"Unpaid crunch deserves no sympathy"
polycounter lvl 9
http://www.develop-online.net/news/38317/Unpaid-crunch-deserves-no-sympathy-Pachter
Extremely "insightful" comments such as:
“If your complaint is you worked overtime and didn’t get paid for it, find another profession".
“I just don’t have a whole lot of sympathy for people who say ‘I worked for such-and-such, and I didn’t get paid, and that’s not fair”.
“The [Team Bondi staff] were asked to work crazy hours, I don’t know anybody in game development who calls it a 9-5 job,” Pachter said.
“So that [complaint] doesn’t really resonate with me.”
Extremely "insightful" comments such as:
“If your complaint is you worked overtime and didn’t get paid for it, find another profession".
“I just don’t have a whole lot of sympathy for people who say ‘I worked for such-and-such, and I didn’t get paid, and that’s not fair”.
“The [Team Bondi staff] were asked to work crazy hours, I don’t know anybody in game development who calls it a 9-5 job,” Pachter said.
“So that [complaint] doesn’t really resonate with me.”
Replies
Or it's a way to get free work out of people. More product at lower cost.
Simple pay people shitty so they can only afford a crowded dump with half a dozen other neck-beards. Also because you pay them so little they can't afford a decent machine at home to actually work on the things they would want to work on and can't land a job somewhere else.
That way they never want to go home...
Also I think we need to reuse that sound effect from level 2.
[ame]
For those of you who hasn't seen it yet, here you go:
[ame]
My solution? Go indie.
Outsiders thinking they know what it's like to work in games.
His opinion shouldn't come as a shock.
Most people think we go into work, play games all day, and miraculously the game is somehow finished in 3 years.
I hear this go indie suggestion alot - isn't the same as starting your own small business which would mean you should have enough money on hand to survive without pay for a few years? (Maybe we need another thread to discuss this - I've got the cash on hand to go a year without pay and it doesn't seem like enough)
Actually I'd be really interested to know more too.
Contract work will net you the exact amount of pay for the hours you work, nothing more nothing less depending on how the game dose. If it is a mega hit and tons of money is made you don't see a dime.
Salary employees will not be paid overtime but will get bonuses/royalties for the game they worked on. These generally are to make up for the fact of the loss of overtime pay and from the people I have talked with far out weigh what they would make from overtime.
If your working at a studio and not in either of those two categories you need to find a new job because you are being taken advantage of.
that's my motto.
20-30k a year is way below industry standard if we're talking USD.
http://gamedeveloper.texterity.com/gamedeveloper/fall2011cg#pg27
44k is the average for
He's supposed to be an analyst or something isnt he? He's paid to predict those sort of things.
It makes me laugh how people like that can get well paid jobs. Corporate nonsense, pretend like you know what you are doing and its easy.
These kind of tactics arent going to pay of in the long run. Even if the workers dont rebel.
EA canceled all bonuses a few months before the launch of Warhammer - regardless on how you view the ultimate success of the game it did have a very good preorder run (broke EA records) and launched very well. They also promised bonuses on high metacritic scores but canceled that as well, we launched in the high 80's-90's.
I don't hold a grudge, there was a series of shitty events that cost EA a bunch of money and then the economy took a nose dive - but don't operate under the assumption that bonuses are guaranteed, that's why they're called a bonus.
yeah, double that number - 40-60k a year
Fucking right. My Dad has always said this, and I quote it, too.
I make more as a buyer for a small tech company than I did working as an fx artist. I definitely miss working on games for a job, but I don't miss the kind of crap work ethic the game industry is full-steaming itself towards / through. I still can't believe the kind of comments / fake grief I got from a few coworkers about having time-consuming projects outside of my job.
There used to be a YouTube compilation of the most idiotic comments that he made, but I can't seem to find it now.
60k ia around what an intermediate will be making in Montreal.
30k is roughly what an Entry Level will be making in Montreal.
20k is Minimum wage.
$9.65/h
40 Hours a week = $386.00
52 Weeks = $20,072
I would hope you're making more than minimum wage.
Should you be asked to do an insane/unhealthy amount of work for a long period of time? Absolutely not. Where does that line get drawn? I'm not sure. I do know that complaining about 1 to 2 months of crunch, at most, once a year, whilst enjoying said benefits, is just silly.
/twocents
1-2 months of crunch in a year is not that bad, but nobody is complaining about 1-2 months of crunch, they are complaining about significantly more than that.
e: Pachter, as an analyst, is essentially the financial sector equivalent of the 'enthusiast press' and is buying the regular line that gamers hear about the game industry - the fact that he admits to being aware of the Team Bondi scandal, and simultaneously says 'they're going to make big bonuses' and 'overtime is expected' while knowing that many of the former employees left due to the overtime and while stating that 'unrelenting overtime is bad' should be a clear indicator that he has his head up his ass.
Aye, the stories that I have heard of the "death march" crunches are irresponsible and unfair. On the flip side, I've also heard/seen many developers complain about the smallest of crunches. Crunch happens. The majority of us knew this getting into this industry. Though, every situation is different.
I'm "lucky" in the fact that the worst crunch I went through was 2 months straight, 10-12 hour days, vacation lockout, weekends and all. That was some bullshit.
I'm pretty sure the free soda, food and trips to the movies is costing the studio waaaaay less than overtime/bonus pay.
because it will get more viral than his usual pach attack.
what makes people pissed is he being insensitive and generalizing many stuff there. >_>
I believe many people got misinformed, naive, never realize that he/she underpaid, or overwork without realizing it. but that doesn't give Pach a right to tell those guys to work somewhere else like (automobile?) or something.
thats real douche.
I agree.
Though, I was shocked to learn that the free sodas at the last studio I worked at was costing the studio 60k a year. We loved ourselves some soder.
Overtime paid, if hourly, is a must. Bonuses are a leisure, never a guarantee. It is shitty when knowledge is dropped that the higher ups pack their wallets while the grunts work the hours and sweat the blood, but... them is the breaks, in any industry.
edit:
I don't know anything about this guy. If what has been said here is true, and he has never worked a day in development, then yeah, he needs to stop talking now.
I've had relatively little crunch compared to a number of my fellow employees by virtue of the projects I've worked on and my position on them, studio staffing desires, etc, but I don't project my personal experiences onto the industry at large. Crunch happens, but there is a marked difference between 60-80 hour weeks for 1-2 months and 60-80 hour weeks for 2-3 months, and it's fucking inhuman to expect 60-80 hour weeks for 3+ months.
Excessive crunch is always, without exception, the fault of poor project management and planning, not the employee working.
Conversely, I've known many people who have had to crunch more than I, with more family and financial responsibilities than I, so I'm not going to sit back and tell them to stand up for their rights and walk out/etc, when I'm not in the same boat, I find that hypocritical.
Finally, to get back to the "Pachter is a tool" bit - the fact that he says "putting bolts on cars all day" is an hourly job, but making videogames is not, when a significant part of Game Art is effectively "putting [crates] on [levels] all day" further underlines his misunderstandings about the industry at large.
e: to clarify, I have no personal complaints about my job (at least not regarding any of these issues:)). Rather, I do not feel this entitles me to belittle or undermine or disregard other people's complaints about their job, or makes theirs less valid in any way.
I can't believe that in 2011 people still take this douchebag seriously.
All he said was that we shouldn't put all the blame on one person, unions are retarded and we shouldn't expect hourly ot pay.
I think he means well and while he seemed insensitive, it's a kind of answer that's hard to get right in a few minutes. Someone will ultimately get their feelings hurt because this subject has been discussed at length and is a very sensitive issue.
He never said death marches are ok. Despite smelling like a typical Rockstar problem it seems that this situation is somewhat unique to team Bondi.
Let's all calm down.
Good idea! I will make a thread about it...
I just don't understand why poor management is such an issue in the game industry. In places like WETA, they basically force your organize your work, so everyone knows which station worked on what during what time on which day and which revision of the file to see.
I'll be darn lucky if any of my friends who supposedly work at big league companies has at least 5 revisions of the scene they were working the same week. It's almost as if bad habits are allowed to roam the fields of gaming scene for no reason other then 'meh, who cares', until said person make lead, and rushes everything because they were too busy drinking koolaid.
Yeah ... this episode managed to prove that he is both extremely biased and totally misinformed. Goatee fail! I wonder if there will be a follow up on this. The guy just proved that he has no knowledge of the field whatsoever ...
You would think after a few years the game industry would be able to tackle the issue of poor management. It's a little embaressing that a bunch of nerds and geeks that can probably do complex math in their heads can some how not make good decisions on time management.
I think I heard something about that. It's a while ago but there waas this blog post about ealouse or something about questionable practices in the mythic studio.
Call me paranoid, but all these "OMG WE HAVE FREE DRINKS!" studios always seem suspect to me. I mean yeah free drinks are nice, but what's the fuzz? Wouldn't it be better to advertise "OMG WE HAVE LITTLE CRUNCH AND PAID OVERTIME"! instead? But guess what, free drinks is all they have. Free drinks my ***. Give me a proper working environment and treat your staff like human beings. Free drinks, games room, etc are just icing on the cake but don't make up if the basics aren't there.
(now this doesn't apply to my current employer. I'm quite happy here, despite the lack of free drinks)
Water, milk, or 100% juice please!
I remember a video from valve saying they had all junk food but then started getting a mix of healthy and junk food just based of what people like, I think that's the better deal.
Start pushing the other way, guys... I don't want to work in an industry that requires me to work so much that i don't have time to LIVE MY FUCKING LIFE.
Also, you guys really shouldn't read about or make judgements about this guy based off of a gaming news site because that's just silly. What businessman in their right mind would read about the flame wars and Pachter nerd rage on destructoid or joystick? The fact that devs and gamers are arguing about the matter is irrelevant when this guy has been a games analyst for YEARS and only now decided to put into words what many have known; the only difference being the angle that this insight is coming from enrages so many.
Developers are the proverbial battered wives to the abusive husband that is the industry and it's stupid operating structure.
yeah but for someone to actually stand up and say they agree with the way the husband treats his wife is highly unethical, perhaps at its core a little bit evil.
I think overtime and crunch should be met with disdain by all parties involved, management should be ashamed that they have to do this to their loyal staff and staff should be disappointed at the state of the industry. That's my opinion anyway.
The problem is that Pachter is being very biased in this video. Mostly against the developers, who in my opinion are the most important workers of a company. At one time he refeers to McNamara as "poor McNamara" and he is blaming a lot of the problems on Rockstar instead of Team Bondi which just shows that he is taking sides and not being very objective. His opinion is that the problems at Team Bondi were either Rockstar's fault or the developer's should just deal with it or leave the industry entirely. He does however seem pretty aware of these bold statements as he makes a joke about his job being in jeopardy near the end of the video.
Why would he not be reading the feedback give on websites? How else will they know how well they're doing if they won't read feedbacks/reviews etc? Having a commentary section in given sites is just stupid if you're not gonna use it to your benifit.
EDIT: Actually it sounds more like that you should pay the company for getting the opportunity to work on games. :P
thats as far as i got
i raged in your mouth when you were sleeping sorry about that :poly122: