Haha, no kidding. I don't know if many other Polycounters would recognize the name, but I grew up a huge Braves fan and saw him play all the time It's awesome how you and your brothers are each on such different career paths, that ought to make conversation around the holiday dinner table pretty interesting!
Every year that you are in this industry, you understand a little more the value of having a life outside of the office. It's a pattern ... young guys and new hires want to live at the office. Older guys want to go home on the weekend hit the beach. It's not that one loves their job more than the other, it's just that the older guys have a greater appreciation of the larger picture. Work isn't everything.
Every year that you are in this industry, you understand a little more the value of having a life outside of the office. It's a pattern ... young guys and new hires want to live at the office. Older guys want to go home on the weekend hit the beach. It's not that one loves their job more than the other, it's just that the older guys have a greater appreciation of the larger picture. Work isn't everything.
there is nothing cool in working like crazy, I know that pretty well, I ve been on a crazy schedule the last 2 years freelance, but thats over now. Money cant buy freedom, and no Mather how much money, project prestige, etc someone will offer me I ll ever trade it for going surfing, rock climbing in nature, meeting new people outside, traveling, meeting a new girl etc, etc...
I know we humans are easily obsessive animals. And we tend to work our asses hard, specially if we like the project we are in and we believe in it.
But that is not enough reason to give up life(in part) for xyz company/project. I understand some extra hours concessions when starting and on some high demanding occasions, as its a hard environment, and yeah we like what we do, otherwise we'll be doing something else. But from there to making it a lifetime career pattern NO F$%# WAY!! well thats my opinion.
there is nothing cool in working like crazy, I know that pretty well, I ve been on a crazy schedule the last 2 years freelance, but thats over now. Money cant buy freedom, and no Mather how much money, project prestige, etc someone will offer me I ll ever trade it for going surfing, rock climbing in nature, meeting new people outside, traveling, meeting a new girl etc, etc...
True. But you're freelance building up something, so you have to have some reward from doing it right? A little removed from inner-office politics, but still an email away from the BS :P. Freelancing is a monster, even for the right client.
I remember what my friend said before I took on that digitizing job. "Shifts like this can change someone" and it does. I recall always having to say No, Can't make it tonight, Work is tight" etc to friends and my girlfriend, and I'm sure it dented my relationships to my friends and girlfriend.
Value your free time while you're still young as when you get older you'll rarely see it again. My dad said to me, wise words.
That's not to say that a little stress here and there is not needed, you need to be able to deal with such crunches. I think a new question or even new thread to post is "How do YOU deal with Crunch time?" or "Favourite Crunch Time moments" to weigh out pros and cons during that hellish moon cycle.
yeah man, I dont say I dont like what I've done, hell I ve been deep inside working like crazy because of my own will, trying to get better, and because I love cg. And yes I ve failed and also succeeded, working alone sometimes can get pretty frustrating but at the same time very self rewarding. Yes dealing with clients its another story... but well thats something you learn to manage with time I think, you get more confidence, knowing when to do extra concessions or not.
I guess the clue (as in aaaanything in life) is balance working/living thats it. Enough of both to keep you fueled to keep learning,creating and also experiencing new things in life.
I am starting a new fulltime job this Monday btw, I am very excited for this awesome opportunity.... hope things go good!!!
yeah man, I dont say I dont like what I've done, hell I ve been deep inside working like crazy because of my own will, trying to get better, and because I love cg. And yes I ve failed and also succeeded, working alone sometimes can get pretty frustrating but at the same time very self rewarding. Yes dealing with clients its another story... but well thats something you learn to manage with time I think, you get more confidence, knowing when to do extra concessions or not.
I guess the clue (as in aaaanything in life) is balance working/living thats it. Enough of both to keep you fueled to keep learning,creating and also experiencing new things in life.
I am starting a new fulltime job this Monday btw, I am very excited for this awesome opportunity.... hope things go good!!!
Congratulations! Things will go well if you desire it enough to be
Playing the dark advocate here, and not bashing studios or people but let me just put this out there and people correct me if I'm wrong.
If some blokes (we all know who they are and you guys know who you are) worked as hard as they visited Facebook, watched youtube, or played flash games, we wouldn't have to be in this place much of the time.
I mean most jobs ask from you 8 hours of work, period, you put in those hours as a working person. In games its much harder because your product is on a schedule with share-holders name on it, and your work can be measured most of the time.
We can all admit to one thing, CGI is a specialized skillset, it's all about knowing workflows, tools, being open to new things and experimenting with them, always changing the way things work, but all this requires MASSIVE amounts of input, like any other job, but the thing that gets it is the skillset required.
If you don't put in those solid hours, you play catchup. Moving a single vertice and going on youtube, checking your FB, or shuffling your tune list for the next 15 minutes is not good working etiquette. I put in a solid 8 hours (not counting any cleanups I have to do in lab before packing up, such as renaming my models and files to proper names so next time I open the scene I know where I was, even a year from now), yet I see plenty of people around me going for a smoke break every 5 minutes and complaining when during baking, something doesn't work...or how when they move a single vertice, they feel the need to play a random Flash games for hours or several of them from newgrounds.com, which is time killer at worst.
I understand we need to treated better, and sometimes, we get frustrated and yes, we need to stand up for ourselves and work on humane hours, but why do I get the feeling MANY people simply end up in this crunch time mess because someone down the pipeline was too busy wanking off to an Exxotica Expo instead of compiling the proper hash file for the SVN or finishing off those last two bakes?
It's isn't so much as "Stop Bitching and Make Art" as it is "Just put in the hours and go home to your wife and kids", not seeing your friends of children because you had to debate the idea of God and Religion under a Philosoraptor post in FaceBook.
One thing I'm curious about, is related to what you have said there, Ace.
When you read stories of these people working crazy 14 hour days for weeks on end, are they really 'working' for those hours, or are they scratching their arse for 7 cumulative hours and working for the other 7?
I remember hearing a little quote from someone a while ago, who said he used to work like 12 hour days when he was freelance, but then reevaluated what he actually did and decided he would strictly do 8 hour days. Turns out he got more done in the 8 hour days than he did in the 12 hour days because he found the strict 8 hour plan encouraged him to not procrastinate.
Do all places offer internet at their workstations? I've worked at a few vfx shops (tv and movies) that limit the internet connection to only a few select pc's (for security reasons) but i'm not sure how game studios are.
Nope, I really don't (want to work in the 3D industry). I'm actively looking for a way to get out because it's exploitative, ruined my interest in working on games, and I'm tired of working for incompetent management.
I'll still do 3d as a hobby, and I'm making small games with my husband (he's a programmer) but at this point I'd rather be watering plants in a garden center for (icelandic) minimum wage than working a 3D desk job anymore.
Do all places offer internet at their workstations? I've worked at a few vfx shops (tv and movies) that limit the internet connection to only a few select pc's (for security reasons) but i'm not sure how game studios are.
I've always held the opinion that if you need to limit your employees access to the internet to get them to work, you have the wrong employees.
First industry "job" I had was as an intern. Worked 10-12 hour days, every day for 6 months. Upon completing the internship, I was hired. About 1 week in, the project got canned, and I did too.
I was pissed at the time, but looking back, I'm kinda glad. Working as hard as I was, for as long as I was, was absolutely detrimental to my health, relationship and well being.
I'm no longer in the gaming industry, but I am still doing 3D for a living (mostly viz work). I still do wonder about working in gaming again, but my first experience just left a bad taste in my mouth, and I'm satisfied enough with where I am.
Nope, I really don't (want to work in the 3D industry). I'm actively looking for a way to get out because it's exploitative, ruined my interest in working on games, and I'm tired of working for incompetent management.
I'll still do 3d as a hobby, and I'm making small games with my husband (he's a programmer) but at this point I'd rather be watering plants in a garden center for (icelandic) minimum wage than working a 3D desk job anymore.
What happened to the "money_mouth" attitude? I've had that article since last year and it's been an inspiration ever since.
Well, for one, I'm following the advice just in a different field (trying to start my own bakery) but I'm still making small games with my husband, but we get to do the design. It's on our own time and money, so it's pretty consistent with what I wrote in that article. (I don't like how established companies are doing things, so I am using my own time and money to try my own games).
your article has been one of my inspiration to become game artist.
Go on and try it then. There are plenty of people working in the industry that like it. I'm just giving my personal opinion. I love making games. I hate how the industry insists on doing it. If I can get a small thing going with my husband and I, I'll be happy to continue. Even with smaller amount of work we can put out as a two man team, I get to do design and dictate art style, which is incredibly fulfilling, even if the games never make a profit.
I don't know about other studios but the one place I worked at those that weren't actually working and getting work done got fired sooner or later.
When was working freelance I was either starving with no work to do thus lots of free time or I was booked solid working 16 hours a day or more, not very much in between.
Working 7,5 hours a day here as an 3d CAD intern... Some crunch once in a while but my boss makes sure that I get paid for my overtime which is 200% of my normal rate. So yeah, so far I like working in the 3d industry.
If it's just because of this video, I don't think you should stop.
For every thing you can imagine, there is a positive and a negative side, so does with the game art jobs and any job you want to pick.
The only way for you to get a job that doesn't mess with your personal life is a job that pays accordingly, and at least for me, there is not one of this kind that would bring you as much fun as game art, so you could say "I'm poor but happy" because I don't think money is the reason to work in this industry.
You know, I'm not a game artist already, I'm a bank teller but what I can tell you is that I've never felt the way I fell when I think I'm on 2013 waking up to work and thinking "Ok, today I must finish Marieta, let's get up already".
Nowadays I wake up and think "shit, I have to work again", and actually my work journey is 6 hours a day, with a max of two paid extra hours daily. For this reason I'm quitting my job next year as soon as I get the money I need to stay home studying art.
Anyway I'm sorry for my English, since I'm Brazilian and just finished my English course, fell free to correct me if you find any mistakes :poly122:
Haha, I was working in a bank for a few year with about 6 hours commute a day too. It was the WORST phase of my life. I preferred packing shelves in a grocery store by a large margin. I pity you greatly.
Keep working towards your goals. You might end up busting your ass far harder than you would at a bank, but at least you won't hate every second of it.
Haha, I was working in a bank for a few year with about 6 hours commute a day too. It was the WORST phase of my life. I preferred packing shelves in a grocery store by a large margin. I pity you greatly.
Keep working towards your goals. You might end up busting your ass far harder than you would at a bank, but at least you won't hate every second of it.
i would like to hear more of this bakery business, ben. i am intrigued!
Well... since you asked...
It will be subscription based, there are other products using this model in the US (frozen meat, veggies, candles, etc). You sign up via a website, and you're charged by CC monthly till you cancel. You specify the portion size, 1/4, 1/2, whole or multiples, and your delivery day, wed or sat, and then each week on that day you get that portion of the weekly item delivered to your door. Each week it's something new, but you get a notification of what it will be, and if it's not to your preference, there is a failsafe plan B item that I keep batches of frozen just for this purpose.
This allows me to work out of a smaller space that doesn't need the high rent of a central location, and keeps me from needing staff or a large startup loan. I'm doing a 2 month friends/family beta test out of my own kitchen (which would never pass a health inspection, I have a dog) and depending on the interest level (best case scenario being my friend's friends begging them to be allowed on the list) I'll invest in a rented space, some industrial equipment, and open it to the general public.
I'll post the website when I have it finished. I'm doing package design now (all packages are folded brown butcher paper attached with hemp twine) logos, website, photography of the goods, perfecting recipes, and Agust is making me a program that tracks raw ingredient prices and total cost per recipe batch, and will auto update if ingredients increase in cost.
My unique selling points are the home delivery, and the recipes are the dense and moist american style baked goods which we just don't have here in Iceland. This would be harder to do in Germany where they have amazing bakeries, but here they are kind of lackluster, and the one good one is super expensive.
Stuff like this:
butterscotch bread pudding
peanut butter pie with dark chocolate top
Tri-chip cookies (butterscotch, white chocolate, dark chocolate)
+1. I have a number of FaceBook friends who are in the industry, admittedly some QA, but a few artists and their status usually consists of 'Working all weekend again', or '10 o clock and I just got home'. One guy started on 11 hour days in his first week. Some even post that stuff in a positive manner, it's like they've been brainwashed or something.
We're talking known studios here too not little indie startups.
From what I've read, some of the vets manage to balance a pretty healthy work/home life ratio (because they've got the nuts/experience to stand up to stupid demands?), but some of the new guys are working like slaves and seem to justify it because they love it so much... I guess it's a personal thing, if you don't have a girl to come home to, kids to look after, or if you are just obsessed with your job, then it's manageable.
I quit trying to get into the industry about a year ago, refocused my interests and never looked back. Interestingly I'm earning more than I would be in the games industry, and I still get to do a 'creative' job, and get home in time for dinner with my partner. I also find myself enjoying gaming more than I did because I'm just playing the damn game rather than looking at every last prop thinking 'oooh that looks pretty, I wonder how they got such a clean bake on that'.
I also know of a guy from my local college who worked in the industry for about 15 years, back in the early 2000's , and he quit when he got a wife and kids and became a teacher on a game dev course, he also has never looked back.
Any 3D I do now is just for fun, and my art has improved too when there's no 'goal' so to speak.
*Cue industry grunts defending their 14 hour days because 'they love their job'.*
be happy your work doesnt run out.
im doing reverse crunch now
(noone here to give new tasks, so stretch the remaining until there is really nothing more to do and help others with their problems)
its the most frustrating thing to do at work
Well I was in a completely different industry a few years back and was lured to 3D because of my love of games.
I studied at a private institution that charged a fortune, but fortunately I had the money to pay for it.
I graduated and found myself working at the same place I did my internship at, an arch vis kind of place.
I was working with a great bunch of guys and it was close to my house, but the money was absolute rubbish and it was assumed that you would work overtime for nothing.
I quit there with no job lined up (we all quit around the same time).
A relative (connections are important!) got me in the door in the TV industry. The hours are amazing (once the news finishes it's home time), the money is amazing, the work is interesting and the people and place are awesome... It's only freelance work at the moment, but if I could even get 3 or 4 days a week every week then I would be doing quite well.
The moral of the story is not to give up. There are plenty of jobs out there for people with the skills that you have, but you might need to look in different places (and you might like them better
It's funny to see how the mentality is different from a US employer to a danish one.. or atleast mine.. I just came back from a 4 day trip to Rome with everything except lunch payed for by my company because we had hit he goal of a 73% of the hours we registrer can be billed to an costumer. I guess it's also because many of the people working in denmark is in unions that makes sure you're not underpaid unless you choose to be so.
It's funny to see how the mentality is different from a US employer to a danish one.. or atleast mine.. I just came back from a 4 day trip to Rome with everything except lunch payed for by my company because we had hit he goal of a 73% of the hours we registrer can be billed to an costumer. I guess it's also because many of the people working in denmark is in unions that makes sure you're not underpaid unless you choose to be so.
The mentality is no different. Those danish employers would be doing the stuff the US ones are if they could get away with it. Just look at how Ikea Danville, VA treats their employees compared to Ikea in Sweden. (keep in mind I'm not conflating denmark and sweden).
The last part of your post is why it's better in Scandinavia. Undestroyed unions, functioning labor laws and workers rights, mandated vacation, overtime, healthcare decoupled from employment, etc.
Replies
well... that is effin awesome
Haha, no kidding. I don't know if many other Polycounters would recognize the name, but I grew up a huge Braves fan and saw him play all the time
/ thread
i always thought its entertainment industry os show biz
does it have todo with bees with D Cups?
I know we humans are easily obsessive animals. And we tend to work our asses hard, specially if we like the project we are in and we believe in it.
But that is not enough reason to give up life(in part) for xyz company/project. I understand some extra hours concessions when starting and on some high demanding occasions, as its a hard environment, and yeah we like what we do, otherwise we'll be doing something else. But from there to making it a lifetime career pattern NO F$%# WAY!! well thats my opinion.
Value your free time while you're still young as when you get older you'll rarely see it again. My dad said to me, wise words.
That's not to say that a little stress here and there is not needed, you need to be able to deal with such crunches. I think a new question or even new thread to post is "How do YOU deal with Crunch time?" or "Favourite Crunch Time moments" to weigh out pros and cons during that hellish moon cycle.
I guess the clue (as in aaaanything in life) is balance working/living thats it. Enough of both to keep you fueled to keep learning,creating and also experiencing new things in life.
I am starting a new fulltime job this Monday btw, I am very excited for this awesome opportunity.... hope things go good!!!
Congratulations! Things will go well if you desire it enough to be
If some blokes (we all know who they are and you guys know who you are) worked as hard as they visited Facebook, watched youtube, or played flash games, we wouldn't have to be in this place much of the time.
I mean most jobs ask from you 8 hours of work, period, you put in those hours as a working person. In games its much harder because your product is on a schedule with share-holders name on it, and your work can be measured most of the time.
We can all admit to one thing, CGI is a specialized skillset, it's all about knowing workflows, tools, being open to new things and experimenting with them, always changing the way things work, but all this requires MASSIVE amounts of input, like any other job, but the thing that gets it is the skillset required.
If you don't put in those solid hours, you play catchup. Moving a single vertice and going on youtube, checking your FB, or shuffling your tune list for the next 15 minutes is not good working etiquette. I put in a solid 8 hours (not counting any cleanups I have to do in lab before packing up, such as renaming my models and files to proper names so next time I open the scene I know where I was, even a year from now), yet I see plenty of people around me going for a smoke break every 5 minutes and complaining when during baking, something doesn't work...or how when they move a single vertice, they feel the need to play a random Flash games for hours or several of them from newgrounds.com, which is time killer at worst.
I understand we need to treated better, and sometimes, we get frustrated and yes, we need to stand up for ourselves and work on humane hours, but why do I get the feeling MANY people simply end up in this crunch time mess because someone down the pipeline was too busy wanking off to an Exxotica Expo instead of compiling the proper hash file for the SVN or finishing off those last two bakes?
It's isn't so much as "Stop Bitching and Make Art" as it is "Just put in the hours and go home to your wife and kids", not seeing your friends of children because you had to debate the idea of God and Religion under a Philosoraptor post in FaceBook.
When you read stories of these people working crazy 14 hour days for weeks on end, are they really 'working' for those hours, or are they scratching their arse for 7 cumulative hours and working for the other 7?
I remember hearing a little quote from someone a while ago, who said he used to work like 12 hour days when he was freelance, but then reevaluated what he actually did and decided he would strictly do 8 hour days. Turns out he got more done in the 8 hour days than he did in the 12 hour days because he found the strict 8 hour plan encouraged him to not procrastinate.
I'll still do 3d as a hobby, and I'm making small games with my husband (he's a programmer) but at this point I'd rather be watering plants in a garden center for (icelandic) minimum wage than working a 3D desk job anymore.
I was pissed at the time, but looking back, I'm kinda glad. Working as hard as I was, for as long as I was, was absolutely detrimental to my health, relationship and well being.
I'm no longer in the gaming industry, but I am still doing 3D for a living (mostly viz work). I still do wonder about working in gaming again, but my first experience just left a bad taste in my mouth, and I'm satisfied enough with where I am.
Why assume that it is like that everywhere?
You need to find a better studio.
I think maybe he knows what he's talking about better than you
http://www.poopinmymouth.com/resume-contact/resume.htm
your article has been one of my inspiration to become game artist.
Well, for one, I'm following the advice just in a different field (trying to start my own bakery) but I'm still making small games with my husband, but we get to do the design. It's on our own time and money, so it's pretty consistent with what I wrote in that article. (I don't like how established companies are doing things, so I am using my own time and money to try my own games).
Go on and try it then. There are plenty of people working in the industry that like it. I'm just giving my personal opinion. I love making games. I hate how the industry insists on doing it. If I can get a small thing going with my husband and I, I'll be happy to continue. Even with smaller amount of work we can put out as a two man team, I get to do design and dictate art style, which is incredibly fulfilling, even if the games never make a profit.
I don't know about other studios but the one place I worked at those that weren't actually working and getting work done got fired sooner or later.
When was working freelance I was either starving with no work to do thus lots of free time or I was booked solid working 16 hours a day or more, not very much in between.
For every thing you can imagine, there is a positive and a negative side, so does with the game art jobs and any job you want to pick.
The only way for you to get a job that doesn't mess with your personal life is a job that pays accordingly, and at least for me, there is not one of this kind that would bring you as much fun as game art, so you could say "I'm poor but happy" because I don't think money is the reason to work in this industry.
You know, I'm not a game artist already, I'm a bank teller but what I can tell you is that I've never felt the way I fell when I think I'm on 2013 waking up to work and thinking "Ok, today I must finish Marieta, let's get up already".
Nowadays I wake up and think "shit, I have to work again", and actually my work journey is 6 hours a day, with a max of two paid extra hours daily. For this reason I'm quitting my job next year as soon as I get the money I need to stay home studying art.
Anyway I'm sorry for my English, since I'm Brazilian and just finished my English course, fell free to correct me if you find any mistakes :poly122:
Keep working towards your goals. You might end up busting your ass far harder than you would at a bank, but at least you won't hate every second of it.
I'm following you then! :poly142:
i would like to hear more of this bakery business, ben. i am intrigued!
For raking in the dough, yo!:poly136:
Best of luck poops.:thumbup:
Well... since you asked...
It will be subscription based, there are other products using this model in the US (frozen meat, veggies, candles, etc). You sign up via a website, and you're charged by CC monthly till you cancel. You specify the portion size, 1/4, 1/2, whole or multiples, and your delivery day, wed or sat, and then each week on that day you get that portion of the weekly item delivered to your door. Each week it's something new, but you get a notification of what it will be, and if it's not to your preference, there is a failsafe plan B item that I keep batches of frozen just for this purpose.
This allows me to work out of a smaller space that doesn't need the high rent of a central location, and keeps me from needing staff or a large startup loan. I'm doing a 2 month friends/family beta test out of my own kitchen (which would never pass a health inspection, I have a dog) and depending on the interest level (best case scenario being my friend's friends begging them to be allowed on the list) I'll invest in a rented space, some industrial equipment, and open it to the general public.
I'll post the website when I have it finished. I'm doing package design now (all packages are folded brown butcher paper attached with hemp twine) logos, website, photography of the goods, perfecting recipes, and Agust is making me a program that tracks raw ingredient prices and total cost per recipe batch, and will auto update if ingredients increase in cost.
My unique selling points are the home delivery, and the recipes are the dense and moist american style baked goods which we just don't have here in Iceland. This would be harder to do in Germany where they have amazing bakeries, but here they are kind of lackluster, and the one good one is super expensive.
Stuff like this:
butterscotch bread pudding
peanut butter pie with dark chocolate top
Tri-chip cookies (butterscotch, white chocolate, dark chocolate)
chocolate lava cakes with peanut butter mousse
/end derail
lol what a card
im doing reverse crunch now
(noone here to give new tasks, so stretch the remaining until there is really nothing more to do and help others with their problems)
its the most frustrating thing to do at work
I studied at a private institution that charged a fortune, but fortunately I had the money to pay for it.
I graduated and found myself working at the same place I did my internship at, an arch vis kind of place.
I was working with a great bunch of guys and it was close to my house, but the money was absolute rubbish and it was assumed that you would work overtime for nothing.
I quit there with no job lined up (we all quit around the same time).
A relative (connections are important!) got me in the door in the TV industry. The hours are amazing (once the news finishes it's home time), the money is amazing, the work is interesting and the people and place are awesome... It's only freelance work at the moment, but if I could even get 3 or 4 days a week every week then I would be doing quite well.
The moral of the story is not to give up. There are plenty of jobs out there for people with the skills that you have, but you might need to look in different places (and you might like them better
pretty clever business model, too. i hope everything works out!
The mentality is no different. Those danish employers would be doing the stuff the US ones are if they could get away with it. Just look at how Ikea Danville, VA treats their employees compared to Ikea in Sweden. (keep in mind I'm not conflating denmark and sweden).
The last part of your post is why it's better in Scandinavia. Undestroyed unions, functioning labor laws and workers rights, mandated vacation, overtime, healthcare decoupled from employment, etc.