GameTrailers staff never reads the feedback in the comment sections. They don't even have a proper anti-spam filter set in place. The most they do is read about said comments if they spill into the forums.
GameTrailers staff never reads the feedback in the comment sections. They don't even have a proper anti-spam filter set in place. The most they do is read about said comments if they spill into the forums.
I've been on GT since 2006 and I don't think they ever spill into the forums, they've got moderators for that who don't even work for GT. Heck, I had a good chance at becoming one myself but then I wouldn't be here..
for everyone saying that bonuses are some kind of whimsical fairy dust, and not to expect them;
I was recently shocked to find out that the country I live in, if you are a full time employee then bonuses are a mandatory part of your contract, twice a year, for many if not all industries.
A friend of mine who is a teacher for a school got a bonus this christmas that was equal to 3 months pay! He was able to move house to a new rented apartment, then he got his summer bonus and went on holiday.
I've only ever worked contract over here and now indie, so bonuses are still the thing of magic pixie dust for me too, but if a company gives bonuses to staff here, they have to do it for all full time employees under the law.
for everyone saying that bonuses are some kind of whimsical fairy dust, and not to expect them;
I was recently shocked to find out that the country I live in, if you are a full time employee then bonuses are a mandatory part of your contract, twice a year, for many if not all industries.
A friend of mine who is a teacher for a school got a bonus this christmas that was equal to 3 months pay! He was able to move house to a new rented apartment, then he got his summer bonus and went on holiday.
I've only ever worked contract over here and now indie, so bonuses are still the thing of magic pixie dust for me too, but if a company gives bonuses to staff here, they have to do it for all full time employees under the law.
Unless your job makes you happy- in that case, you`re living well (via working). Sadly, all honeymoons come to an end over time
I don`t really have much sympathy for people bitching about crunch. I feel like the workers in the game biz have been gladly bending over and taking it for decades. As a work force we need to STOP doing that. If your upper managment has you working unreasonable hours- then they are unreasonable and need to be treated as such. I feel too often management plans for crunch and they need to learn to plan deadlines with that NOT in mind. Thats only going to happen if we all stop being such nerdly pushovers.
It's shit like this that has pretty much made me one of the people I'd never thought I'd become... someone who worked in the game industry, got burned, and until shit like this gets sorted is in no rush to go jumping back in.
I make more as a buyer for a small tech company than I did working as an fx artist. I definitely miss working on games for a job, but I don't miss the kind of crap work ethic the game industry is full-steaming itself towards / through. I still can't believe the kind of comments / fake grief I got from a few coworkers about having time-consuming projects outside of my job.
This, more than anything else, is the real consequence and danger of the current approach to salaried game development. (and the abuse thereof)
This industry has an extremely hard time maintaining talent. And this trend is getting worse.
flaagan is a perfect example. Game development professionals in all the areas of game development are getting fed up with the system they find themselves in. When they eventually leave, they discover that their skills can get them much higher paying and less stressful jobs in other industries. Most of them never come back to developing games, the benefits to their quality of life are too good to abandon.
The result is that the game industry openly accepts inexperienced youngsters straight out of high school or college, burns through them in three-five years, and then fires them when their salaries get too high. At that point they either seek a higher position in another company, or burn out and leave the industry.
In a way, its kind of a trial-by-fire for first-timers. And those who manage to hang on for any amount of time have the experience necessary to make it just fine in other industries. So you can't say it is especially bad for the individuals themselves, they usually end up landing on their feet.
However, it is bad for the industry itself. You're not going to get more nuanced and sophisticated games out of a constant rookie-chewing machine. Mature, experienced talent is necessary for more mature titles. Failing to cultivate talent is eventually going to bite the game industry in the ass.
Moreover, the industry is probably alienating more experienced talent. I've personally always wanted to work in games. But at this point in my life I probably will never enter the "traditional" game workforce. I would have to take a substantial pay cut, and work ridiculous hours just to get an entry level position at a game company. My current job and benefits are just way more appealing. I might be able to swing indie development on the side eventually, but there's no good reason for me to apply for game jobs now.
for everyone saying that bonuses are some kind of whimsical fairy dust, and not to expect them;
I was recently shocked to find out that the country I live in, if you are a full time employee then bonuses are a mandatory part of your contract, twice a year, for many if not all industries.
A friend of mine who is a teacher for a school got a bonus this christmas that was equal to 3 months pay! He was able to move house to a new rented apartment, then he got his summer bonus and went on holiday.
I've only ever worked contract over here and now indie, so bonuses are still the thing of magic pixie dust for me too, but if a company gives bonuses to staff here, they have to do it for all full time employees under the law.
(then again, overtime pay is non-existent here)
I heard that those "bonuses" are actually just withheld pay (in japan)
yea pretty much what konstruct said. I just flat out didnt work any overtime on my last job, especially cause it was a contract gig. all the contractors in the studio seemed to realize it was bullshit to be hired and worked into the ground for 6 months then just cut loose. we all just decided to not do overtime , we didnt sit down and discuss it, just more so when we saw each other leaving at 6 it was like fuck yea, im outta here too. no one got laid off, no one said shit all to us and it was just accepted that contractors were not gonna get fucked in the ass no more. its as simple as that, just stop doing it if you don't want to.
the attitude of working for a "free" 10 dollar dinner or some candy bars and soda as acceptable for even an hour or 2 of your time extra has got to change.
the attitude of working for a "free" 10 dollar dinner or some candy bars and soda as acceptable for even an hour or 2 of your time extra has got to change.
Compound this with how much the company is making off of your time. It's not just that someone is giving up their time for far less than they're worth, but the company is making even MORE profit.
They give you a 'free' 10 dollar dinner instead of paying you a fair wage for your time, AND they make how much return off of the work you did for essentially free. Why would they ever want to change the way they do business?!
There does seem to be a lack of talented new developers similar to Will Wright, and Pete Molyneux, that you hear about. It still all seems to be the old guys whom we hear about or indie devs.
And those who manage to hang on for any amount of time have the experience necessary to make it just fine in other industries. So you can't say it is especially bad for the individuals themselves, they usually end up landing on their feet.
Are there that many options for games industry artists apart from film/TV? It seems as though the software developers and management have the most options for moving to other industries as their transferable skills seem like they are in more demand than ours.
There does seem to be a lack of talented new developers similar to Will Wright, and Pete Molyneux, that you hear about. It still all seems to be the old guys whom we hear about or indie devs.
Completely different industry today. The focus has since shifted to "teams", instead of a few individuals making games (which still happens, just not as much).
This whole thread gave me a headache. I'm glad I haven't experienced any of this so far, but sadly I feel like I will eventually.
Completely different industry today. The focus has since shifted to "teams", instead of a few individuals making games (which still happens, just not as much).
This whole thread gave me a headache. I'm glad I haven't experienced any of this so far, but sadly I feel like I will eventually.
-m
There were teams in the past as well, they had to have help to make their games. I'm talking about like Directors for movies.
Will Wright for instance had this vision for a game called The Sims, no ones copied it succesfully, no one else seems to understand why its so popular. But thats beside the point he had this idea for a unique game and Directed, and guided it into his vision, which has made a ton of money for EA.
You dont really seem to see that for the COD games or very few mainstream games now. Brendan McNamara I guess would be one, albeit he seems to be an arsehole, but even then he's only been behind one concept. Diretors only seem to be allowed to make one concept and must stick with that.
Are there that many options for games industry artists apart from film/TV? It seems as though the software developers and management have the most options for moving to other industries as their transferable skills seem like they are in more demand than ours.
Quoting because I am curious as well. Software developers will always find it easier to transfer skills to another position, but as Baj Singh pointed out what other avenues are there for 3D artists?
arch vis, 3d printing industry, toy design/product design, advertising can all use your skills as an artist, 3d or otherwise. if you learn autoCAD, you can get into the high end millwork design or automotive design. those are a few off the top of my head, I am sure if you looked into it you would be able to find more. or you could go teach at AI or any game art school if you have a few years experience/couple of shipped titles under your belt. I know the schools here in van are always looking for part time and full time instructors who know their shit.
arch vis, 3d printing industry, toy design/product design, advertising can all use your skills as an artist, 3d or otherwise. if you learn autoCAD, you can get into the high end millwork design or automotive design.
Thanks for the input. However I will say I consistently here bad things about the achvis industry not only from forum users here but CGtalk and a few of my friends as well.
There does seem to be a lack of talented new developers similar to Will Wright, and Pete Molyneux, that you hear about. It still all seems to be the old guys whom we hear about or indie devs.
Those old guys started out as indie devs
as far as teaching, I've heard it doesn't pay as well.
Im in the process of working through a 6 week Internship that's 2 hours away with NO promise of full-time paid work coming down the line...
so I dont have too much sympathy ATM.
Im sure once I have an actual job that pays and I have to pull crunch ill change my mind.
as far as teaching, I've heard it doesn't pay as well.
My school had a lot of people who would teach a 7-10PM class after work. It seemed like a fun way to make some extra money. Certainly being a fulltime teacher doesn't seem to pay well though.
yea the guys I know who do part time teaching make between 40-60 bucks an hr, for 4-12 hours a week worth of work. at 12 hours a week thats an extra 20g+ a year, nice way to supplement your salary at a studio. fulltime teaching probably doesn't pay as well, which is ridiculous seeing as how a class of 15-30 students each paying 40-60G for a year, you would think they could afford to pay the teachers some good money, but again its corporate bullshit and money swine grabbing.
My school had a lot of people who would teach a 7-10PM class after work. It seemed like a fun way to make some extra money. Certainly being a fulltime teacher doesn't seem to pay well though.
Totally agree there. I had an awesome instructor who taught 5 days at 2 schools, in the mornings, worked at massive black in the afternoon, and also does freelance.
The guys got no idea and belongs to that old school (and dying) breed of managers.
There are many far more difficult industries which daily manage large and diverse staffing, short or fluctuating deadlines, difficult expectations, scope creep and countless things outside of what this industry deals with.
If they can do it without excessive forced overtime, staff morale issues and consistently under scoping then I really can't see why our industry has an issue...
It's a real pity our industry largely overlooks/allows cowboy development from people who really wouldn't cut it in more professional industries.
Try building a dam, controlling the entire power grid of a country...maybe run the medical infrastructure of France or drive a global shipping fleet which determines if the oil for our industrial backbone is delivered on time..I know, get a man on the fucking moon!!...FFS we make games...its not rocket surgery. :P
Its completely possible to do good work, on time, on budget and without fucking over your staff if you manage your scope, employ talented/passionate people (not a million juniors you can push around) and are honest with your budget and timeline. Our industry just consistently tries to underbid each other trying to please our publishers which just forces the workers to do more with less.
Its not a sustainable process, but sadly we get these guys who are full of it and worse staff who pride themselves on being hardcore, "Man if you can't cut it like me go elsewhere bra" then top it all off we have entry level workers who'd gladly sell a kidney ot get a foot in the door whom all help perpetrate the myth its feasible and acceptable.
bah, douche bags....
Edit: to put it in personal context, I would never knowingly promise something which isn't feasible to my superiors and then turn around and expect my staff to just suck it up and deliver regardless of what it means to their mental health.
That's called being a poor manager (and a douche) and I'd expect to be fired.
How is it any different if a company knowingly undercuts its resources to get a project or over scopes the title with the available resources and expects its staff to take the load?
So glad I've never been directly effected by this sort of mentality.
Actually theres little evidence that the pyramid builders were treated like that. Last I heard they were more like willing recruits whom were fed and treated well.
Actually theres little evidence that the pyramid builders were treated like that. Last I heard they were more like willing recruits whom were fed and treated well.
true...wonder if they will ever say this in the future about the games industry? ...although I do have very little to complain about
. In places like WETA, they basically force your organize your work, so everyone knows which station worked on what during what time on which day and which revision of the file to see.
Money is the great equalizer, and even then crunch can get out of hand.
My personal opinion on why games see so many crunch problems/stories is that they have no history of overtime, so it's very easy to just have people work. If you look at film pre-computer days, it has a history of paying for overtime for people actually working on set doing physical jobs, which makes people accountable for at least trying to avoid it. Many places you have to be approved to work longer hours. However, if it does get to that, at least people get paid time-n-half for over 8 hours and double-time for the "golden hour" and so-called seventh day. Most visual effects studios grew with that standard and just kept it up when the computer fx came online. A person working on a computer is no different then a person working on set(who is getting OT). The places where you do hear horror stories about are mostly boutique style shops that had no history and came to being when the desktop became an affordable tool to work on. Kind of just sprung up out of nowhere bidding low on shows and taking what they could get. Then just expecting people to be happy working on a film so "why pay them over-time?" The studio had no experience doing it.
The game industry is similar to those boutiques that just sprung out of the ground. You have people making games in garages and then later over many years growing into places like EA. You have a handful of people working around the clock at times "back in the day," and it just became normal. The first bad crunch I heard about was Starcraft1, and that was for a month if I remember correctly. Blizzard was much smaller then and I can only assume many of those people made a killing off bonuses. That mentality is carried forward across many studios and years that saw the success, crunch hard because that's what the big boys do.
When you don't have to actually pay people for their time and are working off the "salary" basis, it's very easy to (ask) people to work long hours, even making it sound non-optional. I believe you can't force people to do this, but the consequences for not doing it can be great. You won't look like a team player, and when/if bonuses do roll around, it won't be forgotten who didn't "crunch," possibly even if your work is great and on-time. You may get worse assignments, etc...who knows, every place is different.
The point is game places have a history of not having to account for this time, instead using an arbitrary bonus system, which can be good, but can also leave some high and dry or not even equal to time spent working. When people have to shell out money for "infinity/hours" per week, they are less likely to have the whole crew crunch and instead put more time into making a working pipeline that moves forward and commit to final-ing things. A lot of places seem to take advantage of these free hours, you like your job, it's fun anyway, that's how it's always been done, team spirit mentality.
Not everyone has the option to buck the system, and some do just have to suck it up till they can move on. Not all crunches are bad though. Granted, games are a little bit more fluid then a film, but after all these years, you'd think it could be done in a normal working environment. Of course there are times where a few weeks of crunch helps, but something is out of whack when people are crunching for six months to a year. While it can be done and does, it's not realistic to have these expectations. If people had to pay for this time, they be forced to change. Until they do though, why would they want to?
I think the problem of the games industry is that it grew very fast. Perhaps too fast. It's on the level of the film industry is terms of scope and budgets but It didn't get to mature in that time.
It is still continuing to grow very fast and we are spearheading most of business and development innovations while other industries are playing catchup. Social networking through multiplayer, dlc, digital distribution, cross media interaction, mobile.. It is our to our advantage that we continue to evolve, unfortunately recognition as legitimate professionals, fair labour practices, individual recognition in the media etc are all things that are getting discussed only now.
The same drama of work for living. I still think that there should be unions for game development, specially in US. Disney and Dreamworks do. Why can't games have?
less stress = quality of work = fair payments = same time.
Money is the great equalizer, and even then crunch can get out of hand.
My personal opinion on why games see so many crunch problems/stories is that they have no history of overtime, so it's very easy to just have people work. If you look at film pre-computer days, it has a history of paying for overtime for people actually working on set doing physical jobs, which makes people accountable for at least trying to avoid it. Many places you have to be approved to work longer hours. However, if it does get to that, at least people get paid time-n-half for over 8 hours and double-time for the "golden hour" and so-called seventh day. Most visual effects studios grew with that standard and just kept it up when the computer fx came online. A person working on a computer is no different then a person working on set(who is getting OT). The places where you do hear horror stories about are mostly boutique style shops that had no history and came to being when the desktop became an affordable tool to work on. Kind of just sprung up out of nowhere bidding low on shows and taking what they could get. Then just expecting people to be happy working on a film so "why pay them over-time?" The studio had no experience doing it.
The game industry is similar to those boutiques that just sprung out of the ground. You have people making games in garages and then later over many years growing into places like EA. You have a handful of people working around the clock at times "back in the day," and it just became normal. The first bad crunch I heard about was Starcraft1, and that was for a month if I remember correctly. Blizzard was much smaller then and I can only assume many of those people made a killing off bonuses. That mentality is carried forward across many studios and years that saw the success, crunch hard because that's what the big boys do.
When you don't have to actually pay people for their time and are working off the "salary" basis, it's very easy to (ask) people to work long hours, even making it sound non-optional. I believe you can't force people to do this, but the consequences for not doing it can be great. You won't look like a team player, and when/if bonuses do roll around, it won't be forgotten who didn't "crunch," possibly even if your work is great and on-time. You may get worse assignments, etc...who knows, every place is different.
The point is game places have a history of not having to account for this time, instead using an arbitrary bonus system, which can be good, but can also leave some high and dry or not even equal to time spent working. When people have to shell out money for "infinity/hours" per week, they are less likely to have the whole crew crunch and instead put more time into making a working pipeline that moves forward and commit to final-ing things. A lot of places seem to take advantage of these free hours, you like your job, it's fun anyway, that's how it's always been done, team spirit mentality.
Not everyone has the option to buck the system, and some do just have to suck it up till they can move on. Not all crunches are bad though. Granted, games are a little bit more fluid then a film, but after all these years, you'd think it could be done in a normal working environment. Of course there are times where a few weeks of crunch helps, but something is out of whack when people are crunching for six months to a year. While it can be done and does, it's not realistic to have these expectations. If people had to pay for this time, they be forced to change. Until they do though, why would they want to?
I think the problem of the games industry is that it grew very fast. Perhaps too fast. It's on the level of the film industry is terms of scope and budgets but It didn't get to mature in that time.
It is still continuing to grow very fast and we are spearheading most of business and development innovations while other industries are playing catchup. Social networking through multiplayer, dlc, digital distribution, cross media interaction, mobile.. It is our to our advantage that we continue to evolve, unfortunately recognition as legitimate professionals, fair labour practices, individual recognition in the media etc are all things that are getting discussed only now.
This is what perplexes me, from one side, the work etiquette in gaming is radically different due to the social structure that surrounds the workforce vs the managerial school of thought which comes from people which have been in business for a while, and on the other, the industry simply grew too fast not having enough time to settle in.
I would say games hit a new singularity every year.
I mean hell, a few years ago, rendering was all the rage and only options to get something to look good, and you had to spend wads of cash and hours in creating everything out of sync in different applications, now a days you have small movie studios, animation indies and even arch and design vet's using game engines to show case their stuff, because you don't need to spend time rendering your SSAO within the scene while having 3 characters with SSS and can create your own materials as you desire.
I just hope we hit our stride before something bad happens.
Replies
mmmm, that's hot.
pics.
I was recently shocked to find out that the country I live in, if you are a full time employee then bonuses are a mandatory part of your contract, twice a year, for many if not all industries.
A friend of mine who is a teacher for a school got a bonus this christmas that was equal to 3 months pay! He was able to move house to a new rented apartment, then he got his summer bonus and went on holiday.
I've only ever worked contract over here and now indie, so bonuses are still the thing of magic pixie dust for me too, but if a company gives bonuses to staff here, they have to do it for all full time employees under the law.
(then again, overtime pay is non-existent here)
Where do you live?
Unless your job makes you happy- in that case, you`re living well (via working). Sadly, all honeymoons come to an end over time
I don`t really have much sympathy for people bitching about crunch. I feel like the workers in the game biz have been gladly bending over and taking it for decades. As a work force we need to STOP doing that. If your upper managment has you working unreasonable hours- then they are unreasonable and need to be treated as such. I feel too often management plans for crunch and they need to learn to plan deadlines with that NOT in mind. Thats only going to happen if we all stop being such nerdly pushovers.
Actually Japan.
This, more than anything else, is the real consequence and danger of the current approach to salaried game development. (and the abuse thereof)
This industry has an extremely hard time maintaining talent. And this trend is getting worse.
flaagan is a perfect example. Game development professionals in all the areas of game development are getting fed up with the system they find themselves in. When they eventually leave, they discover that their skills can get them much higher paying and less stressful jobs in other industries. Most of them never come back to developing games, the benefits to their quality of life are too good to abandon.
The result is that the game industry openly accepts inexperienced youngsters straight out of high school or college, burns through them in three-five years, and then fires them when their salaries get too high. At that point they either seek a higher position in another company, or burn out and leave the industry.
In a way, its kind of a trial-by-fire for first-timers. And those who manage to hang on for any amount of time have the experience necessary to make it just fine in other industries. So you can't say it is especially bad for the individuals themselves, they usually end up landing on their feet.
However, it is bad for the industry itself. You're not going to get more nuanced and sophisticated games out of a constant rookie-chewing machine. Mature, experienced talent is necessary for more mature titles. Failing to cultivate talent is eventually going to bite the game industry in the ass.
Moreover, the industry is probably alienating more experienced talent. I've personally always wanted to work in games. But at this point in my life I probably will never enter the "traditional" game workforce. I would have to take a substantial pay cut, and work ridiculous hours just to get an entry level position at a game company. My current job and benefits are just way more appealing. I might be able to swing indie development on the side eventually, but there's no good reason for me to apply for game jobs now.
I heard that those "bonuses" are actually just withheld pay (in japan)
the attitude of working for a "free" 10 dollar dinner or some candy bars and soda as acceptable for even an hour or 2 of your time extra has got to change.
Compound this with how much the company is making off of your time. It's not just that someone is giving up their time for far less than they're worth, but the company is making even MORE profit.
They give you a 'free' 10 dollar dinner instead of paying you a fair wage for your time, AND they make how much return off of the work you did for essentially free. Why would they ever want to change the way they do business?!
Are there that many options for games industry artists apart from film/TV? It seems as though the software developers and management have the most options for moving to other industries as their transferable skills seem like they are in more demand than ours.
Completely different industry today. The focus has since shifted to "teams", instead of a few individuals making games (which still happens, just not as much).
This whole thread gave me a headache. I'm glad I haven't experienced any of this so far, but sadly I feel like I will eventually.
-m
There were teams in the past as well, they had to have help to make their games. I'm talking about like Directors for movies.
Will Wright for instance had this vision for a game called The Sims, no ones copied it succesfully, no one else seems to understand why its so popular. But thats beside the point he had this idea for a unique game and Directed, and guided it into his vision, which has made a ton of money for EA.
You dont really seem to see that for the COD games or very few mainstream games now. Brendan McNamara I guess would be one, albeit he seems to be an arsehole, but even then he's only been behind one concept. Diretors only seem to be allowed to make one concept and must stick with that.
Quoting because I am curious as well. Software developers will always find it easier to transfer skills to another position, but as Baj Singh pointed out what other avenues are there for 3D artists?
Thanks for the input. However I will say I consistently here bad things about the achvis industry not only from forum users here but CGtalk and a few of my friends as well.
Those old guys started out as indie devs
as far as teaching, I've heard it doesn't pay as well.
so I dont have too much sympathy ATM.
Im sure once I have an actual job that pays and I have to pull crunch ill change my mind.
My school had a lot of people who would teach a 7-10PM class after work. It seemed like a fun way to make some extra money. Certainly being a fulltime teacher doesn't seem to pay well though.
Totally agree there. I had an awesome instructor who taught 5 days at 2 schools, in the mornings, worked at massive black in the afternoon, and also does freelance.
unless the game flops :P
Now I know how these workers must have felt when they called it the "Pyramid Khufu". Even history rolls with the big boys
There are many far more difficult industries which daily manage large and diverse staffing, short or fluctuating deadlines, difficult expectations, scope creep and countless things outside of what this industry deals with.
If they can do it without excessive forced overtime, staff morale issues and consistently under scoping then I really can't see why our industry has an issue...
It's a real pity our industry largely overlooks/allows cowboy development from people who really wouldn't cut it in more professional industries.
Try building a dam, controlling the entire power grid of a country...maybe run the medical infrastructure of France or drive a global shipping fleet which determines if the oil for our industrial backbone is delivered on time..I know, get a man on the fucking moon!!...FFS we make games...its not rocket surgery. :P
Its completely possible to do good work, on time, on budget and without fucking over your staff if you manage your scope, employ talented/passionate people (not a million juniors you can push around) and are honest with your budget and timeline. Our industry just consistently tries to underbid each other trying to please our publishers which just forces the workers to do more with less.
Its not a sustainable process, but sadly we get these guys who are full of it and worse staff who pride themselves on being hardcore, "Man if you can't cut it like me go elsewhere bra" then top it all off we have entry level workers who'd gladly sell a kidney ot get a foot in the door whom all help perpetrate the myth its feasible and acceptable.
bah, douche bags....
Edit: to put it in personal context, I would never knowingly promise something which isn't feasible to my superiors and then turn around and expect my staff to just suck it up and deliver regardless of what it means to their mental health.
That's called being a poor manager (and a douche) and I'd expect to be fired.
How is it any different if a company knowingly undercuts its resources to get a project or over scopes the title with the available resources and expects its staff to take the load?
So glad I've never been directly effected by this sort of mentality.
Actually theres little evidence that the pyramid builders were treated like that. Last I heard they were more like willing recruits whom were fed and treated well.
Free Coffee and Water is nececary to survive any office job,
so this is nothing to get employees with
true...wonder if they will ever say this in the future about the games industry?
interesting collection of links and reads.
http://ilovecrunch.co.uk/
rofl
My personal opinion on why games see so many crunch problems/stories is that they have no history of overtime, so it's very easy to just have people work. If you look at film pre-computer days, it has a history of paying for overtime for people actually working on set doing physical jobs, which makes people accountable for at least trying to avoid it. Many places you have to be approved to work longer hours. However, if it does get to that, at least people get paid time-n-half for over 8 hours and double-time for the "golden hour" and so-called seventh day. Most visual effects studios grew with that standard and just kept it up when the computer fx came online. A person working on a computer is no different then a person working on set(who is getting OT). The places where you do hear horror stories about are mostly boutique style shops that had no history and came to being when the desktop became an affordable tool to work on. Kind of just sprung up out of nowhere bidding low on shows and taking what they could get. Then just expecting people to be happy working on a film so "why pay them over-time?" The studio had no experience doing it.
The game industry is similar to those boutiques that just sprung out of the ground. You have people making games in garages and then later over many years growing into places like EA. You have a handful of people working around the clock at times "back in the day," and it just became normal. The first bad crunch I heard about was Starcraft1, and that was for a month if I remember correctly. Blizzard was much smaller then and I can only assume many of those people made a killing off bonuses. That mentality is carried forward across many studios and years that saw the success, crunch hard because that's what the big boys do.
When you don't have to actually pay people for their time and are working off the "salary" basis, it's very easy to (ask) people to work long hours, even making it sound non-optional. I believe you can't force people to do this, but the consequences for not doing it can be great. You won't look like a team player, and when/if bonuses do roll around, it won't be forgotten who didn't "crunch," possibly even if your work is great and on-time. You may get worse assignments, etc...who knows, every place is different.
The point is game places have a history of not having to account for this time, instead using an arbitrary bonus system, which can be good, but can also leave some high and dry or not even equal to time spent working. When people have to shell out money for "infinity/hours" per week, they are less likely to have the whole crew crunch and instead put more time into making a working pipeline that moves forward and commit to final-ing things. A lot of places seem to take advantage of these free hours, you like your job, it's fun anyway, that's how it's always been done, team spirit mentality.
Not everyone has the option to buck the system, and some do just have to suck it up till they can move on. Not all crunches are bad though. Granted, games are a little bit more fluid then a film, but after all these years, you'd think it could be done in a normal working environment. Of course there are times where a few weeks of crunch helps, but something is out of whack when people are crunching for six months to a year. While it can be done and does, it's not realistic to have these expectations. If people had to pay for this time, they be forced to change. Until they do though, why would they want to?
It is still continuing to grow very fast and we are spearheading most of business and development innovations while other industries are playing catchup. Social networking through multiplayer, dlc, digital distribution, cross media interaction, mobile.. It is our to our advantage that we continue to evolve, unfortunately recognition as legitimate professionals, fair labour practices, individual recognition in the media etc are all things that are getting discussed only now.
less stress = quality of work = fair payments = same time.
This is what perplexes me, from one side, the work etiquette in gaming is radically different due to the social structure that surrounds the workforce vs the managerial school of thought which comes from people which have been in business for a while, and on the other, the industry simply grew too fast not having enough time to settle in.
I would say games hit a new singularity every year.
I mean hell, a few years ago, rendering was all the rage and only options to get something to look good, and you had to spend wads of cash and hours in creating everything out of sync in different applications, now a days you have small movie studios, animation indies and even arch and design vet's using game engines to show case their stuff, because you don't need to spend time rendering your SSAO within the scene while having 3 characters with SSS and can create your own materials as you desire.
I just hope we hit our stride before something bad happens.