I have decided to create the USS Enterprise in a mini project of mine so that I can improve my portfolio. I have completed the basic model and the following images are the progress and final renders for the basic shape.
Your geometry looks quite distorted in various areas. For example the communaction dish doen't look perfectly round for me.
Anyway I think your approach is not wrong but you make things harder than they are. For me it looks ass if you are still in a block out phase. For blocking and testing shapes and silhouette I wouldn't care to merge all the parts together but working on every part on its own. So its much easier to do some tweaks in different parts like engines, bridge, upper and lower body without influeancing the shapes of other parts.
So I would suggest to split your model into the main parts. If you take a look to your reference from farther away you can clearly see some kind of hard edges where the different parts of the ship merge togerther. Form close those hard edges are of course smoothed out and merge continously into each other. But you can care about those areas when youa re happy with each part on its own.
Also be carefull with you edgeloops you have some triangles in your mesh and those might be a problem in your highpoly. So better fix this now.
On the question which software to use for your high poly it all depends on your experience. I have seen quite some impressive hardsurface work with the newset features of z brush. But going with max is also a viable approach. So you should take the route where you feel most comfortable with. Or if want to practice maybe go the long road an take the prackage where you have less experience.
Your ship geometry looks super borked. No offence but it appears that you need to learn the very basics of modeling first like how to properly select stuff, scaling and so on.
As a portfolio piece what you have so far will be useless. So yea learn the basic stuff first, then get acquainted with subdivision modeling and start all over again. Don't even think about zbrush yet. Get fit in 3dmax first.
With regards to Slave_zero I understand where you are coming from so ill detach the pieces and work on tweaking each individual piece. Do you reckon the engine supports should be part of the engine or body or totally separated from both?
What seems to be out of scale? is it the body to the engines or the body to the bridge?
Remember the images I am using are guidelines, overall I want the final product to be in my own image.
Yeah I see your point on the triangles so ill get on removing them. With regards to the body, I had mega trouble with it, I started with a cylinder and went from there and I think that wasn't the way to go. Any suggestions on tweaking that part or on how to start again from scratch? Like plane modelling etc.
I think you need to take a look at some High-poly modelling tutorials from 3d-palace, eat3d and Polycount Wiki. Subdivisionmodelling.com was awesome but I think it has since died.
The problem is here I think youve tried to model too much of the ship too quick, and lost focus on the forms themselves. The presentation is weak and you should look to try to optimise your thread so you arent seen to be spamming up a lot of images. Maybe try to combine images to single model sheet or look at selecting the best shots. Look at how others are presenting their WIPs.
First I think you need WAAAY more reference. Get lots, when you think youve got enough get more. Youll begin to get an idea for the smaller shapes and exactly how the damn thing fits together. It may well be 2 picks and a burger, but how far does the bridge sit above the main saucer.
As for the geometry you should look to block out some of the basic forms with primitives and low res shapes to get your basic forms in place. Make sure they match the reference, and in this case your plans. From what youve shown the front of the engine should be hemispherical, yours are flat. The main lower body section should be a tapered cylinder, yours is blockier and almost hexagonal. The domed bridge is missing and is flat and isnt symmetrical. Further to that look at where you can use symmetry early on in your modelling to speed up your modelling. The profile view of the lower body shows kinks and lumps where the reference shows a smooth sweeping curve. The shape of the rear of the engines also seems incorrect as yours is again flat.
As a very simple demonstration Ive overlaid the reference blueprints with the geometry so you can see where youre going wrong. Sorry the images arent cropped but it was just a quick job. Post your progress as youre going along. No-one is going to tell you how many segments of a cylinder you should be using, but you should know what happens to said cylinder if you start hacking into with the good ol swift loop tool and then whack on a Turbosmooth.
Remember the images I am using are guidelines, overall I want the final product to be in my own image.
How are you modeling a very iconic ship/vehicle and not expect people to critic it as compared to the original? If you are doing this ship you have to expect everyone to compare and critic it to the original ship, it is almost impossible to make it your own.
Some folks have covered it already but get good topology and remember you don't have to model everything as one entity.. Break up and do it in manageable chunks..
Most complex objects are composed of various parts in real life. Model complex objects as separate parts as illustrated in the images below. You are condensing the entire ship into one object. The more you can model as a separate parts the better, it will create simpler more manageable topology. If you attempt to put in control edges and model in details with your current mesh its going to be a nightmare and not work, your edges will be running all over the model.
When it comes to creating the LP is when you want to merge all the objects into a single object possible unless A: It needs to be animated or B: strange intersection that makes it otherwise hard to merge. Additionally check the websites Daaaave posted. Lastly, stick with max learn how to use it correctly and you can get a likeness with its tools.
Hi there fenix, thought I might be able to give you a hand with this.
Firstly, adding to what dave has said with his comparison of your model over the blueprints. If you haven't already, put the blueprints onto a series of planes for front, side and top elevations, and set them to the right scale. What size is up to you, I usually do 1/50th or 1/100th as the ships can be huge. Then if you feel picky and want an exact match, use the Xoliul shader (2.0 recently came out) to give a much better preview of those blueprints. I have put an example below.
As dave has also said, do your research, because this ship has been featured in a major movie and just because its star trek anyway there are naturally going to be boat loads of models of it. As you are going for a low poly attempt I suggest looking at a guy called WileyCoyote, search for his Star Trek Bridge Commander and Star Trek Armada models and you will get some really good reference material. Here is his model of the new enterprise for the Star Trek Armada RTS.
Secondly I understand you wanting to try and do your own design but what I see is an amalgamation (or kitbash however you want to phrase it) of the early enterprise, and the latest one by JJ abrahms. My recommendation is to stick to one of the other, or, or do you own completely new design. Kitbashing is rarely successful and aesthetically you can be criticized heavily whether the audience is a trek fan or not.
If you head down the custom design route, here is a page that will help you, and keep the arm chair generals happy.
Thirdly, your modelling technique - As you said this is one of your first vehicles, well I recommend follow what Perfectblue suggested, break everything down into its basic objects, then start upping the detail and iterations. using poly modelling. Elements also help with the look of a ship, it saves having to create too many chamfers for that sharp edge or artificial look you need, also, when you get onto poly modelling, macro your weld and insert edge loop tools, you'll need them.
As others have said pay close attention to the topology as well, for example on the top of the saucer section you have a single sharp edge, if you look at the game version from WileyCoyote, you will see there is maybe one or two chamfers there. Don't be afraid to use them, they can be easily removed when you weld everything up and optimize.
The fourth thing is, with star ships, in particular federation ships, is that they are symmetrical, so make use of that symmetry modifier you have. It will save you work and you won't have as many inconsistencies. Looking at the rear of your model where the shuttle bay should be I can see out of place verticies.
I have included an example of a WIP starship I am working on, this version is for an animation hence more chamfers than normal, but it is still low poly enough to be put in a game like star trek legacy. Notice how it is made of various elements. (Apologies for the large image everyone)
This is my first attempt at any type of vehicle so its going to have a few discrepancies , I'm trying to improve on my weak areas so back off.
With regards to Slave_zero I understand where you are coming from so ill detach the pieces and work on tweaking each individual piece. Do you reckon the engine supports should be part of the engine or body or totally separated from both?
What seems to be out of scale? is it the body to the engines or the body to the bridge?
Remember the images I am using are guidelines, overall I want the final product to be in my own image.
Yeah I see your point on the triangles so ill get on removing them. With regards to the body, I had mega trouble with it, I started with a cylinder and went from there and I think that wasn't the way to go. Any suggestions on tweaking that part or on how to start again from scratch? Like plane modelling etc.
Relax sir, they are just trying to help you out improving your weak areas.
When it comes to static meshes like space ship, or an air craft or anything like that, do use ready made meshes for that instead of creating the geometry on your own. Also, take a look from the front and the side and see if it the geometry is balanced. If you are starting out, I recommend you use a symmetry modifier.
Do not post on a public video game art forum, if you're going to take our critiques personally. You will get nowhere in this business if you have that sort of attitude. It is 100% unacceptable. "backoff" is exactly what people are going to do.
Do not post on a public video game art forum, if you're going to take our critiques personally. You will get nowhere in this business if you have that sort of attitude. It is 100% unacceptable. "backoff" is exactly what people are going to do.
Good luck
Dood, Wester is 100% right. swallow the ego and humble the hell down. Getting better takes time and practice.
I can tell you from past experience that I did not hire certain artists because of their attitude towards taking crits about their work. We all post here to improve our skillset. Doesn't matter if you're fresh out of school or a 10 year industry vet, your art will always need to be improved. Its part of the business, and part of the joy of making 3D assets. You will never improve your skillset if you have a hissy fit when people inform you about what you need to improve upon. Listen to them. There are a tonne of talented people on this site that have years of work experience and through out those years have learned a whole lot of techniques to help with your workflow. Love what you do, but do not fall in love with what you've done.
Do not post on a public video game art forum, if you're going to take our critiques personally. You will get nowhere in this business if you have that sort of attitude. It is 100% unacceptable. "backoff" is exactly what people are going to do.
Good luck
Ay. Go Wes!
As for you OP, keep going. If you want this (a jarb as an artist) bad enough, yo'll work hard enough and do what you need to do to get where you need to be. You already have had a lot of advice on what to make better.
Do not post on a public video game art forum, if you're going to take our critiques personally. You will get nowhere in this business if you have that sort of attitude. It is 100% unacceptable. "backoff" is exactly what people are going to do.
Good luck
Sorry guys I was on a high stress level as I have started a new job and got thrown in the deep end and I got cranky, wont happen again, momentary lapse.
All the advice has been good and I have decided to delete parts and redo them to fit the advice and my ideas and hopefully this helps the positioning in relation to the references.
The fourth thing is, with star ships, in particular federation ships, is that they are symmetrical, so make use of that symmetry modifier you have. It will save you work and you won't have as many inconsistencies. Looking at the rear of your model where the shuttle bay should be I can see out of place verticies.
I have included an example of a WIP starship I am working on, this version is for an animation hence more chamfers than normal, but it is still low poly enough to be put in a game like star trek legacy. Notice how it is made of various elements. (Apologies for the large image everyone)
I hope this helps you in some way.
Yeah thanks for the advice Ill go back and rethink the way I tackle this project, I was probably thinking too far ahead at the final goal rather than the whole thing.
Will use every bit of advice.
Does this look better than I had. With the back of the hull should I carry on from this model or do is a separate object, just to steer clear from the 'Borked' look as it were.
You still need to gather more reference and actually study the shape and form of the objects. Just this front section is still not right. Here's a load of reference from just a very quick Google search.
The upward extrusion you have made doesn't match the reference, its too wide. You don't have the stepped front cylindrical shape of the reference either.
What platform is this for? games/film? have you looked at using sub-d techniques?
This is a good suggestion. You will spend less time tweaking all of those edges by simplifying and letting the Meshsmooth/Turbosmooth modifier do the work for you. When it comes to modeling something that you want to be believable... break it down into its very basic pieces. Model it like it would be manufactured. Panels, nuts, bolts, ect... all separate pieces.
This is a good suggestion. You will spend less time tweaking all of those edges by simplifying and letting the Meshsmooth/Turbosmooth modifier do the work for you. When it comes to modeling something that you want to be believable... break it down into its very basic pieces. Model it like it would be manufactured. Panels, nuts, bolts, ect... all separate pieces.
The upward extrusion you have made doesn't match the reference, its too wide. You don't have the stepped front cylindrical shape of the reference either.
What platform is this for? games/film? have you looked at using sub-d techniques?
I get where you are coming from now with the stepped front shape. At this moment in time I am going to go by what I know and that is Game with the intention to turn it into a film model with the help of an effects artist I'm in touch with who has experience working with CGI and in game.
So I'm looking at low poly model at the moment.
Im gathering alot of references of the actual body of the ship front and back. I will make up an image board and get opinions of where to go with the idea of what I want.
Im starting from scratch as clearly I haven't thought it through as well as would expect. Everything will go and I will gather a load of references and see which ones are best suited to the idea I originally wanted and keeps away from any kitbashing.
You need to split the separate pieces of the ship into separate pieces of the model, as well. There is no reason for you to model it all as one.
You also seem to be getting odd distortions in your circle/cylinder shapes. I would make a circle, and shift+move/scale the edge loop border using much fewer loops than you have. You need to go from overall form > mid frequency detail > high frequency detail. Shape up the overall silhouette of the model first and go from there.
After going back and thinking it through, I have searched for various images of the new look Enterprise - A. Just on personal preference on the overall look of the ship.
I have gather many images, below are just a few. I am hoping I can salvage the bridge and the engines from my previous fiasco. Its going to be the hull and deflector dish that I will have to redo as many of the previous comments seemed to focus on those parts.
Replies
Anyway I think your approach is not wrong but you make things harder than they are. For me it looks ass if you are still in a block out phase. For blocking and testing shapes and silhouette I wouldn't care to merge all the parts together but working on every part on its own. So its much easier to do some tweaks in different parts like engines, bridge, upper and lower body without influeancing the shapes of other parts.
So I would suggest to split your model into the main parts. If you take a look to your reference from farther away you can clearly see some kind of hard edges where the different parts of the ship merge togerther. Form close those hard edges are of course smoothed out and merge continously into each other. But you can care about those areas when youa re happy with each part on its own.
Also be carefull with you edgeloops you have some triangles in your mesh and those might be a problem in your highpoly. So better fix this now.
On the question which software to use for your high poly it all depends on your experience. I have seen quite some impressive hardsurface work with the newset features of z brush. But going with max is also a viable approach. So you should take the route where you feel most comfortable with. Or if want to practice maybe go the long road an take the prackage where you have less experience.
As a portfolio piece what you have so far will be useless. So yea learn the basic stuff first, then get acquainted with subdivision modeling and start all over again. Don't even think about zbrush yet. Get fit in 3dmax first.
What seems to be out of scale? is it the body to the engines or the body to the bridge?
Remember the images I am using are guidelines, overall I want the final product to be in my own image.
Yeah I see your point on the triangles so ill get on removing them. With regards to the body, I had mega trouble with it, I started with a cylinder and went from there and I think that wasn't the way to go. Any suggestions on tweaking that part or on how to start again from scratch? Like plane modelling etc.
The problem is here I think youve tried to model too much of the ship too quick, and lost focus on the forms themselves. The presentation is weak and you should look to try to optimise your thread so you arent seen to be spamming up a lot of images. Maybe try to combine images to single model sheet or look at selecting the best shots. Look at how others are presenting their WIPs.
First I think you need WAAAY more reference. Get lots, when you think youve got enough get more. Youll begin to get an idea for the smaller shapes and exactly how the damn thing fits together. It may well be 2 picks and a burger, but how far does the bridge sit above the main saucer.
As for the geometry you should look to block out some of the basic forms with primitives and low res shapes to get your basic forms in place. Make sure they match the reference, and in this case your plans. From what youve shown the front of the engine should be hemispherical, yours are flat. The main lower body section should be a tapered cylinder, yours is blockier and almost hexagonal. The domed bridge is missing and is flat and isnt symmetrical. Further to that look at where you can use symmetry early on in your modelling to speed up your modelling. The profile view of the lower body shows kinks and lumps where the reference shows a smooth sweeping curve. The shape of the rear of the engines also seems incorrect as yours is again flat.
As a very simple demonstration Ive overlaid the reference blueprints with the geometry so you can see where youre going wrong. Sorry the images arent cropped but it was just a quick job. Post your progress as youre going along. No-one is going to tell you how many segments of a cylinder you should be using, but you should know what happens to said cylinder if you start hacking into with the good ol swift loop tool and then whack on a Turbosmooth.
edit. oh and found this for inspiration
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=132&t=735703&highlight=uss+enterprise
How are you modeling a very iconic ship/vehicle and not expect people to critic it as compared to the original? If you are doing this ship you have to expect everyone to compare and critic it to the original ship, it is almost impossible to make it your own.
Lol..
Some folks have covered it already but get good topology and remember you don't have to model everything as one entity.. Break up and do it in manageable chunks..
When it comes to creating the LP is when you want to merge all the objects into a single object possible unless A: It needs to be animated or B: strange intersection that makes it otherwise hard to merge. Additionally check the websites Daaaave posted. Lastly, stick with max learn how to use it correctly and you can get a likeness with its tools.
Edit: I would recommend Grant Warwicks Hard Surface Essentials videos free http://www.3dtotal.com/tutorial/3d_studio_max/hard_surface_essentials/hard_surface_01.php. If you are willing to pay pick up laurens "the Dozer" part 1 on eat3d.
Firstly, adding to what dave has said with his comparison of your model over the blueprints. If you haven't already, put the blueprints onto a series of planes for front, side and top elevations, and set them to the right scale. What size is up to you, I usually do 1/50th or 1/100th as the ships can be huge. Then if you feel picky and want an exact match, use the Xoliul shader (2.0 recently came out) to give a much better preview of those blueprints. I have put an example below.
As dave has also said, do your research, because this ship has been featured in a major movie and just because its star trek anyway there are naturally going to be boat loads of models of it. As you are going for a low poly attempt I suggest looking at a guy called WileyCoyote, search for his Star Trek Bridge Commander and Star Trek Armada models and you will get some really good reference material. Here is his model of the new enterprise for the Star Trek Armada RTS.
Secondly I understand you wanting to try and do your own design but what I see is an amalgamation (or kitbash however you want to phrase it) of the early enterprise, and the latest one by JJ abrahms. My recommendation is to stick to one of the other, or, or do you own completely new design. Kitbashing is rarely successful and aesthetically you can be criticized heavily whether the audience is a trek fan or not.
If you head down the custom design route, here is a page that will help you, and keep the arm chair generals happy.
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/design.htm
Thirdly, your modelling technique - As you said this is one of your first vehicles, well I recommend follow what Perfectblue suggested, break everything down into its basic objects, then start upping the detail and iterations. using poly modelling. Elements also help with the look of a ship, it saves having to create too many chamfers for that sharp edge or artificial look you need, also, when you get onto poly modelling, macro your weld and insert edge loop tools, you'll need them.
As others have said pay close attention to the topology as well, for example on the top of the saucer section you have a single sharp edge, if you look at the game version from WileyCoyote, you will see there is maybe one or two chamfers there. Don't be afraid to use them, they can be easily removed when you weld everything up and optimize.
The fourth thing is, with star ships, in particular federation ships, is that they are symmetrical, so make use of that symmetry modifier you have. It will save you work and you won't have as many inconsistencies. Looking at the rear of your model where the shuttle bay should be I can see out of place verticies.
I have included an example of a WIP starship I am working on, this version is for an animation hence more chamfers than normal, but it is still low poly enough to be put in a game like star trek legacy. Notice how it is made of various elements. (Apologies for the large image everyone)
I hope this helps you in some way.
Relax sir, they are just trying to help you out improving your weak areas.
When it comes to static meshes like space ship, or an air craft or anything like that, do use ready made meshes for that instead of creating the geometry on your own. Also, take a look from the front and the side and see if it the geometry is balanced. If you are starting out, I recommend you use a symmetry modifier.
Good luck
Dood, Wester is 100% right. swallow the ego and humble the hell down. Getting better takes time and practice.
Ay. Go Wes!
As for you OP, keep going. If you want this (a jarb as an artist) bad enough, yo'll work hard enough and do what you need to do to get where you need to be. You already have had a lot of advice on what to make better.
Good luck from me as well.
Sorry guys I was on a high stress level as I have started a new job and got thrown in the deep end and I got cranky, wont happen again, momentary lapse.
All the advice has been good and I have decided to delete parts and redo them to fit the advice and my ideas and hopefully this helps the positioning in relation to the references.
Yeah thanks for the advice Ill go back and rethink the way I tackle this project, I was probably thinking too far ahead at the final goal rather than the whole thing.
Will use every bit of advice.
Does this look better than I had. With the back of the hull should I carry on from this model or do is a separate object, just to steer clear from the 'Borked' look as it were.
http://forums.blendernewbies.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=408
The upward extrusion you have made doesn't match the reference, its too wide. You don't have the stepped front cylindrical shape of the reference either.
What platform is this for? games/film? have you looked at using sub-d techniques?
This is a good suggestion. You will spend less time tweaking all of those edges by simplifying and letting the Meshsmooth/Turbosmooth modifier do the work for you. When it comes to modeling something that you want to be believable... break it down into its very basic pieces. Model it like it would be manufactured. Panels, nuts, bolts, ect... all separate pieces.
Keep it coming.
+1
I get where you are coming from now with the stepped front shape. At this moment in time I am going to go by what I know and that is Game with the intention to turn it into a film model with the help of an effects artist I'm in touch with who has experience working with CGI and in game.
So I'm looking at low poly model at the moment.
Im gathering alot of references of the actual body of the ship front and back. I will make up an image board and get opinions of where to go with the idea of what I want.
Im starting from scratch as clearly I haven't thought it through as well as would expect. Everything will go and I will gather a load of references and see which ones are best suited to the idea I originally wanted and keeps away from any kitbashing.
You also seem to be getting odd distortions in your circle/cylinder shapes. I would make a circle, and shift+move/scale the edge loop border using much fewer loops than you have. You need to go from overall form > mid frequency detail > high frequency detail. Shape up the overall silhouette of the model first and go from there.
I have gather many images, below are just a few. I am hoping I can salvage the bridge and the engines from my previous fiasco. Its going to be the hull and deflector dish that I will have to redo as many of the previous comments seemed to focus on those parts.
This image will be my guideline.