correct me if I'm wrong, but by default there's no right to vacation in the US, except for the mandatory state holidays. Everything else is up to the employer. I have friends in the US who have quite generous holiday amounts though but I know others who have next to nothing.
Typically you get holidays off and accrue vacation time - contractors don't get any vacation at all. Nobody is going to do all the legal work for a 9 month contractor so you don't have to worry about that :P
maybe everyone should refrain from "my dad can beat up your dad" kind of discussions, just the facts ma'am.
I just don't understand why the US makes it so hard for us to relocate there and do honest work.
because we have a surplus of artist, every tech center I've lived in has had a large immigrant population from all over Asia because of an engineer shortage. It's funny reading the apartment reviews, a bunch of whitebread midwesterners complaining about the hallways smelling like curry.
I can't talk for economy in US or Europe as I am not interested in all of this but in order to talk about the difference in the lifestyles in Europe and US, I believe you need to experience this on your own. I was thinking the same as you Blaizer before I went there and stayed for 5 years. I turns out you will be seeking out the same thing there as you will be anywhere else. So if you think that there is a place where people don't like other people walking on the streets at 2 am then you don't go there.
I managed to enjoy every country I have been in. You can't let something like bad weather spoil your good mood?
Also I might be wrong here, but I think there are a lot more studios in the States and Canada than there are in Europe. I can clearly see why someone would like to go there.
It just takes a lot of time and money to prepare for all of this and there are really no shortcuts.
you could try applying for a green card lottery. if you win and your application is approved then you get green card which means you become legal US resident with work permit wihtout any time limits. after 5 years of permanent residence and work you can then apply for naturalization, which if you pass then you become US citizen.
EQ, no, my opinion is not based on ""OMG USD IS WORTHLESS". The weak dollar is just a point of the multiple points. Although you may don't believe it, i have REAL facts.
Yeah, the net income in USA is almost in par, but just in the best cases, and working in the best game companies. For me, it just does not compensate, nothing, because i lost more than i gain, and the money is not all in this life. I don't live to work.
That's what we think here :P. Almost all people here go to UK for game related works, they have better salaries and a stronger Pound. And being european, the problems equals to zero.
In contrast to USA, here we have free sanity (obama did something but it's far away of what we have here), 18% in IVA (sales TAX), you can't be fired once you get a steady job (we have stronger laboral rights), excellent weather, more vacations and holydays, and what for me it's a better life style and the most important thing, the family. In USA you go for a walk at 9.00pm, and it's not weird that someone in the neighbourhood calls the sherif to catch you... because they think that someone at that hour in the street... must be a delinquent. That's pathetic and it is for real. At 10pm we see people here, we have life in the streets. it's another world!
Now, in summer, is very common to see too many neighbours in the street at 1am here, enjoying the fresh air of the night with their family. The mood, the life style, the food, all is different there, and this is something i know from US friends that are now living and working here, in andalucia, and also by family members that worked in the spanish steel factory of N.A.S. in kentucky. The son of a friend/coworker of my mother says the same, he's now working in Texas in projects of civil engineering, and he's wishing to finish and return.
The life style, the mood here, is something we don't like to change. For me, Living and working in USA is not as good as living and working in Europe. All the friends i know that worked there, returned in less than 5 years. You must marry a cute girl there and earn a lot for not returning to you homeland.
Don't get me wrong, but for me, Canada would be a better country for work.
The grass is always greener. UK citizens will complain till the cows come home how they are raped by tax, and how people should never come to the UK to work.
The quality of life is much much higher in the states. Americans just don't realise it.
EQ, no, my opinion is not based on ""OMG USD IS WORTHLESS". The weak dollar is just a point of the multiple points. Although you may don't believe it, i have REAL facts.
Yeah, the net income in USA is almost in par, but just in the best cases, and working in the best game companies. For me, it just does not compensate, nothing, because i lost more than i gain, and the money is not all in this life. I don't live to work.
Do you have any data on salary? From what I know, the only place that will even be comparable to the us as far as income in Europe is the UK(but even then the cost of living is quite high), everywhere else, france, spain, etc is going to be significantly less. But i'm having trouble finding salary data for EU, its very easy to find for the US.
Unless you're talking about freelancing, then its moot. You can earn 25-400% of the average salary as a freelance, and its insane/impossible to move to the US to do freelance anyway, so its moot.
I find it a bit funny that you say "You should understand that if an european goes to USA to work for a few years, all are disadvantages in the return. It's basic economy" but then "and the money is not all in this life.". So which is it, basic economy, or money doesnt matter?
That's what we think here :P. Almost all people here go to UK for game related works, they have better salaries and a stronger Pound. And being european, the problems equals to zero.
Yeah I agree, the UK is most comparable, aside from Canada, to the US.
In contrast to USA, here we have free sanity (obama did something but it's far away of what we have here), 18% in IVA (sales TAX), you can't be fired once you get a steady job (we have stronger laboral rights), excellent weather, more vacations and holydays, and what for me it's a better life style and the most important thing, the family. In USA you go for a walk at 9.00pm, and it's not weird that someone in the neighbourhood calls the sherif to catch you... because they think that someone at that hour in the street... must be a delinquent. That's pathetic and it is for real. At 10pm we see people here, we have life in the streets. it's another world!
A. Well we pay about 30-40% income tax, I actually pay less than 20% income tax as a freelance owning a home(albiet with many tax breaks for spending money on home improvements). Sales tax varies from 5-10% in most of the US, i think its 6% here. We don't pay taxes on stuff purchased online, and I've never had to pay customs duties importing goods from other countries. So i'm not sure why you think near 20% sales tax is a good thing?
B. Call the cops after 10? Maybe in some backwoods redneck little town. Please do not try to tell me only the US has people you would rather not live near.
Now, in summer, is very common to see too many neighbours in the street at 1am here, enjoying the fresh air of the night with their family. The mood, the life style, the food, all is different there, and this is something i know from US friends that are now living and working here, in andalucia, and also by family members that worked in the spanish steel factory of N.A.S. in kentucky. The son of a friend/coworker of my mother says the same, he's now working in Texas in projects of civil engineering, and he's wishing to finish and return.
Well here is your problem, your basis for comparison is a low level factory job in Kentucky. Sure, anything is going to seem better than this. Honestly, Kentucky and much of the south is like a third world country, lol. Really, do you realize how large the US is? And how diverse the various states are? If your only comparison is Texas and Kentucky, you're going to have a bad opinion of the us. However, its like talking about quality of life in Latvia and the Ukraine, and then saying all of Europe sucks. It just makes no sense.
RE: Weather, do you realize that you can literally go from Rain forest(Seattle), to desert climates(Arizona, New Mexico etc) in the US? Really, the US is massive and has a huge variety in climate, its not hard to find a climate you like.
The life style, the mood here, is something we don't like to change. For me, Living and working in USA is not as good as living and working in Europe. All the friends i know that worked there, returned in less than 5 years. You must marry a cute girl there and earn a lot for not returning to you homeland.
Certainly, if you love where you live, why move? Lonewolf specified that he had a preference to move to the US, so... Yeah, just sort of common sense, you love spain? Don't leave spain... Nobody is trying to force you to move to the US.
Don't get me wrong, but for me, Canada would be a better country for work.
I would love to spend a few years in Canada, a few countries in Europe, etc. However, sitting on your computer and bashing a country you've never been to is just ignorant. Surely its easy to find a million first hand accounts of what is wrong with various European countries, so to paint Europe as some Utopian, and the US as some silly 1950's caricature where you're arrested out in the streets after 10:00 is just asinine.
Certainly, government health insurance and better workers rights for tech jobs would be excellent, but please, lets not act like this makes the US a third world country. You dont have to look far to find terrible stories of working conditions at game studios in the EU, and on top of that, there a much much less studios in the EU if you are at a bad one that has poor working conditions. In the US, you have much more options.
Sorry if i go off topic,( or maybe i should start new topic)but what can you tell me about moving and working in UK. I want to move there so i want some feedback.
Sorry if i go off topic,( or maybe i should start new topic)but what can you tell me about moving and working in UK. I want to move there so i want some feedback.
You're looking at many of the same concerns, you'll need a degree(or two) or 8-12 years or experience. As well as a company interested in you enough to deal with the legal stuff.
Is there something specific you want to know?
[edit] Thats assuming you're from the US. If you're in a country that is part of the European Union, I believe the process is much easier.
earthquake just dropped a nuclear logic bomb in this thread. It pretty much sums up what i was thinking.
I'm a Swedish citizen who's been living and working in California for about 2 years now and the picture you(Blazier) painted of the living conditions in the US differs a lot from what i've experienced so far.
But then again, as have been stated already, the US is pretty damn big so people are bound to have different opinions on the quality of life based on where they live and what they do for a living.
earthquake just dropped a nuclear logic bomb in this thread. It pretty much sums up what i was thinking.
I'm a Swedish citizen who's been living and working in California for about 2 years now and the picture you(Blazier) painted of the living conditions in the US differs a lot from what i've experienced so far.
But then again, as have been stated already, the US is pretty damn big so people are bound to have different opinions on the quality of life based on where they live and what they do for a living.
You're looking at many of the same concerns, you'll need a degree(or two) or 8-12 years or experience. As well as a company interested in you enough to deal with the legal stuff.
Is there something specific you want to know?
[edit] Thats assuming you're from the US. If you're in a country that is part of the European Union, I believe the process is much easier.
Yea, if you are a citizen of a member state of the EU/EEA, then you can just move and start work with no need for any sort of VISA. You can even claim unemployment benefit if you move to another member state whilst looking for work.
You don't even need a passport to enter member state borders.
The only thing you need to do is apply for a residence permit, which i believe is automatically granted, if you can prove you citizen of a member state.
But i'm having trouble finding salary data for EU, its very easy to find for the US.
There may be a OECD study about general salary levels but you'd probably have to visit each country's government websites and dig around. Average income may give you a hint. But comparing stuff even between European countries is just a hassle
But the differences between EU member states in salary, taxes and social services will be much higher than differences between individual US states though. When you take states like Bulgaria and Luxembourg, it's like comparing Mexico to Rhode Island.
About the high sales tax, actually in reality it feels much less painful than it sounds on paper... as long as it's used to keep communal services funded I'm all for it. I guess you have to pay for those in the US too, it's just financed in another way. In the end they'll take the money from you somehow
I don't want to discuss more about all this, because as EQ said, USA is so big and we all have all our facts (personal and told by friends). I already said what i needed to say. And Bad luck for me... because when i ask for euros in my freelance projects/works, they say me: "no, we pay in dollars and no more than this", and it's the same amount of what we pay here!.
Ok, USA have huge differences between states, Salaries as example. And as i prefectly know, is not the same to be working in the east coast than in the west coast in videogames. The same is for the living costs.
I find it a bit funny that you say "You should understand that if an european goes to USA to work for a few years, all are disadvantages in the return. It's basic economy" but then "and the money is not all in this life.". So which is it, basic economy, or money doesnt matter?
You didn't undestand what i said. I mean that with this weak dollar, you work 5 years, and it's like you were working here like 3 years... Here, the average net salary is 40000-60000 euros for a senior artist. Juniors earn like 18000-25000 euros. And now, tell me, as example, if the salary there is 54000 dollars, how could we leave our homeland when we live here very happy and with better conditions? (morocco people have free sanity from us aswell... ¬¬). If we could earn a bit more than the average here... to migrate would be just to be in "that project" or "just to know world". That's the reason of why i said "Money is not all". If i love all this, Spain, why the heck to change for a bit more of money?.
If we talk about taxes, germans pay a lot more than spaniards, but they earn the double!.
And EQ, don't make my words to sound so exagerated. I really don't understand why you say this : "Honestly, Kentucky and much of the south is like a third world country, lol" and later.. "lets not act like this makes the US a third world country".
China is the 1st economic power, and errr, we all know the rest. Huge nations = huge contrasts.
If your only comparison is Texas and Kentucky, you're going to have a bad opinion of the us. However, its like talking about quality of life in Latvia and the Ukraine, and then saying all of Europe sucks. It just makes no sense.
Ok, but don't forget Europe is a sum of a few nations, not a unique nation. This is not the "united states of Europe", you know :P, and BTW, Ukraine is not in the EU.
I just gave 2 examples. And I'm agree, in USA you have more work options, but understand that salaries are not so high in all the companies/states, and more like for migrating for a few years. For that reason i find very important to chose -where- and - in which company-. If we put our preferences on the table, we have less choices, no doubt.
You can sell me that working in texas is like working in the best place in the world, that i won't believe you. And texas have some of the greatest video game companies...
And come on, don't get upset because i said working is the US is not that great. It can't be helped with this economy and i don't say that because yes ¬¬.
You can sell me that working in texas is like working in the best place in the world, that i won't believe you. And texas have some of the greatest video game companies...
The low cost of living and no state income tax is nice - I'm renting a 3 bedroom house for $1100 a month compared to my 1 bedroom apartment up north that was $1450. Austin is another country inside Texas - the joke about it is: the only thing bad about Austin is you have to drive through Texas to get there.
The downside is there's a large pool of talent and it seems like most studios would rather contract people than hire full time, so not alot of opportunities for overseas workers.
Blaizer, the current exchange rate is about 1 euro = $1.40, and from all the information I can find, average income for a man, regardless of profession would be about:
(all figures in euros)
24k-54k for Spain
33k-63K for US
Averages for game artists in the US:
30K for 1 year
42K for 3-6 year
62K for 6+ years
Now, in spain you suggest salaries go from $18-60K, so I'm not really sure where you get the idea you would earn less in the US. Clearly, the min average salary is much higher in the US, and the higher end of the salary scale is about on par. However, with so few game studios in spain, i doubt many people are earning 60K+ euros at game studios there, I mean unless you can show me some research to back that up. Regardless, this idea that you would get paid 3 years for 5 is just, well, not very accurate, certainly not with the numbers you're quoting me.
To do the 3 years in 5 thing, you would have to earn:
50K 1 year
70K 3+ years
102K 6+ years
Now, if you're telling me I would earn 70,000-100,000 euros a year working an onsite job as a video game artist in Spain, well shit man, sign me up!
If your whole point was 60K euros is more thank 60K USD, well yeah, I mean that is obvious. But you would earn more USD a job in the US than your would in a similar job in EU, so that isn't really relevant.
what it comes down to - i think - is that if you're doing the whole US thing for a few years as someone from an EU member state, on your return whatever savings you may have accrued during that time will look rather meager when converted into euros.
considering all the extra money you'll be spending to move and live overseas, travelling home and such - and then to return and set up your life anew, you might have been better off financially if you would have just stayed in europe and accepted a lower paying job.
definitely different a decade back when the dollar was good AND the numbers were higher than in europe, too.
anyway, i'd treat a few years in the US as a career move mainly. if you join the right outfit, you can floor people afterwards with your resume entry later and money will follow.
what it comes down to - i think - is that if you're doing the whole US thing for a few years as someone from an EU member state, on your return whatever savings you may have accrued during that time will look rather meager when converted into euros.
considering all the extra money you'll be spending to move and live overseas, travelling home and such - and then to return and set up your life anew, you might have been better off financially if you would have just stayed in europe and accepted a lower paying job.
definitely different a decade back when the dollar was good AND the numbers were higher than in europe, too.
anyway, i'd treat a few years in the US as a career move mainly. if you join the right outfit, you can floor people afterwards with your resume entry later and money will follow.
Certainly, it isn't as good as it used to be and clearlyisnt some fairy tale type "move to the us and all your dreams will come true" thing either. There are a lot to consider too like relocation expenses etc. However, monetarily, if its about even or a little worse, or a little better, to experience a new country for a few years, I would say that is generally still a positive, not a negative.
I sort of get the feeling that people think that just because you won't get rich coming to the US for a few years means its worthless to consider. I dunno, I guess i'm just pretty open minded about the possibility of living in a different country and experiencing different cultures etc.
But euros love to hate on the US, I know its very fashionable, so whatever. =P
But euros love to hate on the US, I know its very fashionable, so whatever. =P
Plenty of Americans do too. :-P
Your calculations totally ignore healthcare and cost of living. All the cities in the US with high salaries also have ludicrous housing costs. Who cares if I make 150% as much as in Europe, but houses are 500% as much? That also ignores healthcare, which can be comparable if you are young and single and healthy, but having a plan that's mandated by the government with no possible way to ever let you fall through the cracks becomes more and more desirable the larger your family gets and the older you get. You can't put a price on that security. Couple that with most EU countries having far better pension plans that aren't being targeted for destruction (hello SS and Medicare) and the dollar to euro conversion becomes very muddled.
I know my salary was cut in half moving abroad, but now I own a house that I'll have paid off in 3-5 years, living in a capital city, no worries about healthcare or pension/retirement, and I can still buy all the gas and food I need. If I had stayed in LA with my 2x higher salary, it would still be over a decade before I could buy a 3 story house with yard close enough to work to bicycle.
All that of course is also ignoring the fact many EU countries offer far more progressive rights for GLBT members of the game industry. My Icelandic spouse can't live and work in the US even though we are legally married, but our marriage not only grants me a work/living visa here in Iceland, but even in Germany where they have the inferior civil partnerships, it's still federal and carries living and working rights for your foreign spouse, and since Iceland is part of the shengen, I can also work anywhere within the Shengen (which is most of Europe).
Also as a total aside, I want to see more eu people staying in the EU and making games there. The US has been the hotbed for media production for far too long, to a detriment in terms of homogeneous movies and games. I loved how Russian Stalker felt, or how different Witcher was, they truly had a flavor that wouldn't have come out of the US. I want to see Italian Games and Indian games (not just the outsourced art) and African games, etc.
Housing costs fluctuate so much in the US based upon where you live that your point there is not relevant.... even in the same city.
I can get a two bedroom apartment for $1000/month in the next city over, and that is around 800 sq. feet too.... and deals like this aren't hard to find.
Housing costs fluctuate so much in the US based upon where you live that your point there is not relevant.... even in the same city.
I can get a two bedroom apartment for $1000/month in the next city over, and that is around 800 sq. feet too.... and deals like this aren't hard to find.
You seem to be confusing housing costs with... apartment rent?
Your calculations totally ignore healthcare and cost of living. All the cities in the US with high salaries also have ludicrous housing costs. Who cares if I make 150% as much as in Europe, but houses are 500% as much? That also ignores healthcare, which can be comparable if you are young and single and healthy, but having a plan that's mandated by the government with no possible way to ever let you fall through the cracks becomes more and more desirable the larger your family gets and the older you get. You can't put a price on that security. Couple that with most EU countries having far better pension plans that aren't being targeted for destruction (hello SS and Medicare) and the dollar to euro conversion becomes very muddled.
Most cities in the EU that you would make a comparable salary in the games industry are going to have high cost of living too. You're also ignoring places like Austin and Dallas etc which have low cost of living, but still relatively high salary. Its easy to look at LA and say cost of living is outrageous for the games industry, but there are much much more options out there than LA/Socal.
Any job decent enough to leave a country for is also going to provide a very good health insurance plan, so that is more or less moot. Unless you have a spouse and kids, then you're going to be out of pocket. But for just an individual, its not going to make much of a difference, especially when you're generally looking at increased taxes to pay for that free health care. When I was onsite I was paying like $30 or something a month for HI.
That is not to say that I wouldn't mind some free health care of my own, I am fully in support of that here. As a freelancer healthcare costs for me and my wife are a pretty large burden. It really is just sort of insane that it hasn't been done properly yet.
But euros love to hate on the US, I know its very fashionable, so whatever. =P
you can mainly thank a certain former president for that.
anyway i'm not hating. i agree living abroad is a good one. i'd certainly move to the states - for the right outfit but definitely with the goal to return home one day.
When I was onsite I was paying like $30 or something a month for HI.
When you were on site was before the current healthcare debacle. No one who still has employer provided healthcare is paying 30 dollars a month anymore. Their deductables and lifetime caps are certainly not what they were when you were on site either. Employer provided healthcare in the tech companies of the US was the bomb 10 years ago. Now it's alright, definitely on par with Germany/Iceland/Canada, but it's getting worse and will continue to cover less, cost more per month, and have higher deductibles and lower lifetime payout caps.
Another thing that seems irrelevant when you're 20, but matters more when you're 30, and even more at 40.
you can mainly thank a certain former president for that.
anyway i'm not hating. i agree living abroad is a good one. i'd certainly move to the states - for the right outfit but definitely with the goal to return home one day.
Yeah that wasn't specifically meant for you, as everything you've been saying is quite reasonable.
The main reason i'm posting in this thread is to simply counter the idea that, as blaizer so eloquently stated:
With the actual economy, i don't recommed you to go to USA :P, they are in the border of a disaster.
You should understand that if an european goes to USA to work for a few years, all are disadvantages in the return. It's basic economy
Which to me is simply sensational. Certainly there are major pros and major cons to the US, like any country. And you should use common sense to weight them against salary, and any other specific quality of life requirements you may have, but this is the same as if you're moving to the next town, next state, or whatever. And certainly, the US bares more than enough pros to be worth consideration.
Ben: I'm not going to sit here and be the spokesperson against free healthcare, as I've said I am very much in favor of it.
Replies
p.s. I am now dead
Typically you get holidays off and accrue vacation time - contractors don't get any vacation at all. Nobody is going to do all the legal work for a 9 month contractor so you don't have to worry about that :P
maybe everyone should refrain from "my dad can beat up your dad" kind of discussions, just the facts ma'am.
because we have a surplus of artist, every tech center I've lived in has had a large immigrant population from all over Asia because of an engineer shortage. It's funny reading the apartment reviews, a bunch of whitebread midwesterners complaining about the hallways smelling like curry.
I managed to enjoy every country I have been in. You can't let something like bad weather spoil your good mood?
Also I might be wrong here, but I think there are a lot more studios in the States and Canada than there are in Europe. I can clearly see why someone would like to go there.
It just takes a lot of time and money to prepare for all of this and there are really no shortcuts.
depends. try the UK for a couple years and we'll see about that.
The grass is always greener. UK citizens will complain till the cows come home how they are raped by tax, and how people should never come to the UK to work.
The quality of life is much much higher in the states. Americans just don't realise it.
Do you have any data on salary? From what I know, the only place that will even be comparable to the us as far as income in Europe is the UK(but even then the cost of living is quite high), everywhere else, france, spain, etc is going to be significantly less. But i'm having trouble finding salary data for EU, its very easy to find for the US.
Unless you're talking about freelancing, then its moot. You can earn 25-400% of the average salary as a freelance, and its insane/impossible to move to the US to do freelance anyway, so its moot.
I find it a bit funny that you say "You should understand that if an european goes to USA to work for a few years, all are disadvantages in the return. It's basic economy" but then "and the money is not all in this life.". So which is it, basic economy, or money doesnt matter?
Yeah I agree, the UK is most comparable, aside from Canada, to the US.
A. Well we pay about 30-40% income tax, I actually pay less than 20% income tax as a freelance owning a home(albiet with many tax breaks for spending money on home improvements). Sales tax varies from 5-10% in most of the US, i think its 6% here. We don't pay taxes on stuff purchased online, and I've never had to pay customs duties importing goods from other countries. So i'm not sure why you think near 20% sales tax is a good thing?
B. Call the cops after 10? Maybe in some backwoods redneck little town. Please do not try to tell me only the US has people you would rather not live near.
Well here is your problem, your basis for comparison is a low level factory job in Kentucky. Sure, anything is going to seem better than this. Honestly, Kentucky and much of the south is like a third world country, lol. Really, do you realize how large the US is? And how diverse the various states are? If your only comparison is Texas and Kentucky, you're going to have a bad opinion of the us. However, its like talking about quality of life in Latvia and the Ukraine, and then saying all of Europe sucks. It just makes no sense.
RE: Weather, do you realize that you can literally go from Rain forest(Seattle), to desert climates(Arizona, New Mexico etc) in the US? Really, the US is massive and has a huge variety in climate, its not hard to find a climate you like.
Certainly, if you love where you live, why move? Lonewolf specified that he had a preference to move to the US, so... Yeah, just sort of common sense, you love spain? Don't leave spain... Nobody is trying to force you to move to the US.
I would love to spend a few years in Canada, a few countries in Europe, etc. However, sitting on your computer and bashing a country you've never been to is just ignorant. Surely its easy to find a million first hand accounts of what is wrong with various European countries, so to paint Europe as some Utopian, and the US as some silly 1950's caricature where you're arrested out in the streets after 10:00 is just asinine.
Certainly, government health insurance and better workers rights for tech jobs would be excellent, but please, lets not act like this makes the US a third world country. You dont have to look far to find terrible stories of working conditions at game studios in the EU, and on top of that, there a much much less studios in the EU if you are at a bad one that has poor working conditions. In the US, you have much more options.
You're looking at many of the same concerns, you'll need a degree(or two) or 8-12 years or experience. As well as a company interested in you enough to deal with the legal stuff.
Is there something specific you want to know?
[edit] Thats assuming you're from the US. If you're in a country that is part of the European Union, I believe the process is much easier.
I'm a Swedish citizen who's been living and working in California for about 2 years now and the picture you(Blazier) painted of the living conditions in the US differs a lot from what i've experienced so far.
But then again, as have been stated already, the US is pretty damn big so people are bound to have different opinions on the quality of life based on where they live and what they do for a living.
How did you moved to USA?
Yea, if you are a citizen of a member state of the EU/EEA, then you can just move and start work with no need for any sort of VISA. You can even claim unemployment benefit if you move to another member state whilst looking for work.
You don't even need a passport to enter member state borders.
The only thing you need to do is apply for a residence permit, which i believe is automatically granted, if you can prove you citizen of a member state.
Freedom of movement ftw
There may be a OECD study about general salary levels but you'd probably have to visit each country's government websites and dig around. Average income may give you a hint. But comparing stuff even between European countries is just a hassle
But the differences between EU member states in salary, taxes and social services will be much higher than differences between individual US states though. When you take states like Bulgaria and Luxembourg, it's like comparing Mexico to Rhode Island.
About the high sales tax, actually in reality it feels much less painful than it sounds on paper... as long as it's used to keep communal services funded I'm all for it. I guess you have to pay for those in the US too, it's just financed in another way. In the end they'll take the money from you somehow
Ok, USA have huge differences between states, Salaries as example. And as i prefectly know, is not the same to be working in the east coast than in the west coast in videogames. The same is for the living costs.
You didn't undestand what i said. I mean that with this weak dollar, you work 5 years, and it's like you were working here like 3 years... Here, the average net salary is 40000-60000 euros for a senior artist. Juniors earn like 18000-25000 euros. And now, tell me, as example, if the salary there is 54000 dollars, how could we leave our homeland when we live here very happy and with better conditions? (morocco people have free sanity from us aswell... ¬¬). If we could earn a bit more than the average here... to migrate would be just to be in "that project" or "just to know world". That's the reason of why i said "Money is not all". If i love all this, Spain, why the heck to change for a bit more of money?.
If we talk about taxes, germans pay a lot more than spaniards, but they earn the double!.
And EQ, don't make my words to sound so exagerated. I really don't understand why you say this
China is the 1st economic power, and errr, we all know the rest. Huge nations = huge contrasts.
Ok, but don't forget Europe is a sum of a few nations, not a unique nation. This is not the "united states of Europe", you know :P, and BTW, Ukraine is not in the EU.
I just gave 2 examples. And I'm agree, in USA you have more work options, but understand that salaries are not so high in all the companies/states, and more like for migrating for a few years. For that reason i find very important to chose -where- and - in which company-. If we put our preferences on the table, we have less choices, no doubt.
You can sell me that working in texas is like working in the best place in the world, that i won't believe you. And texas have some of the greatest video game companies...
And come on, don't get upset because i said working is the US is not that great. It can't be helped with this economy and i don't say that because yes ¬¬.
The low cost of living and no state income tax is nice - I'm renting a 3 bedroom house for $1100 a month compared to my 1 bedroom apartment up north that was $1450. Austin is another country inside Texas - the joke about it is: the only thing bad about Austin is you have to drive through Texas to get there.
The downside is there's a large pool of talent and it seems like most studios would rather contract people than hire full time, so not alot of opportunities for overseas workers.
(all figures in euros)
24k-54k for Spain
33k-63K for US
http://www.payscale.com/research/ES/Country=Spain/Salary
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Country=United_States/Salary
Averages for game artists in the US:
30K for 1 year
42K for 3-6 year
62K for 6+ years
Now, in spain you suggest salaries go from $18-60K, so I'm not really sure where you get the idea you would earn less in the US. Clearly, the min average salary is much higher in the US, and the higher end of the salary scale is about on par. However, with so few game studios in spain, i doubt many people are earning 60K+ euros at game studios there, I mean unless you can show me some research to back that up. Regardless, this idea that you would get paid 3 years for 5 is just, well, not very accurate, certainly not with the numbers you're quoting me.
To do the 3 years in 5 thing, you would have to earn:
50K 1 year
70K 3+ years
102K 6+ years
Now, if you're telling me I would earn 70,000-100,000 euros a year working an onsite job as a video game artist in Spain, well shit man, sign me up!
http://gamedeveloper.texterity.com/gamedeveloper/201104?pg=10#pg10
If your whole point was 60K euros is more thank 60K USD, well yeah, I mean that is obvious. But you would earn more USD a job in the US than your would in a similar job in EU, so that isn't really relevant.
considering all the extra money you'll be spending to move and live overseas, travelling home and such - and then to return and set up your life anew, you might have been better off financially if you would have just stayed in europe and accepted a lower paying job.
definitely different a decade back when the dollar was good AND the numbers were higher than in europe, too.
anyway, i'd treat a few years in the US as a career move mainly. if you join the right outfit, you can floor people afterwards with your resume entry later and money will follow.
Certainly, it isn't as good as it used to be and clearlyisnt some fairy tale type "move to the us and all your dreams will come true" thing either. There are a lot to consider too like relocation expenses etc. However, monetarily, if its about even or a little worse, or a little better, to experience a new country for a few years, I would say that is generally still a positive, not a negative.
I sort of get the feeling that people think that just because you won't get rich coming to the US for a few years means its worthless to consider. I dunno, I guess i'm just pretty open minded about the possibility of living in a different country and experiencing different cultures etc.
But euros love to hate on the US, I know its very fashionable, so whatever. =P
Plenty of Americans do too. :-P
Your calculations totally ignore healthcare and cost of living. All the cities in the US with high salaries also have ludicrous housing costs. Who cares if I make 150% as much as in Europe, but houses are 500% as much? That also ignores healthcare, which can be comparable if you are young and single and healthy, but having a plan that's mandated by the government with no possible way to ever let you fall through the cracks becomes more and more desirable the larger your family gets and the older you get. You can't put a price on that security. Couple that with most EU countries having far better pension plans that aren't being targeted for destruction (hello SS and Medicare) and the dollar to euro conversion becomes very muddled.
I know my salary was cut in half moving abroad, but now I own a house that I'll have paid off in 3-5 years, living in a capital city, no worries about healthcare or pension/retirement, and I can still buy all the gas and food I need. If I had stayed in LA with my 2x higher salary, it would still be over a decade before I could buy a 3 story house with yard close enough to work to bicycle.
All that of course is also ignoring the fact many EU countries offer far more progressive rights for GLBT members of the game industry. My Icelandic spouse can't live and work in the US even though we are legally married, but our marriage not only grants me a work/living visa here in Iceland, but even in Germany where they have the inferior civil partnerships, it's still federal and carries living and working rights for your foreign spouse, and since Iceland is part of the shengen, I can also work anywhere within the Shengen (which is most of Europe).
Also as a total aside, I want to see more eu people staying in the EU and making games there. The US has been the hotbed for media production for far too long, to a detriment in terms of homogeneous movies and games. I loved how Russian Stalker felt, or how different Witcher was, they truly had a flavor that wouldn't have come out of the US. I want to see Italian Games and Indian games (not just the outsourced art) and African games, etc.
I can get a two bedroom apartment for $1000/month in the next city over, and that is around 800 sq. feet too.... and deals like this aren't hard to find.
You seem to be confusing housing costs with... apartment rent?
Most cities in the EU that you would make a comparable salary in the games industry are going to have high cost of living too. You're also ignoring places like Austin and Dallas etc which have low cost of living, but still relatively high salary. Its easy to look at LA and say cost of living is outrageous for the games industry, but there are much much more options out there than LA/Socal.
Any job decent enough to leave a country for is also going to provide a very good health insurance plan, so that is more or less moot. Unless you have a spouse and kids, then you're going to be out of pocket. But for just an individual, its not going to make much of a difference, especially when you're generally looking at increased taxes to pay for that free health care. When I was onsite I was paying like $30 or something a month for HI.
That is not to say that I wouldn't mind some free health care of my own, I am fully in support of that here. As a freelancer healthcare costs for me and my wife are a pretty large burden. It really is just sort of insane that it hasn't been done properly yet.
you can mainly thank a certain former president for that.
anyway i'm not hating. i agree living abroad is a good one. i'd certainly move to the states - for the right outfit but definitely with the goal to return home one day.
When you were on site was before the current healthcare debacle. No one who still has employer provided healthcare is paying 30 dollars a month anymore. Their deductables and lifetime caps are certainly not what they were when you were on site either. Employer provided healthcare in the tech companies of the US was the bomb 10 years ago. Now it's alright, definitely on par with Germany/Iceland/Canada, but it's getting worse and will continue to cover less, cost more per month, and have higher deductibles and lower lifetime payout caps.
Another thing that seems irrelevant when you're 20, but matters more when you're 30, and even more at 40.
Yeah that wasn't specifically meant for you, as everything you've been saying is quite reasonable.
The main reason i'm posting in this thread is to simply counter the idea that, as blaizer so eloquently stated: Which to me is simply sensational. Certainly there are major pros and major cons to the US, like any country. And you should use common sense to weight them against salary, and any other specific quality of life requirements you may have, but this is the same as if you're moving to the next town, next state, or whatever. And certainly, the US bares more than enough pros to be worth consideration.
Ben: I'm not going to sit here and be the spokesperson against free healthcare, as I've said I am very much in favor of it.