WIP - Cathedral Environment

cdevens

EDIT: Most recent shot will be put here, actual update on last page.















Hey Everyone,
I started some assets for a gothic cathedral environment. I am making things modular and I will update with the assets as I go along. I have a tileable floor texture that I did today and a 75% finished high poly column. I have to fix a couple bright spots on the spec map for the floor. I hope to add more assets soon and start assembling the scene. All crits are welcome.

Rurouni Strife

I like what you have so far. I'll be following and give you some crits the further along you get. Nice texture flats, I do think the secular outline for the floor is a bit too strong. It needs to say though, maybe tone it down 30%?

xXm0RpH3usXx

also, the chipped off spots wouldnt be as specular as the smooth surface.
u should even tone those spots down on your diffuse a bit to give it more depth

praetor187

This is looking really promising, I like what you doing with the pillar, I would suggest making two or three variants of the pillar, give greater variability to the scene as a whole. Cant wait to see the continued progress.

Alex3d

Ok, nice start on sculpts! Is there a concept or an idea you are working from? Post it!; if you don't have a concept, block it out and post it. Never start on assets without having a clear perspective...

cdevens

Thanks for all of the feedback. I hoped I would have had more of an update this morning, but spent most of the morning fighting memory crashes while trying to bake out the column. I ended up using xnormal instead of max, but I am not sure I am happy with the result. I may decimate the hipoly more in zbrush, then try again in max. I will add a diffuse and see if I like it or not. Pic below is just AO and Normal.



Rurouni: I am going to turn down the spec a little on the floor tiles, I will post an update as soon as I get a chance.

xXm0RpH3usXx: That is a good point, I will adjust the spec for the chipped off areas.

praetor187: I plan to do a couple different columns for this environment, I will probably do a clover shaped one next.

Alex3d: I don't have a single unified concept. I have a collection of images that I am pulling ideas from. As soon as I get a chance I will put them together into an image and post it up.

Thanks again for the feedback!

toxic_h2o

I really like the floor textures, the way the light hits the edge of the tiles is nice.

Also if you are having issues with the baking in xnormal, eat 3d has 2 really awesome free videos that might help you.

keep it up dude its looking good.

http://eat3d.com/free/xnormal_overview

http://eat3d.com/free/zbrush_xnormal

cdevens

Hey Toxic, Thanks for the links. I have seen those videos before, it isn't so much a problem using xnormal, it just isn't my preferred method. When it comes to troubleshooting, I find it more of a pain to have to re-export everything for different iterations. When I split edges on the low poly to affect the cage, or really do any tweaking to the cage, it is more of a pain to have to export that cage and import into xnormal. It is a great tool, and those are great vids from Eat3d, I just prefer to do things in max because I find it easier and more efficient to troubleshoot. I had one of the edges split in max (between the base and the first piece, and the same at the top) and it gave me an odd result in xnormal because I didn't export the cage to go with that setup. Thanks for the positive comments and taking the time to link the vids, much appreciated!

Tigerfeet

I love how the column looks except for the pedestal and crown details. The knotwork is really nice, but with as weathered as the rest of the column is the pristine-ness of those intricate designs feels very strange to me. Lines would fuzz, pieces would chip away, and especially on the bottom where people can rub against it I don't think the design should be so crisp.

cdevens

Tigerfeet,
I completely agree with your comments on the knotwork detail. I actually roughed them up a little between the hipoly render at the top and the one that I used for the bake. It was way too subtle and didn't come through in the normal map at all. I will fix that up before the next bake.

praetor187

This is coming along great. I cant wait to see some of the other assets, have you started a rough block out of the cathedral yet, or are you just making assets first?

Alex3d

I wonder if people who comment on posts ever read the comments and responses :P
Anyways, the column looks great. But at least do a simple blockout to keep track of proportions. Trust me you will regret not doing it...

cdevens

Thanks for the continued comments, I appreciate the help.

Praetor187: I am making a few assets to start the block out phase, I have not blocked it out yet.

Alex: I am building a few of the simple assets to start blocking out the whole thing. I am building on the grid for modularity (I plan on using UDK), so I am going to block out the major forms after I build the first couple assets. I have the column and I started an archway this morning. After I get these two done then I will use them and BSP to start blocking things out. I usually get a better feel for what I am building by having at least a couple assets instead of all BSP.

So here is my update for this morning. I work for a couple hours every morning before work, so I am limited to how much I get done unfortunately. I did some work on the texture for the column. I have to finish painting out a few areas where the spec is too strong. I started working on an archway asset, but it was really just the base mesh for zbrush so I didn't bother taking a screenshot.

The screenshot says 104 tris but I must have had something else selected. I did the math and it should only be 84 tris. I think I will add a noise layer to the Normal as well, it looks a little flat to me.


Here is the texture:

Shogun3d

Do you have a blockout of your cathedral?

cdevens

Alex3d: I guess you have your answer

kaburan: I will be posting a blockout soon after I finish the two assets I am working on.

Tigerfeet

Hey cdevens, softening the normal I think definitely helped, but I think it needs some big chips to really incorporate the knotwork into the rest of the pillar. I did a super fast smudge job on the bottom to illustrate what I'm talking about.



Also, I know my own art quality isn't terribly good at all, so if my advice feels way out of line feel free to ignore.

cdevens

Tigerfeet: I don't ignore anybody's feedback. I appreciate anyone that takes the time to try to make my stuff better. I did start sculpting a roughed up version of the base, but didn't get it in for this pass. I wanted to get a diffuse and spec on there before I did my final bake so I could troubleshoot anything else that needed to be changed. I will get a more roughed up version with some larger scars before I call this one done. I can rebake the AO and normal without having to change too much of the diffuse and spec. Thanks again for the comments.

Alex3d

Pro tip: When several parts of your asset are the exact(or almost) same thing, tile them on top of each other in the UV space... You will lessen the resource use by several times.

cdevens

Alex3d: With an asset like this that will be instanced many times in the environment, I didn't want the chips and diffuse information to be the same. I plan to rotate the pillars so when you look down the row of columns they all look like different meshes. This wouldn't be possible if I stacked the UVs and the repetition would be more obvious. That is a very good point however and I agree that that is a good habit, it just doesn't work for what I wanted here.

Butthair

I'd go with what Alex3d is saying. It's simple, faster and efficient. The way to modular this so the pattern is broken up is using a object world position node (if your putting this into UDK) that is LERP-ed with a random noise mask, creating different noise variations and tints based on the world space. Could also do this for the normals, mixing in touches of large detail like scratches, chips, and holes.

It's looking nice so far. Cathedrals are known for their crazy amounts of detail in pretty much everything. With the inclusion of the knot-pattern, it changes up the normal "cathedral" look, so it'll be interesting how you make this work. (I tend to think Scandinavians and Vikings with knotwork, which makes it ironic to me that they would make a place of worship against the very religion that took them over.) Anywho, I was wondering more-so if you had a concept in your head, or better yet a picture of something you're working towards?

cdevens

Butthair: Ok, so there was a slight disconnect with what I knew of Gothic history and how it related to Gothic architecture. Thanks for pointing that out, I may have to make an adjustment to that. I should have done some research.

I will mess around with the UV layout and see what I can come up with. I am still concerned with this because most of the damage is on the corners where the seams will be doing it this way.

Alex3d

Unless you have some unique damage type to the pillar(a chunk missing), nobody will notice. Yeah the seams and small deterioration will repeat, but they all look very similar anyway. On the other hand, if you can show that you can model and texture modularly, you will stand out

Baddcog

I'd suggest looking at more refs, tons of stuff on the web.

For instance


Most pillars aren't the same top and bottom. They typically taper and get smaller (well, the details at top are smaller), etc..

This one is a great example of how detail usually carries through from floor to vaulted ceilings

cdevens

Ok, so clearly I should have done a little more research and planning. I was going off of multiple photos that I found, but the theme was falling off. I am ditching the column that I built, I will use it for a different, more appropriate environment. I am now basing this environment largely off of the Notre Dame cathedral. I will be taking some liberties with the wear on the materials. I want to work on some weathered assets and have more of a damaged, abandoned, post apocalyptic feel, so I will have more damage in mine than the actual cathedral. I have started the block out and have a couple assets ready for sculpting. The image below shows how I will break down the first few assets (I will also be making a ceiling asset). Fortunately, the cathedral has a lot of repeating elements, so the first 5 or so modular pieces will account for a large portion of the whole scene. Hopefully I will have some decent updates tomorrow. Thanks for all the feedback.

Bad Spleen

The proportions to some cathederals, are based on musical number patterns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=SBL3pyosp8Q#t=1292s

If you rewind the video a little, you can learn more about the structure of musical chords, and how they are used in the building of some cathederals. May be useful to you.

cdevens

Wow, that is really cool. I had never seen that before. I play a few different instruments, so I know my music theory fairly well but I have never seen anything about it in relation to architecture. Thanks for the link, that will definitely help with spacing everything out.

Rurouni Strife

Vertex painting will also break up repetition. You should definitely plan to do that later on in the project.

cdevens

So, not a terribly exciting update. I started blocking out some of the wall. The column and bottom arch are ready for sculpting. The row of arches over that will be changed, they are basically just dupes of the bottom arch with the ends extruded out. I think I may need to soften the center of the bottom arches a little too.



Rurouni: So would you make a few different instances with the added polys needed for vertex painting, or just increase the count on all of them. I guess the count is pretty low already.

Matroskin

I`d suggest that you actually build ALL your modules as rouch meshes and compose a complete cathedral with them first.
The reason is that you only have tested them in liner layout; however, it will become trickier wehn dealing with perpendicular placement, roof attachment etc.
You risk to run into a situation when u will have finished few modules only to discover that in some layout situations they dont snap/intersect well.
Beleive me, even the seemingly obvious modular set is not as straightforward as we think it is

Btw, +1 to other ppl comments suggesting more use of tiled textures.

cdevens

Matroskin: That is a very good point. I will finish roughing in the assets before I actually start the sculpts.

Joopson

More importantly, do the math. The arches are made from an equilateral triangle; a circle is placed on the bottom two points and expanded until they form an intersection directly on the top vertex of the triangle. Pretty simple. Here is a page from a book I bought a while back on Gothic Math.



My main issue is that your arches aren't round, they are lumpy, like you were estimating. And Gothic architecture is not estimation.

cdevens

Joopson: Thank you for that info. I looked for a lot of information on Gothic architecture, but I didn't find anything that was particularly helpful (though I didn't search math in gothic architecture). I was just eyeballing the arches and I wasn't real happy with the shape. What is the name of the book that this was in, it looks very interesting. Thanks again.

Joopson

Oh, it was an ebook I bought for $10 from here: http://www.newyorkcarver.com/geometry/geometry.htm

Lots more helpful stuff in there. Rose windows, trifoils, et cetera.

Havek

I like the texturing on the floor as well as the pillar :thumbup:

Rurouni Strife

Since tiling textures are coming up here, look at all the references you've collected to this point and decide what you should make tiling and what you shouldn't. Some people like working by making tiling textures first. It's something I've been experimenting with (when I've had time).

For those pillars, you're probably fine with what you have. I'd need to see a wire frame to be sure, but two extra edge loops shouldn't hurt if they need it. This isn't always the case, but for some engines and platforms vertices aren't the biggest limiting factor.

cdevens

Thanks for all the comments everyone.

Rurouni: I plan on making some more tileable textures for the walls and pieces that don't have intricate detail. For any asset that has a lot of detail, I don't plan on using tileable textures because I don't want to loose the AO specific to the details.

Joopson: Thanks for the info. I used the pic as a blueprint and reshaped my arches. They still look more pointed than my reference, but the shape is better.

Havek: Thanks for the compliment!

I started modeling the ceiling pieces this morning. I have run into some issues for getting the effect I want. Has anyone modeled one of these ceilings before and have any good tips/techniques for getting things to work correctly. I have made a ceiling like this once before with rounded arches and was able to use part of a sphere as the base. That won't work for this ceiling, so I am exploring different methods. I started playing with splines this morning but ran out of time.

Butthair

@ Bad Spleen: That is too incredible. Thanks for that reference, that is awesome information, and I'm still tripping out about it!

@ cdevens: I'm glad you'll find that pillar another home, it looks nice and would be a shame if it never got some face time. Also nice to see some more fitting reference. I see a lot of modularity in it like your saying, perhaps even a bit more within each of the assets.

Looking forward to the more curved and flow theme. I'll be watching.

cdevens

Hey everyone,
I have a quick update for the ceiling. I found a blueprint for the cathedral and am basing the layout off of that. I built the ceiling asset today. It was hard to get a decent view since everything is so close together in there. This is just a quick and dirty snapshot with a few lights thrown in.

Alex3d

Seems legit, keep going :P

Fnitrox

hey! nice progress so far, but I think the coloumns should be much taller than they are now... i think usually 2 times the distance between them (aka diamter of the arch)

Also their upper parts needs some love too. They should be large as the capital on them, as they are now it structurally weak as the weight of the arches is not passed well enough to the coloumns and to the ground... still just my 2 cents

nice works on the vaults too, but I can't see if they've got a keystone... if not don't forget to add one as it was an element of importance both for the structure and the style itself of gothic architecture

DInusty

lookin good.

Fnitrox i think the scale is fine. that distance can be changed when you bring in a prop to help sell scale.

keep it up!

cdevens

Thanks for the comments everyone. I have blocked out some more of the cathedral.



Frozan: I changed the proportions up a little, I increased the size of the crown and the pedestal. There is no keystone at the moment, but there definitely will be when I do the hi-poly details.

Butthair: I agree, several of the chunks can probably be spit up further. I will probably end up breaking down some of the pieces into small modular assets.

Frozan: Thanks! I think when I put in things like the pews, the scale will be much clearer.

cdevens

Looking at this pic, I think I went a little crazy with the scale on the windows. They were much larger than the arches below them, but they are probably a little tall in this shot. I was looking at some other ref pics for the size of the windows.

PixelKitty

cdevens wrote: »

Looking at this pic, I think I went a little crazy with the scale on the windows. They were much larger than the arches below them, but they are probably a little tall in this shot. I was looking at some other ref pics for the size of the windows.

I have to agree about the scale of the windows, I can understand the archways being high because the ceiling inside that space mimics that height but I don't think all of the upper rows of windows need to be that tall. Are the top row of windows going to get window panes as you move forward?

Great work, keep going

cdevens

Ok, So I have adjusted the scale of things and finally worked out the crazy 6 vault shape for the ceiling. I still have to add the ribs and the keystones to the ceiling. The scale is a little harder to see in this screenshot because I played with the camera settings so I could get more of the cathedral in the shot. Just like last time, I just threw in a few lights with no real setup just to get some shadows in. I can't wait to finish blocking this out so I can start doing the high poly stuff. All crits are welcome.

Limewax

Not much of a crit here, but some relative feedback: Scale is working great. Lighting will literally make or break you in this... maybe if you did a pass @ lighting you'd get some better feedback?

Hard for us to really place ourselves in the scene without some sort of scale reference as well.

Goodluck

cdevens

Limewax: I agree, lighting and props will help greatly. It was suggested to me to block out the entire scene to work out any problems with modularity before I did anything else. It is killing me to not go in and make things look good, but I am forcing myself to finish the blockout before I do anything else. This is really just to show progress of the blockout. I will do a real lighting pass and start adding props after I finish the blockout and hi-poly work. I think the hi-poly work will help with the scale as well. Thanks for the feedback.

Joopson

Just turn on area shadows quickly in the light, and tweak the settings a bit, and even that simple addition of shadows will bring this more alive.
I'm loving it so far.

cdevens

Joopson: I completely forgot to turn on shadows before I got this shot. I was trying to get a render before I left for work and wasn't paying attention. I'll try to get a better shot with some more progress tomorrow. Thanks again for that ref on the arches, it helped a lot.

cdevens

I started building the main entrance this morning, no real update for that. I will probably have some time to work on it tonight, so I may have a decent update later. This is just the same shot as before, but I added shadows and a reference for scale. Hope to have more soon.

yubbie

looks fantastic, using better reference material has clearly paid off. I look forward to seeing more!