists, programmers, and the worlds largest labor force etc.
I see your point in this. A country's scientific ability really comes down to quality of education. And not just scientific fields but the arts and such. Even non-western art takes years to study to emulate correctly as does any art form for that manner. A step further China's methods either Chinese or Western are showing obvious cultural results.
I do think there is something to be said though for the general public mindset that many cultures have forced upon them, whether intrinsically or subconsciously.
In the US we get a large amount of our world views from K-12, our families, and as we get older, from popular news outlets, leaving a huge piece of the pie missing from actual world history and events.
I think there is a large group of the population without any secondary education with which those three things become the basis of their entire socio-outlook on life. I can only assume the same is true everywhere else, some worse than others.
I actually dont think there will any cataclysmic war.. or serious threat to the region. I think the son will slowly open up the country to trade and investment much like China/Vietnam did and Myanmar are doing now.
No hope for relaxed controls and human rights mind you, they will pretty much do enough to lift sanctions (also like myanmar). I believe the regime there will be under heavy influence from the chinese to reform and open up as they did. I also believe that internally they want to do just that, the son will leave it a while, but it will happen.
Much of their military is a result of isolation and a propaganda tool and their nuclear capability is a deterrent nothing more.
Quoted for agreement. Kim Jon Un isn't going to institute any major changes because the party leadership would rebel against him if he did. However, he was raised internationally and attended western schools - he knows what is out there in the world, and probably wants to modernize his country.
I think North Korea can safely come about as close to "free" as Burma/Myanmar has - which, while not great, at least Burma isn't completely closed off to the world, has internet access, widespread cell phone usage, and a somewhat capitalist market economy.
You must also understand that North Koreans worship their leaders like many Americans worship Jesus Christ. They are used to their lives as it is. Instant western styled freedom would scare them and invite chaos. Expect North Korea to open up in stages.
China and Vietnam had educated people, with a functioning government, and self sufficient workforce.
North Korea are a population of 24 million who are completely uneducated, and brainwashed with propoganda. It's a prison state that's a black-hole of burden on anyone who wants to help them.
And their finger is on the nuke.
actually I dont believe they are as uneducated as you think, just as Pyongyang has its own internal propaganda machine the rest of the worlds view is also prejudiced.
How are they able to develop a nuclear enrichment program ( never mind making a working bomb) and also develop a platform for deploying the nuke?
actually I dont believe they are as uneducated as you think, just as Pyongyang has its own internal propaganda machine the rest of the worlds view is also prejudiced.
How are they able to develop a nuclear enrichment program ( never mind making a working bomb) and also develop a platform for deploying the nuke?
you cant do that with typewriters..
Actually we, the russians, supplied them with most of the nuclear programme during the cold war. They have ancient warheads and only very primitive deployment solutions. But it only needs to fly as far as Seoul.
It took superpowers like USSR and USA years to develop enchrichment technology and long range deployment solutions, practically the length of the cold war and limitless resources.
Countries like Iran are only in their mid steps to having a nuclear armamament and it already took them forever. North Korea had a lot of communist assistance during and post Korean war.
On the eve of the late Kim Jong il's birthday theyve announced controlled nuclear fusion. This is how isolated, uneducated and censored they keep their people. Nothing will change, refugees who were close to Kim claim that up to 20% of national budget goes to his pampering in a country with a GDP of less than $2000. None of the aid we send ever gets to people who are starving and suffering from diseases due to malnutrition. He and his sons enjoy exotic foreign food, German luxury cars, finest French cognacs and numerous villas. Their people are kept in unquestionable worship. Why would anything change? The Kim's live like kings.
It's a wonder they made a nuke at all. Pretty much everything is fucked up. Rotting buildings, 16 story houses with no elevators or heating, compressed dirt roads outside the capital, even a simple polaroid camera is a luxury, highways that are shittier than country roads, coal powered trucks, people who have no clue at all how it looks outside their country.
Education is however very good if you're privileged. No wonder, pretty much everyone is unemployed because businesses have no resources or are embargoed. Leaves a lot of skilled people available to teaching. I met people speaking perfect English and German. Much much better than in China or even many western countries. Other leisure activities? None except mass exercise, forced labour (cleaning sidewalks, monuments) or studying and hoping to get ahead in the mess of a society.
All they hear in the media are 2 things: 1) the war, 2) kim il sung. There's no other topics. The elevator music you hear is actually praise for the dear leaders. Comics are about the war. TV shows are about the war. Books are about the party or the war. Even the Karaoke comes with patriotic songs and images of soldiers!
I visited NK last year and you have to feel sad for all (most) of the people there. The people I met were extremely friendly, open and extremely interested in the outside world. Yet they may never see it, not even on TV or in newspapers. The worst is that through decades of indoctrination they actually still believe their life is as good as it could possibly be.
Or maybe the know that if they don't appear grateful their regime will take away whatever little else they have left.
that's disgusting. truly criminal. it's like a cult on a grand scale. it's a shame they don't have any oil or diamonds, we could rustle up a democracy invasion and save them.
Unfortunately that's what it would take. Complete annihilation followed by rebuilding. It would not be the most popular approach and would come at a cost of a lot of lives, but the extreme totalitarian regime present in NK won't be solved by diplomacy or internal political opposition.
The people I met were extremely friendly, open and extremely interested in the outside world. Yet they may never see it, not even on TV or in newspapers. The worst is that through decades of indoctrination they actually still believe their life is as good as it could possibly be.
Well if they are happy and enjoying life, what's the problem.
Unfortunately that's what it would take. Complete annihilation followed by rebuilding. It would not be the most popular approach and would come at a cost of a lot of lives, but the extreme totalitarian regime present in NK won't be solved by diplomacy or internal political opposition.
agreed, this isnt possible over the time span of one generation, but it is possible over a few generations.
Complete annihilation followed by rebuilding. It would not be the most popular approach and would come at a cost of a lot of lives, but the extreme totalitarian regime present in NK won't be solved by diplomacy or internal political opposition.
Well if they are happy and enjoying life, what's the problem.
among numerous reasons the one that sticks out is that are genetically degrading due to generations of malnutrition. They are inches shorter than their SK cousins. Young kids have cataracts, which they don't have technology to repair. It's a very easily repairable defect and should only strike elderly people. In NK it's the norm.
The problem is that they took their dictatorship to a level that puts the soviets and the Chinese to shame. Suddenly the Mao cultural revolution seems tame. With no outside communication there isn't even enough fertilizer for a legitimate opposition to grow. I fear it's quite hopeless to expect things to turn around in time.
Well if they are happy and enjoying life, what's the problem.
They're happy (*) because they're lied to. They do not know that the grass is indeed greener on the other side. They live in a state of "ignorance is bliss" where the ignorance is imposed on them by a government they didn't vote for.
Some of the guides I spoke to knew that there's stuff in China they don't have, but they still have no clue how far they're lagging behind. They just cannot imagine it because they've never truly seen or experienced anything else than North Korea.
(*) if they're truly happy I don't know, or if it's just facade, either because of their culture or because appearing to be happy is required to survive. But the people we met showed a huge amount of dignity bearing the situation, in a country where even a owning a bicycle or eating some chocolate is a luxury for most.
But when I came back from NK I was grateful for everything I have - for the standard of living, for the freedom and most for the possibility to change my own situation by myself. This is something most north korean's don't have. The state dictates their life - it tells you what you can study, where you have to live, where you have to work. A north korean cannot choose any of this. They cannot even travel inside their own country without permit.
The problem is that they took their dictatorship to a level that puts the soviets and the Chinese to shame. Suddenly the Mao cultural revolution seems tame.
Guess it's not very surprising to hear that Romania's Nicolae Ceausescu, who was one of Europe's worst post WW2 dictators, was a big admirer of Kim Il Sung.
But it's also interesting to know that at some time NK had a better economy than South Korea (around the 60's) and South Koreans were immigrating to the north.
Indeed, a similar thing happened in the Soviet union. Due to, at the time, friendly political atmosphere between the countries soviet korean's with backgrounds from the North would elect to travel back "home" to help rebuild the country after the Korean war. At the time, North Korea was in a dire need of young educated professionals. Engineers, teachers.. people to help build the infrastructure of the country.
Those who saw problems ahead of time and decided to stay away were lucky. Some of those who felt patriotic to the homeland and moved to the North, were able to come back, but some didn't and didn't fare so well.
You have to understand, by the time of the political warming between the Soviet's and the US, the NK still maintained a very strict totalitarian socialist philosophy. Something to the extent of Albania and Romania. Despite the cold war, western pop culture, sentiments and entertainment still seeped through into Russia. Not so much in North Korea, they worked hard to maintain isolation. After the thawing of the cold war relations they persecuted those Koreans from the USSR for softening in their communist ideals. For all intents and purposes it appeared that Soviet Korean communists had no place among North Korean communists.
A funny anecdote, a relative on my mother's side (she is siberian thus having mongolian/native russian roots) at some point travelled to North Korea for vacation. At that time it was perfectly normal to be able to travel to communist countries within the alliance. During his travels he was noticed by the local political police. They made a mistake for assuming him as their own and were questioning him why he wasn't wearing the "Eternal President"'s pin on his jacket. He was taken by surprise and since he only spoke Russian, he just started saying "Lenin, Lenin". They immediately realized that they made a terrible mistake, apologized and scurried away. It was then that he is realized that the socialism that North Korea was building at the time there was way beyond the norm by any standards.
Albania and Romania eventually recovered from their maniacal dictators, North Korea still hasn't.
China and Russia are surely not to be completely without blame in this situation due to their major influence in the post war era and more recently, albeit at a more diminished level. But even they balk at what is happening in North Korea right now. If there is any "peaceful" solution to be made it would have to be through China.
"While it has not been possible to verify the public trial claim, earlier the authorities did order the military to shoot anyone who attempted to defect during the mourning period and eliminate their family, so it would not be surprising. The source agreed with earlier testimony stating that while it is usually possible to escape punishment during such crackdowns with bribes, it is much more difficult to do so now."
Replies
It's one thing to be blinded by propoganda. (I was actually in Beijing in the fall, and most people are VERY well aware of the Tienanmen square massacre).
But China has engineers, doctors, artists, programmers, and the worlds largest labor force etc.
North Korea has umm.. well, people who I guess have maybe picked up rocks for 40 years? Farmers who have used the tools and technologies from 50+ years ago. A few of the more privileged ones might have used the newest piece of technology: The typewriter!
I see your point in this. A country's scientific ability really comes down to quality of education. And not just scientific fields but the arts and such. Even non-western art takes years to study to emulate correctly as does any art form for that manner. A step further China's methods either Chinese or Western are showing obvious cultural results.
I do think there is something to be said though for the general public mindset that many cultures have forced upon them, whether intrinsically or subconsciously.
In the US we get a large amount of our world views from K-12, our families, and as we get older, from popular news outlets, leaving a huge piece of the pie missing from actual world history and events.
I think there is a large group of the population without any secondary education with which those three things become the basis of their entire socio-outlook on life. I can only assume the same is true everywhere else, some worse than others.
Quoted for agreement. Kim Jon Un isn't going to institute any major changes because the party leadership would rebel against him if he did. However, he was raised internationally and attended western schools - he knows what is out there in the world, and probably wants to modernize his country.
I think North Korea can safely come about as close to "free" as Burma/Myanmar has - which, while not great, at least Burma isn't completely closed off to the world, has internet access, widespread cell phone usage, and a somewhat capitalist market economy.
You must also understand that North Koreans worship their leaders like many Americans worship Jesus Christ. They are used to their lives as it is. Instant western styled freedom would scare them and invite chaos. Expect North Korea to open up in stages.
In my opinion.
actually I dont believe they are as uneducated as you think, just as Pyongyang has its own internal propaganda machine the rest of the worlds view is also prejudiced.
How are they able to develop a nuclear enrichment program ( never mind making a working bomb) and also develop a platform for deploying the nuke?
you cant do that with typewriters..
Actually we, the russians, supplied them with most of the nuclear programme during the cold war. They have ancient warheads and only very primitive deployment solutions. But it only needs to fly as far as Seoul.
It took superpowers like USSR and USA years to develop enchrichment technology and long range deployment solutions, practically the length of the cold war and limitless resources.
Countries like Iran are only in their mid steps to having a nuclear armamament and it already took them forever. North Korea had a lot of communist assistance during and post Korean war.
On the eve of the late Kim Jong il's birthday theyve announced controlled nuclear fusion. This is how isolated, uneducated and censored they keep their people. Nothing will change, refugees who were close to Kim claim that up to 20% of national budget goes to his pampering in a country with a GDP of less than $2000. None of the aid we send ever gets to people who are starving and suffering from diseases due to malnutrition. He and his sons enjoy exotic foreign food, German luxury cars, finest French cognacs and numerous villas. Their people are kept in unquestionable worship. Why would anything change? The Kim's live like kings.
Education is however very good if you're privileged. No wonder, pretty much everyone is unemployed because businesses have no resources or are embargoed. Leaves a lot of skilled people available to teaching. I met people speaking perfect English and German. Much much better than in China or even many western countries. Other leisure activities? None except mass exercise, forced labour (cleaning sidewalks, monuments) or studying and hoping to get ahead in the mess of a society.
All they hear in the media are 2 things: 1) the war, 2) kim il sung. There's no other topics. The elevator music you hear is actually praise for the dear leaders. Comics are about the war. TV shows are about the war. Books are about the party or the war. Even the Karaoke comes with patriotic songs and images of soldiers!
I visited NK last year and you have to feel sad for all (most) of the people there. The people I met were extremely friendly, open and extremely interested in the outside world. Yet they may never see it, not even on TV or in newspapers. The worst is that through decades of indoctrination they actually still believe their life is as good as it could possibly be.
Or maybe the know that if they don't appear grateful their regime will take away whatever little else they have left.
(I get the joke though
Well if they are happy and enjoying life, what's the problem.
agreed, this isnt possible over the time span of one generation, but it is possible over a few generations.
lol wut
among numerous reasons the one that sticks out is that are genetically degrading due to generations of malnutrition. They are inches shorter than their SK cousins. Young kids have cataracts, which they don't have technology to repair. It's a very easily repairable defect and should only strike elderly people. In NK it's the norm.
The problem is that they took their dictatorship to a level that puts the soviets and the Chinese to shame. Suddenly the Mao cultural revolution seems tame. With no outside communication there isn't even enough fertilizer for a legitimate opposition to grow. I fear it's quite hopeless to expect things to turn around in time.
They're happy (*) because they're lied to. They do not know that the grass is indeed greener on the other side. They live in a state of "ignorance is bliss" where the ignorance is imposed on them by a government they didn't vote for.
Some of the guides I spoke to knew that there's stuff in China they don't have, but they still have no clue how far they're lagging behind. They just cannot imagine it because they've never truly seen or experienced anything else than North Korea.
(*) if they're truly happy I don't know, or if it's just facade, either because of their culture or because appearing to be happy is required to survive. But the people we met showed a huge amount of dignity bearing the situation, in a country where even a owning a bicycle or eating some chocolate is a luxury for most.
But when I came back from NK I was grateful for everything I have - for the standard of living, for the freedom and most for the possibility to change my own situation by myself. This is something most north korean's don't have. The state dictates their life - it tells you what you can study, where you have to live, where you have to work. A north korean cannot choose any of this. They cannot even travel inside their own country without permit.
Guess it's not very surprising to hear that Romania's Nicolae Ceausescu, who was one of Europe's worst post WW2 dictators, was a big admirer of Kim Il Sung.
But it's also interesting to know that at some time NK had a better economy than South Korea (around the 60's) and South Koreans were immigrating to the north.
Those who saw problems ahead of time and decided to stay away were lucky. Some of those who felt patriotic to the homeland and moved to the North, were able to come back, but some didn't and didn't fare so well.
You have to understand, by the time of the political warming between the Soviet's and the US, the NK still maintained a very strict totalitarian socialist philosophy. Something to the extent of Albania and Romania. Despite the cold war, western pop culture, sentiments and entertainment still seeped through into Russia. Not so much in North Korea, they worked hard to maintain isolation. After the thawing of the cold war relations they persecuted those Koreans from the USSR for softening in their communist ideals. For all intents and purposes it appeared that Soviet Korean communists had no place among North Korean communists.
A funny anecdote, a relative on my mother's side (she is siberian thus having mongolian/native russian roots) at some point travelled to North Korea for vacation. At that time it was perfectly normal to be able to travel to communist countries within the alliance. During his travels he was noticed by the local political police. They made a mistake for assuming him as their own and were questioning him why he wasn't wearing the "Eternal President"'s pin on his jacket. He was taken by surprise and since he only spoke Russian, he just started saying "Lenin, Lenin". They immediately realized that they made a terrible mistake, apologized and scurried away. It was then that he is realized that the socialism that North Korea was building at the time there was way beyond the norm by any standards.
Albania and Romania eventually recovered from their maniacal dictators, North Korea still hasn't.
China and Russia are surely not to be completely without blame in this situation due to their major influence in the post war era and more recently, albeit at a more diminished level. But even they balk at what is happening in North Korea right now. If there is any "peaceful" solution to be made it would have to be through China.
Apologies for the rambling.
"While it has not been possible to verify the public trial claim, earlier the authorities did order the military to shoot anyone who attempted to defect during the mourning period and eliminate their family, so it would not be surprising. The source agreed with earlier testimony stating that while it is usually possible to escape punishment during such crackdowns with bribes, it is much more difficult to do so now."