Dealing with uninspired, unwilling, and untalented individuals
polycounter lvl 17
So this issue has come up for myself and a few other colleagues recently. I like a few others here (i suppose) are currently at university getting a degree in the game-art field. Although the university sucks (too late to quit), the one good thing is i feel motivated because my major has its own private computer lab to work on our things. now originally it was meant to be an "honors" lab, for those who would work and not cause disturbances by spending 8 hours a day on 4chan or youtube.
well here's the issue. out of the 20 (ballparking) people who actively use the lab, only 5 others aside from myself actually use it for work. the rest are CONSTANTLY playing League of Legends, Minecraft, or just messing around on youtube. When it comes time for them to show work, because eventually they have to, i get embarrassed for them. knowing that generally they have the exact same training and disciplines i do, their work should be at the same level. there is a guy in his 1st year who is better than about 10 people in their 4th.
im just wondering if other people have run into some sort of circumstance like this, where you come across people who are "trying" to get into the industry, but basically dont give a shit enough to put forth any effort expecting that a job will just come naturally. i know that i should just say "well thats less competition for getting a job, but just generally being around these people puts a damper on my willingness to work, because there is always a distraction from the constant yelling of "OH MY GOD THEY ARE GANKING! FORTIFY! USE YOUR ULT!" and so on.
just wanted other peoples opinions on this, and if anyone has any non-murderous methods to coping with idiocy, id like to know.
well here's the issue. out of the 20 (ballparking) people who actively use the lab, only 5 others aside from myself actually use it for work. the rest are CONSTANTLY playing League of Legends, Minecraft, or just messing around on youtube. When it comes time for them to show work, because eventually they have to, i get embarrassed for them. knowing that generally they have the exact same training and disciplines i do, their work should be at the same level. there is a guy in his 1st year who is better than about 10 people in their 4th.
im just wondering if other people have run into some sort of circumstance like this, where you come across people who are "trying" to get into the industry, but basically dont give a shit enough to put forth any effort expecting that a job will just come naturally. i know that i should just say "well thats less competition for getting a job, but just generally being around these people puts a damper on my willingness to work, because there is always a distraction from the constant yelling of "OH MY GOD THEY ARE GANKING! FORTIFY! USE YOUR ULT!" and so on.
just wanted other peoples opinions on this, and if anyone has any non-murderous methods to coping with idiocy, id like to know.
Replies
I sympathise though man, nothing worse than trying to concentrate in Uni labs while a bunch of muppets whoop it up on youtube.....they so funny
http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/shop_online/headphones/audio_headphones/around_ear_headphones/index.jsp
@eric: yeah i know i will laugh, but im wondering if i should actually take it to the point of calling them all out on it. next week we have to submit our portfolios which needs to be near 40% done.. and there are guys who arent even 5%.
@cox: i do. originally i did associate with the procrastinators, until we got into the more serious classes that required us to work together. there was actually 1 instance where one guy got up and sort of looked like he was going to hit me because i basically told him he hadnt done anything to show that he was anywhere near being an amateur artist, and he said he wanted to model the characters for our game. but now i sit in a corner with the good artists.
Granted, I never went to school. If I was in that situation, I would make friends with the 5 that do work and sit next to them whenever I'm in lab. Pluses if they're better than me, since working next to someone like that always boosts my productivity and quality bar higher
You're basically talking shit on other people while, at the same time, boasting about yourself.
Live and let live. Learn to ignore. Worry about your own work. Headphones. etc. etc.
school so i can make games" I just tell them, the company doesn't usually give a shit what school you went to, its the portfolio, and no school i know of makes portfolios for their students.
But yeah its really hard to stay focused when theres a group of 10 people right beside you laughing at lol cat videos. Or when they ask you the same things instructors have JUST explained because they were checking their fucking facebook! sorry for that rant, i just definitely know what your going through. Like people have said, good set of headphones, what i did as well was stay after class, most of those people left as soon as they were "allowed" like high-schoolers or something.
Not to sound like an old timey grandpa, but i really feel this shows just how entitled our generation thinks they are. Don't get me wrong theres a lot of hardworking kids now a days(a lot on PC), sometimes i just shake my head when i see people our age though.
We currently are about 10+ in the class, and it's actually sickening on how lazy some people are.
We have 3 semesters in total (onto the final big stretch) and apart from me and one other guy, who not only knew the Uni/College would suck in terms of freelance teachers, but that we constantly need learn by ourselves if we want to be ahead of the curve, the others guys don't give a toss about anything, they try, but they don't seem to want to learn anything other then 'let me work on something while the teacher is in class explaining something, and then it comes to bite me back in my arse'.
What's even more perplexing is how a group of guys are working on an IPhone game using the UDK engine have actually ripped out the assets from Eat3D tutorials and a few others from games available at the UDK site, and even copied the kismet without consideration, and plan on selling the game. Needless to say, the whistle will be blown when the time comes, but it's sad to see they actually think they can EVEN get a job like this when they don't have a portfolio.
So I understand where you come from, my advice? Act like Dr. House...no honestly, I'm serious, just think of it this way, you could one day even open up your studio or become a head developer of another studio, creating small budget indie-esque games while these guys will be serving cheese burgers to some obese man who looks like they black-market truffles with their flabs.
It really is sad that people expect to be handed jobs just because they're going to school for something. I know people who are supposed to graduate soon, and I have never seen them work on anything. How the hell does that work.
that actually sounds like a really good idea. lol.
yeah. i kno a few people who have done somewhat of the same thing as well... but they have sold the game.
Yeah, I know where you're coming from. You're going to see this in any school, and any major. Just don't let your passion turn you into a bitter person who talks down on others. It's not a flattering mask to wear.
I was at school every day it was open, 12+ hours a day, for 4 years. I skipped the labs altogether, and ended up doing my work in classrooms of teachers I knew. I would sit in the back, alone, with my headphones on, and do my work. I never disturbed anyone and was always respectful of the class in progress. The labs were often full of facebook/myspace addicts, loud music, and lots of talking. It can get bothersome, but you need to find a way around it.
Aye, AiP always did, and still does, have the core handful of motivated students. They typically migrate towards each other and keep each other motivated. \m/
haha! sounds like lunch break over here. lol is a cult...6 months clean, thank god.
College is the first real filter you need to deal with heading into your professional career. I'd expect there to be a massive drop-off, but the fact that the lab is being used for gaming is an issue. It sucks to have to be the whiner that ruins everyones fun, but id talk to the dept head about limiting gaming in the lab. You're paying them for the work environment and you're entitled to that. If those kids want to burn their tuition, let them do it at home.
This is Madness!
:thumbup::):thumbup:
It's unfortunate that you have to deal with this at school. Just do like others have said. Surround yourself with motivated people and do the best you can. When it comes to team projects make sure the team leader and instructors have a list of who is responsible for what.
It's an even bigger tragedy when you have to deal with this in a professional environment. Luckily, for the last few years I haven't had to deal with this.
hahah, that sounds like lunchtime at the office
a million times this! It makes amazing things happen.
yeah, we just got through that situation not too long ago. where our project team of 9 was cut down to 6 because 3 of them were doing nothing.. and now they are doing nothing on their own.
generally i think the ONLY way these people can snap out of the habit of not doing anything is to fail a class. which none of them have. how is this possible? you ask. well its simple. the teacher that passes them is a guy who doesnt know his ass from his elbow when it comes to standard industry quality work, and he just decides to pass crap. it wasnt until about a year ago that we got a new instructor who actually failed about 5 students for having bad work.. causing them to stay an extra 11 weeks until they graduate. if these guys fail.. which, lets face it.. they need to, hopefully that will be a wakeup call to them
It was like I'd go in the beginning and it would just be a bunch of idiot anime nerds yelling about shit and I'm like
"Why am I here right now? I could be getting so much more done at home"
So then I stopped going and started working on my final project (a 10'' Maquette) in my free time.
Just two weeks ago I showed up to get some feedback and everyone there just keeps coming over and going "NERGGAZMS OMG HOW DO YOU DO THAT?"
Im like "By getting work done that's how, so fuck off and let me do that".
The only valid argument I've heard, from previous conversations about this, is that students who are looking for an honest critique from an instructor, are often times not given the amount of time they would like, because the instructor is busy listening to excuses, or critiquing the living hell out of some half-assed work that the other student obviously didn't put any love into.
I understand your frustration, but make sure you explore more productive options for dealing with it than posting on polycount!
Unlike most people and teachers I ALWAYS tried to give the most honest feedback I could in class when people would present there stuff. I would base the way I critiqued peoples work by the industry standards people need to hit to get a job as I would always hold myself to that standard.
This of course didnt go over well with everyone as some people cant take honest feedback letting them know, hey you slacked off playing video games and your work needs a lot to make it better. Most people just wanted to hear "oh it looks cool" "I like this and this". Even teachers gave feedback like that to people which I HATED. Eventually they started to realize that there were talented individuals not just slacking off and giving honest critiques in class and they started to follow suit which is awesome. Try and give honest feedback without being a dick though, hard line to walk and I definatly stepped over it a few times.
One thing I realized was that critiquing others work helped me see flaws in my own work and areas I could improve. It also helped some people as they used the advice I and others gave them to try and make there work better. Of course most didnt listen, didnt care and didnt do anything else but there all doing nothing with there lives now so its there tough luck.
Who knows what might happen, they might change for the better, and then all you guys go out and make a little studio.
The studio goes under and all you guys enter hiatus... This is when you start making the best art ever man, learn techniques that no one knows and get hired instantly! At work you're constantly getting fondled, by hot babes, while you complete 126 models a day for the biggest upcoming AAA title.
My conclusion so far is "talk to them for a bit, try to explain" if they don't listen - avoid them. If they inhibit you work talk to your teachers to see if they can at least separate the classroom space between those who give a shit and those who don't. Uninspired people are not worth wasting much time on.
And keep a positive attitude:)
cheers!
also, when they show their half assed folio in a week or two, that is only 5% instead of 40.... call em on it! rip it apart saying its shit for how much time we`ve had. if they get defensive, call them on all the game playing. its bitchy, but surprizingly fun.... lol do it!
or, you could just send an email to your department head and tell them whats going on. They`ll take care of the issue.
this was discussed last night between myself and a few other colleagues. we actually wondered if the school would be able to block the exe or the port that they connect to thru the game. since yesterday was basically the straw that broke the camels back (we all had to leave because of the disruptions), i had wondered whether or not taking that sort of "tattle-tale" action would be something i should do or not. but generally i guess that seems like its the only option left at this point. since i wont see them again until tuesday when we have to present in class.. ill try that method of talking to them rationally and explaining/critiquing to them to see if maybe it helps their work-ethic. if not then i guess i do have no other choice than to go to the dean/dept head.
also just want to say sry if this thread is bothering people, but generally there arent too many people i can turn to in a situation like this that would actually have some good feedback other than you fine people.
yes you just described 80% of the game companies i have ever worked for. i have no idea how some of the people i have worked with even got a job, well i know one kid stole the majority of his portfolio from the last place he interned at, but he weaseled his way into a producer role by kissing enough ass.
Don't let it get to you, all of those kids (in my case) somehow graduated, and are now working in grocery stores/fast food/etc...
You get from school what you put into it.
Personally, I didn't mind, because contrary to what some are saying, the Instructors at my school didn't bother to help those students unless they directly asked for it..which meant I got much more face time with them.
One thing that really sucked though was the lack of competition. I don't mean that like I'm trying to boast about my skill or anything like that, but competition with students/people can really push you and your work to a higher level. I ended up filling the void by posting work and participating at CGSociety (and eventually here on Polycount).
true.
i agree also. i have a pretty decent computer at home.. better than at school in fact, but i live about 30-40 minutes away and i figure if i need to be here for a class, i may as well stay most of the day. but yeah, i guess that is the only solution is to just ignore them as best as possible.
thx everyone for all the advice n whatnot. this thread doesnt really need to go any further.
This right here perfectly describes what is wrong with games 'design' sources and the students in them.
Every week the back third of the class would be full of games students not giving a fuck. It was embarrassing how many of the game students talked loudly to each other over the lecturer, threw things around the room constantly, walk in half an hour late etc.
Everyone complained that the lecturer wasn't teaching to our course, and as student rep I brought it up to him in the next meeting. Two lectures later and its clear he is trying to gear the lesson towards the games students. 'How does the lighting and composition of this scene guide the player?' 'what are some of the intended messages in this poster advertisement? who is the publisher trying to appeal to?' Bad idea.
I was so fucking embarrassed. after making a point to ask him to do this, the moment he mentioned a games title someone would yell out a meme or some stupid fucking joke and about ten people would start talking over each other to spew the most internet jokes as physically possible. He couldn't get a word in over some fat neck beard who failed the year yelling 'COD IS FOR DUMB AMERICANS WHO LOVE GUNS TOO MUCH HURR HURR'.
Basically, that class was everything you here about dumbass apathetic games design students rolled into a big ball of the worst things about gamer culture. I couldn't fcuking believe it.
I think its just a case of making the best out of the bad situation, you're paying to be at Uni, aslong as the work is done, and its done well, you should be okay.
I really feel for everyone in these situations because it really takes its toll after a while. I did as Sean said, brought a kickass computer and have literally huddled up working for the past year or so, choosing to work in near solitude (other than my 3 housemates). It was just the best option given the working parameters.
A number of the teachers didn't care about helping 90% of students. I got to be good friends with a few instructors who all did great work, and what they told me were, the ones that tried they knew it, and they'd help them as much as they could. The ones that slack and don't care. The school has their hands tied basically so they only focus real energy on the ones that want to learn. The rest of the time, they'll work on their own portfolios.
Of course this doesn't speak for every instructor. One of the instructors I was friends with constantly battled the school to fail students which eventually led to his termination. Good guy, but he's got better work now