Yea, I didn't really mean to single you out. I was just keying on something you said at the very end of you post that seems to echo around a lot in these discussions. To put it in context, this was the rest of that paragraph ..
Whenever threads about degrees crop up it always ends up polarised, with very few without degrees saying the piece of paper is a good idea, and very few with the piece of paper or in the process of getting it saying that they wish they hadn't taken that step. And most of the time, the latter party feel that way because they expected to be babysat and spoonfed for four years.
I was just referencing that last line where you generalized those who post in favor of degrees. I posted earlier in this thread in relative favor of my college education, and just wanted to say that I was not expectign to be babysat or spoonfed.
Now I didn't mean to come off as prickish as I did. And you're completely correct in asserting that there are people who go to school that are for whatever reason lacking motivation, but i do find it annoying that the word 'most' is put in there. I do feel that this is a common attitude held by a lot of people, which I think is pretty unfair.
This isn't me being mad at you or anything more-so put off by the stereotype.
Haha I think we got mixed up Robat I was saying that people that give out about their experience in college, often expected to have everything handed to them on a silver platter, without having to put the work in. No worries.
Although you have a point too, dfacto... but in my experience, the vast majority that have been through college and bitch about it just aren't up to scratch, and it isn't the colleges fault, it's theirs.
Paying 100k for sex, parties and networking sounds steep as hell. The idea is to pay that for otherwise unattainable knowledge and skills, not social affairs.
It of course is not just sex, drugs and rock and roll for 100k. The comment was just that college is more then just the knowledge you learn and the degree you get. Its also about finding yourself, truly finding out what you want to do in life and who you really are. The people you meet, the relationships you have, the things you do.
I would have never known about Polycount without college, I would never have had the discipline to sit and work on a project to make it the best it could be while hitting a dead line. I would never have known the bar I should be hitting and insider tips from teachers, friends and industry professionals.
College will always be about what you make of it. What you put in, you get out.
For my 100k my first job in the industry was working for Bungie, one of my dream company's, working on Halo Reach, the last Bungie Halo game. Then 2 months after leaving there I got to go to another one of my dream company's here at Naughty Dog working on Uncharted 3.
Although you have a point too, dfacto... but in my experience, the vast majority that have been through college and bitch about it just aren't up to scratch, and it isn't the colleges fault, it's theirs.
Of course, you get that type of person everywhere. But I've heard it from so many good artists too. Teachers who are a decade behind the digital scene, teachers who just aren't good enough in their specialty, teachers who don't care, apathetic pacing and structure in general, admission of people who aren't the least bit serious yet still get good grades (not barely passing, but good) with trash work, etc etc. This would be all well and good if the tuition fees weren't so high (and always rising of course).
I can understand it if art was a "mafia" type of education like law, or medicine, where your diploma opens a door to a professional world that would otherwise be legally closed to you, but it isn't. At this point it's even optional and you can get the same bang for your buck with self-education.
People say it was worth it because it was an "experience" and they networked, but there are people going into serious debt for college educations that cost far more than they're worth. Just because you don't regret it doesn't make it a good deal. It's a rip-off, and it's a rip-off which is coming to characterize all college level education in the states.
(For reference, you can get a top shelf medical education in Europe for under 100k over 6 years, and a medical degree is far more precious than an art degree, both upon graduation, and over a lifetime.)
It of course is not just sex, drugs and rock and roll for 100k. The comment was just that college is more then just the knowledge you learn and the degree you get. Its also about finding yourself, truly finding out what you want to do in life and who you really are. The people you meet, the relationships you have, the things you do.
I would have never known about Polycount without college, I would never have had the discipline to sit and work on a project to make it the best it could be while hitting a dead line. I would never have known the bar I should be hitting and insider tips from teachers, friends and industry professionals.
College will always be about what you make of it. What you put in, you get out.
For my 100k my first job in the industry was working for Bungie, one of my dream company's, working on Halo Reach, the last Bungie Halo game. Then 2 months after leaving there I got to go to another one of my dream company's here at Naughty Dog working on Uncharted 3.
Soooooooo yeah....100grand WELL SPENT.
What if you paid 50k and just learned the tools and unwraveled a bunch of lies the school was pitching? That's about what I did, it cost me time and money.
Although I had the same idea as Robat going in, that I just needed time for uninterrupted practice. Sure sucks to spend 50k on stuff I already knew and just hear people talk about how good they are yet never deliver.
It's the best business ever though, because no one will ever tell anyone to quit school.
I totally get it though, I wanted the Autocon experience and would probably have the same views had I gone to a better school. But man it can get bad, I can only imagine how many young people are lost or fucked over because of my school.
It of course is not just sex, drugs and rock and roll for 100k. The comment was just that college is more then just the knowledge you learn and the degree you get. Its also about finding yourself, truly finding out what you want to do in life and who you really are. The people you meet, the relationships you have, the things you do.
I would have never known about Polycount without college, I would never have had the discipline to sit and work on a project to make it the best it could be while hitting a dead line. I would never have known the bar I should be hitting and insider tips from teachers, friends and industry professionals.
College will always be about what you make of it. What you put in, you get out.
For my 100k my first job in the industry was working for Bungie, one of my dream company's, working on Halo Reach, the last Bungie Halo game. Then 2 months after leaving there I got to go to another one of my dream company's here at Naughty Dog working on Uncharted 3.
Soooooooo yeah....100grand WELL SPENT.
Nice story but the numbers are going up here... 40K, 80K, now 100K... did your course really cost that much Auto?
you know, I've gone back and forth between whether school was worth it, or if I really got that much more out of going than if I just would've stayed home, but I ultimately always come back to the same conclusion...
I can't see myself being where I am now, as a person, or artist, had I not made the decision to go to school. I've always looked at it this way - I wasn't going to school for instruction, or even contacts. I was granting myself the opportunity to have (in a perfect world..) uninterrupted practice for 3-4 YEARS. I know I personally will never have that opportunity again, and would never have been able to even come close to anything similar if I was back home working some janitorial job while doing game art in my spare time.
I know this is just my personal situation, but I needed to go to school. I have been working as a street vendor for a carnival for 8 years before I left for college, and I just flat out needed a fresh start. School first taught me how to learn, and then how to teach myself. I met some awesome people, and gained a TON of life experiences through working various jobs along the way.
Now, the proposal in the OP that I could have dropped out midway through and still been just as successful if not more so, I think is very plausible. I stopped learning things directly from my teachers relatively early on (which sucks), and sometimes indeed felt as though I were wasting my time. If I were offered an industry job during school, I would almost certainly drop out, as I know i would learn heaps more in the workplace. but I wasn't, so no sweat, more practice for when I actually have to enter the job market.
I don't think the idea of starting my own business would be something enticing enough to lure me out tho. I know just enough about business to know that I would never want to own one
For me the bottom line is, I disagree when people just flat out make generalizations about 'school' as if they are all the same as are the people who attend them. They're certainly not all bad, and its all on the student's shoulders to learn in whatever environment they have placed themselves in. If they feel that their time is being wasted, then quit... if there are still things you can get out of it, then stay in. Its that simple
I assure you, if all you're looking for is 4 years of uninterupted practice, there's far cheaper ways of getting that outside of a university.
Nowadays, people really need to take a good, hard look at university as an investment. Asking the simple question, "Do I need a degree to be in this field?" first and foremost. If it's medicine, law, engineering and the like then it's a no-brainer. Buckle down, go to the best school you can, get the best grades you can, and things will undoubtedly work out for you in the future.
But a liberal arts degree? It's a waste. Especially in this day and age. The people telling you otherwise are either ones from a different generation or they're the very institutes looking to sell you one.
If you do not have the personal drive to work at it, to practice, to seek out ways of improving no college is going to instill that in you. If you do, then you already have what you need. The internet alone is a wealth of knowledge and resources that I would have loved to have access to during my college years (fuck, that's a depressing thought). And it's essentially free. There are hundreds of online communities where you can make more meaningful connections than you could in college, get more relevant constructive criticism, be more in touch with what's happening right now in the game industry (hint, you're on one).
So yeah, I have no doubt that you learned something on your 4 years of college, that you got better. But did you really get better than you would through 4 years of independant study and taking individual classes? Not to belittle your accomplishments, but sounds to me like you were motivated and dedicated enough to succeed in spite of college, not because of it.
Well in honesty I could have taken a game development course in college, I'd just be finishing the second year now if I did with 1 year left to go.
But I learned everything I needed and more than the college would teach me on my own. I can make a game single handedly, story, physics, graphics (reason why I am here is to get better with graphics).
With the Internet existing and all, colleges and schools need to beef up on what their teaching.
I have a friend who's in the game development course, it covers how to make basic models (hideous things) how to animate a model, how to move it, basic physics and he has yet to even scratch deferred rendering, custom controllers, working with raw graphics API (like D3D), complex AI, self correcting path finding, etc.
It seems the internet allows for faster learning than college in Game development, and I'm willing to bet there are other subjects that act similarly.
But a liberal arts degree? It's a waste. Especially in this day and age. The people telling you otherwise are either ones from a different generation or they're the very institutes looking to sell you one.
The phrase 'liberal arts' is a big umbrella, and it covers a whole shitload of fields that you won't have an easy time starting a career in without a degree. Psychology, PoliSci, lots of maths, journalism, life sciences, etc.
About the only fields in which degrees are a 'waste', IMO, would be purely creative ones - some visual arts, music, creative writing, performing art. I work at an ad agency with about 50 designers (graphic or interactive), and I'd guess maybe 80% of them have degrees. You can get hired in without one, but not without a solid work history or something to make up for the lack of education.
The phrase 'liberal arts' is a big umbrella, and it covers a whole shitload of fields that you won't have an easy time starting a career in without a degree. Psychology, PoliSci, lots of maths, journalism, life sciences, etc.
About the only fields in which degrees are a 'waste', IMO, would be purely creative ones - some visual arts, music, creative writing, performing art. I work at an ad agency with about 50 designers (graphic or interactive), and I'd guess maybe 80% of them have degrees. You can get hired in without one, but not without a solid work history or something to make up for the lack of education.
If you were looking at a degree in psychology or math for career prospects, I think the first question of "Do I need this to get a job?" would cover you before you reached the point where I say it's a waste. Those people have already tuned out. If not, then let me add "Why are you still here getting insulted about your liberal arts degree. You should be off studying damnit! Can't you read?!?"
Replies
I was just referencing that last line where you generalized those who post in favor of degrees. I posted earlier in this thread in relative favor of my college education, and just wanted to say that I was not expectign to be babysat or spoonfed.
Now I didn't mean to come off as prickish as I did. And you're completely correct in asserting that there are people who go to school that are for whatever reason lacking motivation, but i do find it annoying that the word 'most' is put in there. I do feel that this is a common attitude held by a lot of people, which I think is pretty unfair.
This isn't me being mad at you or anything
Friends?
Although you have a point too, dfacto... but in my experience, the vast majority that have been through college and bitch about it just aren't up to scratch, and it isn't the colleges fault, it's theirs.
Mah bad :poly136:
//edit: tho, there is still a stereotype out there portraying what I imagined Andreas to have said... and it sucks.
It of course is not just sex, drugs and rock and roll for 100k. The comment was just that college is more then just the knowledge you learn and the degree you get. Its also about finding yourself, truly finding out what you want to do in life and who you really are. The people you meet, the relationships you have, the things you do.
I would have never known about Polycount without college, I would never have had the discipline to sit and work on a project to make it the best it could be while hitting a dead line. I would never have known the bar I should be hitting and insider tips from teachers, friends and industry professionals.
College will always be about what you make of it. What you put in, you get out.
For my 100k my first job in the industry was working for Bungie, one of my dream company's, working on Halo Reach, the last Bungie Halo game. Then 2 months after leaving there I got to go to another one of my dream company's here at Naughty Dog working on Uncharted 3.
Soooooooo yeah....100grand WELL SPENT.
Just had to prove 4 years experience in my field. Actually, it was ok with just 2. That was 10 years ago.
Renewed my visa about 4 times now.
Of course, you get that type of person everywhere. But I've heard it from so many good artists too. Teachers who are a decade behind the digital scene, teachers who just aren't good enough in their specialty, teachers who don't care, apathetic pacing and structure in general, admission of people who aren't the least bit serious yet still get good grades (not barely passing, but good) with trash work, etc etc. This would be all well and good if the tuition fees weren't so high (and always rising of course).
I can understand it if art was a "mafia" type of education like law, or medicine, where your diploma opens a door to a professional world that would otherwise be legally closed to you, but it isn't. At this point it's even optional and you can get the same bang for your buck with self-education.
People say it was worth it because it was an "experience" and they networked, but there are people going into serious debt for college educations that cost far more than they're worth. Just because you don't regret it doesn't make it a good deal. It's a rip-off, and it's a rip-off which is coming to characterize all college level education in the states.
(For reference, you can get a top shelf medical education in Europe for under 100k over 6 years, and a medical degree is far more precious than an art degree, both upon graduation, and over a lifetime.)
Although I had the same idea as Robat going in, that I just needed time for uninterrupted practice. Sure sucks to spend 50k on stuff I already knew and just hear people talk about how good they are yet never deliver.
It's the best business ever though, because no one will ever tell anyone to quit school.
I totally get it though, I wanted the Autocon experience and would probably have the same views had I gone to a better school. But man it can get bad, I can only imagine how many young people are lost or fucked over because of my school.
Nice story but the numbers are going up here... 40K, 80K, now 100K... did your course really cost that much Auto?
I assure you, if all you're looking for is 4 years of uninterupted practice, there's far cheaper ways of getting that outside of a university.
Nowadays, people really need to take a good, hard look at university as an investment. Asking the simple question, "Do I need a degree to be in this field?" first and foremost. If it's medicine, law, engineering and the like then it's a no-brainer. Buckle down, go to the best school you can, get the best grades you can, and things will undoubtedly work out for you in the future.
But a liberal arts degree? It's a waste. Especially in this day and age. The people telling you otherwise are either ones from a different generation or they're the very institutes looking to sell you one.
If you do not have the personal drive to work at it, to practice, to seek out ways of improving no college is going to instill that in you. If you do, then you already have what you need. The internet alone is a wealth of knowledge and resources that I would have loved to have access to during my college years (fuck, that's a depressing thought). And it's essentially free. There are hundreds of online communities where you can make more meaningful connections than you could in college, get more relevant constructive criticism, be more in touch with what's happening right now in the game industry (hint, you're on one).
So yeah, I have no doubt that you learned something on your 4 years of college, that you got better. But did you really get better than you would through 4 years of independant study and taking individual classes? Not to belittle your accomplishments, but sounds to me like you were motivated and dedicated enough to succeed in spite of college, not because of it.
But I learned everything I needed and more than the college would teach me on my own. I can make a game single handedly, story, physics, graphics (reason why I am here is to get better with graphics).
With the Internet existing and all, colleges and schools need to beef up on what their teaching.
I have a friend who's in the game development course, it covers how to make basic models (hideous things) how to animate a model, how to move it, basic physics and he has yet to even scratch deferred rendering, custom controllers, working with raw graphics API (like D3D), complex AI, self correcting path finding, etc.
It seems the internet allows for faster learning than college in Game development, and I'm willing to bet there are other subjects that act similarly.
The phrase 'liberal arts' is a big umbrella, and it covers a whole shitload of fields that you won't have an easy time starting a career in without a degree. Psychology, PoliSci, lots of maths, journalism, life sciences, etc.
About the only fields in which degrees are a 'waste', IMO, would be purely creative ones - some visual arts, music, creative writing, performing art. I work at an ad agency with about 50 designers (graphic or interactive), and I'd guess maybe 80% of them have degrees. You can get hired in without one, but not without a solid work history or something to make up for the lack of education.
If you were looking at a degree in psychology or math for career prospects, I think the first question of "Do I need this to get a job?" would cover you before you reached the point where I say it's a waste. Those people have already tuned out. If not, then let me add "Why are you still here getting insulted about your liberal arts degree. You should be off studying damnit! Can't you read?!?"