i dont have an issue so much with the education as much as price to education justification. Like others said i between me and my wife we could own a house instead of 2 loans
What I'd like to see a crackdown of, and places like AI are horrible with this, is the whole National vs Regional accreditation bullshit.
Lots (maybe even most?) of the AIs out there are have national accreditation, which taken at face value you would think it's as good or better than regional accreditation. But in fact, it's not. National accreditation is about as valid as the BigJohn Accreditation System.
Lots and lots of students graduate from AI with a nationally-accredited "degree", only to find out that it's basically meaningless in the sense that if you ever wanted to go to a real university for a masters, you can't. Gotta get another bachelor's.
It's so messed up that an AI that's regionally accredited won't accept credits from an AI that's nationally accredited. I went through this myself, it's horrible.
I don't agree with the line of thinking that you should get a degree because employers look for that. That's a bad standard to set. If it's the minimum to have a bachelor's to get into entry level employment, then it's not really a worthwhile degree. Entry-level used to mean novice workers. Now it means expensively trained people that haven't been employed in the field that long. There's no such thing as apprenticeships anymore. People have to be the best of the best to even get a foot in the door. It used to be that if you wanted to learn a trade, you worked for a tradesman who taught you the trade while passing off the tedious part of the job to you. A win-win deal there. You get a job and training. They get an extra hand for cheap that becomes more skilled over time. Interns are not apprentices. They've already invested in expensive training for the job, they're just getting the other half of it that you don't get in college, on the job experience.
We're lowering our standards for education by teaching young people that you can't get a job unless you put yourself into massive debt first. All that does is put people into indentured servitude for the rest of their lives. They'll be tied to their job and unable to negotiate a better deal for themselves because they're chained to a mountain of debt that is nearly impossible to get away from. If everybody has a degree, it's not worth much more than a high school diploma, which is more and more being devalued itself. A diploma is just a stepping stone to get into college where you are told that you get the real education that will launch your career for the rest of your life. And you'll be rich too! No, not anymore. College isn't what it used to be. Better to learn independently through the internet resources available or learn from a master of the trade.
You're right it is a bad standard to set, but sadly, it has already been set for several years. The only way to get your foot in the door is to learn they techniques and tools to build a good portfolio. Unless you pirate everything, software, equipment, and tutorial DVDs are expensive too (especially without education discounts). I may have gone in debt for school and I may have a lot of complaints about the school itself and some of my instructors, but I don't feel like it was a waste or like I got cheated. Of course, I went to a state school, which was significantly cheaper than many of the private art schools.
Many of my instructors were teaching outdated information and some were completely incompetent. I had to do a lot of self teaching, but at any school you will only get out what you put into it. For my money, I got access to high-end computers, tons of software, a library of DVDs, lots of friends to help me improve, and deadlines that gave me the motivation to keep working. Many people have left the school and gone on to work at McDonalds, but others have gone on to work at ILM, Dreamworks, Blizzard, Firaxis, Sledgehammer, Gearbox, etc. Those alumni provide the students with industry connections that you can't get so easily by learning from home. So I definitely feel that it was worth it. My Master's, on the other hand, was a waste of time since I spent most of that two years writing papers and, now, nearly all of the work in my portfolio shows where I was at 2 years ago. Thankfully, I basically got paid to get that degree.
I agree that in a perfect world college really wouldnt be necessary, and only skill would be a factor. The requisite of diplomas can be a little counterproductive. Sadly this is not the world we live in, and similar to other industries diplomas are now becoming pretty standard.
I keep hearing those who have attended Art Institutes say that "you get what you put into it." Many of them also point out that this is true for any scholastic endeavor.
But if all things really are equal in that regard, why would anyone consider attending an Art Instituted that charges 100k+ for a dubious degree when they could go to a traditional state school with a solid arts program? They could just as easily work hard and put lots of personal effort into one of those schools. They could just as easily meet lots of friends and have a positive college experience. And for a fraction of the monetary cost.
And I think it worth pointing out that modern Art Institutes are at a major disadvantage in the curriculum they offer. At an AI, its games and art, and pretty much nothing else. At a traditional liberal arts program from a state university, (or even a community college) you will be exposed to many more influences. There are theater programs, science, math, business, and students and professors who are more than happy to speak to you about all of them.
I just think that getting an education from just about anywhere other than AI would make for a more well-rounded student with much greater opportunities for a broader and more robust learning experience. The only real advantage of AI is the tighter curriculum focus, and we've seen just how worthwhile that is. (not very)
I keep hearing those who have attended Art Institutes say that "you get what you put into it." Many of them also point out that this is true for any scholastic endeavor.
But if all things really are equal in that regard, why would anyone consider attending an Art Instituted that charges 100k+ for a dubious degree when they could go to a traditional state school with a solid arts program? They could just as easily work hard and put lots of personal effort into one of those schools. They could just as easily meet lots of friends and have a positive college experience. And for a fraction of the monetary cost.
And I think it worth pointing out that modern Art Institutes are at a major disadvantage in the curriculum they offer. At an AI, its games and art, and pretty much nothing else. At a traditional liberal arts program from a state university, (or even a community college) you will be exposed to many more influences. There are theater programs, science, math, business, and students and professors who are more than happy to speak to you about all of them.
I just think that getting an education from just about anywhere other than AI would make for a more well-rounded student with much greater opportunities for a broader and more robust learning experience. The only real advantage of AI is the tighter curriculum focus, and we've seen just how worthwhile that is. (not very)
Richard hit the nail on the head. The best classes I ever had were not dealing directly in making art. A history professor with a passion for Roman art and architecture. Was such an inspiring person. Then there was the push to not only make art, but art with a personal meaning. I would have never been exposed to these ideas had I gotten one of those focused/closed "degrees" from a place like AI.
Currently finishing up the Art Institute of Dallas.
I am going to be $130,000 in debt.
I agree you get what you put in. Worth the money? No.
I don't know if this is how it works at other AIs but our director has a portfolio to get in to the Animation degree. If your drawing skills aren't good enough they put you in graphic design until you have strong enough 2d skills to come over.
And I think we have had quite a few amazing teachers.
Director has worked on a few films like Iron Giant.
2 other teachers who have worked in Disney. (Animators on the Genie and Scar)
Animation Lead from Finding Nemo.
Generalist from hell. Started in traditional and currently freelances everywhere.
We had Spark (Brett Briley). Lead character artist for id software. Took most of my advanced modeling classes from him.
And we have a character artist from Terminal Reality who was at Gearbox.
Every 3d instructor I have had have been the type of guys you get here on polycount who kick you while your down, tell you your art sucks, and tell you how to make it better. :P
We have come out very well rounded artists. That was the main benefit from going to school here. The quality of AI's differ and I like to think this is one of the best ones. >.> But as stated before, you get what you put in.
This isn't really helping anyone that's already in, but you never know, it might help someone who's considering their education.
$130,000 is an immense amount of money - I've been trying recently to dissuade my girlfriend from starting a university course (tourism industry) over here where the fees alone will be £36,000 (just under $56,000).
If it can get you into a better job, then by all means I'm for it, although I'd anticipate that even if she finishes hers, it won't be massively different to the kind of works he does now.
The way I've been trying to get her to look at it, is that she's currently earning £6.08 per hour, if she quits, does her degree (four years fees, plus four years of rent+bills etc - £50,000+), then finds work which pays her at £7.50 per hour (above average for someone who works in tourism).
She would have to work for at least twenty-four full-time years before she theoretically will see the benefit and earn back her debts and losses - except that she won't because she'd still be paying the interest on the loans. She'd be 22 when she starts, so she'd be nearly fifty and reaching the age of retirement before she could ever see the benefit of her education.
If you are intent on going to an AI, be sure to attend one that is in an area with a strong game development presence. The most likely candidates would be Dallas, California, and Seattle. AIs in those areas are much more likely to have strong game industry connections for placement, and are more likely to be staffed by industry professionals. It's not uncommon for professional game artists to work part-time teaching between gigs. With the current state of the industry, its more common than ever for professionals to be looking to pick up extra work.
If you go to an AI anywhere else, your chances for getting high-quality game industry teaching or placement drop of precipitously. Location is an important consideration.
Replies
Lots (maybe even most?) of the AIs out there are have national accreditation, which taken at face value you would think it's as good or better than regional accreditation. But in fact, it's not. National accreditation is about as valid as the BigJohn Accreditation System.
Lots and lots of students graduate from AI with a nationally-accredited "degree", only to find out that it's basically meaningless in the sense that if you ever wanted to go to a real university for a masters, you can't. Gotta get another bachelor's.
It's so messed up that an AI that's regionally accredited won't accept credits from an AI that's nationally accredited. I went through this myself, it's horrible.
So you get a bs degree and a bunch of debt.
You're right it is a bad standard to set, but sadly, it has already been set for several years. The only way to get your foot in the door is to learn they techniques and tools to build a good portfolio. Unless you pirate everything, software, equipment, and tutorial DVDs are expensive too (especially without education discounts). I may have gone in debt for school and I may have a lot of complaints about the school itself and some of my instructors, but I don't feel like it was a waste or like I got cheated. Of course, I went to a state school, which was significantly cheaper than many of the private art schools.
Many of my instructors were teaching outdated information and some were completely incompetent. I had to do a lot of self teaching, but at any school you will only get out what you put into it. For my money, I got access to high-end computers, tons of software, a library of DVDs, lots of friends to help me improve, and deadlines that gave me the motivation to keep working. Many people have left the school and gone on to work at McDonalds, but others have gone on to work at ILM, Dreamworks, Blizzard, Firaxis, Sledgehammer, Gearbox, etc. Those alumni provide the students with industry connections that you can't get so easily by learning from home. So I definitely feel that it was worth it. My Master's, on the other hand, was a waste of time since I spent most of that two years writing papers and, now, nearly all of the work in my portfolio shows where I was at 2 years ago. Thankfully, I basically got paid to get that degree.
That's why we have Polycount, the best damn game industry networking and education site on the net. Also the best place for high quality penis tanks.
But if all things really are equal in that regard, why would anyone consider attending an Art Instituted that charges 100k+ for a dubious degree when they could go to a traditional state school with a solid arts program? They could just as easily work hard and put lots of personal effort into one of those schools. They could just as easily meet lots of friends and have a positive college experience. And for a fraction of the monetary cost.
And I think it worth pointing out that modern Art Institutes are at a major disadvantage in the curriculum they offer. At an AI, its games and art, and pretty much nothing else. At a traditional liberal arts program from a state university, (or even a community college) you will be exposed to many more influences. There are theater programs, science, math, business, and students and professors who are more than happy to speak to you about all of them.
I just think that getting an education from just about anywhere other than AI would make for a more well-rounded student with much greater opportunities for a broader and more robust learning experience. The only real advantage of AI is the tighter curriculum focus, and we've seen just how worthwhile that is. (not very)
Richard hit the nail on the head. The best classes I ever had were not dealing directly in making art. A history professor with a passion for Roman art and architecture. Was such an inspiring person. Then there was the push to not only make art, but art with a personal meaning. I would have never been exposed to these ideas had I gotten one of those focused/closed "degrees" from a place like AI.
I am going to be $130,000 in debt.
I agree you get what you put in. Worth the money? No.
I don't know if this is how it works at other AIs but our director has a portfolio to get in to the Animation degree. If your drawing skills aren't good enough they put you in graphic design until you have strong enough 2d skills to come over.
And I think we have had quite a few amazing teachers.
Director has worked on a few films like Iron Giant.
2 other teachers who have worked in Disney. (Animators on the Genie and Scar)
Animation Lead from Finding Nemo.
Generalist from hell. Started in traditional and currently freelances everywhere.
We had Spark (Brett Briley). Lead character artist for id software. Took most of my advanced modeling classes from him.
And we have a character artist from Terminal Reality who was at Gearbox.
Every 3d instructor I have had have been the type of guys you get here on polycount who kick you while your down, tell you your art sucks, and tell you how to make it better. :P
We have come out very well rounded artists. That was the main benefit from going to school here. The quality of AI's differ and I like to think this is one of the best ones. >.> But as stated before, you get what you put in.
$130,000 is an immense amount of money - I've been trying recently to dissuade my girlfriend from starting a university course (tourism industry) over here where the fees alone will be £36,000 (just under $56,000).
If it can get you into a better job, then by all means I'm for it, although I'd anticipate that even if she finishes hers, it won't be massively different to the kind of works he does now.
The way I've been trying to get her to look at it, is that she's currently earning £6.08 per hour, if she quits, does her degree (four years fees, plus four years of rent+bills etc - £50,000+), then finds work which pays her at £7.50 per hour (above average for someone who works in tourism).
She would have to work for at least twenty-four full-time years before she theoretically will see the benefit and earn back her debts and losses - except that she won't because she'd still be paying the interest on the loans. She'd be 22 when she starts, so she'd be nearly fifty and reaching the age of retirement before she could ever see the benefit of her education.
ohey! You went to the Chicago AI? Did you go to the downtown campus or the one in Schaumburg? I was in Schaumburg 2002-2006
More and more though I feel like saying, I'm making games in spite of my college education. :poly141:
If you go to an AI anywhere else, your chances for getting high-quality game industry teaching or placement drop of precipitously. Location is an important consideration.